Acid Test For Bible Bashers

[FunFon]

OK I give up on my original question, I guess no one's willing to put the thought into helping with that.

And I don't have any "problem with Christianity" at all, in fact I was trying to broaden the search to keep some more schools in the running that might provide decent value (which the top IS's certainly don't IMO unless you're making millions per month).

To change tack, below is a specific list of Christian-oriented schools

Note that I'm not looking for feedback on the educational quality of these schools, but only information that anyone might have (direct experience please, not hearsay or speculation) on this specific questions (I know ice cube's chance in h$%@ but)

To what extent do you think the schools "parent" religion is reflected in curriculum content to the point that it would affect the presentation of mainstream scientific views on topics like evolution?

- note of course one possible answer is "none - the religious aspect is 99% absent from the classroom, only reflected in the school's image

------------------------
These are avowed Adventist schools:

• Adventist International Mission
• Bangkok Advent
• Bangkok Adventist
• Ramkhamhaeng Advent International School
• Trinity International School

Not so sure about these two, perhaps simply dominated by Adventist (often Pinoy) staff?:

• Ekamai International School
• Niva International School

These seem to be pretty self-avowedly "bible based" curriculum sorts, most likely evangelical:

• Chiang Mai International School
• Hana Christian
• New Sathorn
• Sarang Community

These are Protestant, some only historically, not sure the extent to which their curriculum is affected

• Bangkok Christian International School
• Bangkok Christian College
• Bangkok Grace
• Grace International
• Global English
• International Community School
• Niva
• Saint John Mary
• St Mark's
• Talents
• Thai Christian

These are Catholic, in some cases (Sarasas for example) only because their owner is/was. For example I bet the three St Andrews campuses owned and operated by Cognitas don't have much Christianity in the curriculum

• Assumption (9 branches)
• Mater Dei
• Phra Mae Maree
• Redeemer
• Ruamrudee
• Sacred Heart
• Sarasas (28? branches)
• St Andrews (6 campuses under 3 different ownerships)
• St John's
• St Joseph
• St Michael

Thanks to all in advance for your help, or at least, here's hoping

[notmyself]

What exactly is a 'Christian-oriented school'?

Please be specific.

[rgs2001uk]

Ok, you or should I say your friend have had their fun, lets cut to the chase, how much can "your friend" afford?

I know of many Thais who send their children overseas to be educated, can your "friend" afford to send his children overseas?

What does he want for his children, one who gives orders or one who obeys?

[rgs2001uk]

What exactly is a 'Christian-oriented school'?

Please be specific.

One best avoided.

[FunFon]

Perhaps you best have a talk with the Jesuits, give me the child I will give you the man etc etc , by the time you get the child/man back the damage may already have been done.

I'm certainly not denying that damage hasn't been done to millions of kids in all kinds of schools, but I've got dozens of close friends that have had various stages of their education managed by the Jesuits, and all of them are well above average in their curiosity, open-mindedness and overall quality of their thinking.

Can't believe you're buying into two-hundred year old conspiracy theories motivated by political power issues and pure greed. Even in England where they were repressed for a long time, Oxford and the UofL have Jesuit colleges, and in the US, Fordham, Loyola and Georgetown University are pretty darn good, and none make any attempts to convert their students - in fact I know a guy went to Fordham who started out Episcopalian (CoE) and now's living as a Zen monk.

And you certainly won't find any Intelligent Design advocates among the order.

But the maxim's true, mainstream science now holds that most of our fundamental personality traits and belief systems are well in place by eight or nine years old.

[FunFon]

What exactly is a 'Christian-oriented school'?

Please be specific.

The fact that such a vague statement has no precise meaning is exactly the issue my question seeks to address.

The only aspect my friend has expressed a desire for wrt this issue is that he'd prefer a larger percentage of the students to be Christians, as long as the curriculum isn't compromised.

Wasn't that clear from all my posts here?

Ok, you or should I say your friend have had their fun, lets cut to the chase, how much can "your friend" afford?

Not relevant to my question, but thanks for asking

[Neeranam]

I'd teach your friend what humility is.

Sounds like he doesn't want his kids mixing with the locals and using religion as an excuse.

[notmyself]

The only aspect my friend has expressed a desire for wrt this issue is that he'd prefer a larger percentage of the students to be Christians

Why?

Why not a secular school?

[FunFon]

So off the pot FunFon, quit messing around and confess your problems with Christianity.... it would be so much more 'rational' to do so..... all this 'on behalf of my friend' nonsense requires a certain level of belief and suspension of critical thought.... which I'm guessing you will agree is not a good thing.

Honestly GuestHouse, I really don't have an axe to grind here, sorry you find my situation so incredible but to be honest I can't be bothered trying to figure out what could have triggered your obviously strong reaction.

I've admitted my wording was inappropriate and I've apologized already, I think three times now.

I guess I was working on the assumption that most people here don't like Christians that try to convert other people to their specific sect, nor those that allow let their religion interfere with taking a rational approach on viewing the world, IMO particularly treasonous wrt to the goals of a decent education.

But it's only those specific aspects that I have a problem with myself, and of course they're just as if not more prevalent in schools oriented around other religions - just not relevant to my current issue at hand.

I personally think both Jesus and Buddha were supernaturally special beings, probably dozens more just as much so, but all have had their original messages polluted by their followers later on in pursuit of worldly goals of power and money - but that doesn't lessen the intrinsic value of their authentic message at the kernel of what's left of their messages, which can be found within the pure still centre of every human being willing to keep open and listen to their inner heart.

If you'd like to talk about these issues further I'd be happy to meet with you - I attend the CoE church on Convent most Sundays, and participate in their regular weeknight sessions for curious newcomers. I'm looking for a Baha'i community here as I've met some powerfully spiritual Baha'i people traveling in the last few years, but haven't found one closer than Non. And I used to attend weekly meeting at the local Quaker house near my home growing up. Both my parents were atheists.

Does that help you at all?

[rgs2001uk]

Perhaps you best have a talk with the Jesuits, give me the child I will give you the man etc etc , by the time you get the child/man back the damage may already have been done.

I'm certainly not denying that damage hasn't been done to millions of kids in all kinds of schools, but I've got dozens of close friends that have had various stages of their education managed by the Jesuits, and all of them are well above average in their curiosity, open-mindedness and overall quality of their thinking.

Can't believe you're buying into two-hundred year old conspiracy theories motivated by political power issues and pure greed. Even in England where they were repressed for a long time, Oxford and the UofL have Jesuit colleges, and in the US, Fordham, Loyola and Georgetown University are pretty darn good, and none make any attempts to convert their students - in fact I know a guy went to Fordham who started out Episcopalian (CoE) and now's living as a Zen monk.

And you certainly won't find any Intelligent Design advocates among the order.

But the maxim's true, mainstream science now holds that most of our fundamental personality traits and belief systems are well in place by eight or nine years old.

And you certainly won't find any Intelligent Design advocates among the order.

Excellent, glad to hear it.

How many countries were they banned from?

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110611041153AAxPR1p

http://www.reformation.org/jesuits-in-france.html

http://wrembek.eu/?c=3〈=en

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Society_of_Jesus

Shit, maybe I am a Jesuit and dont yet know it.

[FunFon]

I'd teach your friend what humility is.

Sounds like he doesn't want his kids mixing with the locals and using religion as an excuse.

Actually I've made it clear to him that even at schools costing over 20K per child they'll be in classes with mostly Thais. He just want to increase the odds.

But as I said it's not a major issue for him, and definitely not motivated by race or culture issues. In fact he's said if he ends up settling here long term he could just let the younger ones learn Thai and then send them to "normal Thai schools", given the fact that even the cheap ISs are 5K+.

I quickly set him straight on why that would be a bad idea

[FunFon]

Excellent, glad to hear it.

----

Shit, maybe I am a Jesuit and dont yet know it.

As if it's a genetic thing?

Really man, listen to yourself, you're talking centuries ago, careful or people might think you're some sort of conspiracy nut. . .

I really don't care about them one way or the other, but wrt to the topic at hand (education) I think anything the worst Jesuit brother could offer would be a significant improvement over anything in Thailand below say the 95 percentile mark. . .

[notmyself]

Shit, maybe I am a Jesuit and dont yet know it.

As if it's a genetic thing?

It's either that or demographics. Up to you.

I ask again, what is wrong with a secular school?

[rgs2001uk]

Excellent, glad to hear it.

----

Shit, maybe I am a Jesuit and dont yet know it.

As if it's a genetic thing?

Really man, listen to yourself, you're talking centuries ago, careful or people might think you're some sort of conspiracy nut. . .

I really don't care about them one way or the other, but wrt to the topic at hand (education) I think anything the worst Jesuit brother could offer would be a significant improvement over anything in Thailand below say the 95 percentile mark. . .

If you want to talk theology, dont waste your time, I am an atheist.

Lets cut to the chase, your friend is a CC who cant afford an international school, so he decides to have an anti Thai bash.

My advice tell your CC friend to return to his country they will provide a free education in line with his thoughts/religion.

We free thinkers will continue to send our children to international schools, and after that overseas for a decent Uni, hope you kid enjoys flipping burgers at the local Tesco/Lotus.

[FunFon]

Lets cut to the chase, your friend is a CC who cant afford an international school, so he decides to have an anti Thai bash.

My advice tell your CC friend to return to his country they will provide a free education in line with his thoughts/religion.

We free thinkers will continue to send our children to international schools, and after that overseas for a decent Uni, hope you kid enjoys flipping burgers at the local Tesco/Lotus.

Don't know this CC other than the usual email sense.

At over 100,000 pounds a year for all the kids even if he could afford the top international schools that wouldn't be a sensible way to get value for money for anyone in the bottom 95% back home. IMO

You should have noticed he hasn't come here yet, so not much point in telling him to go home already.

And he's not bashing Thais or Thailand in any way, have no idea where you get that idea from your "free thinking"

Oh I see you think someone who attaches any importance to religion is by definition not a free thinker?

Seems pretty closed-minded to me that attitude does.

And finally, this particular issue isn't even that important to him, he's certainly not bigoted about it, just expressed a mild preference that's all.

It's just that particular issue is a relatively subtle one, difficult to suss out without actually talking to people on the ground.

I was hoping to be able to cut down on some of the leg work, that's all. Thanks for your suggestions. . .

[tuky]

So is this thread about education or religion?

I glossed over all the religion comments and wasn't left with much else to go on.

I think the OP is wasting too much time concerned with religion.

How about your friend just stick his kids in school and teach them what he sees as the right path at home?

Isn't that the way the world should work? education at school, life principles at home?

[chiangmaikelly]

You have to read between the lines. I think the thread is about 2 nursery school students ages 3 and 4 going to nursery school to learn how to color and throw a ball.

[rene123]

I think the most simple question would be... What are the best schools for western children of these (?) ages? And leave it at that. Parents can teach their children what is really important, namely... the INTEREST in learning. Children are like sponges and will pick up whatever is around them if given half a chance. If you make life interesting enough you can't STOP children from learning. It doesn't matter the culture or the religion. Children should learn a bit about all the religions and let them make up their minds what is best for themselves. The most important thing a parent can teach their child is to be independent and self reliant. After that they can't be swayed by nonsense pushed at them by anyone. Anyone who passes on the process of learning to a teacher is doing their child a disfavour. The process of learning should be taught by the parents. The school teachers just fine tune it and provide guidelines.

If I was the OP I would just check with all the schools and ask for references from previous parents whose children graduated. It shouldn't be that difficult to get a list of all schools suitable for farang children in Chiang Mai. Children pick up languages far quicker than adults and that should not be a problem.

It doesn't matter the culture or the religion.

Really?

Perhaps you best have a talk with the Jesuits, give me the child I will give you the man etc etc , by the time you get the child/man back the damage may already have been done.

have a read on how even the pope suppressed the Society of Jesus,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Society_of_Jesus

Re-read what I wrote. It is the parents DUTY to give the children the basic grounding in their first 6 years BEFORE official schooling. Once a child knows who they are and has proper values in life they will not be swayed by teachers with an agenda... UNLESS THE PARENTS ABANDON TEACHING FROM THAT POINT ONWARD!

Most of the problems with with the Jesuit schools you mention happened because the parents abandoned their child and left all teaching to the school. The old British system of sending the child off to a boarding school was a typical example. If the teachers were paedophiles or saddists then the children suffered. That is what happened to thousands of native children in Canada when they were taken from their families and placed in government backed schools run by Anglican and Catholic priests and nuns.

I have no love for religion of any kind. Most of the world's problems can be traced back to how children were treated in religious based schools. There are basic rights and wrongs, but just about all religions use their power for personal greed or perversions. You don't have to look too far to know what I mean.

It takes a lot more than just book knowledge to be a good teacher. Good teachers inspire children and make them want to learn more. A few of the best teachers I've ever met did not have formal training and were not accredited teachers with a degree. But, they inspired the children to want to learn more.

[candypants]

It might be easier if your 'friend' signed up to TVF and asked his own question.

At least that way we'd get HIS views of what HE wants for HIS children in terms of religion in education while at the same time avoiding YOUR OWN views of what is right for OTHER PEOPLE.

Actually he seems to trust me enough to make judgments for him at least at this initial stage, he his actually a good friend so I know where he's coming from, not sure what the quotes are for.

I've already put in a few dozen hours into the project, he's a very busy guy (he makes lots more dosh than I do) so that's why he's asked me to give him a short list of up to five schools for him to check out in person when he comes over.

This particular aspect (dogmatic Christianity getting in the way of a decent curriculum) is just part of the early-stage filtering.

If you don't want to help with any suggestions, that's fine but. . .

perhaps this is why he makes more dosh?

[rattler]

OK to clarify, my friend is not a deeply faithful Christian of any variety, and definitely doesn't want his children to be receiving anything related to a "Christian education" as for example an evangelical would want for his family. Being kind to others and other virtues are of course great things, being taught quite adequately at Thai Sikh, Crescent International etc, but other things being equal he'd rather avoid places where the vast majority of students are of a different religion, that's all.

He also expressed this as a very minor factor, way down the list, far below for example the provision of a variety of extra curricular activities, not too much homework for the younger ones, and so on.

I'm sorry if my use of a derogatory term offended some here, I have no hard feelings for believers in whatever way of whatever creed. I'm just trying to make sure his kids don't end up at a place where they're taught "evolution is just a theory, humans actually walked with the dinosaurs" or "abortionists are murderers" sort of stuff.

A decent parent wouldnt teach their kids fairy tales or have others teach them fairy tales. Tell him to keep all religions out of their education and if they want to learn about it wait until they are at least 18yrs old

[transam]

A very loooooooooooong time ago when l was a kid, religion was taught on a Sunday morning in the church hall. Though a few hymns were sung at school first thing. Church of England stuff.

[Potosi]

"What is your science curriculum's stance on the theory of evolution"? Odd phrase, 'theory of evolution'. Uncommon out of America. It's just accepted as a fact of life.

My daughter clutched a small brochure in her hands when I picked her up from the kindergarten one evening. Some Christian stuff I realized when I opened it. I went quite mad, "why do you expose my child to crap like this at an age when she can't determine on her own what is right or wrong? "We are a Christian kindergarten", the teacher replied. I didn't know that, and didn't see any Christian symbolism anywhere before in the facility. A week later we placed her in a kindergarten with no religion on the curriculum, I learned that's now called 'atheist kindergarten'. Another strange phrase.

[lovelomsak]

I apologize for not reading all posts before adding mine and may have missed something by not reading them. But I feel we can best help you if we knew the ages of the children that will attend the schools and whether or not they are male or female. There are numerous schools,some girls schools, some boy schools,some teach only anubaan,some only mattyom. Could best assist if had more info.

[Neeranam]

OK to clarify, my friend is not a deeply faithful Christian of any variety, and definitely doesn't want his children to be receiving anything related to a "Christian education" as for example an evangelical would want for his family. Being kind to others and other virtues are of course great things, being taught quite adequately at Thai Sikh, Crescent International etc, but other things being equal he'd rather avoid places where the vast majority of students are of a different religion, that's all.

He also expressed this as a very minor factor, way down the list, far below for example the provision of a variety of extra curricular activities, not too much homework for the younger ones, and so on.

I'm sorry if my use of a derogatory term offended some here, I have no hard feelings for believers in whatever way of whatever creed. I'm just trying to make sure his kids don't end up at a place where they're taught "evolution is just a theory, humans actually walked with the dinosaurs" or "abortionists are murderers" sort of stuff.

A decent parent wouldnt teach their kids fairy tales or have others teach them fairy tales. Tell him to keep all religions out of their education and if they want to learn about it wait until they are at least 18yrs old

What a ridiculous thing to say! Do you actually think that Buddha, Christ, Mohammed and other prophets didn't exist? Are you a decent parent if you tell your kids this nonsense?

I feel that religion is for those who don't want to go to hell and spirituality is for those who have already been there. I am no member of religion but respect them all and try to live a spiritual life. Live and let live.

I got tired many years ago of listening to the 'enlightened' guy on the barstool in Pat Pong or Pattaya telling me that there was no God and all religious people were full of sh*t.

[chiangmaikelly]

I apologize for not reading all posts before adding mine and may have missed something by not reading them. But I feel we can best help you if we knew the ages of the children that will attend the schools and whether or not they are male or female. There are numerous schools,some girls schools, some boy schools,some teach only anubaan,some only mattyom. Could best assist if had more info.

I suggested that on page one. The OP said it didn't make any difference. He posted some mombo jombo.

[chiangmaikelly]

OK to clarify, my friend is not a deeply faithful Christian of any variety, and definitely doesn't want his children to be receiving anything related to a "Christian education" as for example an evangelical would want for his family. Being kind to others and other virtues are of course great things, being taught quite adequately at Thai Sikh, Crescent International etc, but other things being equal he'd rather avoid places where the vast majority of students are of a different religion, that's all.

He also expressed this as a very minor factor, way down the list, far below for example the provision of a variety of extra curricular activities, not too much homework for the younger ones, and so on.

I'm sorry if my use of a derogatory term offended some here, I have no hard feelings for believers in whatever way of whatever creed. I'm just trying to make sure his kids don't end up at a place where they're taught "evolution is just a theory, humans actually walked with the dinosaurs" or "abortionists are murderers" sort of stuff.

A decent parent wouldnt teach their kids fairy tales or have others teach them fairy tales. Tell him to keep all religions out of their education and if they want to learn about it wait until they are at least 18yrs old

What a ridiculous thing to say! Do you actually think that Buddha, Christ, Mohammed and other prophets didn't exist? Are you a decent parent if you tell your kids this nonsense?

I feel that religion is for those who don't want to go to hell and spirituality is for those who have already been there. I am no member of religion but respect them all and try to live a spiritual life. Live and let live.

I got tired many years ago of listening to the 'enlightened' guy on the barstool in Pat Pong or Pattaya telling me that there was no God and all religious people were full of sh*t.

They never existed.

[notmyself]

"What is your science curriculum's stance on the theory of evolution"? Odd phrase, 'theory of evolution'. Uncommon out of America. It's just accepted as a fact of life.

My daughter clutched a small brochure in her hands when I picked her up from the kindergarten one evening. Some Christian stuff I realized when I opened it. I went quite mad, "why do you expose my child to crap like this at an age when she can't determine on her own what is right or wrong? "We are a Christian kindergarten", the teacher replied. I didn't know that, and didn't see any Christian symbolism anywhere before in the facility. A week later we placed her in a kindergarten with no religion on the curriculum, I learned that's now called 'atheist kindergarten'. Another strange phrase.

Secular kindergarten surely?

[driedmango]

I don't think children are Christian, their parents are and they are told to be but once they get to be an adult and decide their are that or not is a different story.

That being said, tell your friend not to worry about that and instead concentrate on finding a decent school for the kid where he isn't surrounded by a gated community of spoiled brats.

[rattler]

OK to clarify, my friend is not a deeply faithful Christian of any variety, and definitely doesn't want his children to be receiving anything related to a "Christian education" as for example an evangelical would want for his family. Being kind to others and other virtues are of course great things, being taught quite adequately at Thai Sikh, Crescent International etc, but other things being equal he'd rather avoid places where the vast majority of students are of a different religion, that's all.

He also expressed this as a very minor factor, way down the list, far below for example the provision of a variety of extra curricular activities, not too much homework for the younger ones, and so on.

I'm sorry if my use of a derogatory term offended some here, I have no hard feelings for believers in whatever way of whatever creed. I'm just trying to make sure his kids don't end up at a place where they're taught "evolution is just a theory, humans actually walked with the dinosaurs" or "abortionists are murderers" sort of stuff.

A decent parent wouldnt teach their kids fairy tales or have others teach them fairy tales. Tell him to keep all religions out of their education and if they want to learn about it wait until they are at least 18yrs old

What a ridiculous thing to say! Do you actually think that Buddha, Christ, Mohammed and other prophets didn't exist? more than likely Are you a decent parent if you tell your kids this nonsense? yes

I feel that religion is for those who don't want to go to hell ( an assumption hell is real?) and spirituality ( whats is spirituality show the proof describe it) is for those who have already been there. I am no member of religion but respect them all and try to live a spiritual life. Live and let live. great when it doesnt interfere in your life but sadly all religions do

I got tired many years ago of listening to the 'enlightened' guy on the barstool in Pat Pong or Pattaya telling me that there was no God and all religious people were full of sh*t.

Yeah well u should of listened to him!!

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/7/seeking-facts-of-elusive-canon/?page=all

http://www.truthbeknown.com/buddha.htm

Both far more rational explanations than what we have now dont you think?

When my kids are 18 they can read this until then keep it out of their lives.

[FunFon]

Well I certainly didn't mean for this to turn into a thread for bashing others' deeply-held spiritual beliefs.

I guess I should have remembered what mum said about the two topics one shouldn't bring up in social conversation (of course there's the third one but she daren't mention that).

And as I've stated at least a half-dozen times, I wasn't looking for advice about schools.

Regarding the use of the word "theory" well I do try to maintain a scientific POV, and although of course it's true that biological evolution is a well-proven fact, the mechanisms behind it, both generally and in most specific instances still remain open to challenge down the road.

As should we all, even about the many many areas of reality that science hasn't yet begun to explain - to the qualified specialists satisfaction.

I find laymen's (as in non-scientist) attitudes to be most closed at both ends of the spectrum between "true believer" (in a fixed dogma) and "firm atheist" - as if science has already discovered all it will, or usually they're arguing against a straw man construction.

Some people actually feel that any topic domain that can't accurately be measured and explained by our current state of knowledge shouldn't even be explored.

Now that's unscientific. . .

In fifty years mankind will look back at our current state of knowledge with exactly the same incredulity and disdain that we now feel about using leeches for medical purposes - whoops, bad example, we've discovered they do have beneficial properties, OK, the way we look at the inventors of the Anti-Kythera device, oh - maybe that's not such an apt analogy.

Oh well you get my point. Of if you don't just let the warm and fuzzy part of your brain absorb it by osmosis. 8-)