The Hippie Trail......

[SteeleJoe]

The Pill, by the reckoning of any credible historian or sociologist I am aware of, had a massive impact on sexual freedom.

It was a product of the 50's (people who struggled through and overcame in the depression and WWII - or as you call them, people who did nothing but on their bums and sponge off of mom and dad). and leeched off mom and dad)

Not the youth of the 60's. They benefitted from it, rather than made it happen. (Just as they hoped to benefit from an end to the war that they quite understandably didn't want to fight like so many of their less fortunate peers were doing)

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[chiangmaikelly]

The Pill, by the reckoning of any credible historian or sociologist I am aware of, had a massive impact on sexual freedom. It was a product of the 50's (people who struggled through and overcame in the depression and WWII - or as you call them, people who did nothing but on their bums and sponge off of mom and dad). and leeched off mom and dad) Not the youth of the 60's. They benefitted from it, rather than made it happen. (Just as they hoped to benefit from an end to the war that they quite understandably didn't want to fight like so many of their less fortunate peers were doing) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

There was the "Great Generation" that fought WW II and then the Hippies that stopped a war. Since then not really much has happened of the same level of excitement. What was the greatest contribution of the HIppies? Probably Rock and Roll.

Edited March 1, 2013 by chiangmaikelly

[SteeleJoe]

The Pill, by the reckoning of any credible historian or sociologist I am aware of, had a massive impact on sexual freedom. It was a product of the 50's (people who struggled through and overcame in the depression and WWII - or as you call them, people who did nothing but on their bums and sponge off of mom and dad). and leeched off mom and dad) Not the youth of the 60's. They benefitted from it, rather than made it happen. (Just as they hoped to benefit from an end to the war that they quite understandably didn't want to fight like so many of their less fortunate peers were doing) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

There was the "Great Generation" that fought WW II and then the Hippies that stopped a war. Since then not really much has happened of the same level of excitement. What was the greatest contribution of the HIppies? Probably Rock and Roll.

Well, you have altered your original position quite a bit...still way oversimplified and not quite accurate but progress nonetheless.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

[harrry]

There was the "Great Generation" that fought WW II and then the Hippies that stopped a war. Since then not really much has happened of the same level of excitement. What was the greatest contribution of the HIppies? Probably Rock and Roll.

The Pill, by the reckoning of any credible historian or sociologist I am aware of, had a massive impact on sexual freedom. It was a product of the 50's (people who struggled through and overcame in the depression and WWII - or as you call them, people who did nothing but on their bums and sponge off of mom and dad). and leeched off mom and dad) Not the youth of the 60's. They benefitted from it, rather than made it happen. (Just as they hoped to benefit from an end to the war that they quite understandably didn't want to fight like so many of their less fortunate peers were doing) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

Well it sure was not PEACE.

Just look arount...since them..........Granada....... India v Packistan

Pakistan V india

Iraq v Iran

US etc v Iraq

US etc v Afganistan

The Middle East v the Middle East

etc

[chiangmaikelly]

The Pill, by the reckoning of any credible historian or sociologist I am aware of, had a massive impact on sexual freedom. It was a product of the 50's (people who struggled through and overcame in the depression and WWII - or as you call them, people who did nothing but on their bums and sponge off of mom and dad). and leeched off mom and dad) Not the youth of the 60's. They benefitted from it, rather than made it happen. (Just as they hoped to benefit from an end to the war that they quite understandably didn't want to fight like so many of their less fortunate peers were doing) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

There was the "Great Generation" that fought WW II and then the Hippies that stopped a war. Since then not really much has happened of the same level of excitement. What was the greatest contribution of the HIppies? Probably Rock and Roll.

Well, you have altered your original position quite a bit...still way oversimplified and not quite accurate but progress nonetheless.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

The Pill, by the reckoning of any credible historian or sociologist I am aware of, had a massive impact on sexual freedom. It was a product of the 50's (people who struggled through and overcame in the depression and WWII - or as you call them, people who did nothing but on their bums and sponge off of mom and dad). and leeched off mom and dad) Not the youth of the 60's. They benefitted from it, rather than made it happen. (Just as they hoped to benefit from an end to the war that they quite understandably didn't want to fight like so many of their less fortunate peers were doing) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

There was the "Great Generation" that fought WW II and then the Hippies that stopped a war. Since then not really much has happened of the same level of excitement. What was the greatest contribution of the HIppies? Probably Rock and Roll.

Well, you have altered your original position quite a bit...still way oversimplified and not quite accurate but progress nonetheless.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

It should be pointed out that if I remembered all of the 1960's I would not have been there.

[SteeleJoe]

The Pill, by the reckoning of any credible historian or sociologist I am aware of, had a massive impact on sexual freedom. It was a product of the 50's (people who struggled through and overcame in the depression and WWII - or as you call them, people who did nothing but on their bums and sponge off of mom and dad). and leeched off mom and dad) Not the youth of the 60's. They benefitted from it, rather than made it happen. (Just as they hoped to benefit from an end to the war that they quite understandably didn't want to fight like so many of their less fortunate peers were doing) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

There was the "Great Generation" that fought WW II and then the Hippies that stopped a war. Since then not really much has happened of the same level of excitement. What was the greatest contribution of the HIppies? Probably Rock and Roll.

Well, you have altered your original position quite a bit...still way oversimplified and not quite accurate but progress nonetheless.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

The Pill, by the reckoning of any credible historian or sociologist I am aware of, had a massive impact on sexual freedom. It was a product of the 50's (people who struggled through and overcame in the depression and WWII - or as you call them, people who did nothing but on their bums and sponge off of mom and dad). and leeched off mom and dad) Not the youth of the 60's. They benefitted from it, rather than made it happen. (Just as they hoped to benefit from an end to the war that they quite understandably didn't want to fight like so many of their less fortunate peers were doing) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

There was the "Great Generation" that fought WW II and then the Hippies that stopped a war. Since then not really much has happened of the same level of excitement. What was the greatest contribution of the HIppies? Probably Rock and Roll.

Well, you have altered your original position quite a bit...still way oversimplified and not quite accurate but progress nonetheless.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

It should be pointed out that if I remembered all of the 1960's I would not have been there.

True enough (an oldie but a goodie).

I can say the same about the 80's though...

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[chiangmaikelly]

One of the big advantages of being born in the 1940's was being a teen or young adult in the 1960's and retired in the 1990's and dead before all the bad stuff happens. I don't think many people will debate much of Thailand was better 10 years ago and imagine what it will be like in 30 years. The sweet spot has come and gone. There is never going to be another Woodstock or Vietnam war or Thailand and Saigon and Haight Ashbury in the 1960's. My grandfather told me stories about Shanghai in the 1920's and 1930's. It is a one of a kind thing. I'm sorry I missed it. I watched three ages of my children grow up as I have offspring who are 50's, 40's and 20's. They didn't have as much fun as I did. Which is good in a way.

[thaibeachlovers]

New age hippy trail. Khao San road then the bus down to Koh Phangan Had Rin

Yeah, that's about as hippy as it gets in Thailand. The KSR tourist- bahhhhh bahhhhhh bahhhhh.

I was around in the 60s, but looking back, I reckon it was BS anyway. Just a bunch of dropouts that got high and had a lot of unprotected sex. It might have been genuine for about 5 minutes, till the media got hold of it and started on about some singer being "King of the hippies" and all that sort of rubbish.

Anyway, I never met a hippie then or since. Perhaps it's an urban legend, like Bigfoot- there was a hippie here yesterday, but he's gone now!

[thaibeachlovers]

The Pill, by the reckoning of any credible historian or sociologist I am aware of, had a massive impact on sexual freedom. It was a product of the 50's (people who struggled through and overcame in the depression and WWII - or as you call them, people who did nothing but on their bums and sponge off of mom and dad). and leeched off mom and dad) Not the youth of the 60's. They benefitted from it, rather than made it happen. (Just as they hoped to benefit from an end to the war that they quite understandably didn't want to fight like so many of their less fortunate peers were doing) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

There was the "Great Generation" that fought WW II and then the Hippies that stopped a war. Since then not really much has happened of the same level of excitement. What was the greatest contribution of the HIppies? Probably Rock and Roll.

Depends on your definition of Rock and Roll. Real R & R was Chuck Berry, Bill Haley et al, and they would probably have given a hippy the boot up the arse. Besides, R & R came out long before the first "hippies" lit up.

Hippies were into soft stuff like "are you going to San Francisco" and Mamas and Papas music etc, none of which are R & R.

If you are talking about Rock ( I never really understood why they call the crap that masquerades as music these days "Rock" ) you might be correct.

[chiangmaikelly]

New age hippy trail. Khao San road then the bus down to Koh Phangan Had Rin

Yeah, that's about as hippy as it gets in Thailand. The KSR tourist- bahhhhh bahhhhhh bahhhhh.

I was around in the 60s, but looking back, I reckon it was BS anyway. Just a bunch of dropouts that got high and had a lot of unprotected sex. It might have been genuine for about 5 minutes, till the media got hold of it and started on about some singer being "King of the hippies" and all that sort of rubbish.

Anyway, I never met a hippie then or since. Perhaps it's an urban legend, like Bigfoot- there was a hippie here yesterday, but he's gone now!

I think these are hippies.

[thaibeachlovers]

In the days of the hippy trail people who traveled did so with the intention of mixing with local people and trying to relate to their lives. A few of them like Tony Wheeler did so to make a profit. Now the young people on their adventure clutching copies of the BBC owned Lonely Planet guide spend all their time in commercially oriented ventures such as diving and jet ski riding with as little contact with the locals as possible.

I used to spend a considerable amount of time on the LP site ( before the management recently stuffed it up ), and never ceased to be amazed at how timid the young people that travel now are. They constantly ask the regulars to write their itineraries, need to take their laptops and communication devices ( have to constantly be in touch with back home ), worry about rain in the wet season and rarely go off the well trodden tourist path. Bahhhh bahhhhh.

They have no idea of cultural differences, or that leaving money and passports in soft packs stowed out of sight in the baggage hold of the tourist bus is not a good idea. They are also incredibly ignorant, and think that laws against using illegal drugs don't apply to them, or that it is OK to leave their passport as security while they ride a hire m'bike wearing only shorts ( bikini top for girls ) and flip flops despite never having ridden a m'bike before in their short lives.

And they say that children are better educated than ever before in the history of humans, arrrrrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhh.

[chiangmaikelly]

The Pill, by the reckoning of any credible historian or sociologist I am aware of, had a massive impact on sexual freedom. It was a product of the 50's (people who struggled through and overcame in the depression and WWII - or as you call them, people who did nothing but on their bums and sponge off of mom and dad). and leeched off mom and dad) Not the youth of the 60's. They benefitted from it, rather than made it happen. (Just as they hoped to benefit from an end to the war that they quite understandably didn't want to fight like so many of their less fortunate peers were doing) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

There was the "Great Generation" that fought WW II and then the Hippies that stopped a war. Since then not really much has happened of the same level of excitement. What was the greatest contribution of the HIppies? Probably Rock and Roll.

Depends on your definition of Rock and Roll. Real R & R was Chuck Berry, Bill Haley et al, and they would probably have given a hippy the boot up the arse. Besides, R & R came out long before the first "hippies" lit up.

Hippies were into soft stuff like "are you going to San Francisco" and Mamas and Papas music etc, none of which are R & R.

If you are talking about Rock ( I never really understood why they call the crap that masquerades as music these days "Rock" ) you might be correct.

I always thought of beatnicks first then hippies. I associated beatnicks with jazz and hippies with rock and roll. When I think of hippies I think of Woodstock and Monterey pop. Just me. Of course you can get technical and go back to jump blues and stuff like that.

[bunta71]

The Pill, by the reckoning of any credible historian or sociologist I am aware of, had a massive impact on sexual freedom. It was a product of the 50's (people who struggled through and overcame in the depression and WWII - or as you call them, people who did nothing but on their bums and sponge off of mom and dad). and leeched off mom and dad) Not the youth of the 60's. They benefitted from it, rather than made it happen. (Just as they hoped to benefit from an end to the war that they quite understandably didn't want to fight like so many of their less fortunate peers were doing) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

There was the "Great Generation" that fought WW II and then the Hippies that stopped a war. Since then not really much has happened of the same level of excitement. What was the greatest contribution of the HIppies? Probably Rock and Roll.

Depends on your definition of Rock and Roll. Real R & R was Chuck Berry, Bill Haley et al, and they would probably have given a hippy the boot up the arse. Besides, R & R came out long before the first "hippies" lit up.

Hippies were into soft stuff like "are you going to San Francisco" and Mamas and Papas music etc, none of which are R & R.

If you are talking about Rock ( I never really understood why they call the crap that masquerades as music these days "Rock" ) you might be correct.

I always thought of beatnicks first then hippies. I associated beatnicks with jazz and hippies with rock and roll. When I think of hippies I think of Woodstock and Monterey pop. Just me. Of course you can get technical and go back to jump blues and stuff like that.

Maynard G. Krebbs , first beatnik I was aware of after school, Dobie Gillis Show

[harrry]

In the days of the hippy trail people who traveled did so with the intention of mixing with local people and trying to relate to their lives. A few of them like Tony Wheeler did so to make a profit. Now the young people on their adventure clutching copies of the BBC owned Lonely Planet guide spend all their time in commercially oriented ventures such as diving and jet ski riding with as little contact with the locals as possible.

I used to spend a considerable amount of time on the LP site ( before the management recently stuffed it up ), and never ceased to be amazed at how timid the young people that travel now are. They constantly ask the regulars to write their itineraries, need to take their laptops and communication devices ( have to constantly be in touch with back home ), worry about rain in the wet season and rarely go off the well trodden tourist path. Bahhhh bahhhhh.

They have no idea of cultural differences, or that leaving money and passports in soft packs stowed out of sight in the baggage hold of the tourist bus is not a good idea. They are also incredibly ignorant, and think that laws against using illegal drugs don't apply to them, or that it is OK to leave their passport as security while they ride a hire m'bike wearing only shorts ( bikini top for girls ) and flip flops despite never having ridden a m'bike before in their short lives.

And they say that children are better educated than ever before in the history of humans, arrrrrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhh.

In most ways I agree. The BBC run lonely planet is not very good. If you gave one of the new kids a paper map he would look for the buttons. and they have to have all their packaged adventures laid out for them.

I wish though I had had the internet when I travelled though. If you asked somone about a 3000 year old ruin or a 50 year old one you got the same answer. Old...vey old historic. What information about a place was never in English and usually written by the local travel shops young kid who was very smart because he could speak english and did very well in grade 5 at school.

[theblether]

Re the Thai connection.....I would have thought that the Golden Triangle would have held an attraction back in the day, or was it just too dangerous back then?

[harrry]

Re the Thai connection.....I would have thought that the Golden Triangle would have held an attraction back in the day, or was it just too dangerous back then?

Trecking was quite popular then.

People would go with a guide to a few villages within a small circle round ChiangMai and return with opium hangovers. It was common knowledge that going on these you should take about $10 only and in the regular holdups hand over readily to the armed robbers. There were a couple of cases where tourists suddenly started to resist and scared the robbers who then shot them in panic.

ChiangMai was pretty remote then and there was a little trecking but slightly more dangerous.

there were some disappearances of tourists on a regular basis from border areas of the golden triangle as horse trains of product were shipped through there and strange eyes were not welcome especially after the US started paying people to try to stop it. (Ironic in view of the Air America operations)

Some people think that there are areas there still that unwelcome eyes will disappear but the product now is Yabba and not Heroin.

[chiangmaikelly]

Re the Thai connection.....I would have thought that the Golden Triangle would have held an attraction back in the day, or was it just too dangerous back then?

It was cool back then. The guy in the painting ran a dude ranch and grew flowers; poppies I think. Transportation was easy. In the early 60's it was Corsican Airways and then a small airlines called Air America took over. Security was never an issue as there were three local armies and the Thai army along with Green Berets, SAS (shhhh don't tell anyone I told you), the Laotian Air force and 8 American cracker jack communication technicians made sure everyone could always call home.

[bobbin]

As Harry notes, Chiang Mai was definitely "up-country" in the '70's and the random robbing of buses was a hazard.

Cannabis in the form of hashish was the drug of choice for most travelers, though an unfortunate few fell prey to harder stuff. This applied to the India, Pakistan, Afghanistan nexus. Thailand was different with their Thai-Sticks and heroin, both being freely available and cheap. Thai-Stick and Double O Globe. The book "The Politics of Heroin" was released in that time-frame, detailing Air America aka certain American government agencies' role in facilitating the movement of Guns and Drugs in SEA.

Fast-forward 40+ years. I recently read an article pointing out that SEA is now increasingly out-of -step with the West regarding drug policy. Mandatory death penalties and long jail terms are now the norm in several countries, while the West is increasingly moving towards relaxation of the prohibitionist approach.

In Canada, domestically-produced cannabis is the largest cash crop in British Columbia, worth an estimated C$7 billion , far out-pacing the traditional lumber and fisheries industries. That is just one of our 10 provinces and the pot business is well-entrenched in each of the others, adding up to significant economic impact. In these economic times, government messes with numbers like that at their peril. The recent complete legalization vote in Washington State and Colorado will no doubt negatively affect those numbers, as much product went south.

Legalize and tax is the new mantra.

[theblether]

I agree with that mantra Bobbin.

[nisakiman]

As Harry notes, Chiang Mai was definitely "up-country" in the '70's and the random robbing of buses was a hazard.

Cannabis in the form of hashish was the drug of choice for most travelers, though an unfortunate few fell prey to harder stuff. This applied to the India, Pakistan, Afghanistan nexus. Thailand was different with their Thai-Sticks and heroin, both being freely available and cheap. Thai-Stick and Double O Globe. The book "The Politics of Heroin" was released in that time-frame, detailing Air America aka certain American government agencies' role in facilitating the movement of Guns and Drugs in SEA.

Fast-forward 40+ years. I recently read an article pointing out that SEA is now increasingly out-of -step with the West regarding drug policy. Mandatory death penalties and long jail terms are now the norm in several countries, while the West is increasingly moving towards relaxation of the prohibitionist approach.

In Canada, domestically-produced cannabis is the largest cash crop in British Columbia, worth an estimated C$7 billion , far out-pacing the traditional lumber and fisheries industries. That is just one of our 10 provinces and the pot business is well-entrenched in each of the others, adding up to significant economic impact. In these economic times, government messes with numbers like that at their peril. The recent complete legalization vote in Washington State and Colorado will no doubt negatively affect those numbers, as much product went south.

Legalize and tax is the new mantra.

Indeed, I remember when I was in Thailand in 1971 it seemed that Thai Buddha Sticks were everywhere, and although I didn't travel north of Bangkok, as I was meandering my way down towards Malaysia just about everywhere I stopped I would be invited to share a bong with the people I met. I was stuck in Sadao for a month waiting for money (they wouldn't let me into Malaysia without), and I had a good friend there who was, in theory, Hi-So, but adopted no airs and graces. Lovely guy. His name was George (pronounced Yor' with a glottal stop at the end) Na Songkla, and his father had been head honcho of the state I think. I would spend many an evening with him surrounded by serried ranks of tropical fish tanks (it was his hobby) smoking dope and drinking Mekong Whiskey. It was both normal and accepted. By contrast, about fifteen years ago when I was there (Hua Hin I think), I asked a local I'd got to know if he knew where I could buy a little grass (I still enjoy the occasional spliff), and you'd think I'd asked him where to get bulk heroin! Looked like a rabbit in the headlights. "No no no, don't know, don't know" he said. Ha! how times do change! I've never asked again, needless to say!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

The youth of the 1960's were the only generation in North America to actually do something beyond sit on their bums and sponge off of mom and dad. Stopping the war in Vietnam, Civil rights movement, 2nd wave Feminism, gay rights, Hispanic and Chicano movement to name a few.

And then there were the ones actually fighting the war, and those working and growing the economy. You may have some blinders on as to which groups you rate for the time.

[harrry]

The youth of the 1960's were the only generation in North America to actually do something beyond sit on their bums and sponge off of mom and dad. Stopping the war in Vietnam, Civil rights movement, 2nd wave Feminism, gay rights, Hispanic and Chicano movement to name a few.

And then there were the ones actually fighting the war, and those working and growing the economy. You may have some blinders on as to which groups you rate for the time.

THe guys did the best they could and they deserve respect for that but as for the war doing good there are many that question that.

[theblether]

As Harry notes, Chiang Mai was definitely "up-country" in the '70's and the random robbing of buses was a hazard.

Cannabis in the form of hashish was the drug of choice for most travelers, though an unfortunate few fell prey to harder stuff. This applied to the India, Pakistan, Afghanistan nexus. Thailand was different with their Thai-Sticks and heroin, both being freely available and cheap. Thai-Stick and Double O Globe. The book "The Politics of Heroin" was released in that time-frame, detailing Air America aka certain American government agencies' role in facilitating the movement of Guns and Drugs in SEA.

Fast-forward 40+ years. I recently read an article pointing out that SEA is now increasingly out-of -step with the West regarding drug policy. Mandatory death penalties and long jail terms are now the norm in several countries, while the West is increasingly moving towards relaxation of the prohibitionist approach.

In Canada, domestically-produced cannabis is the largest cash crop in British Columbia, worth an estimated C$7 billion , far out-pacing the traditional lumber and fisheries industries. That is just one of our 10 provinces and the pot business is well-entrenched in each of the others, adding up to significant economic impact. In these economic times, government messes with numbers like that at their peril. The recent complete legalization vote in Washington State and Colorado will no doubt negatively affect those numbers, as much product went south.

Legalize and tax is the new mantra.

Indeed, I remember when I was in Thailand in 1971 it seemed that Thai Buddha Sticks were everywhere, and although I didn't travel north of Bangkok, as I was meandering my way down towards Malaysia just about everywhere I stopped I would be invited to share a bong with the people I met. I was stuck in Sadao for a month waiting for money (they wouldn't let me into Malaysia without), and I had a good friend there who was, in theory, Hi-So, but adopted no airs and graces. Lovely guy. His name was George (pronounced Yor' with a glottal stop at the end) Na Songkla, and his father had been head honcho of the state I think. I would spend many an evening with him surrounded by serried ranks of tropical fish tanks (it was his hobby) smoking dope and drinking Mekong Whiskey. It was both normal and accepted. By contrast, about fifteen years ago when I was there (Hua Hin I think), I asked a local I'd got to know if he knew where I could buy a little grass (I still enjoy the occasional spliff), and you'd think I'd asked him where to get bulk heroin! Looked like a rabbit in the headlights. "No no no, don't know, don't know" he said. Ha! how times do change! I've never asked again, needless to say!

All you have to do is wander just about any tourist oriented town till you find the tribute bar for that fine Scotsman Bob Marley, I'm sure someone could help you out in there.

[SteeleJoe]

It's also worth remembering that the US army actually won the Vietnam war, but the politicians snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

I've spent decades studying that war and one of the few significant reasons the topic attracts me so much is the amount of misconceptions, distortions and outright lies about it that have become accepted as fact - so, ordinarily I would welcome someone writing in contradiction of conventional wisdom on the subject -- but I'm afraid I can't let that pass...while it's true that the US military (don't know why you'd leave out the tremendous valor and effectiveness of the US Marines or the USAF) never lost a significant engagement against either the NVA, the PLAF, or any combination of the two, it is ridiculous to claim we won the war. A case could perhaps be made that it was a stalemate when we proceeded to disengage, but a US victory? No.

Moreover we never would have won without a different strategy and even then...I'd go on but this post might get zapped as it is...

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

[harrry]

It's also worth remembering that the US army actually won the Vietnam war, but the politicians snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

I've spent decades studying that war and one of the few significant reasons the topic attracts me so much is the amount of misconceptions, distortions and outright lies about it that have become accepted as fact - so, ordinarily I would welcome someone writing in contradiction of conventional wisdom on the subject -- but I'm afraid I can't let that pass...while it's true that the US military (don't know why you'd leave out the tremendous valor and effectiveness of the US Marines or the USAF) never lost a significant engagement against either the NVA, the PLAF, or any combination of the two, it is ridiculous to claim we won the war. A case could perhaps be made that it was a stalemate when we proceeded to disengage, but a US victory? No.

Moreover we never would have won without a different strategy and even then...I'd go on but this post might get zapped as it is...

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

I love the fact that everyone forgets the loss of life and injuries sustained by the Australians who fought from the very beginning of the conflict. Many of them are still suffering the effects especially of the own goal played by the US of deploying Agent Orange and other chemicals.

I still think the war was wrong but ALL those who fought ( for whichever side) deserve respect.

[SteeleJoe]

apI love the fact that everyone forgets the loss of life and injuries sustained by the Australians who fought from the very beginning of the conflict.

I certainly haven't forgotten. However, given that while man for man some of the Aussie troops were the most effective troops in that theater, at a peak the ANZUS ( you did some forgetting yourself) troop levels was I believe less than 5% of US numbers (and even lesser percentage of South Vietnamese - and both Thai and Korean contributions were larger than that of ANZUS) so while their efforts and sacrifice should never be disregarded, diminished or forgotten, it's not surprising if they aren't as often referred to...

PS: Australia isn't quite innocent of involvement with Agent Orange.

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Edited March 8, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[harrry]

Bringing the topic back on track it is interesting to reflect on some of the conflicts and changes that happened over the period of the 60s an70s which I think cover the period of the main hippie trail. Some may like to comment on the effects on their travels.In our region THe Chinese riots in KL and the insurrection mainly in the north of Malasia and the South of Thailand. The "communists" in the North of Thailand, Vietnam Laos and Cambodia. India and Pakistan (several times) Afghanistan...Afghan v Afghan, Afghan V Russia, Afghan v The west. Iran v Iraq Iran.

I travelled through most of those areas at some time or other in the period and I wonder if anyone has some stories about how it affected them.

[cooked]

I often thought about the relatively innocent guys that went to Vietnam and made their first contacts with hallucinogenic drugs, prostitutes and the deadly rest of every day life out there. They went back to the US of A, completely f##d up and became a part of society. The Vietnamese won on that level as well, the USA was never the same again.

I lost contact with the guys I knew that went there (no Facebook then) but I often think of them.

Charles Manson ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson ) put an end to peace and love, the returning veterans did the rest.

[SteeleJoe]

I often thought about the relatively innocent guys that went to Vietnam and made their first contacts with hallucinogenic drugs, prostitutes and the deadly rest of every day life out there. They went back to the US of A, completely f##d up and became a part of society. The Vietnamese won on that level as well, the USA was never the same again.

I lost contact with the guys I knew that went there (no Facebook then) but I often think of them.

Charles Manson ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson ) put an end to peace and love, the returning veterans did the rest.

Oh dear...

* Cannabis and opiates were the drug of availability and choice in SEA.

* The mentally damaged Vietnam Vet (as I've written before on this forum) is largely a myth engendered and propagated by Hollywood and crap novels.

* To claim that Charles Manson what you say is absurdly simplistic and inaccurate: first of all, the "Peace and Love" period was almost entirely an invention of the press and a popular conceit based on some romantic rhetoric by Hippies. In fact there was LOADS of crime and social ugliness that did not abate in any appreciable way during that time. Moreover, by the time by the time that Manson and his crew committed their crimes we'd had race riots, the murders of both Kennedys and Martin Luther King Jr and years of televised horror and brutality in Southeast Asia.

Beyond it being false, it's truly ugly to blame Vietnam Vets for the end of that mythological period and to pait them as accomplices (unwitting or not) to Manson. (It's almost as ugly to claim that the damage to US society was welcome result for the Vietnamese and can be regarded as a victory for them).)

[cooked]

I often thought about the relatively innocent guys that went to Vietnam and made their first contacts with hallucinogenic drugs, prostitutes and the deadly rest of every day life out there. They went back to the US of A, completely f##d up and became a part of society. The Vietnamese won on that level as well, the USA was never the same again.

I lost contact with the guys I knew that went there (no Facebook then) but I often think of them.

Charles Manson ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson ) put an end to peace and love, the returning veterans did the rest.

Oh dear...

* Cannabis and opiates were the drug of availability and choice in SEA.

* The mentally damaged Vietnam Vet (as I've written before on this forum) is largely a myth engendered and propagated by Hollywood and crap novels.

* To claim that Charles Manson what you say is absurdly simplistic and inaccurate: first of all, the "Peace and Love" period was almost entirely an invention of the press and a popular conceit based on some romantic rhetoric by Hippies. In fact there was LOADS of crime and social ugliness that did not abate in any appreciable way during that time. Moreover, by the time by the time that Manson and his crew committed their crimes we'd had race riots, the murders of both Kennedys and Martin Luther King Jr and years of televised horror and brutality in Southeast Asia.

Beyond it being false, it's truly ugly to blame Vietnam Vets for the end of that mythological period and to pait them as accomplices (unwitting or not) to Manson. (It's almost as ugly to claim that the damage to US society was welcome result for the Vietnamese and can be regarded as a victory for them).)

I often thought about the relatively innocent guys that went to Vietnam and made their first contacts with hallucinogenic drugs, prostitutes and the deadly rest of every day life out there. They went back to the US of A, completely f##d up and became a part of society. The Vietnamese won on that level as well, the USA was never the same again.

I lost contact with the guys I knew that went there (no Facebook then) but I often think of them.

Charles Manson ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson ) put an end to peace and love, the returning veterans did the rest.

Oh dear...

* Cannabis and opiates were the drug of availability and choice in SEA.

* The mentally damaged Vietnam Vet (as I've written before on this forum) is largely a myth engendered and propagated by Hollywood and crap novels.

* To claim that Charles Manson what you say is absurdly simplistic and inaccurate: first of all, the "Peace and Love" period was almost entirely an invention of the press and a popular conceit based on some romantic rhetoric by Hippies. In fact there was LOADS of crime and social ugliness that did not abate in any appreciable way during that time. Moreover, by the time by the time that Manson and his crew committed their crimes we'd had race riots, the murders of both Kennedys and Martin Luther King Jr and years of televised horror and brutality in Southeast Asia.

Beyond it being false, it's truly ugly to blame Vietnam Vets for the end of that mythological period and to pait them as accomplices (unwitting or not) to Manson. (It's almost as ugly to claim that the damage to US society was welcome result for the Vietnamese and can be regarded as a victory for them).)

Sitting in the UK at the time, we all knew it: after Manson did what he did, the Peace and Love thing was ended. We became political activists which meant we got laid more often but Manson certainly did it for me and quite a few others. I was in the US in 67 and again in 69 and saw what happened to friends that went to Vietnam. I'm not blaming the vets, but most of them had some kind of dependence problem when they came back.