Nisa Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 At least in Thailand it is not only the corporations and the rich who can benefit from bribes and nobody kids themselves of what it is by calling it donations, contributions, fees, or create titles like lobbyists for legal bribes .... no, here you just hand over the cash and there is no trying to fool yourself or others as to what is going on. You fool yourself corruption undermines it all.. someone with loads of money can pay more and then you can go to jail even if innocent as the cops say its you who did it. He just paid more. Gone is justice. All those nice examples where it is minor corruption just the beginning of the end. I was neither advocating or condemning bribes or corruption just pointing out it is much more open here and not limited to the rich. You are kidding yourself if you believe the rich vs. the poor in developed countries don't also get a different set of justice. No, not all the time but neither do they in Thailand either. Be it lawyers or even doctors the rich are going to get the best. Just look at the system of traffic or criminal fines in most developed nations ... is it based on percentage of income? What does a $100 ticket mean to a super rich person compared to one who makes minimum wage? My point was simply to say that corruption exists everywhere but they just legalize and call it different names in the developed world. Do you really think that big corporations or the rich donate to political parties without expecting something in return be it government jobs or contracts? The year Microsoft faced US deregulation is the same year in they were the largest donor to both the Democratic and Republican party ... even with near 95% of computers running Windows they were of course not deemed a monopoly. You fool yourself as they cant buy the cop back home to change the evidence. Sure they can buy a better lawyer but the evidence stays the same. That is the whole point. Sure big companies do stuff like that, and should be punished im not saying there is no corruption anywhere else. I am saying there is more here and much deeper. Anyway I cant change it, i just don't like it. Here you can sometimes pay a little to the low paid cop to make evidence disappear but elsewhere, such as the US, you can sometimes pay big money (if you have it) to a rich lawyer to make evidence disappear. Interesting that both countries having some of the highest prison populations in the world and that the vast majority of the inmates are poor. As for buying cops in the US, you certainly can sometimes but it takes a lot more and is often done in legal ways such as hiring these cops as consultants of even security during their off hours at incredibly higher rates than their police job but they can't quit the police job as then they would become worthless to their client. Again, not at all advocating corruption but lets not fool ourselves into believing legalized bribes and corruption is any better. Personally, I just like to be honest about being dishonest rather than accepting that it is okay, legal and accepted that a rich person will get a better defense and a MUCH higher chance of not seeing jail time for the same crime as a poor person ... especially if a minority. I don't have enough experience with other places such as the UK but just know that I much prefer the type of daily corruption in Thailand to the daily corruption in my homeland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDrinker Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Do you think this doesn't happen in EVERY country in the world? Seriously, get over the piffle and enjoy it while it suits you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 At least in Thailand it is not only the corporations and the rich who can benefit from bribes and nobody kids themselves of what it is by calling it donations, contributions, fees, or create titles like lobbyists for legal bribes .... no, here you just hand over the cash and there is no trying to fool yourself or others as to what is going on. You fool yourself corruption undermines it all.. someone with loads of money can pay more and then you can go to jail even if innocent as the cops say its you who did it. He just paid more. Gone is justice. All those nice examples where it is minor corruption just the beginning of the end. I was neither advocating or condemning bribes or corruption just pointing out it is much more open here and not limited to the rich. You are kidding yourself if you believe the rich vs. the poor in developed countries don't also get a different set of justice. No, not all the time but neither do they in Thailand either. Be it lawyers or even doctors the rich are going to get the best. Just look at the system of traffic or criminal fines in most developed nations ... is it based on percentage of income? What does a $100 ticket mean to a super rich person compared to one who makes minimum wage? My point was simply to say that corruption exists everywhere but they just legalize and call it different names in the developed world. Do you really think that big corporations or the rich donate to political parties without expecting something in return be it government jobs or contracts? The year Microsoft faced US deregulation is the same year in they were the largest donor to both the Democratic and Republican party ... even with near 95% of computers running Windows they were of course not deemed a monopoly. You are living in La-la land. I have seen you espouse petty corruption and bribery on more than one occasion in other posts. When someone calls you out on it you obfuscate, deny and trot out the tired "corruption exists everywhere" nonsense in some vain and ridiculous attempt to get Thailand off the hook. This is a wholly corrupt, immoral, unethical and greedy society. World's apart from the society I grew up in. Every time you try to peddle the nonsense that where I come from is somehow the same offends me and others that grew up with ethics. Sounds like time for you to go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post FarangTalk Posted March 18, 2013 Popular Post Share Posted March 18, 2013 At least in Thailand it is not only the corporations and the rich who can benefit from bribes and nobody kids themselves of what it is by calling it donations, contributions, fees, or create titles like lobbyists for legal bribes .... no, here you just hand over the cash and there is no trying to fool yourself or others as to what is going on. You fool yourself corruption undermines it all.. someone with loads of money can pay more and then you can go to jail even if innocent as the cops say its you who did it. He just paid more. Gone is justice. All those nice examples where it is minor corruption just the beginning of the end. I was neither advocating or condemning bribes or corruption just pointing out it is much more open here and not limited to the rich. You are kidding yourself if you believe the rich vs. the poor in developed countries don't also get a different set of justice. No, not all the time but neither do they in Thailand either. Be it lawyers or even doctors the rich are going to get the best. Just look at the system of traffic or criminal fines in most developed nations ... is it based on percentage of income? What does a $100 ticket mean to a super rich person compared to one who makes minimum wage? My point was simply to say that corruption exists everywhere but they just legalize and call it different names in the developed world. Do you really think that big corporations or the rich donate to political parties without expecting something in return be it government jobs or contracts? The year Microsoft faced US deregulation is the same year in they were the largest donor to both the Democratic and Republican party ... even with near 95% of computers running Windows they were of course not deemed a monopoly. You are living in La-la land. I have seen you espouse petty corruption and bribery on more than one occasion in other posts. When someone calls you out on it you obfuscate, deny and trot out the tired "corruption exists everywhere" nonsense in some vain and ridiculous attempt to get Thailand off the hook. This is a wholly corrupt, immoral, unethical and greedy society. World's apart from the society I grew up in. Every time you try to peddle the nonsense that where I come from is somehow the same offends me and others that grew up with ethics. Sounds like time for you to go home. This place has been my home for 15 years. Just because I don't condone unethical behaviour and I won't turn a blind eye to it I should leave? You sound so Thai. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarangTalk Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) Here you can sometimes pay a little to the low paid cop to make evidence disappear but elsewhere, such as the US, you can sometimes pay big money (if you have it) to a rich lawyer to make evidence disappear. Interesting that both countries having some of the highest prison populations in the world and that the vast majority of the inmates are poor. As for buying cops in the US, you certainly can sometimes but it takes a lot more and is often done in legal ways such as hiring these cops as consultants of even security during their off hours at incredibly higher rates than their police job but they can't quit the police job as then they would become worthless to their client. Again, not at all advocating corruption but lets not fool ourselves into believing legalized bribes and corruption is any better. Personally, I just like to be honest about being dishonest rather than accepting that it is okay, legal and accepted that a rich person will get a better defense and a MUCH higher chance of not seeing jail time for the same crime as a poor person ... especially if a minority. I don't have enough experience with other places such as the UK but just know that I much prefer the type of daily corruption in Thailand to the daily corruption in my homeland. Another uninformed, pointless and tiresome comparison with the US. In fact, it is not even a comparison as that would require actual facts, references and details, not just mere speculation, hyperbole and wishful thinking. Edited March 18, 2013 by FarangTalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post EyesWideOpen Posted March 18, 2013 Popular Post Share Posted March 18, 2013 Here is a thought for those trying to spin corruption as some sort of benign process that smooths things along in Thailand. It is much closer to a leech upon your back, which is careful to not take too much of your blood or it will kill you..... Singapore .... The least corrupt country in the world, with a highly educated population, and a country that is a economic dynamo. Thailand.... A highly corrupt country, with a poorly educated population, with its wealth bled away by government officials. Easily proven by the latest asset declarations by MPs, showing many millions of baht somehow gained on their microscopic government salary.. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Thing is stuff like fast service they should just make legal, to pay a bit to get it done faster as long as the option to do it at normal price is not obstructed. I might be misunderstanding you but you would be okay with somebody who could afford being able to cut a line in front of somebody who can't afford that fee if the money went to the organization or company as opposed to the worker behind the counter? IMO in a perfect world I would think everyone should have to wait their turn but I'd personally rather see the worker get the "tip" instead of the corporation, government or entity which your paying to get faster service at the expense of others. When it is the company making the money we accept it but if the worker behind the counter is making me wait by lining his own pockets then I can complain directly to the person causing the problems. I am not saying those who have worked to be wealthy shouldn't benefit from their success but things like faster service (depending on the scenario) at the expense of others seems like a bribe or corruption regardless if it is legalized corruption. But again really depends on the scenario too where paying for faster internet service or the first class line at the airlines is much different than paying for cutting the line when it comes to going to the hospital, in court or getting a license. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 At least in Thailand it is not only the corporations and the rich who can benefit from bribes and nobody kids themselves of what it is by calling it donations, contributions, fees, or create titles like lobbyists for legal bribes .... no, here you just hand over the cash and there is no trying to fool yourself or others as to what is going on. You fool yourself corruption undermines it all.. someone with loads of money can pay more and then you can go to jail even if innocent as the cops say its you who did it. He just paid more. Gone is justice. All those nice examples where it is minor corruption just the beginning of the end. I was neither advocating or condemning bribes or corruption just pointing out it is much more open here and not limited to the rich. You are kidding yourself if you believe the rich vs. the poor in developed countries don't also get a different set of justice. No, not all the time but neither do they in Thailand either. Be it lawyers or even doctors the rich are going to get the best. Just look at the system of traffic or criminal fines in most developed nations ... is it based on percentage of income? What does a $100 ticket mean to a super rich person compared to one who makes minimum wage? My point was simply to say that corruption exists everywhere but they just legalize and call it different names in the developed world. Do you really think that big corporations or the rich donate to political parties without expecting something in return be it government jobs or contracts? The year Microsoft faced US deregulation is the same year in they were the largest donor to both the Democratic and Republican party ... even with near 95% of computers running Windows they were of course not deemed a monopoly. You are living in La-la land. I have seen you espouse petty corruption and bribery on more than one occasion in other posts. When someone calls you out on it you obfuscate, deny and trot out the tired "corruption exists everywhere" nonsense in some vain and ridiculous attempt to get Thailand off the hook. This is a wholly corrupt, immoral, unethical and greedy society. World's apart from the society I grew up in. Every time you try to peddle the nonsense that where I come from is somehow the same offends me and others that grew up with ethics. Sounds like time for you to go home. This place has been my home for 15 years. Just because I don't condone unethical behaviour and I won't turn a blind eye to it I should leave? You sound so Thai. Actually you said this regarding what you call your home ... This is a wholly corrupt, immoral, unethical and greedy society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby nz Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Was wondering, if that high a percentage believe its OK to lie how many lied in the poll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDrinker Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) How do you thinnk GW bush got to be the most powerful man on Earth for 8 years? Hard work? Good scores in his SATS? A good report from the Schoolmarm (as I believe our American cousins call them)? Or because Daddy once had the same job? <deleted>. The bottom line is that it works here if you've got a few quid and even if you haven't.... Edited March 18, 2013 by HeavyDrinker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Thing is stuff like fast service they should just make legal, to pay a bit to get it done faster as long as the option to do it at normal price is not obstructed. I might be misunderstanding you but you would be okay with somebody who could afford being able to cut a line in front of somebody who can't afford that fee if the money went to the organization or company as opposed to the worker behind the counter? IMO in a perfect world I would think everyone should have to wait their turn but I'd personally rather see the worker get the "tip" instead of the corporation, government or entity which your paying to get faster service at the expense of others. When it is the company making the money we accept it but if the worker behind the counter is making me wait by lining his own pockets then I can complain directly to the person causing the problems. I am not saying those who have worked to be wealthy shouldn't benefit from their success but things like faster service (depending on the scenario) at the expense of others seems like a bribe or corruption regardless if it is legalized corruption. But again really depends on the scenario too where paying for faster internet service or the first class line at the airlines is much different than paying for cutting the line when it comes to going to the hospital, in court or getting a license. As long as the people without money are still served the same way as before and don't loose time extra then sure why not. Then nobody is hurt as it was the same as before, you had to wait the same time or pay a premium and get it faster. Other option is of course making sure its always processed fast. But you have a strange view of the world saying corruption happens everywhere and cops are bought in the west. I can tell you one thing it sure happens but not on the scale it does here. Also when its found out it gets punished. anyone even thinking its the same is kidding themselves. You cant compare Thailand corruption wise with the west, its simply crazy and kidding yoruself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 How do you thinnk GW bush got to be the most powerful man on Earth for 8 years? Hard work? <deleted>. The bottom line is that it works here if you've got a few quid and even if you haven't.... Could you please give me some examples of people getting away with murder in the West as opposed to here ? Talking about clear examples like the guy driving with his mercedes into a crowd and killing a few. I am sure there are many more here in Thailand now come up with a few in the west that were not punished where the evidence is so clear. You are delusional to put it on the same scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDrinker Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 The Kennedys were always at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 The Kennedys were always at it. And now recent times please.. come on must not be so hard if you think its comparible. I think i can add the red bull guy and charlems son. I am sure i can find a few more without much problems. I am not saying there is no corruption back home, im saying its on a much smaller scale and you got much more chane that justice does prevail as there is a lot less corruption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardholder Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I don’t trust the headline – I don’t see evidence of anyone having been asked if they approve of bribery. The fact that people participate in bribery and corruption does not equate to their approval. I know several murders in Thailand – I know of none that approve of murder. I believe fewer people would engage in bribery if they had confidence that systems here were simpler, fairer, and trustworthy. I think that is the whole point - the Thais know the whole system is endemic with corruption, bribery and graft. They therefore 'accept it' (there being no other choice) and thereby contribute to it's longevity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDrinker Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 The Kennedys still retain huge power an influence in the USA Rob... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yooper2001 Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) laws only apply to poor people. money talks and bullshit walks. i am glad i come from a place where i did not have to bribe someone to build a house or run my business Edited March 18, 2013 by bonobo changed font size Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhunHehe Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Money talks. Democracy at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbamboo Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 So now you know why Thais smile so much. It's to distract you whilst they cheat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesWideOpen Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 So let's recap.... Government officials love corruption, as it affords them mansions and mia nois. Thai people who have known nothing BUT corruption seem to readily accept this process. So I guess massive endemic corruption will not be going away anytime soon.... :-( 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 The Kennedys still retain huge power an influence in the USA Rob... I believe you only im saying its not on par with this country. Here there are countless of major examples of corruption litterly getting away with murder while you don't have that over there. You can say they stay hidden back there but im sure a fair bit stays hidden here. Anyway I hate corruption anywhere, just because it happens somewhere else too does not make it good. Your examples are minor, and things people could live with (me too) problem it always leads to more. Anyway i have said what i want to say on this topic, people will always have different views and its not up to me to change it. Its up to the Thais and the way it looks that wont be anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesdavy Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 87 per cent approved of lying for survival and had lied at some point over the past 12 months I would trust these 87% more than I'd trust the other 13%. You mean the 13% that lied about lying? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unanimosity Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 What is culturally interesting is that when one lies, the person that calls them on it is guilty of causing them to lose face. You can substitute cheats, steals, swindles, et al., for lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookingeast Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Let's just call bribery in Thailand tradition. Tradition is generally a good thing is it not? Maybe a poll could confirm tradition is generally considered a good thing. As soon as we confirm tradition is a good thing, then we can say bribery is a good thing. Simple deduction my Khun Watson."Tradition is generally a good thing is it not?"... NOT. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacceka Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Bribery and corruption exist in all countries. It is the degree of transparency that differs. Here, it's like looking through a glass windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billd766 Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 99% of all polls are bullshit. And the other 25% are just lies. Well it is a Thai poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOTIRIOS Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 ...."for survival"......translation....any pretext......any time...all the time....always.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arminbkk Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 What is culturally interesting is that when one lies, the person that calls them on it is guilty of causing them to lose face. Which oddly seems to be worse than the fact that that person lies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoshowJones Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Let's just call bribery in Thailand tradition. Tradition is generally a good thing is it not? Maybe a poll could confirm tradition is generally considered a good thing. As soon as we confirm tradition is a good thing, then we can say bribery is a good thing. Simple deduction my Khun Watson. Pib. Bribery can be a good thing and a bad thing, ie, if it saves you all the hassle and expense of leaving the country to get a certain visa to stay in Thailand, it's a good thing. If some rich person causes peoples death in a road accident, ie drunk driving, and pays someone to escape punishment, then it's a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaleySabai Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 My wife has said that corruption "is in the blood" of the people......"don't expect anything to change" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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