F1 2013

[rixalex]

Second point, "best car on the grid in the history of F1" is complete nonsense. Where on earth have you plucked that nugget from? I can think of lots of cars from different seasons that were much better in their respective eras and that were much better than the cars they were racing against, than the McClaren was in 2007.

If it was "the best car on the grid in the history of F1", certainly doesn't say much for Alonso does it...

That was not my intent and I suspect despite your overbearing sarcasm you know that.

What I mean't was, Hamilton's intro to F1 was unprecedented with the most preparation and with the (at the time) best car on the grid. This F1 opportunity has been unrivalled in the history of F1 and I stand by that.

All F1 'greats' without exception have started in a lesser car and worked their way up the grid to a top car.

You of course are welcome to disagree but the sarcasm is uncalled for, my opinion is as valid as yours

I haven't intentionally misread anything you wrote. You stated "the best car on the grid in the history of F1", and i took it that that is what you meant. Now it seems you didn't actually mean that, you meant something along the lines of "the best car on the grid at that time". Big difference, and i have no idea how i am supposed to have known you meant something different from what you wrote.

Moving on... with regards Hamilton's "unprecedented preparation", as i say, plenty of drivers get groomed for the life of being a driver from a very young age, whether it be thanks to rich family connections, or whether it be thanks to being taken under the wing of a team that sees long term potential in them. There was nothing unprecedented in Hamilton's preparation, what was unprecedented was that rather than ending up just another driver who didn't quite make it, he lived up to his potential, showed the team that he was good enough and that he was ready, and thanks to that got what was as you say, a very good seat at the time. He then went on to prove that the team were right in believing in him, were right to give him that great opportunity, by racing alongside a two times world champion and holding his own... and very nearly winning the title.

[rixalex]

Ah right, so we'll see you dispense with the childish moustache comments then ?

I think it was his eyebrows actually that i commented on and that you valiantly defended, although i agree the moustache looked daft too.

Not being an avid follower of social media doesn't preclude one from making some more light-hearted comments from time to time.

[rixalex]

rixalex.

I guess you misunderstood my meaning concerning the comment I made about Seb and Marks spat, that occasion in my opinion when they raced was the best, most competitive piece of racing in that whole charade, 4 drivers and only Mark thought team orders were acceptable, certainly Lewis to his credit didn't and Nico was well peeved about it but the point intended was that Seb is a better racer than many give him credit for and that was only once instance of his skill because Mark gave no quarter and our relevant stances on team orders are a personal thing that has had the life flogged out of it, you agree and I don't.

Actually that last bit isn't quite accurate David. I don't agree with team orders and i was against the FIA making them legal. Indeed i argued on here against a number of people who took the approach that because it was hard to police, they should do away withe rule and just allow it.

The FIA ended up doing just that and here we are with teams orchestrating results. That's a bad thing for F1 in my opinion but that is how things are. So with that accepted, i think that if both drivers agree to stop racing each after a certain point in the race, that is what they should do... and if they don't want to do that, they shouldn't agree in the first place. I appreciate there are times in which a driver is given no choice in the matter and no voice in the discussion, but my understanding of what happened with Mark and Seb is that they both of their own free-will agreed to this idea and understood that in order to win the race, they would have to be ahead of their team mate by point "x".

I accept what you say forms your own opinion about a driver and that you don't listen to tittle tattle/Facebook or any other media outlet but I do read Lewis twitter page and for the record, did you know that when he had a big argument with the team he posted a diagram on his twitter account of the telemetry of his car and only removed it when the team had a go at him and if that is not a show of throwing his toys out of the pram then I don't know what is and by the way that is public knowledge available to any person knowing where to find it and I do not read social gossip only sport related stuff, a bit like you reading/watching BBC that and ones track performance causes me to form an opinion of a driver and yet you have frequently castigated Fernando over articles in the press concerning his alleged prima donna attitudes, an opinion I also share but most of the top drivers are like that.

I did know about that incident of Hamilton posting his telemetry, and commented at the time at what a stupid thing it was to have done. I'm not clear as to exactly why he did it, whether it was out of spite as you suggest, or whether it was out of plain stupidity, either way STUPID!

With regards me "frequently castigating Fernando", i think i castigate all drivers to a degree. I do speak highly of Alonso as well, but yes, i do think he has an ego issue (more than most). Perhaps the comments i make about Alonso stick out of the page more for you because of the obvious high regard you hold him in.

[wackysleet]

rixalex.

As a driver I have a high regard for Fernando and he seems a genuinely nice man to chat to but I would never try to defend the indefensible, for me bad manners and talking down to people in ones team is a definite no go and is something I really hate to hear, civility costs nothing and while I disagree with a lot of views I endeavor to remain polite, with one exception about 3 seasons ago where I did get a bit peeved with a poster and told him so.

What has been a big disappointment to me recently is the lack of posts, good or bad about the actual races, nothing, why? I have tried to stimulate a bit of interest even if it's somewhat controversial in my opinions of drivers/events but perhaps we are all finding the racing boring, I use the term loosely because of the apparent ease Seb appears to be running away with the silverware again this year.

David.

[b19bry]

I haven't intentionally misread anything you wrote. You stated "the best car on the grid in the history of F1", a

Mmm, if you're going to quote me then at least do me the justice of quoting me in full rather than editing the quote to suit your argument, that's an old trick.

What I posted in full was :

"he had easily the most well prepared entry to F1 in the best car on the grid in the history of F1"

Now you can argue your interpretation is valid but there is also another alternative and I accept my english punctuation could have been better. However I still don't feel it calls for the overbearing sarcasm, aggression and belittling tone in your posts

For anyone with more than a passing interest in F1 it's readily recognised the 2007 cars were not among "the best in F1 history"

Moving on... with regards Hamilton's "unprecedented preparation", as i say, plenty of drivers get groomed for the life of being a driver from a very young age, whether it be thanks to rich family connections, or whether it be thanks to being taken under the wing of a team that sees long term potential in them.There was nothing unprecedented in Hamilton's preparation, what was unprecedented was that rather than ending up just another driver who didn't quite make it, he lived up to his potential, showed the team that he was good enough and that he was ready, and thanks to that got what was as you say, a very good seat at the time. He then went on to prove that the team were right in believing in him, were right to give him that great opportunity, by racing alongside a two times world champion and holding his own... and very nearly winning the title.

I know you can't accept my opinion and from previous experience this could drag on and on. I can debate you but this thread is about the 2013 Season. If you'd care to start a 'how good is Hamilton' thread I can take you on, my first post would ask: which other driver of the last 50 years has had such extensive grooming, then been put directly into a leading car for his first F1 season ?

[b19bry]

What has been a big disappointment to me recently is the lack of posts, good or bad about the actual races, nothing, why? I have tried to stimulate a bit of interest even if it's somewhat controversial in my opinions of drivers/events but perhaps we are all finding the racing boring, I use the term loosely because of the apparent ease Seb appears to be running away with the silverware again this year.

David.

Yeah I'd agree and I hope for one you don't give up posting. We appear to have lost a few posters from a year or two back but I enjoy you're posts and you maybe act as the voice of reason here.

Although the WDC is done for this season let's hope there's a couple of decent races left, there's also the movie 'Rush' to look forward too but will it come to BKK ?

[rixalex]

I haven't intentionally misread anything you wrote. You stated "the best car on the grid in the history of F1", a

Mmm, if you're going to quote me then at least do me the justice of quoting me in full rather than editing the quote to suit your argument, that's an old trick.

What I posted in full was :

"he had easily the most well prepared entry to F1 in the best car on the grid in the history of F1"

Now you can argue your interpretation is valid but there is also another alternative and I accept my english punctuation could have been better.

Ah ok. I understand now what you meant. Throw in a comma after the word "grid" and it makes a lot more sense. Believe whatever you wish, but i didn't deliberately try to misrepresent your view, it was genuinely how i read, and i'm sure how others would have read it.

However I still don't feel it calls for the overbearing sarcasm, aggression and belittling tone in your posts

I think you are doing what you have accused me of in the past. Reading into stuff i have written that isn't there. I've been plain speaking with you is all. Ironically though, all those things you mention above are words i associate with a lot of your posts in the past.

I know you can't accept my opinion and from previous experience this could drag on and on. I can debate you but this thread is about the 2013 Season. If you'd care to start a 'how good is Hamilton' thread I can take you on, my first post would ask: which other driver of the last 50 years has had such extensive grooming, then been put directly into a leading car for his first F1 season ?

I have no problem whatsoever accepting your opinion, it's just that i don't agree with it. I'm sure the feeling is reciprocated. Not a big deal though, is it? For me it is what debate is all about. Things soon dry up when everyone is in agreement.

As for this thread, yes it is concerning the 2013 season, but as Hamilton is a part of this season, i really don't see the big problem with discussing him and his career or anyone else on the grid for that matter. Bearing in mind the limited discussion going on here as it is, i don't think adding parameters as to what we can and what we can't talk about is necessarily a good thing. Of course if you wish to cease discussing something yourself, nobody is forcing your input on any matter.

So to your question: which other driver of the last 50 years has had such extensive grooming, then been put directly into a leading car for his first F1 season?

As i have already answered, there was nothing special or unique about the way Hamilton was groomed, hundreds of young budding racers walk a similar path every year. Where Hamilton was different, was that as he matured from boy to man, rather than being told that he was good but not quite good enough to enter the racing elite that is F1, he was told "yes, we do think you are good enough and we are going to give you a shot". McClaren didn't do this as a favour to him. He wasn't related to Ron Dennis or someone at McClaren, and he didn't bring with him a massive suitcase of money. They gave him the chance simply because they saw he had talent... and the way he drove in his first season proved they were right.

Now of course as with almost any career, there is a degree of luck involved in being in the right place at the right time and so forth, but in such a cut throat and competitive world as F1, you can't bluff your way by and stick around. You get a short window of time and you either prove yourself or you get kicked out.

Hamilton earnt his right to his chance thanks to hard work and skill. What do you think it was down to?

[b19bry]

Hamilton earnt his right to his chance thanks to hard work and skill. What do you think it was down to?

I've never said he didn't earn his chance. I just pointed out the opportunity presented to him (i.e. a seat in maybe the top car for is 1st F1 season) was unprecedented, I think that's a fact.

If you don't believe that then please answer the question in my previous post ? (as in give me a name)

I also indicated I think he's over-rated, that's an opinion.

Edited September 12, 2013 by b19bry

[rixalex]

Hamilton earnt his right to his chance thanks to hard work and skill. What do you think it was down to?

I've never said he didn't earn his chance. I just pointed out the opportunity presented to him (i.e. a seat in maybe the top car for is 1st F1 season) was unprecedented, I think that's a fact.

If you don't believe that then please answer the question in my previous post ? (as in give me a name)

I also indicated I think he's over-rated, that's an opinion.

What you actually stated was: Hamilton's intro to F1 was unprecedented with the most preparation and with the (at the time) best car on the grid.

And i have already replied by saying that i don't agree with the first part, about his preparation being unprecedented - i think his preparation was much like any other young budding motor racing hopeful - but i do agree with the second part, about his unprecedented achievement of going straight in to a top team with a very good car.

Top drivers do usually start with a season or two in a lesser F1 team. You can argue that Hamilton was lucky in that he skipped that part of the process, but then as i say, "luck" does not get someone an F1 racing seat at a top team, talent does, and also, going straight in to a top team, meant Hamilton was immediately under pressure and under the spotlight, particularly as he happened to join at the exact same time as a two times world Champion joined. Had he started in a "lesser" team like other drivers do, he would have had more of a chance to hone his skills, to get used to the speed of an F1 car, and to make some rookie mistakes without quite so much media attention on him.

Many drivers i think would have crumbled under the pressure of driving in a top team so quickly, and driving alongside a talent like Alonso. Hamilton didn't. Alonso with all his experience and pedigree, should have blown Hamilton out of the water. He didn't.

Edited September 13, 2013 by rixalex

[b19bry]

What you actually stated was: Hamilton's intro to F1 was unprecedented with the most preparation and with the (at the time) best car on the grid.

And i have already replied by saying that i don't agree with the first part, about his preparation being unprecedented - i think his preparation was much like any other young budding motor racing hopeful - but i do agree with the second part, about his unprecedented achievement of going straight in to a top team with a very good car.

Many drivers i think would have crumbled under the pressure of driving in a top team so quickly, and driving alongside a talent like Alonso. Hamilton didn't. Alonso with all his experience and pedigree, should have blown Hamilton out of the water. He didn't.

Rixalex, again you are trying to read things into my post that weren't really there. It's difficult on a forum to convey every detail and be short and concise at the same time, and I hate posting more than is necessary. It really get's a bit pointless trying to dissect in minute detail everything that's posted (I don't seem to have problems with other posters with this).

My intent was to indicate the whole process of Hamilton's graduation to F1 was unprecedented and ok shoot me down for not being clearer. The years of grooming, the fact that he was then presented a top drive, it's all part and parcel of the same thing. No other driver in the history of F1 has had that.

In that sense it makes it difficult to assess how good his performance in that 1st year actually was, no other driver in the history of F1 has been there.

He then won a very close championship the following season but has fallen short in subsequent years on that initial promise.

Sure he's done a good job but did you ever sit down and really think, 'how come he did such a good job ?'

It may just be he's one of a kind, an F1 genius let's say,,,,,,maybe........ or perhaps there are other factors involved ?

You then conclude with "Alonso with all his experience and pedigree, should have blown Hamilton out of the water. He didn't." as though that's a vindication of Hamilton's brilliance.

Like you I've been following F1 for a fair few years, to me and maybe more sanguine observers there's simply more to it.

Which leaves us with, you think he's a genius, I think think he's over-rated, and never the twain !

[rixalex]

My intent was to indicate the whole process of Hamilton's graduation to F1 was unprecedented and ok shoot me down for not being clearer. The years of grooming, the fact that he was then presented a top drive, it's all part and parcel of the same thing. No other driver in the history of F1 has had that.

In that sense it makes it difficult to assess how good his performance in that 1st year actually was, no other driver in the history of F1 has been there.

I don't understand why you think his first season was difficult to assess. Yes accepted he started in a top team in a very good car, but he was driving alongside one of the best modern day drivers, who was already a two times world champion, and right from the first race, he was every bit as fast and every bit as successful as Alonso, with proof of that them both finishing on the exact same number of points, and with them both a single point or two off winning the championship. And if not for a couple of ridiculous team mistakes, such as the one they made in China of delaying a pit stop to change from wet weather tyres to dry in a race in which he only needed to finish in the points to wrap up the title, he would indeed have won the title in his first year.

By anybody's definition (save it seems for yours), for a rookie to have achieved that, it was very impressive. Most people at the start of the season, i think it is fair to say, assumed that Hamilton, without having had any time to acclimatize in a smaller team, would be something of a whipping boy, playing back up to the Spanish maestro. Most people thought that he would finish the season some way off Alonso, and that even if he managed that, there would be no shame in a rookie in his first year getting to grips with the sport, achieving that. McClaren themselves i'm sure had filled the two seats with the thinking that Alonso was the driver for the now who would do most of the winning (and hopefully bagging a number of championships), and Hamilton was the one for the future who would learn from Alonso and take over Alonso's mantle at some future point.

And why did none of those things happen? Because right from the get-go, Hamilton was as fast as Alonso and Alonso didn't know how to cope, so he started to blame the team and lash out at them for them not giving him the preferential treatment he thought he had been promised; the preferential treatment he felt he deserved; the preferential treatment we have seen from his subsequent team dealings that he demands, and that ultimately results in teams going to ridiculous extremes on his behalf, such as getting a team mate to crash for him, or getting a team mate to tamper with his own gear box in order to incur a grid penalty.

He then won a very close championship the following season but has fallen short in subsequent years on that initial promise.

He fell very short in the season that David was alluding too. The Queen would describe it as being his annus horribilis. I don't think he makes any bones about how bad that season was for him. For the other seasons, i think he has done overall pretty well. No, he hasn't won the title, but there can only be one winner every year, and that doesn't mean that all the other drivers have necessarily fallen short. Perhaps had he been driving a car that had been consistently better than all the other cars, and had he still not won again, what you are saying would be true. I don't think he has had that car, and i don't think there are many drivers, no matter how great they are, who can win in a car that isn't consistently better than the others. The only driver i can think of who has done it, is Alonso, and credit to him for that. I guess an argument could also be made for Kimi although he didn't so much win the title, as have it handed to him.

Sure he's done a good job but did you ever sit down and really think, 'how come he did such a good job ?'

It may just be he's one of a kind, an F1 genius let's say,,,,,,maybe........ or perhaps there are other factors involved ?

You then conclude with "Alonso with all his experience and pedigree, should have blown Hamilton out of the water. He didn't." as though that's a vindication of Hamilton's brilliance.

Like you I've been following F1 for a fair few years, to me and maybe more sanguine observers there's simply more to it.

Which leaves us with, you think he's a genius, I think think he's over-rated, and never the twain !

Yes actually i do think he is a genius, but he is one of a handful in F1 right now who i would also describe in those terms... so "no", he isn't "one of a kind". Geniuses aren't perfect though. They do make mistakes. Edited September 14, 2013 by rixalex

[b19bry]

I don't understand why you think his first season was difficult to assess.

By anybody's definition (save it seems for yours), for a rookie to have achieved that, it was very impressive.

Yes actually i do think he is a genius,

Rixalex,

Yes I'd agree we seem to be on entirely different wavelengths. We've been here before, so I reckon any further discussion between us futile.

I'd just point out you again misinterpret and misrepresent what I said, I'd really appreciate you desist from this. I never denied the achievements of his first season was impressive in fact I conceded he's done a good job. As I said before, I just think there's more to it than him just being a 'genius'. You also attempt to isolate me as though I'm the only one who thinks this way. I can assure you that's not the case.

Let's get this thread back to F1 2013 ?

[Loptr]

The Tifosi will be scratching their heads next year trying to figure out who to support, Fernando or Kimi.

We all know Fernando does not take kindly to being on equal footing with a teammate as his stint at McLaren with Lewis as evidence. Fernando will revert to his true nature and Kimi will take advantage. It should be quite interesting.

[b19bry]

The Tifosi will be scratching their heads next year trying to figure out who to support, Fernando or Kimi.

Not at all........... the tifosi are always fanatical about any driver who gets behind the wheel of their red car. They've particularly warmed to Alonso as a Latino

We all know Fernando does not take kindly to being on equal footing with a teammate as his stint at McLaren with Lewis as evidence. Fernando will revert to his true nature and Kimi will take advantage. It should be quite interesting.

It's a formidable pairing, maybe the strongest for 2014, as you say should be interesting.

[wackysleet]

The Tifosi will be scratching their heads next year trying to figure out who to support, Fernando or Kimi.

We all know Fernando does not take kindly to being on equal footing with a teammate as his stint at McLaren with Lewis as evidence. Fernando will revert to his true nature and Kimi will take advantage. It should be quite interesting.

What is exactly Fernandos true nature other than your opinion of him, but perhaps you know the full details of his Maclaren contract and know the man personally.

It's always a good idea to take in and absorb all relevant news info regarding drivers and attempt to sort the wheat from the chaff and realize that in his own country Fernando is the one that gets good publicity and in England it's the medias little darling Lewis who can do no wrong but in fact there's not a lot of difference in their attitudes and that is what probably makes them so competitive.

Believe me, they both have an unpleasant side to their character.

David.

[rixalex]

What is exactly Fernandos true nature other than your opinion of him, but perhaps you know the full details of his Maclaren contract and know the man personally.

People in the public eye, be it sports people, actors, models or singers, they all get judged by the public from the way they behave and the things they do. Sometimes the public may form an unfair and an incorrect opinion of a person, perhaps thanks to some shoddy journalism, and sometimes they may form an opinion that is dead on. Either way, being judged by the public is part and parcel of being famous. So i think to chasten Loptr for having an opinion on Alonso's character, simply because he doesn't know the man personally, is a bit daft... and indeed hypocritical... unless you are seriously claiming to have never formed an opinion of someone you didn't know deeply and on a personal level.

Like picking our noses, we all do it i'm afraid.

It's always a good idea to take in and absorb all relevant news info regarding drivers and attempt to sort the wheat from the chaff and realize that in his own country Fernando is the one that gets good publicity and in England it's the medias little darling Lewis who can do no wrong but in fact there's not a lot of difference in their attitudes and that is what probably makes them so competitive.

Point one, i think it's a bit unfair to simply presume that Loptr's opinion hasn't been formed from a broad and wide intake of sources, as yours has. Perhaps it has, but perhaps he has simply ended up with different conclusions from you.

Point two, besides the BBC, my own intake of English based media sources is extremely limited, but in those that i have come across, i have never seen anything that has portrayed Hamilton as "a little darling who can do no wrong".

You haven't been sneaking on to hamiltonisalittledarling dot com again have you?

[wackysleet]

What is exactly Fernandos true nature other than your opinion of him, but perhaps you know the full details of his Maclaren contract and know the man personally.

People in the public eye, be it sports people, actors, models or singers, they all get judged by the public from the way they behave and the things they do. Sometimes the public may form an unfair and an incorrect opinion of a person, perhaps thanks to some shoddy journalism, and sometimes they may form an opinion that is dead on. Either way, being judged by the public is part and parcel of being famous. So i think to chasten Loptr for having an opinion on Alonso's character, simply because he doesn't know the man personally, is a bit daft... and indeed hypocritical... unless you are seriously claiming to have never formed an opinion of someone you didn't know deeply and on a personal level.

Like picking our noses, we all do it i'm afraid.

It's always a good idea to take in and absorb all relevant news info regarding drivers and attempt to sort the wheat from the chaff and realize that in his own country Fernando is the one that gets good publicity and in England it's the medias little darling Lewis who can do no wrong but in fact there's not a lot of difference in their attitudes and that is what probably makes them so competitive.

Point one, i think it's a bit unfair to simply presume that Loptr's opinion hasn't been formed from a broad and wide intake of sources, as yours has. Perhaps it has, but perhaps he has simply ended up with different conclusions from you.

Point two, besides the BBC, my own intake of English based media sources is extremely limited, but in those that i have come across, i have never seen anything that has portrayed Hamilton as "a little darling who can do no wrong".

You haven't been sneaking on to hamiltonisalittledarling dot com again have you?

For one thing I did not chasten anyone, only asked if his opinion of Fernando was based on fact or what he had read and the part I referred to about knowing his contract details could well have explained justifiably why Alonso acted in the way he did and there have been many times where I have passed comment on his behavior, perhaps because I am a fan of F1 first and foremost and not just a Lewis fan.

My dislike of this forum is based on the premise that so many posters are more content to kiss the arse of Lewis than make an observation on the racing and to all intents and purposes most of the Hamilton fans are more concerned with complaining about Alonsos faults while totally ignoring Hamiltons and for those of you that choose not to read and inwardly digest and admit to his faults are deluding yourselves, perhaps because the medias little darling has dropped somewhat down the pecking order of the top few drivers.

I have of course in the past and probably will do so in the future made PERSONAL evaluations on people I have met but never voiced a negative view unless I have actually met the person and not formed an opinion based on what I read unless it correlates with what I know.

I have always endeavoured to be polite and respectful with my posts avoiding personal remarks that I may deem possibly offensive and although I may be all sorts of things I am not a hippocrite, a remark along with your piss poor attempt at witticism re; Hamiltons website I find deeply offensive as it seems your views are the only valid ones allowed.

Why in recent posts you have thought it acceptable to base your replies in the way you do I find it strange but perhaps that is really how you are, sarcastic, but rest assured this will be my last post on this forum, I'm done with wasting my time.

[rixalex]

For one thing I did not chasten anyone, only asked if his opinion of Fernando was based on fact or what he had read and the part I referred to about knowing his contract details could well have explained justifiably why Alonso acted in the way he did and there have been many times where I have passed comment on his behavior, perhaps because I am a fan of F1 first and foremost and not just a Lewis fan.

My dislike of this forum is based on the premise that so many posters are more content to kiss the arse of Lewis than make an observation on the racing and to all intents and purposes most of the Hamilton fans are more concerned with complaining about Alonsos faults while totally ignoring Hamiltons and for those of you that choose not to read and inwardly digest and admit to his faults are deluding yourselves, perhaps because the medias little darling has dropped somewhat down the pecking order of the top few drivers.

I have of course in the past and probably will do so in the future made PERSONAL evaluations on people I have met but never voiced a negative view unless I have actually met the person and not formed an opinion based on what I read unless it correlates with what I know.

I have always endeavoured to be polite and respectful with my posts avoiding personal remarks that I may deem possibly offensive and although I may be all sorts of things I am not a hippocrite, a remark along with your piss poor attempt at witticism re; Hamiltons website I find deeply offensive as it seems your views are the only valid ones allowed.

Why in recent posts you have thought it acceptable to base your replies in the way you do I find it strange but perhaps that is really how you are, sarcastic, but rest assured this will be my last post on this forum, I'm done with wasting my time.

I was going to write a response point by point to what you have written above David, but thinking about it, since are no longer going to participate on this forum, and since you clearly find my responses as offensive as you do, i guess better to leave it at that.

I am genuinely saddened that you feel the way you do, especially as i do hold you and your opinion in high regard, regardless of whether the feeling is mutual, but i won't apologise for any of my opinions or anything i have posted, because i don't think i have done anything besides explain and argue things (yes, at times robustly) from my point of view.

As i have said before, for me, forums like this are a place to meet people with different opinions from oneself, and to have ones own opinion challenged. I welcome that. Yes it can be a confrontational place at times, but we are all adults here, and i like to think once a difference of opinion has been argued out, at the end of the day, we move on with relatively open minds about each other and with mutual respect.

That's not to say there aren't times when one might feel offended by something someone says - i certainly have been, and i'm sure will continue to be from time to time - but at the end of the day, i'm a big boy, i know what i am and what i'm not, and this is only an anonymous forum amongst people who have never met each other, most who never will.. things get written (a lot of inconsequential things)and then largely they get forgotten about. The day i start taking things here that seriously, is the day i think i am better off not being here and follow you out the door. Sorry to disappoint, but that's not today.

Farewell and best of luck.

[b19bry]

What is exactly Fernandos true nature other than your opinion of him, but perhaps you know the full details of his Maclaren contract and know the man personally.

People in the public eye, be it sports people, actors, models or singers, they all get judged by the public from the way they behave and the things they do. Sometimes the public may form an unfair and an incorrect opinion of a person, perhaps thanks to some shoddy journalism, and sometimes they may form an opinion that is dead on. Either way, being judged by the public is part and parcel of being famous. So i think to chasten Loptr for having an opinion on Alonso's character, simply because he doesn't know the man personally, is a bit daft... and indeed hypocritical... unless you are seriously claiming to have never formed an opinion of someone you didn't know deeply and on a personal level.

Like picking our noses, we all do it i'm afraid.

It's always a good idea to take in and absorb all relevant news info regarding drivers and attempt to sort the wheat from the chaff and realize that in his own country Fernando is the one that gets good publicity and in England it's the medias little darling Lewis who can do no wrong but in fact there's not a lot of difference in their attitudes and that is what probably makes them so competitive.

Point one, i think it's a bit unfair to simply presume that Loptr's opinion hasn't been formed from a broad and wide intake of sources, as yours has. Perhaps it has, but perhaps he has simply ended up with different conclusions from you.

Point two, besides the BBC, my own intake of English based media sources is extremely limited, but in those that i have come across, i have never seen anything that has portrayed Hamilton as "a little darling who can do no wrong".

You haven't been sneaking on to hamiltonisalittledarling dot com again have you?

For one thing I did not chasten anyone, only asked if his opinion of Fernando was based on fact or what he had read and the part I referred to about knowing his contract details could well have explained justifiably why Alonso acted in the way he did and there have been many times where I have passed comment on his behavior, perhaps because I am a fan of F1 first and foremost and not just a Lewis fan.

My dislike of this forum is based on the premise that so many posters are more content to kiss the arse of Lewis than make an observation on the racing and to all intents and purposes most of the Hamilton fans are more concerned with complaining about Alonsos faults while totally ignoring Hamiltons and for those of you that choose not to read and inwardly digest and admit to his faults are deluding yourselves, perhaps because the medias little darling has dropped somewhat down the pecking order of the top few drivers.

I have of course in the past and probably will do so in the future made PERSONAL evaluations on people I have met but never voiced a negative view unless I have actually met the person and not formed an opinion based on what I read unless it correlates with what I know.

I have always endeavoured to be polite and respectful with my posts avoiding personal remarks that I may deem possibly offensive and although I may be all sorts of things I am not a hippocrite, a remark along with your piss poor attempt at witticism re; Hamiltons website I find deeply offensive as it seems your views are the only valid ones allowed.

Why in recent posts you have thought it acceptable to base your replies in the way you do I find it strange but perhaps that is really how you are, sarcastic, but rest assured this will be my last post on this forum, I'm done with wasting my time.

Pretty much 100% agree with you David.

Any attempt at an intelligent discourse on here about F1 gets swamped in a deluge of smartarse & 'informed' comments from the Hamilton contingent aimed at bringing down Alonso's reputation. Any attempt to question or re-dress this is met with skewed logic often followed by 'light-hearted humour' (for which read childish insults & sarcasm).

To your credit, you have always been polite on here where I've been less tolerant and guilty of being a little more robust. As I'm sure you've witnessed that just elevates to more unpleasantness and sarcasm.

Totally sad to see that it's come to this for you. For me you are certainly one of, if the not the most respected, informed and valued of posters seen on this thread.

I too question the value of participating further. I know I can rest assured you will get much enjoyment from the coming races and future seasons.

[Loptr]

What is exactly Fernandos true nature other than your opinion of him, but perhaps you know the full details of his Maclaren contract and know the man personally.

People in the public eye, be it sports people, actors, models or singers, they all get judged by the public from the way they behave and the things they do. Sometimes the public may form an unfair and an incorrect opinion of a person, perhaps thanks to some shoddy journalism, and sometimes they may form an opinion that is dead on. Either way, being judged by the public is part and parcel of being famous. So i think to chasten Loptr for having an opinion on Alonso's character, simply because he doesn't know the man personally, is a bit daft... and indeed hypocritical... unless you are seriously claiming to have never formed an opinion of someone you didn't know deeply and on a personal level.

Like picking our noses, we all do it i'm afraid.

It's always a good idea to take in and absorb all relevant news info regarding drivers and attempt to sort the wheat from the chaff and realize that in his own country Fernando is the one that gets good publicity and in England it's the medias little darling Lewis who can do no wrong but in fact there's not a lot of difference in their attitudes and that is what probably makes them so competitive.

Point one, i think it's a bit unfair to simply presume that Loptr's opinion hasn't been formed from a broad and wide intake of sources, as yours has. Perhaps it has, but perhaps he has simply ended up with different conclusions from you.

Point two, besides the BBC, my own intake of English based media sources is extremely limited, but in those that i have come across, i have never seen anything that has portrayed Hamilton as "a little darling who can do no wrong".

You haven't been sneaking on to hamiltonisalittledarling dot com again have you?

Please, don't be coy. Either you know the history of Ferrari-gate or you don't. If you don't, spend 15 minutes and enlighten yourself. Otherwise you are not making judgments based on fact.

No being Italian, Spanish or English, I have no skin in this game. I don't particularly care for Lewis so that does not sway my judgement of Alonso. In my book, either a person has integrity or they don't. In my judgement, Alonso has very little integrity, if any at all.

[b19bry]

What is exactly Fernandos true nature other than your opinion of him, but perhaps you know the full details of his Maclaren contract and know the man personally.

People in the public eye, be it sports people, actors, models or singers, they all get judged by the public from the way they behave and the things they do. Sometimes the public may form an unfair and an incorrect opinion of a person, perhaps thanks to some shoddy journalism, and sometimes they may form an opinion that is dead on. Either way, being judged by the public is part and parcel of being famous. So i think to chasten Loptr for having an opinion on Alonso's character, simply because he doesn't know the man personally, is a bit daft... and indeed hypocritical... unless you are seriously claiming to have never formed an opinion of someone you didn't know deeply and on a personal level.

Like picking our noses, we all do it i'm afraid.

It's always a good idea to take in and absorb all relevant news info regarding drivers and attempt to sort the wheat from the chaff and realize that in his own country Fernando is the one that gets good publicity and in England it's the medias little darling Lewis who can do no wrong but in fact there's not a lot of difference in their attitudes and that is what probably makes them so competitive.

Point one, i think it's a bit unfair to simply presume that Loptr's opinion hasn't been formed from a broad and wide intake of sources, as yours has. Perhaps it has, but perhaps he has simply ended up with different conclusions from you.

Point two, besides the BBC, my own intake of English based media sources is extremely limited, but in those that i have come across, i have never seen anything that has portrayed Hamilton as "a little darling who can do no wrong".

You haven't been sneaking on to hamiltonisalittledarling dot com again have you?

Please, don't be coy. Either you know the history of Ferrari-gate or you don't. If you don't, spend 15 minutes and enlighten yourself. Otherwise you are not making judgments based on fact.

No being Italian, Spanish or English, I have no skin in this game. I don't particularly care for Lewis so that does not sway my judgement of Alonso. In my book, either a person has integrity or they don't. In my judgement, Alonso has very little integrity, if any at all.

Well I think that's really what David was driving at.

You tell us in the initial post "We all know Fernando" and continue with "Fernando will revert to his true nature"

You tell us to spend 15 mins to 'enlighten yourself' intimating that allows a judgement based on fact.

All that shows is you have really no basis to make the statements above or like 'Alonso has very little integrity, if any at all'

The only way you'd really know these things would be from first hand dealings with the man or those that have dealings with him. On that basis it's not really behoven on you to make the statements or claims as above.

[rixalex]

Pretty much 100% agree with you David.

Any attempt at an intelligent discourse on here about F1 gets swamped in a deluge of smartarse & 'informed' comments from the Hamilton contingent aimed at bringing down Alonso's reputation. Any attempt to question or re-dress this is met with skewed logic often followed by 'light-hearted humour' (for which read childish insults & sarcasm).

To your credit, you have always been polite on here where I've been less tolerant and guilty of being a little more robust. As I'm sure you've witnessed that just elevates to more unpleasantness and sarcasm.

Totally sad to see that it's come to this for you. For me you are certainly one of, if the not the most respected, informed and valued of posters seen on this thread.

I too question the value of participating further. I know I can rest assured you will get much enjoyment from the coming races and future seasons.

Deary me, what a load of stomach-churning hypocritical sanctimony.

[rixalex]

Please, don't be coy. Either you know the history of Ferrari-gate or you don't. If you don't, spend 15 minutes and enlighten yourself. Otherwise you are not making judgments based on fact.

No being Italian, Spanish or English, I have no skin in this game. I don't particularly care for Lewis so that does not sway my judgement of Alonso. In my book, either a person has integrity or they don't. In my judgement, Alonso has very little integrity, if any at all.

Don't know what you think i am being coy about. You'll have to expand on that one. Thanks though for the enlightenment advice.

As for your comments about Alonso and your having "no skin in this game", Alonso fans will simply assume, as has been proven here, that anything unfavourable said about him must come from a biased, Hamilton-fan, British-media viewpoint.

[b19bry]

Pretty much 100% agree with you David.

Any attempt at an intelligent discourse on here about F1 gets swamped in a deluge of smartarse & 'informed' comments from the Hamilton contingent aimed at bringing down Alonso's reputation. Any attempt to question or re-dress this is met with skewed logic often followed by 'light-hearted humour' (for which read childish insults & sarcasm).

To your credit, you have always been polite on here where I've been less tolerant and guilty of being a little more robust. As I'm sure you've witnessed that just elevates to more unpleasantness and sarcasm.

Totally sad to see that it's come to this for you. For me you are certainly one of, if the not the most respected, informed and valued of posters seen on this thread.

I too question the value of participating further. I know I can rest assured you will get much enjoyment from the coming races and future seasons.

Deary me, what a load of stomach-churning hypocritical sanctimony.

Mmm, interesting how you selectively remove from the above quote the previous response to your post on which I'd pretty much 100% agreed. A post so damning of your previously offensive and sarcastic posting behaviour which was maybe the reason you edited it out. Nevertheless it appears your scurrilous behaviour has already lost us a most valued poster on this thread.

In fairness you at least quote above the element of my post which indicates how you will elevate the level of unpleasantness and sarcasm when someone disagrees with you and which your latest post above only too clearly confirms.

It's sad you see you believe you can intimidate, harass & belittle those on here that dare to disagree with your position with impugnity.

Having already cost this thread a valued poster you now round on me seemingly intent on removing me (as another who dares to present an alternate view to your's).

[Totster]

Glad to see everyone is getting on in here. Is F1 that big an issue to require an argument ? Have a beer, chill out!

totster

[b19bry]

Glad to see everyone is getting on in here. Is F1 that big an issue to require an argument ? Have a beer, chill out!

totster

Totster,

With respect I don't think the discussion of F1 is the issue here and I'd happily buy a beer for any of the posters here.

The core of the issue is more a lack of respect, insults and a determination by a certain member to set the tone, direction and ultimately who may post on the thread.

[rixalex]

Mmm, interesting how you selectively remove from the above quote the previous response to your post on which I'd pretty much 100% agreed. A post so damning of your previously offensive and sarcastic posting behaviour which was maybe the reason you edited it out. Nevertheless it appears your scurrilous behaviour has already lost us a most valued poster on this thread.

In fairness you at least quote above the element of my post which indicates how you will elevate the level of unpleasantness and sarcasm when someone disagrees with you and which your latest post above only too clearly confirms.

It's sad you see you believe you can intimidate, harass & belittle those on here that dare to disagree with your position with impugnity.

Having already cost this thread a valued poster you now round on me seemingly intent on removing me (as another who dares to present an alternate view to your's).

Firstly, contrary to your highly strung conspiratorial minds workings, i edit posts on the basis of trying to cut down on repeating what has already been said, and try to leave simply what i am most directly replying to. I have no intention of trying to selectively remove anything, as there is nothing i have said nor anything anybody else has said, that i am not happy to have repeated. It is all there for everyone to read already. If you are desperate for people to read it again, suggest you be the one to waste bandwith and repost it yourself.

Secondly, to your long, wild and drama queen like list of accusations including unpleasantness, intimidation, harassment, belittling, sarcasm, offensiveness, scurrilousness... anybody who has followed this thread and the ones that came before it, will have seen and will know that in terms of general tone and rhetoric, politeness and respect, there is nothing i have said that has been worse than anything anybody else has said, most certainly including you. If you think there is, rather than bleating on about it, just click the report button and let the mods deal with it. That is what they are there for. If a mod comes to me and says i have crossed a line, i will listen to them and adjust my behavior or stop posting. I won't however listen to someone like you who has posted in exactly the same fashion as me and who has a very clear and obvious agenda.

Thirdly, i have no influence over who contributes to this thread, nor do i wish to, and as i have also said, i welcome and enjoy meeting people here who have a different opinion to me. No part of me wants anybody to stop contributing, as F1 fans are thin on the ground enough as it is here, and as i have said, i am saddened that David has decided to call it a day, but i won't take responsibility for him or anyone else leaving. If he or anyone else is not comfortable with the frank and forthright exchange of views that occurs here and no longer wishes to contribute, then that is their choice.

Fourthly, if anyone is guilty here of trying to harass someone off this thread, it is you with your repeated and constant attempts to paint me as the axis of evil.

Fifthly and lastly, if anyone here is unable to accept an alternate view from their own, it is you as demonstrated by all the toys that you've thrown out of your pram in the last few days, with all the accusations you have made up against me, just because i dared voice an opinion different from your own.

Anyway, for the sake of this thread, for the sake of everyone else having to read this, and in the interests of adhering to forum guidelines of staying on topic, i will endeavor to desist from responding any further to whatever nonsense you post about me, and hope we can all return to a discussion of F1.

[Totster]

Cool,

Anyone care to offer an opinion on who will win this weekend ? Previous results show Alonso and Vettel both winning twice before with Hamilton winning in 2009. Me personally, I would like to see Webber take the flag just to stick it to Red Bull and Vettel. I'll look forward to the practice so I can make a more educated guess on who will actually win.

totster

[Guest]

For Singapore Hamilton-Rosberg could be on podium. They quite often get good qualification results and it might not be so easy to overtake in Singapore. Otherwise Vettel once again.

One of the things to watch is how Massa will be doing. He has now announced that he don't drive for Alonso anymore and it's now time to race for himself. How will this affect to the Ferrari team for the rest of the season?

[ignis]

For Singapore Hamilton-Rosberg could be on podium. They quite often get good qualification results and it might not be so easy to overtake in Singapore. Otherwise Vettel once again.

One of the things to watch is how Massa will be doing. He has now announced that he don't drive for Alonso anymore and it's now time to race for himself. How will this affect to the Ferrari team for the rest of the season?

Massa just need to be in front of Alonso, Massa not getting out of the way or slowing will be something new for Alonso, a taste of next year come early