British Activist Fighting To Avoid Thai Jail Term

[metisdead]

I started out editing the disguised profanity posts in this topic, that soon became too tedious. Approximately 40 posts and replies containing disguised profanities have been removed.

[GentlemanJim]

Why do almost all of the TVF posters automatically assume this admittedly liberal anti capitalist gadfly, Andy Hall, is unbiased and accurate in his reporting on Natural Fruits? Have you looked into Natural Fruits complaint against him? He has an agenda. He is paid to attack, any and all, for profit capitalist companies. That is how he makes his living. He has damaged Natural Fruits reputation and hurt their sales by his accusations. Likewise, he has damaged Thailand's reputation. What is Nautral Fruit and Thailand by extension, suppose to do? Stand by idly while their reputation and livelihood is defamed and attacked? Natural Fruit isn't a multinational conglomerate. They are a relatively small, environmentally friendly business that provides steady employment for around 500 to 600 employees. I know the TVF posters are a highly educated group and it puzzles me why most of you just automatically suspend your natural scepticism when the issue involves an attack on a for profit business. What would you do if your company and livelihood were attacked? Yes Natural Fruits hires temporary migrant workers but they also employ over 500 full time regular workers and pay them a fair wage and benefits. Why would you support the destruction of the lives of these people and their families. If Andy Hall and Andrew Drummond had their way that is exactly what would happen. Andrew Drummond should go back to Australia and address the internal problems and issues Australia has as should Andy Hall go back to Finland and work on improving Finland. Leave Thailand and Natural Fruits alone.

I agree, I don't think this is as open and shut as many posters would like. Journalists and NGO workers in Thailand are not always the most truthful people and often bend the truth to fit their agenda, it is totally possible that the things this guy has said are misleading and do constitute defamation. This company does have the right to defend themselves if what this guy is saying is inaccurate or misleading.

I agree completely, but to propose sending him to jail for seven years for each count of defamation is, shall we say, a trifle extreme. Defamation and slander are when an untruth is told that damages the reputation of someone or some company in the eyes of others, when what is said is truth, how can it be slander or defamation? and how can it justify as long in prison as one would get for murder (if you were not extraordinarily rich that is)

[Emdog]

If I recall correctly, I think Thai law allows for defamation and slander even if the charges are TRUE!!!! Truth is no defense, if it harms someones image.

Was it a year or so ago some visiting Australian government officer was arrested for saying impolite but true things ON THE PHONE to some Thai Chinese businessman? Slander, even if true, and if only she and the other were party to the conversation... And she was here to promote trade, as I recall. The welcome wagon is also the paddy wagon?

[JLCrab]

Post #62: Very unlikely? Maybe. But the Finns are being very cagey as to just how many workers were interviewed, and that they were interviewed anonymously and off premises for fear of reprisals.

Again, my incredulity comes from their customers in the EU having certainly visited many times the fruit company's facilities in Thailand for quality control purposes, if nothing else, and not sensing that there was some malfeasance in labor policies and worker conditions.

BTW in the USA fight now NJ Senator Robert Menendez is being accused of undue influence in support of a constituent and that said constituent took him to the Dominican Republic to frolic with prostitutes. They had a video of the girls making such statements. Then it turns out that the girls were paid by opponents of the Senator to make false statements. So these things DO happen.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/robert-menendez-prostitution-scandal-happened/story?id=18664472

Edited March 8, 2013 by JLCrab

[kujala]

Post #62: Very unlikely? Maybe. But the Finns are being very cagey as to just how many workers were interviewed, and that they were interviewed anonymously and off premises for fear of reprisals.

Again, my incredulity comes from their customers in the EU having certainly visited many times the fruit company's facilities in Thailand for quality control purposes, if nothing else, and not sensing that there was some malfeasance in labor policies and worker conditions.

Here is something about the investigation (Finnish-English machine translation):

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iltalehti.fi%2Fuutiset%2F2013012216584201_uu.shtml

The problem with the BSCI auditing system is that it covers only situations where the buyer buys directly from the supplier. As for the pineapple juices the buyer (Finnish Kesko) used an intermediate supplier (VIP Juice Ltd) and the BSCI auditing system doesn't cover anymore these kind of situations. Of course NOW they are trying to change that...

Here again as Finnish-English machine translation:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iltalehti.fi%2Fuutiset%2F2013012116584144_uu.shtml

[F4UCorsair]

As per Post #92, if they were a supplier directly or indirectly to an American retailer company like WalMart, they would already be contractually obligated to a inspection as to labor practice and conditions by auditors summarily and without notice.

But it wasn't always so. The US was just as guilty as developing countries in worker exploitation in its past, as was Australia, Great Britain, etc.

Why is it that we in developed countries want to impose our will on those countries still developing, and are at a stage where we were 50+ years ago? We're doing that with pollution targets, and obviously industrial agreements/situations. We don't go without our cars, washing machines, refrigerators, and haven't done so for over 50 years, so why should we dictate that those people in developing countries shouldn't have all those things because manufacturing them causes pollution?

We're an arrogant bunch in developed countries.

Edited March 8, 2013 by F4UCorsair

[nevets]

My understanding is that it matters not a jot whether accusations are true or not. He has made the Natural Fruit Company appear in a bad light and that is an offence, both criminal and civil. Does anybody know otherwise?

I do hope that common sense will prevail because arraigning Andy Hall will attract even wider bad publicity and drag Thailand's reputation below the gutter level it currently rates. Asking him to leave the country seems to be the best option open.

Yes even if its true thay can take you to court and win what a joke .

[JLCrab]

Why do developed countries like the USA want to impose their will on countries like Thailand? Well, in this case, because the buyers of the Thailand-produced pineapple juice have obligations in their own countries that they are providing products to their customers that have been sourced under ethical conditions. Pretty straightforward.

[jingjoke]

^ Exactly.

"Thai fruit processor Natural Fruit, a major supplier to the European drink market."

Time for the EU, and Finland, to step up to the plate.

Allowing this chap to swing in the wind is just not on, and he'll swing if he has no credible backing to investigate his claims impartially.

^ BTW great movie....

[F4UCorsair]

Why do developed countries like the USA want to impose their will on countries like Thailand? Well, in this case, because the buyers of the Thailand-produced pineapple juice have obligations in their own countries that they are providing products to their customers that have been sourced under ethical conditions. Pretty straightforward.

Not as straightforward as you make it sound.

And not so long ago the USA was exploiting workers (every country has at some stage), and no doubt some companies still do. Every developed country has used child labor in its past, but when it happens in India, or any developing country, western countries are outraged. We're a self righteous bunch.

Edited March 8, 2013 by F4UCorsair

[JLCrab]

Actually it is straightforward. These big purchasers of juice concentrate TODAY, at least in the USA, face lawsuits if they claim, as they do, that they are sourcing product under ethical conditions and someone can conclusively document that they are not. What has been the basis of the reports is interviews with a select group of employees.

Some of the big purchasers of concentrate have their own personnel on site during processing for quality control purposes so I am dubious that worker conditions are as described and nobody has noticed.

[fish fingers]

maybe someone cd start an FB page, but I would advise not to put it in their name..

[dcutman]

Why do developed countries like the USA want to impose their will on countries like Thailand? Well, in this case, because the buyers of the Thailand-produced pineapple juice have obligations in their own countries that they are providing products to their customers that have been sourced under ethical conditions. Pretty straightforward.

Not as straightforward as you make it sound.

And not so long ago the USA was exploiting workers (every country has at some stage), and no doubt some companies still do. Every developed country has used child labor in its past, but when it happens in India, or any developing country, western countries are outraged. We're a self righteous bunch.

As per Post #92, if they were a supplier directly or indirectly to an American retailer company like WalMart, they would already be contractually obligated to a inspection as to labor practice and conditions by auditors summarily and without notice.

But it wasn't always so. The US was just as guilty as developing countries in worker exploitation in its past, as was Australia, Great Britain, etc.

Why is it that we in developed countries want to impose our will on those countries still developing, and are at a stage where we were 50+ years ago? We're doing that with pollution targets, and obviously industrial agreements/situations. We don't go without our cars, washing machines, refrigerators, and haven't done so for over 50 years, so why should we dictate that those people in developing countries shouldn't have all those things because manufacturing them causes pollution?

We're an arrogant bunch in developed countries.

So you believe and are saying, developed countries are some how stomping on the economic rights of Thailand, by questioning their manufactures moral and lawful obligations to human rights?

[meadish_sweetball]

Why do almost all of the TVF posters automatically assume this admittedly liberal anti capitalist gadfly, Andy Hall, is unbiased and accurate in his reporting on Natural Fruits? Have you looked into Natural Fruits complaint against him? He has an agenda. He is paid to attack, any and all, for profit capitalist companies. That is how he makes his living. He has damaged Natural Fruits reputation and hurt their sales by his accusations. Likewise, he has damaged Thailand's reputation. What is Nautral Fruit and Thailand by extension, suppose to do? Stand by idly while their reputation and livelihood is defamed and attacked? Natural Fruit isn't a multinational conglomerate. They are a relatively small, environmentally friendly business that provides steady employment for around 500 to 600 employees. I know the TVF posters are a highly educated group and it puzzles me why most of you just automatically suspend your natural scepticism when the issue involves an attack on a for profit business. What would you do if your company and livelihood were attacked? Yes Natural Fruits hires temporary migrant workers but they also employ over 500 full time regular workers and pay them a fair wage and benefits. Why would you support the destruction of the lives of these people and their families. If Andy Hall and Andrew Drummond had their way that is exactly what would happen. Andrew Drummond should go back to Australia and address the internal problems and issues Australia has as should Andy Hall go back to Finland and work on improving Finland. Leave Thailand and Natural Fruits alone.

Here is my idea what to do:

Stop hiring migrant workers for peanuts - either make sure they get fair wages or hire locals at fair wages instead: raise the prices of the products if required, then use your ethical stance as a selling point versus your competition.

You know it makes more sense than shooting down somebody who is just pointing out conditions that you would never want to live under yourself.

[JO1973]

"Natural Fruit has submitted a criminal suit against the activist at the Bangkok South Criminal Court on charges of defamation under the computer crime act, which lawyers said could result in up to seven years in jail on each count."

How does a private company bring a 'criminal suit' against a private individual? Aren't criminal matters the job of the government and civil matters for citizens?

Oh wait, I'm in Thailand, forgot for a second.

[Andre0720]

I clicked on all the links. All the help buttons. Contact administrators gives a sorry message. Does not seem possible to start a new topic or thread. Why? Some people do...Obviously.

[wilcopops]

Trouble is - if it is true - (I see no reason why it shouldn't be) he HAS damaged the company's reputation....so there you go....catch 22

[JurgenG]

Why do developed countries like the USA want to impose their will on countries like Thailand? Well, in this case, because the buyers of the Thailand-produced pineapple juice have obligations in their own countries that they are providing products to their customers that have been sourced under ethical conditions. Pretty straightforward.

Actually the only people who impose anything are the consumers in developed countries. They say we will only buy goods that were produced / manufactured under some well defined condition. In turn the big companies like Coca Cola, Wall Mart or Disney tell their supplier that if they want to supply them, they will have to respect these condition. Just look at the recent Apple scandal, it's only under the pressure of their customers that they increased the monitoring of the working condition of their suppliers.

But in fact nobody impose anything on anybody. If you want to supply top computer manufacturers, you have to invest in clean rooms. If you want to supply top western brands, you have to invest in "clean" working condition. But nobody impose anything, it's just if you want to supply them.

Now are the demands of western consumers misguided ? Maybe, but that's an other debate.

Edited March 8, 2013 by JurgenG

[SanSaiExPat]

Why do almost all of the TVF posters automatically assume this admittedly liberal anti capitalist gadfly, Andy Hall, is unbiased and accurate in his reporting on Natural Fruits? Have you looked into Natural Fruits complaint against him? He has an agenda. He is paid to attack, any and all, for profit capitalist companies. That is how he makes his living. He has damaged Natural Fruits reputation and hurt their sales by his accusations. Likewise, he has damaged Thailand's reputation. What is Nautral Fruit and Thailand by extension, suppose to do? Stand by idly while their reputation and livelihood is defamed and attacked? Natural Fruit isn't a multinational conglomerate. They are a relatively small, environmentally friendly business that provides steady employment for around 500 to 600 employees. I know the TVF posters are a highly educated group and it puzzles me why most of you just automatically suspend your natural scepticism when the issue involves an attack on a for profit business. What would you do if your company and livelihood were attacked? Yes Natural Fruits hires temporary migrant workers but they also employ over 500 full time regular workers and pay them a fair wage and benefits. Why would you support the destruction of the lives of these people and their families. If Andy Hall and Andrew Drummond had their way that is exactly what would happen. Andrew Drummond should go back to Australia and address the internal problems and issues Australia has as should Andy Hall go back to Finland and work on improving Finland. Leave Thailand and Natural Fruits alone.

Just a minor point, but why would Andrew Drummond go back to Australia when he is from Scotland?

Because I was under the impression he had immigrated to Australia and represents the Associated Press there. http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-drummond/2b/b65/15b. I assumed from his Bio and resume that he, worked and lived there. But if I'm wrong I stand corrected.

[Ian Curtis]

Good luck to him. I hope he has solid proof of what he's been saying - and that he has copies of it somewhere very safe.

And I hope that the world's press follow this up too.

[SanSaiExPat]

Post #62: Very unlikely? Maybe. But the Finns are being very cagey as to just how many workers were interviewed, and that they were interviewed anonymously and off premises for fear of reprisals.

Again, my incredulity comes from their customers in the EU having certainly visited many times the fruit company's facilities in Thailand for quality control purposes, if nothing else, and not sensing that there was some malfeasance in labor policies and worker conditions.

BTW in the USA fight now NJ Senator Robert Menendez is being accused of undue influence in support of a constituent and that said constituent took him to the Dominican Republic to frolic with prostitutes. They had a video of the girls making such statements. Then it turns out that the girls were paid by opponents of the Senator to make false statements. So these things DO happen.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/robert-menendez-prostitution-scandal-happened/story?id=18664472

I realize it's somewhat off topic but in response to your claim the Democrat Senator Menendez is not guilty of the charges against him please read the following. Additionally it's not just prostitutes but paedophilia and sleeping with under aged girls. http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/06/report-relative-of-top-bob-menendez-donor-pushed-apparent-retraction-of-prostitution-claim/

[lungmi]

The PM of Thailand just was advertising for Thailand as hub of good food.

Seafood still is not clean and now this.

Andy can stay quiet. His background is clean. The customers in Europe will vote for him.

No Thai vegetables in Norway, no fruit juice in Finland, no Jasmine rice (only from Vietnam),

chicken nuggets yes etc.........

Edited March 8, 2013 by lungmi

[khaowong1]

Good luck to him. I hope he has solid proof of what he's been saying - and that he has copies of it somewhere very safe.

Even that won't help him in Thailand where face is all important.. to these people, defamation of character is where the truth is told but makes you look bad. Power to him. The only way out I see for him is if this thing draws world wide attention so much the Thai courts can't hide behind the power of money and political pressure. Go Andy Go...

[hhiser]

"He damaged our company's reputation in his study of Myanmar migrant workers," Natural Fruit assistant marketing director Krisna Suwannang told AFP.

No, I don't think he did. The Company did that themselves he just reported the TRUTH.

[lookingeast]

My understanding is that it matters not a jot whether accusations are true or not. He has made the Natural Fruit Company appear in a bad light and that is an offence, both criminal and civil. Does anybody know otherwise?

I do hope that common sense will prevail because arraigning Andy Hall will attract even wider bad publicity and drag Thailand's reputation below the gutter level it currently rates. Asking him to leave the country seems to be the best option open.

Bagwan, your first sentence is correct. Thailand has some of the strictest and possibly most stupid defamation and slander laws in the world. It does not matter if Natural Fruit company were in fact employing under age workers or whatever, If you say it/print it and make them look bad, then they are likely to bring a successful class action against you.

Shit - that's new to me and very shocking. If it is really true that "It does not matter if Natural Fruit company were in fact employing under age workers or whatever.." then in a very real sense Thailand does not have 'slander' or 'libel' laws in the way most of the world understands those legal terms ? Statements have to be shown to be untrue to be either of those offences in the sane world - not so sure about the technicalities of 'defamation'. In the west, can you de-fame someone by making statements that are entirely accurate ?

[JLCrab]

Trying to stay on topic, the report directly from FinnWatch via Prachatai, which I have already linked above, re: Natural Fruit mentions that "the findings, that are based on worker interviews done since October 2012." The report specifies how many migrant workers are at the plant but not how many were actually interviewed.

Regarding the US Senator, I did mention that he is under investigation for undue influence on behalf of a constituent. And I am not intending to start reading the Daily Caller.

Edited March 8, 2013 by JLCrab

[F4UCorsair]

dcutman said, "So you believe and are saying, developed countries are some how stomping on the economic rights of Thailand, by questioning their manufactures moral and lawful obligations to human rights?

They can question, but I don't believe they have the right to dictate to other countries, particularly when they know that they themselves went through those stages of development. Very few consumers care for anything but the lowest price, and if that involves 'violations' of what western/developed countries see as 'human rights', they'll accept that, sad though it is. The US need only look as far back as slavery, and that's not far, to see what massive violations occurred, but they now see it as their right to dictate the terms to all comers. I applaud moves to bring all countries into the 21st century on human rights, but if the developing countries do so at the same rate as the US and other 'developed' countries, then we will be approaching the 22nd century, and possibly beyond, before that's achieved.

Is anybody daring to suggest that ALL products that fill the massive ships across the pacific from China, and supplying Walmart, are manufactured under 'ethical' conditions??

JurgenG said, "Actually the only people who impose anything are the consumers in developed countries. They say we will only buy goods that were produced / manufactured under some well defined condition. In turn the big companies like Coca Cola, Wall Mart or Disney tell their supplier that if they want to supply them, they will have to respect these condition. Just look at the recent Apple scandal, it's only under the pressure of their customers that they increased the monitoring of the working condition of their suppliers".

I remember when a Lauda Air aircraft crashed soon after take off from Bangkok 20+, and villagers from near the crash site looted the valuables. There were calls to boycott all Thai products in retaliation, particularly cat food (why cat food I'm not sure but I believe Thailand is one of the world's biggest suppliers [Thai fishing industry is a huge supplier], so perhaps those calling for the boycotts thought it would have the greatest impact?), and the world continued to buy Thailand produced cat food.

The bulk of consumers don't much care about how/where/under what conditions a product is produced, provided it's at the lowest cost possible. A few consumers do make a lot of noise, and just occasionally it appears to make a difference, so maybe it's about time the made a lot more noise about Nike's practices, although it hasn't worked so far, and a lot of noise has already been made.

How important are principles? Not very important when $$ are involved, even though there are those who will insist they are.

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Edited March 9, 2013 by F4UCorsair

[Thai at Heart]

My understanding is that it matters not a jot whether accusations are true or not. He has made the Natural Fruit Company appear in a bad light and that is an offence, both criminal and civil. Does anybody know otherwise?

I do hope that common sense will prevail because arraigning Andy Hall will attract even wider bad publicity and drag Thailand's reputation below the gutter level it currently rates. Asking him to leave the country seems to be the best option open.

Bagwan, your first sentence is correct. Thailand has some of the strictest and possibly most stupid defamation and slander laws in the world. It does not matter if Natural Fruit company were in fact employing under age workers or whatever, If you say it/print it and make them look bad, then they are likely to bring a successful class action against you.

Shit - that's new to me and very shocking. If it is really true that "It does not matter if Natural Fruit company were in fact employing under age workers or whatever.." then in a very real sense Thailand does not have 'slander' or 'libel' laws in the way most of the world understands those legal terms ? Statements have to be shown to be untrue to be either of those offences in the sane world - not so sure about the technicalities of 'defamation'. In the west, can you de-fame someone by making statements that are entirely accurate ?

Public interest is also involved in what constitutes a story worth telling.. this is going to be a fascinating story.

[dcutman]

dcutman said, "So you believe and are saying, developed countries are some how stomping on the economic rights of Thailand, by questioning their manufactures moral and lawful obligations to human rights?

They can question, but I don't believe they have the right to dictate to other countries, particularly when they know that they themselves went through those stages of development. Very few consumers care for anything but the lowest price, and if that involves 'violations' of what western/developed countries see as 'human rights', they'll accept that, sad though it is. The US need only look as far back as slavery, and that's not far, to see what massive violations occurred, but they now see it as their right to dictate the terms to all comers. I applaud moves to bring all countries into the 21st century on human rights, but if the developing countries do so at the same rate as the US and other 'developed' countries, then we will be approaching the 22nd century, and possibly beyond, before that's achieved.

Is anybody daring to suggest that ALL products that fill the massive ships across the pacific from China, and supplying Walmart, are manufactured under 'ethical' conditions??

I remember when a Lauda Air aircraft crashed soon after take off from Bangkok 20+, and villagers from near the crash site looted the valuables. There were calls to boycott all Thai products in retaliation, particularly cat food (why cat food I'm not sure but I believe Thailand is one of the world's biggest suppliers [Thai fishing industry is a huge supplier], so perhaps those calling for the boycotts thought it would have the greatest impact?), and the world continued to buy Thailand produced cat food. Consumers don't much care about how/where/under what conditions a product is produced, provided it's at the lowest cost possible.

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Your argument is just not sound and frankly it is ridiculous IMO.

Any country does have the right to dictate how products are made. They are the one's buying the products. What part of that dont you understand? It is irrelevant how any of these countries acted in the past. Its what their laws and moral obligations are today, that is whats relevant.

If you have not noticed or do not know, Thailand has adopted many of the laws, regarding human trafficking and crimes against human rights, that most other developed nations have adopted. So that in itself makes Thailand just as developed as other nations, in that regard.

Edited March 9, 2013 by dcutman

[BigC]

so what is he actually charged with?

He should ask the polictical Chewit to get invloved he likes this ind of stuff

Edited March 9, 2013 by BigC