Fish Farming ... When It Goes Belly Up

[DonaldBattles]

When you say your bottom is rock, what does this exactly mean?

[canuckamuck]

Seriously you could throw 50 kg in there and not hurt the fish.

1 kg would have no effect

I put 1kg in with my fish in a 6000 liter tank

[ray23]

When you say your bottom is rock, what does this exactly mean?

The bottom is covered with big volcanic rock, primarily it's really deep adn that is why we hit the sring water. Some mud but, not much. One of the reason w can't use nets in it and do hand fishing. The net gets caught the jagged edges of the rock

[RedBullHorn]

Well I did the second salt threatment one kilo, per week. Die off slowed down so I put in another kilo today. How far can I go with this until I might damage the pond? So at this point three kilos of salt.

Staying up with dolomite.

1. How big is you pond, size,

2. water depth, hight measurement from mud bed.

Provide the above mention information so i could give you the appropriate usage...

The pond is 1/4 Ria about 1& 1/2 meter depth. Never had salt added before startimg this time. Just an aside th bottom is rock not mud

Thanks

Ray

If you are doing commercial level intensive farming of Clarias catfish, your size and depth can allow you to stock up to 10'000 fingerlings maximum. Tilapia fingerlings is 2'000 maximum. Salt usage is 1 sack per month for 2 months on intensive farming of catfish and 6-7 months on intensive farming of Tilapia.

Semi intensive farming, just half the amount.

Edited April 4, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[ray23]

We did 2,000 last year about a 1,000 this year. Sound like I better take it easy with the salt as he fish are Talapia.

Edited April 4, 2013 by ray23

[RedBullHorn]

Water Balance in Fish (understanding salt effect on freshwater fish)

In fresh-water fish, water regulation is the reverse of marine species. Salt is constantly being lost through the gills, and large amounts of water enter through the fish's skin and gills (Figure 2). This is because the salt concentration in a fish (approximately 0.5 percent) is higher than the salt concentration of the water in which it lives. Because the fish's body is contantly struggling to prevent the “diffusion” of water into its body, large amounts of water are excreted by the kidneys. As a result, the salt concentration of the urine is very low. By understanding the need to maintain a water balance in freshwater fish, one can understand why using salt during transport is beneficial to fish.

Figure 1. Direction of water, ammonia, and salt movements into and out of saltwater fish. Saltwater fish drink large amounts of water and excrete small amounts of concentrated urine.



Figure 2. Direction of water, ammonia, and salt movement into and out of freshwater fish. Freshwater fish do not drink water, but excrete large amounts of dilute urine.



http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/as/as-503.html'>A Fish Farmer's Guide to Understanding Water Quality

ray23...If you are doing 1'000 Tilapia from your previous 2'000, then just half the amount needed from 2 sacks, cut down to 1 sack. 1 kg is far too little.

Edited April 4, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[ray23]

Water Balance in Fish (understanding salt effect on freshwater fish)

In fresh-water fish, water regulation is the reverse of marine species. Salt is constantly being lost through the gills, and large amounts of water enter through the fish's skin and gills (Figure 2). This is because the salt concentration in a fish (approximately 0.5 percent) is higher than the salt concentration of the water in which it lives. Because the fish's body is contantly struggling to prevent the “diffusion” of water into its body, large amounts of water are excreted by the kidneys. As a result, the salt concentration of the urine is very low. By understanding the need to maintain a water balance in freshwater fish, one can understand why using salt during transport is beneficial to fish.

Figure 1. Direction of water, ammonia, and salt movements into and out of saltwater fish. Saltwater fish drink large amounts of water and excrete small amounts of concentrated urine.

AS-503_as5031.gif

Figure 2. Direction of water, ammonia, and salt movement into and out of freshwater fish. Freshwater fish do not drink water, but excrete large amounts of dilute urine.

AS-503_as5032.gif

A Fish Farmer's Guide to Understanding Water Quality

ray23...If you are doing 1'000 Tilapia from your previous 2'000, then just half the amount needed from 2 sacks, cut down to 1 sack. 1 kg is far too little.

One sack is how many kilos? The one I bought was five kilos.

Do they actually make a test kit so yuo can see if it's in balance yourself?

Since I'm in Udon, pretty easy to get it tested. But. sometimes they are way off. Once they told me to pump the small pond I didnlyt and everything was just fine.

Dom you are the only who has actually seen my operation, what are your thoughts?

[RedBullHorn]

ray23... Let me tell you this, in my entire time as a catfish farmer, I've only been to the fishery department here in Chiang Rai only ONCE (they are in sub district Wiang Chai). There i met a few officials and i soon realise that they are mostly people with very little experiance in practical but go by the book type full of theory. A few sales representatives from Betagro, Cargills, CP... all graduated in animals science with degrees also told me the truth, What they learnt are fundamental, but in the REAL world, it is not the same, especially when capital funds are involved. They learnt the most as sales reps. out in the field, gathering comments and feedback from the REAL farmers who are putting in money to their operations.

The millions of ฿฿฿ that I'm investing and the milions of ฿฿฿ that I'm earning, I'm the REAL deal... after what I've been through.

What test kits ?... I'll tell you the only test kit i ever own is for testing PH, THE REST ARE ALL BASED ON EXPERIANCE !

That's why i don't have the salinity answer to cycloneJ. Just like what canuckamuck wrote, It is all based on experiance.

I've shared enought, you're on your own now.

P.S: A sack of salt is roughly 40kg.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/612480-farm-photos/?p=6269945

Edited April 4, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[canuckamuck]

RBH I tried to find that fisheries place in Wiang Chai, couldn't locate it. Do you remember how to find it?

[DonaldBattles]

Have drained my upper pond. Plan to contact Nam Sai and try to buy all male red tailapi when the rainy season starts. The local restaurants seem to favor th red tailapi. Not sure they can handle all that I have so will have to get the wholsalers to buy them. Have you ever purchased fry or fingerlings from Nam Si. Getting them to Chiang Rai will be a problem.

[ray23]

RBH, I really appreciate all your help, you have amswered my questions. I know I would not get that at the fishery in Udon. Their plan is all based on what Thai farmers do. Which would include a lot that we need to do..

40 KGS, got it

Thanks

Ray

Edited April 5, 2013 by ray23

[RedBullHorn]

Have drained my upper pond. Plan to contact Nam Sai and try to buy all male red tailapi when the rainy season starts. The local restaurants seem to favor th red tailapi. Not sure they can handle all that I have so will have to get the wholsalers to buy them. Have you ever purchased fry or fingerlings from Nam Si. Getting them to Chiang Rai will be a problem.

They do send fingerlings by air freight. Airport to airport.

[RedBullHorn]

RBH I tried to find that fisheries place in Wiang Chai, couldn't locate it. Do you remember how to find it?

Route 1299 from Wiang Chai town center along the big red roof of Wiang Chai market, end of the road is a Y-juction switching you to Route 1152 and continue for 4-500m. The Fishery Dept. is on the LEFT facing Nong Luang on the opposite.

The big shop opposite the dept. has good quality Big Oui catfish fingerlings, also have other assorted fishes and froglets. I was a regular customer for 2 years straight (6 years ago) until the passing of the ex-owner (car accident). Now his brother took over the business.

Edited April 5, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[canuckamuck]

Thank you very much.

[RedBullHorn]

You owe me 2 bottles of Chang for this, I should collect...

[DonaldBattles]

For all of your help you deserve a free big bottle of Chang at Don's Cafe. We are closed now except for Saturdays. Will close each of the last 2 Saturdays in April.

[RedBullHorn]

Thanks Don, I'm a sneaky bugger, I'll be there in your Cafe soon (hopefully you won't be in for the day) and tell you staffs

" Don said two bottles...call him~"

Edited April 5, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[canuckamuck]

You owe me 2 bottles of Chang for this, I should collect...

I was thinking I should come up and have a look see at your operation some day. I would indeed bring you a pair of chang.

[DonaldBattles]

Two bottles for 2 good guys. Come and get it. Call me 081 894 6401.

[ray23]

Two bottles for 2 good guys. Come and get it. Call me 081 894 6401.

Make it to Udon I will chip in

[ray23]

Looks like 25 Kilos did the trick the die off is over. Now I will justr add some each week. Thanks for all the help.

[ray23]

Well ran into a new one, a very large white bird that really likes ort fry in the floating nets. So I bought some top nets that have large holes in it the wouldn't keep the fry in. So big enough to get the food in easily, But, to small for the bird to get to the water..Cheap fix 360 baht. so w will ddd those over the tops of th flaoting pens

Losing the fry is not a big deal, but all that food costs is a big deal.

It also looks like I may need to throw a bit of salt into those pins separately. started seeing a few floating with no eye balls. That is a really confined area.

So we will start over now 800 fry into four floating pens. The plan is to release them gardually as the bigger fish are caught. Since they eat a different size food. This has been a real adventure and I'm enjoying it.

The cat fish are hapy as can be, they grow a lot faster I have them on the larger 25% food already. When the bird comes to their pond they dive ubder the floating vegetation. No breakfat there fo Mr. Bird

I will be putting a night light above their pond next week. so I can cut down feed cost Cut off the oxygen to that pond, no problem at all. So had been paying for something I didn't even need.

My worm farm for bait is working really well, thanks to worm farmer, so I should have plenty of bait and enough to start selling that on the side. They are red wrigglies grow about five inches long. So three baiting's with each worm. Now they are reproducing. Feed them the scraps from cleaning the mush rooms in the morning after grinding them up. I added a few leaves they likes that. Then I tried some grass they like that as well.

We also started giving them a little of the used mushroom soil that has saw dust in it. I think it helps them to digest,

Hired a full time guy now that I have learned the ropes a bit. So I should have some time now to ride that brand new Honda 700 sitting in it's closure

If someone had told me 12 years ago that I would be doing any of this in my retirement. I would have never believed it.

It's a real challenge to me and keeps me very busy. Retired nothing to do and not enough time to get it done

.

Edited May 2, 2013 by ray23

[RedBullHorn]

...Hired a full time guy now that I have learned the ropes a bit. So I should have some time now to ride that brand new Honda 700 sitting in it's closure

If someone had told me 12 years ago that I would be doing any of this in my retirement. I would have never believed it.

It's a real challenge to me and keeps me very busy. Retired nothing to do and not enough time to get it done

.

Well better late than never.

I discovered the opportunity when i came to Thailand at the age of 25, my wife to-be then show me her share of the family plot of land. Took me another 4 years to settle things up back home so i could finally leave Singapore and setup the farm in Thailand. I went into semi-retirement at 29 (still accepting high paying offers here and then) and fully retired at age 35, financially secure and doing what i like which is fish farming and living the life in the LOS. I'm now 42...No pressure~

Edited May 3, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[ray23]

I waited for a good solid retirement. so the farm is not pressure, somehitng to keep me busy. Something the wife can depend on.

[finnomick]

Not been on the forums for some time, so a warm hello to those who have shared information and helped out in the past. My ponds are not big enough to have any great volume of fish so I basically I am giving up trying to make money from them. I've still got a fair stock of Tilapia which are producing fry in great quantities. I did try the hormone treated variety but with still limited success, but this year we have experienced something new. Despite a lot of rain last year, three of our four ponds have actually dried up. Never had that before so we had to catch all the fish and put them together in the one deeper large pond. I've heard of people introducing Baramundi (?) at the rate of 1:20. Has anyone tried this and if so, what were the results ? Personally, I don't like the taste of Tilapia, I prefer Chon but growing these has a whole series of individual problems hence the thoughts turning to Baramundi. I know you can buy them from Nam Sai in Bangkok but would like to read other farmer's comments first. An Oz friend of mine questioned as to whether Baramundi would survive in a pond as opposed to running water. I guess breeding could alter the desired habitat so i'm throwing the subject into the open forum before I actually do anything about it. As usual, any information will be gladly and gratefully received.

[David48]

.

Welcome back finnomick.

Your post contains lots of separate issues as I see them.

1/ Tilapia which are producing fry in great quantities

Obvious issues there. Common fix is to drain the pond, treat the pond for chemicial balance and to make sure no fish species survive then then restock with the male mono sex fish of choice.

2/ My ponds are not big enough to have any great volume of fish

Not knowing the rough size of your ponds but RedBulhorn does seem to operate smaller ponds with great success with Catfish.

The Fish and Prawn Farm as a catfish pond which I reckon might be 50m x 20m

3/ I did try the hormone treated variety but with still limited success

Do I assume that the Tilapia Fry supplier supplied a mixed sex product. I remember ozzydom having issues with that ... more then once. the Fish and Prawn Farm, from what I understand has not yet had that problem ... thankfully.

4/ three of our four ponds have actually dried up.

Do you usually rely on rainfall to refill the ponds?

If so, that dependence does open up a major issue which goes to the long term stability of your operation.

5/ I've heard of people introducing Barramundi at the rate of 1:20. Has anyone tried this and if so, what were the results ?

Are you suggesting that you introduce Barramundi at the rate of 1:20 to clean up the unwanted fry? If so, with female Tilapia, you retain the original issue.

Or are the Barra to be your cash crop?

So many questions.

.

[canuckamuck]

1.You don't want fry, you want single sex ponds so that the fish grow quickly. Buying new fry is cheap.

2. Small ponds are difficult to make money with. We are working on expansion plans currently.

3. Some females will make it through the hormone process and still be girls. But the less females the better.

4. Sorry about your ponds, obviously water is the first part of fish farming

5. It would my guess that baramundi would eventually eat all the tilapia.

[David48]

5. It would my guess that baramundi would eventually eat all the tilapia.

Point #5 above interests me.

Would the introduced barramundi eat all the tilapia over time (including adults) ... or just hover up the fry?

.

[canuckamuck]

Depends on how big you let them get I suppose.

[finnomick]

Thanks for the replies, I'll try and expand on the individual problems.

Our ponds fill from underground. The water table here is so high even now with all this heat and evapouration. I reckon the water table is at about 2.5 metres below normal land surface. Obviously with the rains, the water table rises. Last year I had to erect posts with netting to keep the pond fish ' in ' and the river fish ' out ' so high was the levels in the ponds.

Our fishery ' c*cked up ' with the first lot of hormone treated tilapia. They actually sold us normal Tilapea. Not happy about that but as we all know, T.I.T. and there are no refunds or guarantees. We kept these in one pond. Then we bought another load of Tilapia, hormone treated. This time we got the correct sort and they grew very well. Then the current problem hit us with the ponds drying up. We had to put all the fish into our ' sweet water ' pond which we normally sell by the truckload. This pond is our biggest and deepest -- about 5 metres deep. Luckily we moved the fish before we lost them all. We did dredge up a few off the bottom but luckily only about 10. Now of course, with the Tilapia all together, they're breeding crazy so much so that when we went to net some for sale yesterday, we got a female who was actually laying her eggs and 2 males both with their mouths full of fry. Sad really.

We have decided to call it a day on growing fish to make money, and will just leave the Tilapia in the big pond to do their thing. As I mentioned, I don't really like the taste of Tilapia, so want to try Barramundi for my own plate. They'll have a feast with the Tilapia fry but hopefully will leave the bigger fish alone. I read somewhere that Barramundi are only worth eating after they get to about 5kg -- pretty big -- the flesh being much better. I still don't know anyone who has them. We also have our ' pet ' fish in the big pond now. it's a 7 to 8 kg Mekong catfish -- haha, the wife's father netted it a couple of days ago and thought he'd won the lottery. I bet he could see it on his plate next to a pile of chips. Saddly for him, we put it back in to carry on growing. It doesn't seem to bother any of the fish.

Our ponds are only about 15 by 12 metres and a couple of metres deep. We used to grow catfish but the locals always want to buy them small and then only pay 55 baht per kilo. They wanted about 10 fish to the kilo which as anyone knows, is a fast way to lose money. Grow them to a decent size and they don't want them. Can't win.

We'll just keep plodding on with the mushrooms, at least we make money from them but I just love to work and watch the fish. Maybe I'll embark on my covered Koi carp pond and buy a deckchair.....