At What Point Do You Toss In The Towel?

[NeverSure]

Try to keep up. You are complaining about how the few are amassing the riches, and the many are not doing as well. I disagree, except in 3rd world countries.

It is apparent that many working people can still buy and own a home and get it paid off. It is apparent that auto ownership is normal, even for so called low income people. Unless they are alcoholics or drug addicts who have landed themselves in the street through no fault of society, the most likely have a washer and dryer, microwave and even a dishwasher.

If that's your definition of poor, you haven't seen much of the world. Low income is a relative thing, and in the US I have never seen anyone go hungry or not have decent housing unless they got there through personal choices.

Now as I said, run along.

-

It would be more constructive if you could refrain from disparaging remarks in your comments. Please.

I wasn't at all complaining, simply observing objectively established and commonly acknowledged facts - just look at average and mean adjusted income distribution statistics over the past fifty years, the standard of living has been falling for all but the top percentage of the population over that time.

I'm not at all advocating that people should be taken care of by the government, certainly better for all concerned to let those that can't fend for themselves get crushed, it's a state of nature out there let the fittest survive, way too many people on the planet anyway, as I said no reason the average American should catch a break compared to the average African or Asian, if they don't have the necessary skillsets, flexibility and entrepreneurial spirit they're just consuming resources that should be put to better use, ideally left so other species can thrive.

Judas Priest. What rock are you under, "simply observing objectively established and commonly acknowledged facts"?

As the old saying goes, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own "facts." No, it's not commonly acknowledged except by cry babies.

Fifty years, huh? Fifty years ago did the average US citizen own a dishwasher, two cars, air conditioning, a microwave, a colored TV set or even a TV set, a cell phone, a computer with internet, a house with a garage, a garage door opener, eat regularly at fast food restaurants or buy all of the pre-prepared food they do now? Do you want me to keep going? OK, did their car have air conditioning? Was the street in front of their small town home paved? Did they have cable TV?

You are so far gone into the liberal talking points that there is absolutely no hope for you. I'm putting you on ignore. I'm finished wasting my time on you.

[poanoi]

Now that is funny @HardenedSoul

[FunFon]

Fifty years, huh? Fifty years ago did the average US citizen own a dishwasher, two cars, air conditioning, a microwave, a colored TV set or even a TV set, a cell phone, a computer with internet, a house with a garage, a garage door opener, eat regularly at fast food restaurants or buy all of the pre-prepared food they do now? Do you want me to keep going? OK, did their car have air conditioning? Was the street in front of their small town home paved? Did they have cable TV?

-

I was just referring to purchasing power of income adjusted for inflation, obviously there are new consumer goods available now than before. Most of what you see as benefits are to me just symptoms of the insane out of control waste of resource consumption that has simply been hastening the destruction of our world leaving a dystopia for future generations.

Healthy food, reasonable housing in safe neighborhoods, decent standards of education and health care. These things are much less available to wider proportions of the US population than in other developed countries, and over the past twenty years, the trends have been spiraling downward certainly not up. I don't see air conditioning, private cars and home appliances as all that important, and I sure hope you're joking if you think infrastructure's been even close to maintained much less improved in recent decades.

[driedmango]

The Canadian dollar used to be .60 USD.. my money is worth more then I remember so I a stoked

[driedmango]

Thailand is so underpriced its not funny.. its booming and they have no unemployed, its shocking it isn't caught up with the west for prices, I guess having to be Thai to work and buy land is good for Thais or they would be like us in Canada having our homes and towns become international stock markets where you have thousands of homeless on the streets in every city..

[driedmango]

NeverSure, on 26 Mar 2013 - 14:55, said:

Spoken like a true loser. (Not saying you are, but that's what a loser who couldn't find a piece of the pie would say.)

Did you see in the US news the "Occupy Wall Street" losers? Yes they were. They were losers wanting something for nothing. They didn't want to be a winner, they wanted handouts from winners.

It never works that way. There are people who make it happen, and then there are those who wonder what the hell happened, to paraphrase an old quote.

Do you realize that some of the wealthiest "corporate" winners are self-made? Do you realize that they too are globalizing? Ever heard of Bill Gates or the guys who started Google from a dorm room or Jeff Bezos of Amazon or the founders of Ebay or Michael Dell or any other of thousands of upstart guys and women who dove in, took a chance, and became billionaires?

Now I suppose they are the evil ones, and aren't entitled to enjoy their success?

-

I have no idea where you're getting your interpretation of what I'm talking about. Of course the people you're talking about are winners from the current trends.

My point is that standards of living for ordinary working people have been drastically falling as a result of those same factors, and it is my belief that this will continue, to the point that people without the necessary skills and confidence in our own countries will end up living in third-world conditions.

Nowhere do I say anything about the government protecting anyone from these consequences or unreasonably taking anything away from those wealth-creators. But I do believe in democracy, to the point that I think everyone should be required to vote, there should be much greater transparency and participation by ordinary citizens in government, people should be able to trust those they elect etc etc. Don't you agree with those principles?

In any case the fact remains that the currency and government finances do need to be managed responsibly, and right now there is little semblance of functioning democracy. And it seems pretty clear that those who are actually in charge don't give a stuff about the welfare of the country as a whole.

IMO.

I think we agree on some things, but disagree on others. Anyone who's spent a week in any of the Western countries know that the infrastructure is vastly superior. I even poor people have better hygiene and safer sidewalks and safer drivers around them. It will be a long time if third world countries catch up in many of those ways.

Looking back 50 years to where the average US family had one car, fewer had college, more worked in factories, etc., I think that's how the "poor" in the US lives, except they drive their SUV to government offices to get their food stamps, apply for medicaid, and housing assistance.

I do agree something drastic has to be done about the budgets. I think there is a lot of waste, and I already posted that using resources to create jobs would put money into the coffers. I think it can be hit from more than one direction.

Most of that is a dream

If you really look at it the addicted poor in the west are faced with high murder rates, very unhealthy food, not allowed to make a street stall, there is cities like Detroit that are famous, ghettos full if unemployed youths, there is no public transit, housing us unattainable for the poor, no doctor when you are sick..

Any Mexican in the USA will tell you how much better life is in mexico apart from money and some places being dangerous.

Even Vancouver has thousands of crack heads on the prowel 24-7.

They can even have a little party on the street without a riot...

The roads, buses, trains, hotels, food, is better in Thailand, the standard of living for the average person is better, most Canadians are in a debt bubble band haven't eaten out in a month.

[NeverSure]

Thailand is so underpriced its not funny.. its booming and they have no unemployed, its shocking it isn't caught up with the west for prices, I guess having to be Thai to work and buy land is good for Thais or they would be like us in Canada having our homes and towns become international stock markets where you have thousands of homeless on the streets in every city..

Thailand has no unemployment. I guess you consider the 40% who work in agriculture employed? They are seasonal workers who often make less than minimum wage, and often have no work. Do you trust the Thai government figures? I guess sitting around all day drinking beer is employed?

What is it about Thailand that is booming, other than investment from other countries? Large blocks of empty condos? Government debt skyrocketing but not being spent on what it was borrowed for? (i.e. flood control, car rebates, rice scheme.) Now there is a concerted effort to borrow 2 tril baht to build a high speed, 2 track rail. It doesn't take a genius to know that the corruption in the building of it would cause lousy work and massive cost overruns. Much of the money would be pocketed by corrupt officials.

Booming because the citizens are being given no down home loans and car rebates and credit cards which they have no hope of paying for? Consumer debt is skyrocketing. Real estate is in a bubble. Everyone seems to have a smartphone.

I recently took a long drive through much of Isaan. I spent a month. I hadn't been there before, much to my chagrin. I couldn't believe how many new cars, pickups and scooters I saw parked at shacks. I know two different educated school teachers in Isaan who are so broke from buying new pickups, smartphones and computers that they can't afford to live. They live with family. They are in their 30's and going nowhere fast. No, their parents don't own farms. Their parents are poor and live in shacks in larger villages.

Thailand is racing headlong into big trouble. The rice scheme alone is enough to bankrupt Thailand. Do the math, remembering that they have promised to keep doing this for the next several years.

[NeverSure]

NeverSure, on 26 Mar 2013 - 14:55, said:

Spoken like a true loser. (Not saying you are, but that's what a loser who couldn't find a piece of the pie would say.)

Did you see in the US news the "Occupy Wall Street" losers? Yes they were. They were losers wanting something for nothing. They didn't want to be a winner, they wanted handouts from winners.

It never works that way. There are people who make it happen, and then there are those who wonder what the hell happened, to paraphrase an old quote.

Do you realize that some of the wealthiest "corporate" winners are self-made? Do you realize that they too are globalizing? Ever heard of Bill Gates or the guys who started Google from a dorm room or Jeff Bezos of Amazon or the founders of Ebay or Michael Dell or any other of thousands of upstart guys and women who dove in, took a chance, and became billionaires?

Now I suppose they are the evil ones, and aren't entitled to enjoy their success?

-

I have no idea where you're getting your interpretation of what I'm talking about. Of course the people you're talking about are winners from the current trends.

My point is that standards of living for ordinary working people have been drastically falling as a result of those same factors, and it is my belief that this will continue, to the point that people without the necessary skills and confidence in our own countries will end up living in third-world conditions.

Nowhere do I say anything about the government protecting anyone from these consequences or unreasonably taking anything away from those wealth-creators. But I do believe in democracy, to the point that I think everyone should be required to vote, there should be much greater transparency and participation by ordinary citizens in government, people should be able to trust those they elect etc etc. Don't you agree with those principles?

In any case the fact remains that the currency and government finances do need to be managed responsibly, and right now there is little semblance of functioning democracy. And it seems pretty clear that those who are actually in charge don't give a stuff about the welfare of the country as a whole.

IMO.

I think we agree on some things, but disagree on others. Anyone who's spent a week in any of the Western countries know that the infrastructure is vastly superior. I even poor people have better hygiene and safer sidewalks and safer drivers around them. It will be a long time if third world countries catch up in many of those ways.

Looking back 50 years to where the average US family had one car, fewer had college, more worked in factories, etc., I think that's how the "poor" in the US lives, except they drive their SUV to government offices to get their food stamps, apply for medicaid, and housing assistance.

I do agree something drastic has to be done about the budgets. I think there is a lot of waste, and I already posted that using resources to create jobs would put money into the coffers. I think it can be hit from more than one direction.

Most of that is a dream

If you really look at it the addicted poor in the west are faced with high murder rates, very unhealthy food, not allowed to make a street stall, there is cities like Detroit that are famous, ghettos full if unemployed youths, there is no public transit, housing us unattainable for the poor, no doctor when you are sick..

Any Mexican in the USA will tell you how much better life is in mexico apart from money and some places being dangerous.

Even Vancouver has thousands of crack heads on the prowel 24-7.

They can even have a little party on the street without a riot...

The roads, buses, trains, hotels, food, is better in Thailand, the standard of living for the average person is better, most Canadians are in a debt bubble band haven't eaten out in a month.

The poor and the drug addicts in the big inner cities are there by choice. If I was there I'd get out even if I had to walk.

Walk into the sunshine of the rest of the US. Who would hang around in an inner big city ghetto? It's their fault.

[FunFon]

I think you don't have much experience on the ground here.

Anybody who wants to work can walk into any one of a dozen jobs within a day or two of looking, including fresh from the country bumpkins with no experience or education required.

The rural poor working in agriculture used to be able to live with very very little cash per month, no need to be wage slaves, very easy lifestyle. Yes that's much harder now, but yes those people are employed if you're able-bodied you can make a decent living with much lower overheads living at the family home rather than having to relocate and pay rent.

Government debt is so far not at all out of control compared to 90% of the western more-developed nations, same with consumer debt. Sure individuals often make decisions that seem silly to us, but hey freedom of the market and unlike back home they have to wear the consequences, no easy bankruptcy options here like back home.

The rice scheme's unsustainable but certainly not even close to a negligible speck compared to the incredible stupidity shown by Bush-Cheney decisions to go into Iraq and Afghanistan, or the consequences of repealing Glass-Steagal or crippling oversight of the financial industry etc etc.

You can speculate about the future all your like, but the current reality is Thailand's in much much better fiscal shape than 80% of the NES countries.

[driedmango]

NeverSure, on 26 Mar 2013 - 14:55, said:

Spoken like a true loser. (Not saying you are, but that's what a loser who couldn't find a piece of the pie would say.)

Did you see in the US news the "Occupy Wall Street" losers? Yes they were. They were losers wanting something for nothing. They didn't want to be a winner, they wanted handouts from winners.

It never works that way. There are people who make it happen, and then there are those who wonder what the hell happened, to paraphrase an old quote.

Do you realize that some of the wealthiest "corporate" winners are self-made? Do you realize that they too are globalizing? Ever heard of Bill Gates or the guys who started Google from a dorm room or Jeff Bezos of Amazon or the founders of Ebay or Michael Dell or any other of thousands of upstart guys and women who dove in, took a chance, and became billionaires?

Now I suppose they are the evil ones, and aren't entitled to enjoy their success?

-

I have no idea where you're getting your interpretation of what I'm talking about. Of course the people you're talking about are winners from the current trends.

My point is that standards of living for ordinary working people have been drastically falling as a result of those same factors, and it is my belief that this will continue, to the point that people without the necessary skills and confidence in our own countries will end up living in third-world conditions.

Nowhere do I say anything about the government protecting anyone from these consequences or unreasonably taking anything away from those wealth-creators. But I do believe in democracy, to the point that I think everyone should be required to vote, there should be much greater transparency and participation by ordinary citizens in government, people should be able to trust those they elect etc etc. Don't you agree with those principles?

In any case the fact remains that the currency and government finances do need to be managed responsibly, and right now there is little semblance of functioning democracy. And it seems pretty clear that those who are actually in charge don't give a stuff about the welfare of the country as a whole.

IMO.

I think we agree on some things, but disagree on others. Anyone who's spent a week in any of the Western countries know that the infrastructure is vastly superior. I even poor people have better hygiene and safer sidewalks and safer drivers around them. It will be a long time if third world countries catch up in many of those ways.

Looking back 50 years to where the average US family had one car, fewer had college, more worked in factories, etc., I think that's how the "poor" in the US lives, except they drive their SUV to government offices to get their food stamps, apply for medicaid, and housing assistance.

I do agree something drastic has to be done about the budgets. I think there is a lot of waste, and I already posted that using resources to create jobs would put money into the coffers. I think it can be hit from more than one direction.

Most of that is a dream

If you really look at it the addicted poor in the west are faced with high murder rates, very unhealthy food, not allowed to make a street stall, there is cities like Detroit that are famous, ghettos full if unemployed youths, there is no public transit, housing us unattainable for the poor, no doctor when you are sick..

Any Mexican in the USA will tell you how much better life is in mexico apart from money and some places being dangerous.

Even Vancouver has thousands of crack heads on the prowel 24-7.

They can even have a little party on the street without a riot...

The roads, buses, trains, hotels, food, is better in Thailand, the standard of living for the average person is better, most Canadians are in a debt bubble band haven't eaten out in a month.

The poor and the drug addicts in the big inner cities are there by choice. If I was there I'd get out even if I had to walk.

Walk into the sunshine of the rest of the US. Who would hang around in an inner big city ghetto? It's their fault.

Thailand is changing and booming, yes the 40% work in the fields are working, there wages should triple in the next decade or two.

Most Thais I know work a job and many have a small businesses like at least something if not a few things on the side.

There isn't anywhere for american homeless to go, many are drug addicts, others taking care of family.

Yes Thailand is building trains while the west cuts them off, the USA was built long ago and is now a crumbling mess.. the Thais are no place near the debt levels of Americans.

I am saying I know Thailand is booming just walking down the street, it is busy at chain stores in the west but its hard to find a busy downtown.

Its hard for many to face but south east Asia, south america and places like that are outgrowing their previous rulers in Europe..

To think Spain used to be a world power lol.. they have 50% unemployed in some areas and living on bailouts..

You couldn't dream having a small unregulated market in Canada.. you couldn't dream of every mobster the world over not buying out your community...

Thailand is booming like china.. when they pull the plug their currency will be higher than most and you wont be able to live cheap there and will be forced to live in a dead end violent shit hole in america.

[driedmango]

PS the suburbs of the west are the most depressing places I could imagine

[NeverSure]

NeverSure, on 26 Mar 2013 - 14:55, said:

Spoken like a true loser. (Not saying you are, but that's what a loser who couldn't find a piece of the pie would say.)

Did you see in the US news the "Occupy Wall Street" losers? Yes they were. They were losers wanting something for nothing. They didn't want to be a winner, they wanted handouts from winners.

It never works that way. There are people who make it happen, and then there are those who wonder what the hell happened, to paraphrase an old quote.

Do you realize that some of the wealthiest "corporate" winners are self-made? Do you realize that they too are globalizing? Ever heard of Bill Gates or the guys who started Google from a dorm room or Jeff Bezos of Amazon or the founders of Ebay or Michael Dell or any other of thousands of upstart guys and women who dove in, took a chance, and became billionaires?

Now I suppose they are the evil ones, and aren't entitled to enjoy their success?

-

I have no idea where you're getting your interpretation of what I'm talking about. Of course the people you're talking about are winners from the current trends.

My point is that standards of living for ordinary working people have been drastically falling as a result of those same factors, and it is my belief that this will continue, to the point that people without the necessary skills and confidence in our own countries will end up living in third-world conditions.

Nowhere do I say anything about the government protecting anyone from these consequences or unreasonably taking anything away from those wealth-creators. But I do believe in democracy, to the point that I think everyone should be required to vote, there should be much greater transparency and participation by ordinary citizens in government, people should be able to trust those they elect etc etc. Don't you agree with those principles?

In any case the fact remains that the currency and government finances do need to be managed responsibly, and right now there is little semblance of functioning democracy. And it seems pretty clear that those who are actually in charge don't give a stuff about the welfare of the country as a whole.

IMO.

I think we agree on some things, but disagree on others. Anyone who's spent a week in any of the Western countries know that the infrastructure is vastly superior. I even poor people have better hygiene and safer sidewalks and safer drivers around them. It will be a long time if third world countries catch up in many of those ways.

Looking back 50 years to where the average US family had one car, fewer had college, more worked in factories, etc., I think that's how the "poor" in the US lives, except they drive their SUV to government offices to get their food stamps, apply for medicaid, and housing assistance.

I do agree something drastic has to be done about the budgets. I think there is a lot of waste, and I already posted that using resources to create jobs would put money into the coffers. I think it can be hit from more than one direction.

Most of that is a dream

If you really look at it the addicted poor in the west are faced with high murder rates, very unhealthy food, not allowed to make a street stall, there is cities like Detroit that are famous, ghettos full if unemployed youths, there is no public transit, housing us unattainable for the poor, no doctor when you are sick..

Any Mexican in the USA will tell you how much better life is in mexico apart from money and some places being dangerous.

Even Vancouver has thousands of crack heads on the prowel 24-7.

They can even have a little party on the street without a riot...

The roads, buses, trains, hotels, food, is better in Thailand, the standard of living for the average person is better, most Canadians are in a debt bubble band haven't eaten out in a month.

The poor and the drug addicts in the big inner cities are there by choice. If I was there I'd get out even if I had to walk.

Walk into the sunshine of the rest of the US. Who would hang around in an inner big city ghetto? It's their fault.

Thailand is changing and booming, yes the 40% work in the fields are working, there wages should triple in the next decade or two.

Most Thais I know work a job and many have a small businesses like at least something if not a few things on the side.

There isn't anywhere for american homeless to go, many are drug addicts, others taking care of family.

Yes Thailand is building trains while the west cuts them off, the USA was built long ago and is now a crumbling mess.. the Thais are no place near the debt levels of Americans.

I am saying I know Thailand is booming just walking down the street, it is busy at chain stores in the west but its hard to find a busy downtown.

Its hard for many to face but south east Asia, south america and places like that are outgrowing their previous rulers in Europe..

To think Spain used to be a world power lol.. they have 50% unemployed in some areas and living on bailouts..

You couldn't dream having a small unregulated market in Canada.. you couldn't dream of every mobster the world over not buying out your community...

Thailand is booming like china.. when they pull the plug their currency will be higher than most and you wont be able to live cheap there and will be forced to live in a dead end violent shit hole in america.

China is in a world of hurts. They have 1.3 billion mouths to feed and they are communist. Name me a communist country that ever prospered long term. The former USSR broke up because they were broke, and are turning to capitalism.

Thailand is running on national debt and foreign investment. Foreign investment is getting nervous with blocks of empty condos, auto sales falling, and Thailand borrowing money but not spending it where promised.

Just give it time. Thailand is digging itself and its consumers into a deep hole like the West did, only it doesn't have the infrastructure or the inventiveness or the know-how to lift itself by its own bootstraps. Thailand and China are both running headlong into a crash.

[driedmango]

NeverSure, on 26 Mar 2013 - 14:55, said:

Spoken like a true loser. (Not saying you are, but that's what a loser who couldn't find a piece of the pie would say.)

Did you see in the US news the "Occupy Wall Street" losers? Yes they were. They were losers wanting something for nothing. They didn't want to be a winner, they wanted handouts from winners.

It never works that way. There are people who make it happen, and then there are those who wonder what the hell happened, to paraphrase an old quote.

Do you realize that some of the wealthiest "corporate" winners are self-made? Do you realize that they too are globalizing? Ever heard of Bill Gates or the guys who started Google from a dorm room or Jeff Bezos of Amazon or the founders of Ebay or Michael Dell or any other of thousands of upstart guys and women who dove in, took a chance, and became billionaires?

Now I suppose they are the evil ones, and aren't entitled to enjoy their success?

-

I have no idea where you're getting your interpretation of what I'm talking about. Of course the people you're talking about are winners from the current trends.

My point is that standards of living for ordinary working people have been drastically falling as a result of those same factors, and it is my belief that this will continue, to the point that people without the necessary skills and confidence in our own countries will end up living in third-world conditions.

Nowhere do I say anything about the government protecting anyone from these consequences or unreasonably taking anything away from those wealth-creators. But I do believe in democracy, to the point that I think everyone should be required to vote, there should be much greater transparency and participation by ordinary citizens in government, people should be able to trust those they elect etc etc. Don't you agree with those principles?

In any case the fact remains that the currency and government finances do need to be managed responsibly, and right now there is little semblance of functioning democracy. And it seems pretty clear that those who are actually in charge don't give a stuff about the welfare of the country as a whole.

IMO.

I think we agree on some things, but disagree on others. Anyone who's spent a week in any of the Western countries know that the infrastructure is vastly superior. I even poor people have better hygiene and safer sidewalks and safer drivers around them. It will be a long time if third world countries catch up in many of those ways.

Looking back 50 years to where the average US family had one car, fewer had college, more worked in factories, etc., I think that's how the "poor" in the US lives, except they drive their SUV to government offices to get their food stamps, apply for medicaid, and housing assistance.

I do agree something drastic has to be done about the budgets. I think there is a lot of waste, and I already posted that using resources to create jobs would put money into the coffers. I think it can be hit from more than one direction.

Most of that is a dream

If you really look at it the addicted poor in the west are faced with high murder rates, very unhealthy food, not allowed to make a street stall, there is cities like Detroit that are famous, ghettos full if unemployed youths, there is no public transit, housing us unattainable for the poor, no doctor when you are sick..

Any Mexican in the USA will tell you how much better life is in mexico apart from money and some places being dangerous.

Even Vancouver has thousands of crack heads on the prowel 24-7.

They can even have a little party on the street without a riot...

The roads, buses, trains, hotels, food, is better in Thailand, the standard of living for the average person is better, most Canadians are in a debt bubble band haven't eaten out in a month.

The poor and the drug addicts in the big inner cities are there by choice. If I was there I'd get out even if I had to walk.

Walk into the sunshine of the rest of the US. Who would hang around in an inner big city ghetto? It's their fault.

Thailand is changing and booming, yes the 40% work in the fields are working, there wages should triple in the next decade or two.

Most Thais I know work a job and many have a small businesses like at least something if not a few things on the side.

There isn't anywhere for american homeless to go, many are drug addicts, others taking care of family.

Yes Thailand is building trains while the west cuts them off, the USA was built long ago and is now a crumbling mess.. the Thais are no place near the debt levels of Americans.

I am saying I know Thailand is booming just walking down the street, it is busy at chain stores in the west but its hard to find a busy downtown.

Its hard for many to face but south east Asia, south america and places like that are outgrowing their previous rulers in Europe..

To think Spain used to be a world power lol.. they have 50% unemployed in some areas and living on bailouts..

You couldn't dream having a small unregulated market in Canada.. you couldn't dream of every mobster the world over not buying out your community...

Thailand is booming like china.. when they pull the plug their currency will be higher than most and you wont be able to live cheap there and will be forced to live in a dead end violent shit hole in america.

China is in a world of hurts. They have 1.3 billion mouths to feed and they are communist. Name me a communist country that ever prospered long term. The former USSR broke up because they were broke, and are turning to capitalism.

Thailand is running on national debt and foreign investment. Foreign investment is getting nervous with blocks of empty condos, auto sales falling, and Thailand borrowing money but not spending it where promised.

Just give it time. Thailand is digging itself and its consumers into a deep hole like the West did, only it doesn't have the infrastructure or the inventiveness or the know-how to lift itself by its own bootstraps. Thailand and China are both running headlong into a crash.

capitalism is corporations owning people now a days, its alive and we'll in china too. I think you mean the Democratic ways of the west ? That's a faint dream nowadays also in most places it should be called a corporate dictatorship. Thailand just overtook Canada in car production, the economic powers in s.e. asia, Indonesia, Thailand .. are growing at rates the world has never seen, they are inventing, as well as making copies, its inevitable that they grow, they are just to busy for you to notice. Food prices rise, Thailand benefits... Brazil another rapidly growing country that will overtake any European country in the next two decades. For the average American this might seem scary, but compared with the bush wars, or Nazi Germany, you might think how awful countries with to much military and arrogance can act.

If china gets its act together with some environmental concerns, and maybe becomes more open socially, they could make a finer world power than the current one that has failed miserably.

Thailand could be a powerhouse of creativity, as well as India,regardless of what English teachers in Thailand think, they learn in real world jobs and thew hands on, and they have an advantage for now of not being spoiled and unhealthy, and having low crime rates, strong social bonds and lots of other things.

China one day will only need domestic market, that day will see other countries not being able to afford what they do, as they can't build manufactured items.. its takes decades to build an industrial base..

One day many farang will face the fact, thais will be richer and happier than you and Thailand being cheap no more, you will have to move elsewhere .. Bangladesh perhaps will still be a bargain for cheap sex tourists ..or some crackhouse in California.

[JLCrab]

Whenever I read comments implying that the world as we know it cannot possibly be sustained, I think of the perspective of Mr. George Abbott, the renowned NY Broadway musical producer who died in 1995 at the age of 107. In a NY Times obit it said:

In the last year of his life, George Abbott, at the age of 107, was asked what was the biggest change he had seen on Broadway. He paused, then replied, "Electricity."

[FunFon]

But given a long enough time window, it is inevitable that any given civilisation has its rise and fall. Problem is the cultures now transcend borders, so the world is now divided between so-called "liberal democratic capitalist", "Islamist" and China.

I reckon the writing's on the wall that the decline of the former is well on the way, led by the US' decline into corrupt dissolution, but could perhaps be saved by a strong resurgence from Europe/Commonwealth, especially if China doesn't take over America's dominance of capitalist Asia.

Islam seems to want to stay/go back to the past.

Pretty hard to imagine China getting its act together in the political sphere, but maybe incremental change will prevent a powderkeg blowup as the people get more empowered by development.

Other major factor is whether humanity can figure out how to create a sustainable economic model that doesn't rely on infinite growth increases in resource consumption reduced environmental footprint population reduction.

Otherwise the rats and cockroaches will inherit the burnt-out shell we leave behind. . .

[pinfold]

Hello Mr Driedmango,

Reading through your not -so obligatory read drivel leads me to the conclusion that were all same-same. Not so Mr Dreidmango. After living in India for a fair amount of years I can confirm they are different,thought patterns for one,will remain different, are incapable as I am of them being compatible in any aspect of my thoughts of being a tree-hugger.

China for all its virtues sees an end to unfettered importation of all its crap onto the US's market place and will suffer,likewise Thailand's boat will not exactly be coming in, in the near future but will go bottom up

Talking about bottoms,or backsides I admit there are pleasurable aspects of life in Thailand

[JLCrab]

"I reckon the writing's on the wall ..."

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts." said the late US Senator and Harvard Professor Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

Other than placing bets on the cockroaches and rats, what is one to do? (although I'm guessing buying gold-related instruments would be high on the list).

[StreetCowboy]

"I reckon the writing's on the wall ..."

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts." said the late US Senator and Harvard Professor Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

Other than placing bets on the cockroaches and rats, what is one to do? (although I'm guessing buying gold-related instruments would be high on the list).

Gold's gone uop so much lately its bound to go up a bit more. YOu'd be mad to miss out

[FunFon]

Other than placing bets on the cockroaches and rats, what is one to do? (although I'm guessing buying gold-related instruments would be high on the list).

-

All depends on how likely you think the odds of true crash-and-burn worst-case scenarios are. True gloom-and-doomers guard their cache of physical precious metals with locks and guns.

On a less drastic level, make sure to build strong networks of mutual support based on family and true friendships. Obviously this requires putting down roots, ideally in places that won't be risky if/when shit hits the fan, especially wrt local food self-sufficiency and resilience against mob violence.

And for those who think the odds are low, in general I'd say, make sure you've got a flexible attitude and multiple skillsets - for more along those lines, some good advice here.

In planning for retirement set very conservative estimates for everything and start learning to live as lean as possible, working long and hard and saving so you don't have to count on government help or favorable market results for your future survival.

IOW don't live as if the world might end tomorrow, because it probably won't and you'll be stuck living with the consequences of your life choices from early on.

[JLCrab]

Great. If the writing is on the wall, how about a date? I like to plan ahead.

Gee, and I thought your link was going to be to the writings of Nostradamus.

[FunFon]

I personally think the crash-and-burn worst-case scenarios are pretty unlikely, but if it does happen IMO there won't be much warning to plan ahead.

The IMO more-likely long-term overall decline could of course be postponed, ameliorated or even reversed if the voters back home start to wake up and get smart and take advantage of the fact that they do actually have the power to fix things if they can organize properly and stop expecting the near future to be as good as their parents' situation without them having to put in the same level of hard work and concern for the greater good.

Nothing inevitable about any of this, just watch the trend indicators and don't believe the BS-machine.

Note that the advice I outlines will IMO lead to a higher general level of happiness and quality of life even if things go back to what we'd like to call normal, so nothing to lose by being conservative and playing it safer anyway.

[JLCrab]

"I personally think ..." As a former jaded 1970's New Yorker, we used to say "Your opinion and a subway token gets you a ride."

[MrWorldwide]

No need to throw in the towel - short of oil supplies completely drying up, I expect that I'll always be able to put myself within minibus-range of the Thai border !

[davejones]

If you get less baht for your money, then you just need to earn more money. In this day and age it's easy to earn extra money. If money's getting tight, the do some work and earn some more.

[JLCrab]

Actually, I decided to throw in the towel years ago when I realized What's-the-Point?

[FunFon]

[JLCrab]

Eloquent. You could take a few lessons. At least you say IMO rather than IMHO.

[StreetCowboy]

DELETED

This topic seems hardly worth derailing with irrelevant and childish comments...

[JLCrab]

I promise any further comments by me will deal strictly with the imminent decline of western civilization as we know it. Meanwhile, launch another Cutty

[rubberduck]

oMe I left Thailand 2 years ago after 13 years permanently living + running a succesful café in Chiangmai. While I had lots of great holidays in the years before, living there at the end made me feel like wasting my time. Increasing polution, seriously annoyed about the traffic mentality (had 3 accidents and hundreds of times nearly being killed), annoyed about garbage thrown away along the road, conflicts with internet companies, hopeless mentality regarding environment (the plastic bag terror in supermarkets), abominable quality of non-food products, lack of positive developments, stupidity in general, exhausting heat, favorite hangouts closing one by one.

Simply said I have stayed in Thai too long. Back 'home' I feel relaxed, enjoy the quality of life and fresh air, the sun became my friend again. Never missed Thailand 1 day and when missing my favourite noodles at Moonmuang Road and the massages too much I get an airplane ticket and come over few weeks, enjoying the good things, meeting best friends until it's enough. Not letting things get under the skin anymore.

The enjoyable Thailand like it was 20 years ago it's gone anyway and I did not find it back. Now too many farangs, too many locals taking an advantage on them, farangs of which most spending time with drinking beer and nagging, many expats who don't even speak five words Thai, neverending discussions about visa hassle, double pricing, workpermits and mucisians being arrested, expensive Baht etc. I don't wanna be a part of it anymore.