Cityline Switches To Every 15 Minutes In Rush Hour :(

[michaeltheR]

We confused as to why the Cityline which used to run every 12 minutes during rush hour now switched to every 15 minutes. I can already imagine how full the trains are going to be and the fact that many passengers who cannot get into trains becuase too full.

And then you have the red trains running empty.

Makes no sense to me.

[teatree]

I could spen all day writing about the stupidity of the running of the ARL.

I have been on absolutely packed cityline trains that had to wait at Hua Mak station for several monutes in order to let 2 empty Express trains through.

And the 'Empty Express' has 4 carriages yet the busy Cityline has 3.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[metisdead]

Moved to Bangkok forum for better coverage.

[michaeltheR]

I could spen all day writing about the stupidity of the running of the ARL.

I have been on absolutely packed cityline trains that had to wait at Hua Mak station for several monutes in order to let 2 empty Express trains through.

And the 'Empty Express' has 4 carriages yet the busy Cityline has 3.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

I know that station. Last month they started using the red Airport links to reenforce the packed blue lines however now it has turned into the worse. no more red trains and longer waiting periods. I wonder why nobody is complaining to the authorities

[allane]

Perhaps they think that making the service less frequent on the blue line will "encourage" some people to use the red line !

[Lakegeneve]

Moved to Bangkok forum for better coverage.

Actually, this might be bettor off in the Airport forum given that there is a long standing thread on the ARL & Cityline with answers as to why services are limited, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/369458-airport-rail-link-again-sorry/page__st__300 (read back a few pages)

In essence, there is not enough rolling stock for the way the ARL is configured (5 Cityline trains and 4 Express trains) and pax rates are much higher than was anticipated. (There is also a related spare parts issue which has impacted upon available rolling stock). If you don't have enough trains it impacts frequency.

The SRT is ordering 7 more Cityline sets (4 cars) of rolling stock which are planned to be in service by 2014. Until then, it is sardines during peak but is that any different to the BTS and MRT???.

It is the same problem with the BTS & MRT as they have not pruchased enough rolling stock reflecting pax growth. Frankly, the seperated, unintegrated, private concessionaire model stinks as the operators never have enough cash - due to debt - to purchase rolling stock to keep apace with pax growth.

[teatree]

Moved to Bangkok forum for better coverage.

Actually, this might be bettor off in the Airport forum given that there is a long standing thread on the ARL & Cityline with answers as to why services are limited, http://www.thaivisa....y/page__st__300 (read back a few pages)

In essence, there is not enough rolling stock for the way the ARL is configured (5 Cityline trains and 4 Express trains) and pax rates are much higher than was anticipated. (There is also a related spare parts issue which has impacted upon available rolling stock). If you don't have enough trains it impacts frequency.

The SRT is ordering 7 more Cityline sets (4 cars) of rolling stock which are planned to be in service by 2014. Until then, it is sardines during peak but is that any different to the BTS and MRT???.

It is the same problem with the BTS & MRT as they have not pruchased enough rolling stock reflecting pax growth. Frankly, the seperated, unintegrated, private concessionaire model stinks as the operators never have enough cash - due to debt - to purchase rolling stock to keep apace with pax growth.

The difference is that on the BTS you can always take the next train a few minutes later, whereas on the APL you may have to wait 20 minutes for the NEXT train to appear which may well be totally full and unable to take any new passengers as will the next one and maybe the one after that too.

If you are unlucky you could easily find yourself waiting for 1-1.30 hours on a platform in what resembles a giant cow shed with very little ventilation in a tropical country. Yet all the while a number of express trains (with an extra carriage of course) will shoot past almost entirely (and sometimes actually!) empty.

As I said.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[billd766]

Moved to Bangkok forum for better coverage.

Actually, this might be bettor off in the Airport forum given that there is a long standing thread on the ARL & Cityline with answers as to why services are limited, http://www.thaivisa....y/page__st__300 (read back a few pages)

In essence, there is not enough rolling stock for the way the ARL is configured (5 Cityline trains and 4 Express trains) and pax rates are much higher than was anticipated. (There is also a related spare parts issue which has impacted upon available rolling stock). If you don't have enough trains it impacts frequency.

The SRT is ordering 7 more Cityline sets (4 cars) of rolling stock which are planned to be in service by 2014. Until then, it is sardines during peak but is that any different to the BTS and MRT???.

It is the same problem with the BTS & MRT as they have not pruchased enough rolling stock reflecting pax growth. Frankly, the seperated, unintegrated, private concessionaire model stinks as the operators never have enough cash - due to debt - to purchase rolling stock to keep apace with pax growth.

The alternative of course would be to get the SRT to take over and then think how much of a shambles that would be.

[Lakegeneve]

Moved to Bangkok forum for better coverage.

Actually, this might be bettor off in the Airport forum given that there is a long standing thread on the ARL & Cityline with answers as to why services are limited, http://www.thaivisa....y/page__st__300 (read back a few pages)

In essence, there is not enough rolling stock for the way the ARL is configured (5 Cityline trains and 4 Express trains) and pax rates are much higher than was anticipated. (There is also a related spare parts issue which has impacted upon available rolling stock). If you don't have enough trains it impacts frequency.

The SRT is ordering 7 more Cityline sets (4 cars) of rolling stock which are planned to be in service by 2014. Until then, it is sardines during peak but is that any different to the BTS and MRT???.

It is the same problem with the BTS & MRT as they have not pruchased enough rolling stock reflecting pax growth. Frankly, the seperated, unintegrated, private concessionaire model stinks as the operators never have enough cash - due to debt - to purchase rolling stock to keep apace with pax growth.

The difference is that on the BTS you can always take the next train a few minutes later, whereas on the APL you may have to wait 20 minutes for the NEXT train to appear which may well be totally full and unable to take any new passengers as will the next one and maybe the one after that too.

If you are unlucky you could easily find yourself waiting for 1-1.30 hours on a platform in what resembles a giant cow shed with very little ventilation in a tropical country. Yet all the while a number of express trains (with an extra carriage of course) will shoot past almost entirely (and sometimes actually!) empty.

As I said.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Stupidity is perhaps making grossly, unrealistic statements without any factual, critical analysis based on reality. Thai politicians are usually very good at such.

There are a wealth of issues regarding the operations of the ARL by the SRTET and some design limitations that are not very wise. In the context of how mass transit has been implemented in Bangkok and how the SRT is run that should come as little surprise to most informed observers and the long suffering public transport passenger.

However, that context does not negate the fact that taking a Cityline train is still preferable to a bus or better than driving for most pax, and that the service provides cheap, quick commuter transit for the eastern suburbs residents. Some problems are being slowly and belatedly addressed (eg. the MRT pedestrian link and extra escalators) whilst others will take longer (eg. extra rolling stock).

What you have written is patently stupid. Firstly, virtually no one is currently unable to board a Cityline train during peak - for the very few that do they are first in line for the next train. (Unlike the BTS previously - b4 4 carriages - and unlike the MRT currently where it is quite common. During the heaviest volume of peak period with the MRT people might wait for the 3rd train. Currently, on the BTS the 2nd, if that). Do also remember that the Cityline is a commuter line and NOT a metro! As it grows in pax numbers and subsequent rolling stock (designed for eventual 10 car ops) it will never run at a headway less than around 6-8 mins.

Are the trains bursting at the seams during peak period, yes but pretty much everyone manages to squeeze onboard. (Okay, there might be that really big, fat guy who can't squeeze on). Boarding at Ramkhamhaeng station city bound can be a problem at times in the morning peak but a few pax also disembark here. One of the obvious problems during high demand peak is airport pax with large luggage taking extra space.

To suggest that anyone would be waiting 1-1.5 hrs for the Cityline due to overcrowding is patently absurd and belies any relevance to reality. If in the unlikely scenario one can't board, you are first in line for the next service either 15 or 20mins away.

Prior to Nov, the Cityline was taking on ave around 44-45k pax per day. After, Nov that dropped a few thousand a day to around 40K. Thus, for the last few months overcrowding as eased slightly. Which is still not to say that it is not crowded at peak times. Pax numbers should slowly increase during the coming year back to above previous levels.

Be critical where it is warranted but the criticism needs to be based on a semblance of reality. Clearly, given your "stupid, stupid, stupid" disposition against the ARL, you'll enjoy taking a bus during peak and being stuck in slow moving traffic.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Lakegeneve

[SamSipEt]

One of the obvious problems during high demand peak is airport pax with large luggage taking extra space.

Errrrr ?

Isn't it the Airport - City link

[p_brownstone]

I simply cannot understand why the Express Line has been allowed to continue for so long.

It's vastly underutilised and causes scheduling problems with the City Line so that Service has a limited amount of possible runs per hour.

I can't see why they can not discontinue the Express Service and use the rolling stock to increase the frequency of the City Line service - they would probably find an increase in usage of that Service when the overcrowding issue is solved in this way too.

Patrick

[CWMcMurray]

Have to agree with Patrick on this one...

If the city line is full and the express line is empty... Not really rocket science to see that it makes sense to pull some if the cars from express train and add them to rolling stock of city line

Even if not wanting to cancel express train... Why not run 3 empty cars on the express train and add an extra car to each of the city lines

Is there some reason that having 4 or 5 empty cars on the express train is necessary ?

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Lakegeneve]

Have to agree with Patrick on this one...

If the city line is full and the express line is empty... Not really rocket science to see that it makes sense to pull some if the cars from express train and add them to rolling stock of city line

Even if not wanting to cancel express train... Why not run 3 empty cars on the express train and add an extra car to each of the city lines

Is there some reason that having 4 or 5 empty cars on the express train is necessary ?

Yes, plenty of sensible ideas and a few issues to deal with. It might be worth reading thru the ARL thread linked above as much info is there which would probably answer your good queries.

1) Rolling Stock: the SRT purchased 5, 3 car Cityline sets and 4, 4 car Express sets. That is the current rolling stock until the extra 7 sets mentioned above are delivered. The rolling stock is configured very differently with the Express having the extra carriage for baggage only - no seats and pax cannot enter that 4th carriage. Seating is also very different with the Express configured with full seating in each carriage and some baggage storage. The Express sets would have cost more due to the different interior.

It is not just a matter of taking one car from an Express and adding it to a Cityline set to make it 4 cars. That does not mean that it can't be done with the correct modifications.

2) Running Express sets as Cityline: the SRTET has been using Express sets at various times when Cityline rolling stock has been unavailable due to spare part shortages. At one point 15 or so months ago, 3 Cityline sets were unavailable. Thus, Express rolling stock was used for a period to run some Cityline services.

The spare parts issue has had a major impact of rolling stock availability. Part of it is the fault of the SRTET which didn't keep sufficient inventory and part of it manufacturers such as with some axles made in China which reportedly were of poor quality.

In fact, as I understand it - though I have yet to see it - it has been reported that at least 1 Express set is currently running as a Cityline service during morning and evening peak.

3) The original concept: it is important to remember that the ARL is essentially conceived as an Express airport link with a commuter (suburban) line. The line was built based on the Express service and the systems and operational plan from the outset was based on that. The commuter line was always intended to provide a link for the eastern suburbs AND a link to the airport for airport workers. (Just see the collapse in BMTA bus pax after workers switched to the Cityline).

It was always intended to be extended to DMK. It is very important to remember that the Cityline IS NOT A METRO! It will never have a metro style frequency.

4) The consequences of past decisions: Were many faulty assumptions made in the original operational plan? Patently, yes. Such have been highlighted and discussed ad nauseum - take 10 mins to read thru the whole of the ARL thread, linked above. One obvious one is that the dysfunctional, grossly unfunded and poorly managed SRT did not and still does not really know how to run the line. (A new CEO for the SRTET is being appointed soon).

A whole range of structural and organisational issues along with govt decisions prior to the building of the line, have resulted in many of the current problems (not really the space here to go into it but ask on the other thread if you are really interested). A relevant one for this thread is that 2-3 extra sets of rolling stock should have been ordered with the original 9 but you can thank the then govt for that one as they did not provide sufficient funding after they first delayed the tendering of the line for 2 yrs thinking it would not be needed.

Did the original plan greatly overestimate the number of Express pax and underestimate that many airport pax would instead take the Cityline? Yes. The Cityline has been much more popular than expected - that should be a good thing, should it not?

Now one can't just take a magic wand a resolve some embedded limitations especially in an organisational and cultural context where creative thinking 'outside the box' isn't a strong point. Anymore, than one can make those extra trains on order suddenly appear. It takes longer than it should to change and resolve some issues as we see with many other issues (the delayed MRT pedestrian link, the extra escalators at stations etc) - think of all the problems at the new airport from toilets to seats to cracked runways and how long they all took to rectify.

And this is not unique to the ARL as the BTS and MRT which have experiended many of the the same mistakes esp on the rolling stock front as they have not had the money to purchase new trains when needed. (In fact my main issue is that the whole model of different private concessionaires is fundamentally flawed. BKK needs an single government, integrated agency running all metro lines and public transport with a single ticketing platform! But that won't happen.)

The Cityline first started with a 15 min all day headway. It then introduced an offpeak headway at 20 and a 12 min peak. We are back to a 15 min peak. Of course pax numbers have risen from ave. 28-33k a day to now over ave. 40K a day after dropping a few thousand when Air Asia moved to DMK. Some busy days it does over 45K. (It coped with 52K on the day of the Lady Gaga concert). They will probably be in 45K mark by mid year.

Those numbers will keep rising even while it is overcrowded as they have with the BTS and MRT. The obvious reason why is that it is still much quicker and generally more convenient than being stuck in traffic. (And as we have seen around the world overcrowding of metro and suburban lines is not unique to BKK as pax numbers have significantly increased in many places).

[Lakegeneve]

One of the obvious problems during high demand peak is airport pax with large luggage taking extra space.

Errrrr ?

Isn't it the Airport - City link

Errrr, not really.

See some of the above. The Cityline trains are not designed for carrying large luggage anymore than Piccadilly line trains in London are. In fact there is actually a SRTET sign stating that large luggage is prohibited on the Cityline but it isn't, and cannot really be, enforced.

Of course, it doesn't matter most of the time but in peak if you have 4 people all with large luggage it can take up the space of about 10 people. Multiply that a number of times and it can make a significant diff.

[drronnie]

well its is even more fun now that they switched their frequency every 20 minutes even in rush hour times. LOL!

[teatree]

Moved to Bangkok forum for better coverage.

Actually, this might be bettor off in the Airport forum given that there is a long standing thread on the ARL & Cityline with answers as to why services are limited, http://www.thaivisa....y/page__st__300 (read back a few pages)

In essence, there is not enough rolling stock for the way the ARL is configured (5 Cityline trains and 4 Express trains) and pax rates are much higher than was anticipated. (There is also a related spare parts issue which has impacted upon available rolling stock). If you don't have enough trains it impacts frequency.

The SRT is ordering 7 more Cityline sets (4 cars) of rolling stock which are planned to be in service by 2014. Until then, it is sardines during peak but is that any different to the BTS and MRT???.

It is the same problem with the BTS & MRT as they have not pruchased enough rolling stock reflecting pax growth. Frankly, the seperated, unintegrated, private concessionaire model stinks as the operators never have enough cash - due to debt - to purchase rolling stock to keep apace with pax growth.

The difference is that on the BTS you can always take the next train a few minutes later, whereas on the APL you may have to wait 20 minutes for the NEXT train to appear which may well be totally full and unable to take any new passengers as will the next one and maybe the one after that too.

If you are unlucky you could easily find yourself waiting for 1-1.30 hours on a platform in what resembles a giant cow shed with very little ventilation in a tropical country. Yet all the while a number of express trains (with an extra carriage of course) will shoot past almost entirely (and sometimes actually!) empty.

As I said.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Stupidity is perhaps making grossly, unrealistic statements without any factual, critical analysis based on reality. Thai politicians are usually very good at such.

There are a wealth of issues regarding the operations of the ARL by the SRTET and some design limitations that are not very wise. In the context of how mass transit has been implemented in Bangkok and how the SRT is run that should come as little surprise to most informed observers and the long suffering public transport passenger.

However, that context does not negate the fact that taking a Cityline train is still preferable to a bus or better than driving for most pax, and that the service provides cheap, quick commuter transit for the eastern suburbs residents. Some problems are being slowly and belatedly addressed (eg. the MRT pedestrian link and extra escalators) whilst others will take longer (eg. extra rolling stock).

What you have written is patently stupid. Firstly, virtually no one is currently unable to board a Cityline train during peak - for the very few that do they are first in line for the next train. (Unlike the BTS previously - b4 4 carriages - and unlike the MRT currently where it is quite common. During the heaviest volume of peak period with the MRT people might wait for the 3rd train. Currently, on the BTS the 2nd, if that). Do also remember that the Cityline is a commuter line and NOT a metro! As it grows in pax numbers and subsequent rolling stock (designed for eventual 10 car ops) it will never run at a headway less than around 6-8 mins.

Are the trains bursting at the seams during peak period, yes but pretty much everyone manages to squeeze onboard. (Okay, there might be that really big, fat guy who can't squeeze on). Boarding at Ramkhamhaeng station city bound can be a problem at times in the morning peak but a few pax also disembark here. One of the obvious problems during high demand peak is airport pax with large luggage taking extra space.

To suggest that anyone would be waiting 1-1.5 hrs for the Cityline due to overcrowding is patently absurd and belies any relevance to reality. If in the unlikely scenario one can't board, you are first in line for the next service either 15 or 20mins away.

Prior to Nov, the Cityline was taking on ave around 44-45k pax per day. After, Nov that dropped a few thousand a day to around 40K. Thus, for the last few months overcrowding as eased slightly. Which is still not to say that it is not crowded at peak times. Pax numbers should slowly increase during the coming year back to above previous levels.

Be critical where it is warranted but the criticism needs to be based on a semblance of reality. Clearly, given your "stupid, stupid, stupid" disposition against the ARL, you'll enjoy taking a bus during peak and being stuck in slow moving traffic.

You do seem to have a good knowledge of the ARL but how could you possibly know the performance of every single train?

I have personally seen on one occasion a wait of an hour and my GF a wait of 1.5 hours after unknown problems caused utter chaos with train after train arriving at the station full, while at the same time the express rolling past empty. My GF and many others had to get their tickets revalidated as they had expired, as they do after 90 mins.

Just because you didn't experience it yourself or read about it in the newspaper, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Since these events happened, thankfully, the express trains have been used to run extra services when there is a problem, and this does help to alleviate the problem.

As for your final point about taking the bus, I'll say no thanks. I will keep using the ARL but will be reminded everytime I use it of the STUPID, STUPID, STUPID design and management of the syatem.

P.S.

Just yesterday my GF had to wait for 3 trains at makkasan station before giving up and catching the train to Phaya Thai and staying on for its return trip to the airport. I wonder, do you actually ever use the ARL at peak times? Doesn't seem like it.

Edited July 3, 2013 by teatree