Thais Score Lowest In T O E F L

[youngXpat]

Many retirees from English speaking countries would embrace teaching if it was allowed.

There are between 3 to 6 million long term foreign residents (depending on source), yet they cannot be used to help teach.

Why do you think career driving lorries/building houses/running a business or whatever would enable one to TEACH English?

You make the same mistake that the Thais seem to make. A native ability to speak a language does not mean that one can teach that language in any meaningful sense.

At least they would be able to speak the language they are teaching. Becoming a good teacher in Thailand is on the job training for the most part. As I said in my previous post, some of the best teachers I have ever met in this country had no formal training in education when they started. They understood Thai culture and found out they had a knack for teaching. Some just have the gift, others like me have to work hard at it.

It really can not get any worse than it already is so what's the harm in trying?

I agree IF and Only IF the person was able to be understood when speaking English. I have spoken with many people from the southern USA and from the UK that I had to ask them to repeat themselves several times before i could understand what they have said. Someone like this would do more harm than good.

Retirees with an easily understandable accent teaching English would at the very least give the students exposure to spoken English which they are not getting now. I know 4 different Thai English teachers here and only one can converse in English. The only reason she can converse in English is she has spent several years in the USA and Canada as a nanny after she graduated with a degree in English from a Thai university.

And natives from southern USA and the UK are hard to understand? WOW, what a statement! I suppose only natives from North America speak clearly are easy to understand. I wonder where you are from.

[ragamuffin]

Yes, they are. Especially for learners of that language.

[youngXpat]

Yes, they are. Especially for learners of that language.

Well I am from neither of those countries aforementioned and I agree to a certain extent that the 'southern twang' accent from the states is hard to understand and indeed the northern English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish accents take a lot of getting used to as well as the Aussies. I have taught at many schools here and in SE Asia and I have to tell you that many teachers from North America have been 'let go' cos of their desire to only speak their version of the language, you know, a lot of slang and speaking to quickly, which I must admit, ALL natives are guilty of sometimes. What I'm saying is please don't generalise by saying that the north American accent/version of English is better/easier than others. I have heard some very softly spoken teachers from ALL native countries. Surely a good teacher, regardless of nationality will slow down, speak clearer and make him/herself understood.

[chooka]

Just heard on the Australian news that Australian companies are planning to set up call centres in Thailand and the Phillipines. Without trying to seem racist and I apologise if I come across that way but I hope they have a very good grasp of the english language.

At the moment if you call a utilities company in Australia you are on hold for up to an hour and then finally get someone in India. Indians have an extreemly poor grasp of the language, you can't understand them and they can't understand you. You end up tearing your hair out and throwing the phone across the room after an hour of trying to explain that you simply want your water or gas connected to your home. Thais are going to have to speak a lot clearer than the Indians.

[chooka]

Sorry to be blunt...but, people who encourage Thais to say CENTRANNNN and MICHANNNN and dont know an L from an R and think its cute are also a problem.

Farang sit idly while their Thai lovers speak English like a 5 year old. I never hear people correct them.

Remember when FOX channel arrived in Thailand and they showed hundreds of Thais saying FOX as Fuk and Fuuuk.

Education starts in the home and then in school then in everyday life.

My wife speaks fairly decent English but when I do correct her she gets angry and shoots back at me that i do not speak Thai perfectly either so I gave up trying to help her. On the flip side I have to have my kids help me with my Thai pronunciation because my wife won't do it.

We live identical lives. Apart from the fact that my wife has never spoken Thai to me (Accassionally at me but not to me) my son actually teaches me thai.

Edited March 1, 2013 by chooka

[ragamuffin]

How ignorant can you be? Indians don't have a poor grasp of English, they simply speak another variety of the language.

Edited March 1, 2013 by ragamuffin

[Phatcharanan]

How ignorant can you be? Indians don't have a poor grasp of English, they simply speak another variety of the language.

Which is often not understood hence why schools generally ask for 'Native English Speakers'.

[Briggsy]

It is important that posters understand the TOEFL is a test of academic and formal English. It does not test and is not designed to test simple communication and everyday speaking skills.

It is a test to see how well you would cope if you had to study a subject at university level using English as the medium.

It is weighted towards comprehension of written texts using formal academic English. There are listening parts also though. However these also use formal academic English.

If you are discussing TOEFL, there is little point referencing tour guides and bar workers who may well be able to communicate sufficiently and fluently using a speaking vocab of 600 words but would do very badly on a TOEFL test.

[MisterE]

"being a native english speaker alone does not automatically qualify anybody as an english language teacher. backpackers teaching for a short period - without having any qualification except being native english speakers - is worrying as well"

Totally agree. Some years back I worked in London as an IT consultant. My colleague, who is English, asked me when he should use 'effect' and 'affect'! So much for native speakers...

It may not "automatically qualify" a person, but being a native English speaker is a big PLUS. Backpackers could prove to be as good or better than trained teachers. Teaching, like parenting, is more of an innate skill than a learned skill. Growing up, I went to 11 schools in 13 years in 6 countries, and I know first hand how terrible some tenured teachers can be. More often, the un-certified teachers did the better job of engaging and challenging students - than oldsters who couldn't be fired because of seniority and strong unions.

But do I think I could construct a teaching plan, know how to get across the concept of tenses, conditional clauses, explain grammar exceptions, get some one to understand the differences between verbs, adjectives and nouns?

Do I have knowlege of class management techniques, current educational theories, how to manage a class of 50 students?

If you're doing it the way you're describing, teaching grammar, then you'e doing it wrong. This is what the Thai teachers do and why Thais can't speak English. They need practice using the language, not lectures on grammar. It's really not difficult to come up with activities that force the students to use the language both in and out of class. You don't need a degree in education to create good communicative, student centered lessons. Anyone with a decent head on their shoulders can do it, with some effort, and some have a natural gift for it that they don't discover until they stand in front of their first class.

As for classroom management that is a problem unique to Thai students because they are lazy slackers. Chinese, Burmese, Nepalese, Indian, etc. students hang on every word teachers say, ask questions and are extremely well behaved. Classroom management for these nationalities is non-existant. Since it's pretty much unique to Thailand and crappy inner city schools in the West it's a skill that can really only be acquired on the job.

How much of your education do you use in your daily work for whatever you do? Most professionals I have worked with such as engineers (of all disciplines), architects, code compliance inspectors, land use planners, etc. find very little of what they learned in college useful (except for math in the case of engineers who have to do complex calculations but even then they're all using scientific calculators and computer programs) in their day-to-day work duties.

Edited March 1, 2013 by MisterE

[Markaew]

The problem is Thai schools like to boast about the native speakers on their staff but the Thai teachers do 90% of the English classes. Also, the schools have a horrible attitude toward the foreign teachers. Foreign teachers are window dressing to bring in the students. Bait and switch.

I'm out of positive votes for the day but I could not agree more. The treatment of foreign teacher here by Thai school admin is appalling yet, they stick them up at the front of every assembly and in photos on their websites to show off their white faced teachers. The white face teachers bring in the kids whose parents pay the big bucks then, are shat on in the staff room in ways that incompetent Thai teachers would never be treated.

Don't even get me started on staff room politics where jealous Thai and Filipino teachers take every opportunity to undermine their foreign colleagues and make them look bad to the bosses. All of this for their own self interest and perceived personal gain and all to the detriment of the students' welfare and education.

Dead on the mark. Perfectly said.

[rbrooks]

How about the lowest in the world. I recall trying to have a conversation in English with some Thai students proudly professing they have a major in English from one of their prestigious colleges. I needed a translator just to understand their attempt at English.

Dude, maybe you should have tried some Thai

Dude, I do speak limited Thai but they were in my country so they were the Farlang trying to speak the native tongue and I never majored in Thai language in college.

[culicine]

The only way to quickly improve the situation is for the government to through a lot more money into english programs at all levels of formal education, and paying foreign (qualified) teachers a decent salary to teach here. Waiting until university to teach academic english is too late in my book.

I think you mean "throw" not "through" but, anyways, you are right. It will never happen of course because an educated population would start asking questions and challenging the powers that be e.g. the Bangkok elite.

Correct...

[atyclb]

When those teaching english can barely speak the language then it doesn't look bright. Those with kids being taught english by thais at school will know what I mean.

The results do not surprise me one iota. Of all 58 countries in Asia,Thailand is 56th in English proficiency.

And when you have the entire population with an average IQ level 10% below the likes of Singapore, Hong Kong and markedly below other ASEAN countries what hope have you got.

It is a simple fact that to teach English effectively the teach should be a native English speaker.

My personal belief (shared by the majority of Caucasians who have been here for any length of time) is that Thais and Thailand are so xenophobic that there is almost a an unwritten policy not to encourage the children to learn English.

The average hooker has a better level of English proficiency than the majority of Thai teachers.

I think you could be on to something. Put bar girls to work in banks and they will be very proficient asking customers if they want deposit short time or long time. Me take care, you deposit.

[Payboy]

The average hooker has a better level of English proficiency than the majority of Thai teachers.

I think you could be on to something. Put bar girls to work in banks and they will be very proficient asking customers if they want deposit short time or long time. Me take care, you deposit.

They could even give such banks a modern sounding name like SpermBank.

[atyclb]

When you become proficient in Thai you soon realize many Thai's do not even have a decent grasp on their own language.

[culicine]

Just heard on the Australian news that Australian companies are planning to set up call centres in Thailand and the Phillipines. Without trying to seem racist and I apologise if I come across that way but I hope they have a very good grasp of the english language.

At the moment if you call a utilities company in Australia you are on hold for up to an hour and then finally get someone in India. Indians have an extreemly poor grasp of the language, you can't understand them and they can't understand you. You end up tearing your hair out and throwing the phone across the room after an hour of trying to explain that you simply want your water or gas connected to your home. Thais are going to have to speak a lot clearer than the Indians.

There's the problem. Thais with great english skills don't work in call centres (or become school teachers for that matter). Their earning capacity is very high and won't generally work for the paltry salaries of call centres.

I'm not too fussed about accents. As long as someone can speak clearly and can communicate, that should be the main goal of second language learners. Wealthy parents obsessed about accent send their kids to the US for a year....they quickly pick up an American accent...some do at least. Actually the clearest english I've heard was on TV - some germans reporting news in english.....it was strange to listen to someone and not being about to tell where they come from. There was no regional accent.

[culicine]

Sorry to be blunt...but, people who encourage Thais to say CENTRANNNN and MICHANNNN and dont know an L from an R and think its cute are also a problem.

Farang sit idly while their Thai lovers speak English like a 5 year old. I never hear people correct them.

Remember when FOX channel arrived in Thailand and they showed hundreds of Thais saying FOX as Fuk and Fuuuk.

Education starts in the home and then in school then in everyday life.

My wife speaks fairly decent English but when I do correct her she gets angry and shoots back at me that i do not speak Thai perfectly either so I gave up trying to help her. On the flip side I have to have my kids help me with my Thai pronunciation because my wife won't do it.

We live identical lives. Apart from the fact that my wife has never spoken Thai to me (Accassionally at me but not to me) my son actually teaches me thai.

My son usually slaps his forehead in dismay at my lame attempts to speak Thai with him lol...so usually I speak english with him, and he speaks Thai or english with his mother.

[dudeinthailand]

I wonder why the article did not post the average scores of all the countires in ASEAN. Particulary the Philippines. There are thousands or Filipino teachers here and in other countries. I wonder if they deliberety left their scores out or if it was an oversight....

[FWIW]

But do I think I could construct a teaching plan, know how to get across the concept of tenses, conditional clauses, explain grammar exceptions, get some one to understand the differences between verbs, adjectives and nouns?

Do I have knowlege of class management techniques, current educational theories, how to manage a class of 50 students?

If you're doing it the way you're describing, teaching grammar, then you'e doing it wrong.

How much of your education do you use in your daily work for whatever you do? Most professionals I have worked with such as engineers (of all disciplines), architects, code compliance inspectors, land use planners, etc. find very little of what they learned in college useful (except for math in the case of engineers who have to do complex calculations but even then they're all using scientific calculators and computer programs) in their day-to-day work duties.

Read my post again. I am not doing it any way. I don't teach.

As for your second point, I am probably the most wrong person you could ask that question to - because the answer is I use pretty damn near every scrap of what I studied in college - and a whole load more - every day.

[witsawakorn]

I would have thought Thai students were WORSE than this. The stupid systems the Government has for people who ACTAULLY speak english is terrible. You have to LEAVE thailand to get a visa for a few months to come back and TEACH THais english. Then the money you earn you use agaoin to leave the country to get another Vidsa to come back. this is the case for most people I speak to or they teach ILLEGALLY on retirement visas. getting a proper work visa is hard because the incentive to be paid a low wage is not really there.

The government if it wants PROPER ENGLISH TEACHERS needs to change its visa policy otherwise thais will be going back to living under banana palms and climbing cocoumt trees... or chasing faranbngs dfor income as they are proficient at.

I have travelled EXTENSIVELY and Thailand with SO MANY TOURISTS lags behind the world in Elglish

If you think the level of Elglish (sic) in Thailand is the worst in the world try going to places like Venezuela in South America

[Fookhaht]

Sorry to be blunt...but, people who encourage Thais to say CENTRANNNN and MICHANNNN and dont know an L from an R and think its cute are also a problem.

Farang sit idly while their Thai lovers speak English like a 5 year old. I never hear people correct them.

Remember when FOX channel arrived in Thailand and they showed hundreds of Thais saying FOX as Fuk and Fuuuk.

Education starts in the home and then in school then in everyday life.

My wife speaks fairly decent English but when I do correct her she gets angry and shoots back at me that i do not speak Thai perfectly either so I gave up trying to help her. On the flip side I have to have my kids help me with my Thai pronunciation because my wife won't do it.

I've been here 10 years, and I've yet to meet a Thai who can withstand correction of their grammar during normal conversation throughout the day. Main cultural problem is loss of face. Heck, even a native English speaker probably could not put up with it on an extended basis either. Too disruptive for normal communication to carry on.

[teacher17]

It certainly doesn't surprise me that Thai student's get the lowest scores on the TOEFL. The school I teach at is in a very rural area and in the beginning they paraded me around like some sort of mascot. But once I started complaining about the late salary and no money for English textbooks, they didn't treat me so great after that.

But next year they will start an English program, thanks to a man who lives in the community and wants to "give back" by helping student's, He has been pressuring the local government for 10 years to get an English program at the primary school. They told him that Thai student's should learn Thai first, and THEN learn English, but he told them that it is better if the child learns English from when they are young. Finally they agreed and hired me...though I may be gone from that school soon enough as I will end up looking for better teaching opportunities.

Anyway, my personal opinion as to why student's don't do well in English:

1) Nationalistic views...as many other's have said. Thai's are very nationalistic, sometimes too much so in my opinion...I think this is the main reason they don't want to have another official language.

2) Lazy students...HOWEVER...from my own experience, it seems that student's are lazy because many of them don't anticipate going beyond studying M. 3 (particularly teenage boys..) Also, the parent's do not always encourage the students like they should. I've also been told from teachers that some of the reasons why students go to school at all around here is because they want to get out of helping their parents on the farm or family business. Of course...I live in a rural area, so not sure how it would be in, for example, Bangkok.

3) The local tesabaan here does not use it's money wisely. And it is known to everyone that their is corruption...need I say more about that?

4) Lack of qualified native English teacher's. Although...I don't think that is the biggest issue personally. But it IS an issue...what truly qualified teacher really wants to work for 30,000 baht/month, especially in a rural area?? It seems to me that they should pay us teachers who work in a rural area MORE simply because not as many foreigners want to stay there, at least for extended periods.

Basically, Thailand has a lot on it's plate if they want to fix the mess they call education...

I will say though, that some of the best Thai English speaker's I have encountered have not even finished M.3...instead they work in the tourism industry and speak with many foreigners every day. Immersion is truly the best way to learn to speak any language.

[kaorop]

I have some reasons:

A Thai written English book for 4+ yrs

Emma and Tigar are eating the banana.

Bobo, Tigar and Janet are acting the soldiers.

The kite is on the sky.

Tigar is jumping to the swimming pool.

Tigar is walking follow a turtle.

It's a very nice looking book with colorful pictures but,

how in the world can it be printed and sold with such basic mistakes?

I would like to see the Thai teachers of English take one of those toeic/toefl/ielts tests and see the scores, that would be the real eye opener.

Edited March 2, 2013 by kaorop

[spidermike007]

When those teaching english can barely speak the language then it doesn't look bright. Those with kids being taught english by thais at school will know what I mean.

The results do not surprise me one iota. Of all 58 countries in Asia,Thailand is 56th in English proficiency.

And when you have the entire population with an average IQ level 10% below the likes of Singapore, Hong Kong and markedly below other ASEAN countries what hope have you got.

It is a simple fact that to teach English effectively the teach should be a native English speaker.

My personal belief (shared by the majority of Caucasians who have been here for any length of time) is that Thais and Thailand are so xenophobic that there is almost a an unwritten policy not to encourage the children to learn English.

The average hooker has a better level of English proficiency than the majority of Thai teachers.

Yes. Me love you tonight, and me forget you tomorrow. Me love you long time handsome. The entire educational system needs to be completely dismantled, and rebuilt from scratch, using expertise from all of the neighboring countries with the highest scores. Otherwise Thailand risks becoming far more irrelevant than it is today, not only on the world stage, but also in ASEAN. That is the direction they are moving in. Toward a great degree of irrelevancy.

Mike Macarelli

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[tideout]

Sorry if this minor rant is a repeated rant but after looking at a number of the ads for teachers located in the usual places I'm not surprised at the results of these test scores.

I'm an experienced teacher with legit credentials & experience within ESL. The issue? I'm over 50 and some of the ads indicate an unwilingness to hire me due to age. Maybe these are more negotiable than they appear but putting an age limit of 45 on teachers is so stupid I don't know where to begin.

Until or unless people get it out of their heads that being over 35, 40, 50 etc.. is not a problem then it may be a long road out of the cycle of Khao San recruitment errors...........

[Fookhaht]

The issue? I'm over 50 and some of the ads indicate an unwilingness to hire me due to age. Maybe these are more negotiable than they appear but putting an age limit of 45 on teachers is so stupid I don't know where to begin.

Until or unless people get it out of their heads that being over 35, 40, 50 etc.. is not a problem then it may be a long road out of the cycle of Khao San recruitment errors...........

Sorry, but you're just not going to be able to compete with a sexy 22-year-old farang college graduate to whom the young co-eds will flock after classes for their autograph. The young instructor's area of degree doesn't matter. They'll hire engineering, history, biology, and political studies graduates to teach oral English courses in Western Languages departments. Heck, our uni. hired an English teacher with only a high school diploma. Because of her flashy personality, she was the Belle of the Ball for two semesters until the few serious students complained that they weren't learning anything in her courses.

One shouldn't be surprised, however. It's the same culture which advertises in The Bangkok Post and The Nation classifieds for corporate secretarial positions: "Young, attractive female, 23-27 years old, 150-165cm, under 60 kg., no experience necessary....."

It's all about attracting students and their parents for superficial reasons, not because they'll get a quality education. I work in a government university, and the standards are no higher than that. Period. No wonder we can't produce teachers who can speak, write or teach English.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Fookhaht

[culicine]

Sorry if this minor rant is a repeated rant but after looking at a number of the ads for teachers located in the usual places I'm not surprised at the results of these test scores.

I'm an experienced teacher with legit credentials & experience within ESL. The issue? I'm over 50 and some of the ads indicate an unwilingness to hire me due to age. Maybe these are more negotiable than they appear but putting an age limit of 45 on teachers is so stupid I don't know where to begin.

Until or unless people get it out of their heads that being over 35, 40, 50 etc.. is not a problem then it may be a long road out of the cycle of Khao San recruitment errors...........

That has some truth. However I think a major reason is that there really are not that many experienced Western teachers working in Thailand these days. I'm in my 13th year as a teacher here and your average salary has not changed one iota - stillaround 25-30K. In that time span, living costs have risen dramatically - 91 petrol was 14 baht a litre when I came here, and food is also much more expensive now. There really is no financial incentive now for foreigners to set roots in these parts. This is one reason that schools are using agencies now - fresh faced (mostly backpackers) who have done a TEFL and have come for a working holiday for a year or two, then go home. Most of them that I know just do the minimum to get through the day and don't seem to want to go the extra mile for the students. That's not always true, but as a generalization it is.

[MisterE]

Sorry if this minor rant is a repeated rant but after looking at a number of the ads for teachers located in the usual places I'm not surprised at the results of these test scores.

I'm an experienced teacher with legit credentials & experience within ESL. The issue? I'm over 50 and some of the ads indicate an unwilingness to hire me due to age. Maybe these are more negotiable than they appear but putting an age limit of 45 on teachers is so stupid I don't know where to begin.

Until or unless people get it out of their heads that being over 35, 40, 50 etc.. is not a problem then it may be a long road out of the cycle of Khao San recruitment errors...........

It doesn't matter what they say in the ads, it matters far more what they see in the picture you send them. Also, it matters how hard up for teachers they are. Everything is flexible but, with your qualifications, I'm sure you're not even interested in replying to those crap jobs in various backwaters around the country. You should be in the international gigs or at least at a good private school where your age will be much less of an issue.

[MisterE]

Also, the parent's do not always encourage the students like they should. I've also been told from teachers that some of the reasons why students go to school at all around here is because they want to get out of helping their parents on the farm or family business. Of course...I live in a rural area, so not sure how it would be in, for example, Bangkok.

You raise an excellent point here that should have been raised long ago. Particularly in the "better" schools, especially private schools, parents seem to feel that once they fork over the money for tuition they can wash their hands of the matter and their children's education is completely in the hands of the school. There is very little concept of how truly getting a good education requires the parents to support the school and teachers and engage their children to learn at home.

One rare exception to this pretty much universal phenomenon was teaching math at a private school to grades 2 and 3. One student's father was an engineer and his father would sit with him every night working on math with him. He was already 4 grades ahead of his classmates and because of it caused a major classroom management headache for me. He would race through an activity that took the rest of the students half a class to complete in 5-minutes, get bored and become disruptive. I quickly realized I needed to work a bit harder to keep this kid busy so, I started photocopying worksheets from one of my colleague's grade 7 (M. 1) textbook and as soon as I dropped one of those on him he would shut up and get right to work.

Teaching math is one of the most rewarding experiences I've ever had teaching in Thailand. All the BS that teaching English requires goes out the window because it's liner and has immediate application to their daily lives. Mind you, there is a very big English teaching component when teaching math to Thai young learners in English but, we learn it as it comes up and it's not the focus of the class.

By the way, the parent teacher conference I had with this student and his family was probably the best I've ever had. His father teared up when I complimented him on his work with his son and told him how far ahead of the rest of the class he was. At the end of the semester his father gave me a gold-plated pen that I later learned must have cost well over 10,000 Baht. Sometimes, just sometimes, the job has it's rewarding moments and you must take solace in those fleeting moments because 99% of the rest of it is running around to put out one fire after another. Planning ahead has very little value and well over half the BS a teacher has to deal with in this country could be eliminated with a little pro-active planning.

Thanks for raising this important issue, good post!

Edited March 3, 2013 by MisterE

[caulfield2]

Just heard on the Australian news that Australian companies are planning to set up call centres in Thailand and the Phillipines. Without trying to seem racist and I apologise if I come across that way but I hope they have a very good grasp of the english language.

At the moment if you call a utilities company in Australia you are on hold for up to an hour and then finally get someone in India. Indians have an extreemly poor grasp of the language, you can't understand them and they can't understand you. You end up tearing your hair out and throwing the phone across the room after an hour of trying to explain that you simply want your water or gas connected to your home. Thais are going to have to speak a lot clearer than the Indians.

There's the problem. Thais with great english skills don't work in call centres (or become school teachers for that matter). Their earning capacity is very high and won't generally work for the paltry salaries of call centres.

I'm not too fussed about accents. As long as someone can speak clearly and can communicate, that should be the main goal of second language learners. Wealthy parents obsessed about accent send their kids to the US for a year....they quickly pick up an American accent...some do at least. Actually the clearest english I've heard was on TV - some germans reporting news in english.....it was strange to listen to someone and not being about to tell where they come from. There was no regional accent.

For the Philippines, the normally call center salary range is 15-25,000 php, depending on your city. Most of them are located in Manila and Baguio.

That's roughly $375-$625 per month, depending on experience and ability.

I would guess the Thai salaries would be somewhere in the vicinity of 13-17,000 baht per month....maybe 20,000 in Bangkok.

Anyone have any firsthand knowledge? At any rate, those salaries won't attract anyone but recent university graduates (mostly English majors) in their 20's.