Should Teach A Subject Called "common Sense" In Thailand.

[weegee]

Did the OP notice if the welder or any other of the construction workers were wearing their safety flip flops

HEY !!!! they are the best safety shoes around....I love mine...

[cardholder]

The best way to successfully educate any group of people is to do so in a manner whereby they don't realise they are being taught, 'The Archers' on BBC Radio 4 was a prime example of this for a couple of decades in the UK.

Instead of the moronic, slap down, shoot 'em up soaps on TV, perhaps a series called 'The Builders' featuring allegedly real life welders, brickies and tilers learn to work together, produce a quality product, and therefore all end up wealthy as a consequence.

Of course, to have an idea like that requires a degree of common sense.

LOVE IT!

You could also have one about a driving school where 'pupils' are shown how to drive in the left lane of a dual carriageway, use mirrors to aware of those around you and turn right at the junction, at 90 degrees (not 50 metres before at 45 degrees!).

The programme could also depict incidents of traffic violation and how the BiB handle it.

You could also driving after 18.30 hrs with cars having their dipped headlights on (not just a 5 watt candle bulb side light) and later, encountering an etan, in the pitch dark, with no lights on.

etc, etc

[FunFon]

Don't be a dope, what does getting what you pay for even mean, and what are these lessons I should have taken? Every job that I've had done has been negotiable to some degree. If I think the price is fair I don't quibble, but to guarantee an excellent job, I should offer twice what he's asking? Yeah, right!

-

The quality of the outcome doesn't come from your arrangement but from the legwork you put into identifying capable contractors up-front before you even start to talk about price.

And yes the cost of using people capable of even understanding what level of quality a foreigner expects will be many times higher than the 98% of local chang that think such high standards are completely unreasonable.

Personally I do a lot of such work myself, may take a lot longer but I enjoy the process.

Edited March 21, 2013 by FunFon

[Soutpeel]

Maybe we need classes of "common sense" for the foreigners coming to stay in Thailand in order to teach them that this is the Land of the Thais and that their idea of "common sense" is different from ours and that it is utterly useless to constantly complain about, but get a life and start adjusting to the Thai way of doing it?

There are a lot of things that I don't like, but what is it worth (except high blood pressure) when I complain about things I know I can not change but rather cause conflicts because I make Thais lose their face if I interfere with their way of doing things???

So, you're quite happy to have a worker run an electric cable (or water pipe) 3 inches deep in your garden, where it's likely to be severed by a shovel, and not say a word?

you shouldnt have paid them up front....common sense and all...

Where do you get this sh*t? Who said anything about paying up front? I was using an example of standing by and letting the worker do it his way rather than saying something and him losing face. Read the post a bit more carefully before you go off half-cocked.

So you knew something wrong or were not happy with but didnt say anything ?...yes...then your fault...stop bleating...

[giddyup]

Oh, I get it, it's my fault for either not paying enough or not standing there and supervising every little thing they do. What does "willing to pay for excellence" even mean? How do you know whether the guy does good work or not until he completes the job. When you mention "tradesmanship", is there such a thing? Do people actually undergo apprenticeships. Try asking the next "tradesman" that you use for his qualifications. Sorry, but I hear to many horror stories from falangs (and myself)who have had shoddy jobs done not to believe that that Thai workmen who take pride in a job well done are thin on the ground

How would you find a good tradesman at home?

Maybe you'd get some recommendations from pals, look at a few of his past jobs...?

Apply the same rules here. It's not Rocket Science.

I always say that the first thing a person needs to get on well here is to apply the same levels of common sense they do at home. Clearly you don't (when it comes to tradesmen in any case).

Oh no..it's that "common sense" thing rising up again....

You can't argue against someone who has it all sussed out, and everyone else is either uninformed, ignorant and definitely lacking in common sense. I bow to your superior wisdom.

[Swiss1960]

Maybe we need classes of "common sense" for the foreigners coming to stay in Thailand in order to teach them that this is the Land of the Thais and that their idea of "common sense" is different from ours and that it is utterly useless to constantly complain about, but get a life and start adjusting to the Thai way of doing it?

There are a lot of things that I don't like, but what is it worth (except high blood pressure) when I complain about things I know I can not change but rather cause conflicts because I make Thais lose their face if I interfere with their way of doing things???

So, you're quite happy to have a worker run an electric cable (or water pipe) 3 inches deep in your garden, where it's likely to be severed by a shovel, and not say a word?

No, I would not be happy and no, I don't say you have to pay twice what he is asking. BUT - as samran said " watch how any Thai person worth their salt acts as an overlord when people work for them". Why do you think they do that? It is common knowledge that the majority of Thai workers will find the easiest way to do things and take the path of least resistance... so 3 inch is ok if nobody insists on 3 feet...

Thai workers are used to be controlled by Thai and if Farang think that Thai workers will do their work according to western standard and to what is written (or not...) in the contract, then they should wake up fast and learn...

[giddyup]

Who is getting "walked all over"? A guy cracks 4 tiles putting up a shower rail, what should I have done, punched him out? The damage has been done, abusing him for his shoddy, careless work is likely to make him an enemy with payback in mind.

So you are paying for a shoddy, carlessly tiled bathroom?

Another gun-jumper.Who said that I paid him? Where did I say anything about tiling a bathroom? Try reading the posts rather than trying to score points.

[Soutpeel]

Who is getting "walked all over"? A guy cracks 4 tiles putting up a shower rail, what should I have done, punched him out? The damage has been done, abusing him for his shoddy, careless work is likely to make him an enemy with payback in mind.

So you are paying for a shoddy, carlessly tiled bathroom?

Another gun-jumper.Who said that I paid him? Where did I say anything about tiling a bathroom? Try reading the posts rather than trying to score points.

so if your intention was not to pay them ? maybe thats why they cracked your tiles then

[giddyup]

Maybe we need classes of "common sense" for the foreigners coming to stay in Thailand in order to teach them that this is the Land of the Thais and that their idea of "common sense" is different from ours and that it is utterly useless to constantly complain about, but get a life and start adjusting to the Thai way of doing it?

There are a lot of things that I don't like, but what is it worth (except high blood pressure) when I complain about things I know I can not change but rather cause conflicts because I make Thais lose their face if I interfere with their way of doing things???

So, you're quite happy to have a worker run an electric cable (or water pipe) 3 inches deep in your garden, where it's likely to be severed by a shovel, and not say a word?

No, I would not be happy and no, I don't say you have to pay twice what he is asking. BUT - as samran said " watch how any Thai person worth their salt acts as an overlord when people work for them". Why do you think they do that? It is common knowledge that the majority of Thai workers will find the easiest way to do things and take the path of least resistance... so 3 inch is ok if nobody insists on 3 feet...

Thai workers are used to be controlled by Thai and if Farang think that Thai workers will do their work according to western standard and to what is written (or not...) in the contract, then they should wake up fast and learn...

Hang on, you said you don't interfere because you don't want them to lose face. Now you're saying that it's OK to tell them how you want the job done. I'm confused.

[HeavyDrinker]

Well, at least we've established there is a difference between 'common sense' and bad workmanship and exactly who has shown a lack of common sense....

[giddyup]

Who is getting "walked all over"? A guy cracks 4 tiles putting up a shower rail, what should I have done, punched him out? The damage has been done, abusing him for his shoddy, careless work is likely to make him an enemy with payback in mind.

So you are paying for a shoddy, carlessly tiled bathroom?

Another gun-jumper.Who said that I paid him? Where did I say anything about tiling a bathroom? Try reading the posts rather than trying to score points.

so if your intention was not to pay them ? maybe thats why they cracked your tiles then

Are you really as stupid as you sound. Of course I had every intention of paying him, but not after he cracked 4 tiles. I really don't know why I bother trying to explain, it's like trying to nail jelly to a wall.

[Soutpeel]

Maybe we need classes of "common sense" for the foreigners coming to stay in Thailand in order to teach them that this is the Land of the Thais and that their idea of "common sense" is different from ours and that it is utterly useless to constantly complain about, but get a life and start adjusting to the Thai way of doing it?

There are a lot of things that I don't like, but what is it worth (except high blood pressure) when I complain about things I know I can not change but rather cause conflicts because I make Thais lose their face if I interfere with their way of doing things???

So, you're quite happy to have a worker run an electric cable (or water pipe) 3 inches deep in your garden, where it's likely to be severed by a shovel, and not say a word?

No, I would not be happy and no, I don't say you have to pay twice what he is asking. BUT - as samran said " watch how any Thai person worth their salt acts as an overlord when people work for them". Why do you think they do that? It is common knowledge that the majority of Thai workers will find the easiest way to do things and take the path of least resistance... so 3 inch is ok if nobody insists on 3 feet...

Thai workers are used to be controlled by Thai and if Farang think that Thai workers will do their work according to western standard and to what is written (or not...) in the contract, then they should wake up fast and learn...

"Swiss1960' me old fruit, although I agree with most of what you say....you are talking through your bottom in the last sentance.... I have around 130 Thai guys working for me in various disiplines and they all seem to be very able to work to "western standards"

[giddyup]

Well, at least we've established there is a difference between 'common sense' and bad workmanship and exactly who has shown a lack of common sense....

No need to rub it in, I've already said that I've bowed to your superior knowledge, common sense, etc, etc. Rest on your laurels.

[cardholder]

Thats a good point. Every time we take our 2 year old son to get his hair cut the hairdresser has to be physically restrained from shaving his head round his ears. Every time we tell her not to do it before she starts and then every time we need to remind her again as she is cutting which jolts her out of her drooling auto pilot mode.

"But thats how children have their hair cut in Thailand" they say.

then you go somewhere else?

You mean outside Thailand ?

[FunFon]

"Swiss1960' me old fruit, although I agree with most of what you say....you are talking through your bottom in the last sentance.... I have around 130 Thai guys working for me in various disiplines and they all seem to be very able to work to "western standards"

But please don't try to claim you got to that point without well-refined processes of selection, training and supervision etc.

Grab the average guy off the street who claims to have that skill and set him to work with minimal oversight and you don't get the same result do you?

And yes this is true in most places not just Thailand. . .

Edited March 21, 2013 by FunFon

[HeavyDrinker]

Davo, common sense would be to stop funding your wife's gambling habits laddie...

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Well Thailand could definitely get a common sense upgrade.

Examples abound. How about how many many drivers don't anticipate future events well?

Could common sense improve as it relates to other people health and safety?

If you have to ask your sense of reality is in need of an upgrade.

This would be very consistent with Thailands belief that they are all about respecting others.

[HeavyDrinker]

Well, at least we've established there is a difference between 'common sense' and bad workmanship and exactly who has shown a lack of common sense....

No need to rub it in, I've already said that I've bowed to your superior knowledge, common sense, etc, etc. Rest on your laurels.

Maybe, but there is a clear pattern emerging here.

It does seem that the chaps who were screaming here that the Thai's show a basic lack of 'common sense' seem themselves to be thicker than an elephant's love pump...

[FunFon]

Maybe, but there is a clear pattern emerging here.

It does seem that the chaps who were screaming here that the Thai's show a basic lack of 'common sense' seem themselves to be thicker than an elephant's love pump...

-

Just for having unreasonably high expectations.

[Swiss1960]

Maybe we need classes of "common sense" for the foreigners coming to stay in Thailand in order to teach them that this is the Land of the Thais and that their idea of "common sense" is different from ours and that it is utterly useless to constantly complain about, but get a life and start adjusting to the Thai way of doing it?

There are a lot of things that I don't like, but what is it worth (except high blood pressure) when I complain about things I know I can not change but rather cause conflicts because I make Thais lose their face if I interfere with their way of doing things???

So, you're quite happy to have a worker run an electric cable (or water pipe) 3 inches deep in your garden, where it's likely to be severed by a shovel, and not say a word?

No, I would not be happy and no, I don't say you have to pay twice what he is asking. BUT - as samran said " watch how any Thai person worth their salt acts as an overlord when people work for them". Why do you think they do that? It is common knowledge that the majority of Thai workers will find the easiest way to do things and take the path of least resistance... so 3 inch is ok if nobody insists on 3 feet...

Thai workers are used to be controlled by Thai and if Farang think that Thai workers will do their work according to western standard and to what is written (or not...) in the contract, then they should wake up fast and learn...

"Swiss1960' me old fruit, although I agree with most of what you say....you are talking through your bottom in the last sentance.... I have around 130 Thai guys working for me in various disiplines and they all seem to be very able to work to "western standards"

Ok, I have to admit, this was an unfair generalisation. I am a regular customer at Bruno's in Pattaya and the waiters there are trained to the highest Swiss standard of doing their job... but talk with Chief Freddy and he will tell you that it needs 24x7 monitoring to keep that up...

[yourauntbob]

As for my comment that Thais are resistant to new ideas, that's a hard fact and not a judgement call.

It's also <deleted>. You've obviously never worked with any Thais....

As for my comment that Thais are resistant to new ideas, that's a hard fact and not a judgement call.

It's also <deleted>. You've obviously never worked with any Thais....

I need to go with Giddyup on this one, i rarely meet Thai's that are more interested in things being done correctly than they are with losing face.

[giddyup]

HeavyDrinker, on 21 Mar 2013 - 12:58, said:

giddyup, on 21 Mar 2013 - 12:48, said:

HeavyDrinker, on 21 Mar 2013 - 12:45, said:

Well, at least we've established there is a difference between 'common sense' and bad workmanship and exactly who has shown a lack of common sense....

No need to rub it in, I've already said that I've bowed to your superior knowledge, common sense, etc, etc. Rest on your laurels.

Maybe, but there is a clear pattern emerging here.

It does seem that the chaps who were screaming here that the Thai's show a basic lack of 'common sense' seem themselves to be thicker than an elephant's love pump...

You only hear what you want to hear. I could list at least 20 examples (I'm being conservative) of the lack of common sense in Thailand and you and others would argue that the Thais have a "different" kind of common sense that we poor ignorant falangs just don't understand. This exercise in futility has worn me out. Exit left.

[Soutpeel]

"Swiss1960' me old fruit, although I agree with most of what you say....you are talking through your bottom in the last sentance.... I have around 130 Thai guys working for me in various disiplines and they all seem to be very able to work to "western standards"

But please don't try to claim you got to that point without well-refined processes of selection, training and supervision etc.

Grab the average guy off the street who claims to have that skill and set him to work with minimal oversight and you don't get the same result do you?

And yes this is true in most places not just Thailand. . .

Not trying to claim anything....Thai workers are no different to any workers I have worked in in various places in the world...including farang land, the the distinct advantage I have found with Thai workers over a lot a farangland workers is that they are not smart <deleted>, with a sense of entitlement

if you show them exactly what you want and communicate this effectively...you will get what you want

I dont have a habit of grabbing people off the street just to do work...this applies in Thailand and everywhere else I have worked including farangland... due dilligence and all and of course applying common sense

[Swiss1960]

Maybe we need classes of "common sense" for the foreigners coming to stay in Thailand in order to teach them that this is the Land of the Thais and that their idea of "common sense" is different from ours and that it is utterly useless to constantly complain about, but get a life and start adjusting to the Thai way of doing it?

There are a lot of things that I don't like, but what is it worth (except high blood pressure) when I complain about things I know I can not change but rather cause conflicts because I make Thais lose their face if I interfere with their way of doing things???

So, you're quite happy to have a worker run an electric cable (or water pipe) 3 inches deep in your garden, where it's likely to be severed by a shovel, and not say a word?

No, I would not be happy and no, I don't say you have to pay twice what he is asking. BUT - as samran said " watch how any Thai person worth their salt acts as an overlord when people work for them". Why do you think they do that? It is common knowledge that the majority of Thai workers will find the easiest way to do things and take the path of least resistance... so 3 inch is ok if nobody insists on 3 feet...

Thai workers are used to be controlled by Thai and if Farang think that Thai workers will do their work according to western standard and to what is written (or not...) in the contract, then they should wake up fast and learn...

Hang on, you said you don't interfere because you don't want them to lose face. Now you're saying that it's OK to tell them how you want the job done. I'm confused.

Sorry that I confused you. Not interfering was meant for things I can't change... i.e. how people work in banks when some don't want to open an account with me and other's will... if they don't, I will not ask for the manager but walk out and find another bank... or service in restaurants: if I don't like it, I will not complain to the manager and not try to tell him what could have been done better, but walk out and find another place for my next meals... I know that my complaints would be useless.

Interfering however is when I have a job to do and then I tell them from the beginning how I want the job to be done. So when he starts to dig 3 inch, I will tell him "I want 3 feet". Of course, he might try to tell me "we always do 3 inch", but then you have to insist and say "that is ok, but me, I want 3 feet". Right now, he will not lose face, because he can tell his co-workers "crazy farang, lets do 3 feet for him", but if you don't control and find 3 inch and then start to teach him how bad he did his job and that he should have done 3 feet, then you cause loss of face and you are (in my opinion) at fault for not controlling from the start.

[HeavyDrinker]

You only hear what you want to hear. I could list at least 20 examples (I'm being conservative) of the lack of common sense in Thailand

Please do!

I did ask you to back in the first page...but make sure they're exclusively 'Thai' lacks of common sense and don't then dig yourself into such a hole as you did here...but cheers for making this Thursday afternoon pass...

[giddyup]

HeavyDrinker, on 21 Mar 2013 - 13:09, said:

Quote

You only hear what you want to hear. I could list at least 20 examples (I'm being conservative) of the lack of common sense in Thailand

Please do!

I did ask you to back in the first page...but make sure they're exclusively 'Thai' lacks of common sense and don't then dig yourself into such a hole as you did here...but cheers for making this Thursday afternoon pass...

Waste of time. You couldn't be convinced no matter what I said. You're not interested in a constructive discussion, only point scoring. Your rep precedes you. Hang on, I've already exited. Edited March 21, 2013 by giddyup

[cardholder]

So, you're quite happy to have a worker run an electric cable (or water pipe) 3 inches deep in your garden, where it's likely to be severed by a shovel, and not say a word?

No, I would not be happy and no, I don't say you have to pay twice what he is asking. BUT - as samran said " watch how any Thai person worth their salt acts as an overlord when people work for them". Why do you think they do that? It is common knowledge that the majority of Thai workers will find the easiest way to do things and take the path of least resistance... so 3 inch is ok if nobody insists on 3 feet...

Thai workers are used to be controlled by Thai and if Farang think that Thai workers will do their work according to western standard and to what is written (or not...) in the contract, then they should wake up fast and learn...

Hang on, you said you don't interfere because you don't want them to lose face. Now you're saying that it's OK to tell them how you want the job done. I'm confused.

Sorry that I confused you. Not interfering was meant for things I can't change... i.e. how people work in banks when some don't want to open an account with me and other's will... if they don't, I will not ask for the manager but walk out and find another bank... or service in restaurants: if I don't like it, I will not complain to the manager and not try to tell him what could have been done better, but walk out and find another place for my next meals... I know that my complaints would be useless.

Interfering however is when I have a job to do and then I tell them from the beginning how I want the job to be done. So when he starts to dig 3 inch, I will tell him "I want 3 feet". Of course, he might try to tell me "we always do 3 inch", but then you have to insist and say "that is ok, but me, I want 3 feet". Right now, he will not lose face, because he can tell his co-workers "crazy farang, lets do 3 feet for him", but if you don't control and find 3 inch and then start to teach him how bad he did his job and that he should have done 3 feet, then you cause loss of face and you are (in my opinion) at fault for not controlling from the start.

You do understand how utterly ridiculous that sounds in the cold light of day ?

[Soutpeel]

HeavyDrinker, on 21 Mar 2013 - 13:09, said:

Quote

You only hear what you want to hear. I could list at least 20 examples (I'm being conservative) of the lack of common sense in Thailand

Please do!

I did ask you to back in the first page...but make sure they're exclusively 'Thai' lacks of common sense and don't then dig yourself into such a hole as you did here...but cheers for making this Thursday afternoon pass...

Waste of time. You couldn't be convinced no matter what I said. You're not interested in a constructive discussion, only point scoring. Your rep precedes you. Hang on, I've already exited.

so why you still posting ?....I too wait with great anticipation for your "list"

[samran]

Thats a good point. Every time we take our 2 year old son to get his hair cut the hairdresser has to be physically restrained from shaving his head round his ears. Every time we tell her not to do it before she starts and then every time we need to remind her again as she is cutting which jolts her out of her drooling auto pilot mode.

"But thats how children have their hair cut in Thailand" they say.

then you go somewhere else?

You mean outside Thailand ?

No, just up the road. My wife usually takes about 3 or 4 shots at finding the right hairdresser. Costs me 6000 baht a try.

[HeijoshinCool]

Common Sense ... "should be no 1 Subject at the Schools ..."

Who would teach it?