Gay Marriage Cases Soon To Be Heard By American Supreme Court -- It's Complicated

[LeCharivari]

Just in passing, gays in the military may not seem a big deal, numbers-wise, but when you consider the numbers of women in the military (over 200,000 in the US) its a fair number ... and of those, estimates are that lesbians in same sex relationships are twice as likely to join the military as straight women.

In other countries where there are no restrictions on gays/lesbians in the military estimates are as high as 70% for the number of women in the military who are lesbians.

[Jingthing]

It's a VERY big deal. The military of course has great symbolism in the USA and most countries as well. In U.S. politics the American SOUTH is the region most strongly linked to the military. The exact same region with the most unfavorable chances of states going for popular votes for gay marriage equality. This helps. But in the long run it will be the supreme court that brings the south forward on this by law.

[LeCharivari]

It's a VERY big deal. The military of course has great symbolism in the USA and most countries as well. In U.S. politics the American SOUTH is the region most strongly linked to the military. The exact same region with the most unfavorable chances of states going for popular votes for gay marriage equality. This helps. But in the long run it will be the supreme court that brings the south forward on this by law.

Mathematically it may not - lesbians are more likely to join the military, and they could then be posted to a military base outside their home state losing that state gay votes. It could, of course, work the other way round too.

The other problem is that having a preponderance of lesbians in the military puts some straight women off joining - I'm not saying it should, just saying that it does and that in some countries its now starting to be a problem and affecting recruiting. Not really on topic, though, so best kept for another thread if anyone's interested.

[Jingthing]

That is not what I meant. I wasn't speaking about the votes of the ladies being significant. I was speaking of the CULTURE changing around gay rights which it is already in MUCH of the USA, but less so in the south.

[LeCharivari]

That is not what I meant. I wasn't speaking about the votes of the ladies being significant. I was speaking of the CULTURE changing around gay rights which it is already in MUCH of the USA, but less so in the south.

That was why I said "mathematically" to avoid any confusion.

As far as the "CULTURE" is concerned, this may or may not be a good thing. While the symbolism of the military in the US is well known and the number of lesbians serving could be a good thing in terms of demonstrating their loyalty, willingness to serve and sacrifice, etc, it could equally be a bad thing as far as acceptance goes as it strengthens the lesbian stereotype.

[Jingthing]

I wasn't speaking only about lesbians. I was speaking about the new and very supportive policy of the U.S. military regarding same sex MARRIAGE, male or female. The military has to follow the law but they have gone above and beyond what is legally required of them at this point. This sends a cultural signal to the entire country about a sea change that is REALLY happening regarding mainstreaming of gay people in the society as a whole. I think this message is especially important in the south, the U.S.'s most change resistant region.

For some this is all about literalism and legal nit picking. The actual REALITY is a major more ABSTRACT goal, already largely met of the gay MARRIAGE equality movement in the USA is to indeed win the HEARTS and MINDS of the majority of the American public, whether specific anti-discrimination laws or not are passed in various regions, to be reflected in much less discrimination of ALL KINDS against gay people.

You can be quite sure if 75 percent of Americans under 30 are explicitly FOR marriage equality, then those same people will be AGAINST any and all forms of anti-gay DISCRIMINATION.

In any society you can NEVER eliminate all racism, sexism, homophobia, antisemitism, etc. whether you have strict laws about these things or not. But you can work towards reducing these evils to a more tolerable level.

Unlike the foreign critics here who amazingly fail to get the specific to the USA tactics of the gay marriage equality movement in the USA ... the gay marriage equality movement AND the gay civil rights movement are the SAME THING with the same long term goals.

FIRST CLASS CITIZENSHIP in every way. Simple as that. Hard as that too.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Franklin Kameny as an old man, father of the American gay civil rights movement, posing in front of one of his early pre-Stonewall era protest signs. Kameny was always more of MAINSTREAM gay activist, not a separatist radical. He popularized the slogan: Gay Is Good which had its days of popularity back then.

This shows the EARLY roots of the American gay civil rights movement associating philisophically with the American black civil rights movement with a focus on EQUALITY and one of the cherished American civil rights principles -- separate but equal is NOT equal.

[Jingthing]

Just to add Kameny lived to see the day when much of his early vision for gay EQUALITY had been realized. Yes, of course, much more work to do, but it was clear to Kameny by his death and gay Americans in general that the full goals will be met and in less time than we ever thought:

[LeCharivari]

I wasn't speaking only about lesbians. I was speaking about the new and very supportive policy of the U.S. military regarding same sex MARRIAGE, male or female. The military has to follow the law but they have gone above and beyond what is legally required of them at this point. This sends a cultural signal to the entire country about a sea change that is REALLY happening regarding mainstreaming of gay people in the society as a whole. I think this message is especially important in the south, the U.S.'s most change resistant region.

For some this is all about literalism and legal nit picking. The actual REALITY is a major more ABSTRACT goal, already largely met of the gay MARRIAGE equality movement in the USA is to indeed win the HEARTS and MINDS of the majority of the American public, whether specific anti-discrimination laws or not are passed in various regions, to be reflected in much less discrimination of ALL KINDS against gay people.

You can be quite sure if 75 percent of Americans under 30 are explicitly FOR marriage equality, then those same people will be AGAINST any and all forms of anti-gay DISCRIMINATION.

In any society you can NEVER eliminate all racism, sexism, homophobia, antisemitism, etc. whether you have strict laws about these things or not. But you can work towards reducing these evils to a more tolerable level.

Unlike the foreign critics here who amazingly fail to get the specific to the USA tactics of the gay marriage equality movement in the USA ... the gay marriage equality movement AND the gay civil rights movement are the SAME THING with the same long term goals.

FIRST CLASS CITIZENSHIP in every way. Simple as that. Hard as that too.

image.w174h200f3.jpg

"The military has to follow the law but they have gone above and beyond what is legally required of them at this point."

Agreed - it is a pity that others in the USA have not followed their example, giving gays more rights and financial benefits NOW rather than at some time in the future.

[Jingthing]

That's what a civil rights struggle is all about. Getting organized, getting focused, getting funded, getting power, and keeping up the pressure RELENTLESSLY. I know, I know, you think the big issue is federal rights for the few civil union states. The American gay civil rights movement DOESN'T. Best to accept that POLITICAL reality. What the American gay civil rights movement wants is for those remaining 4 civil union states to UPGRADE (say convert if you like, it's the SAME thing) to first class (in the American system) and fully equal in ALL respects, MARRIAGE. That is our path. Americans aren't saying other countries should follow the same path as different countries have very different SITUATIONS. Foreigners don't have to like it. We have different priorities than you perhaps. Perhaps we are more IDEALISTIC, as if that is a fault. Perhaps willing to take more time to win the FULL thing. In any case, you're wasting your time. There is no significant constituency anymore in the U.S. pushing civil unions vs. marriage. The focus now is clearly gay marriage proponents vs. gay marriage opponents. Simple really.

For people who think civil unions are the thing, my advice, focus on another country than the U.S. A superficial reading of recent U.S. history will show you the truth of this -- civil unions in the USA are on the way OUT, the only question is exactly how many years it will take until is vanishes entirely.

Yes, again, you can BET THE HOUSE that is going to happen and then won't you feel silly for wasting your time kvetching about something gay Americans DO NOT WANT!

Edited August 17, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

That's what a civil rights struggle is all about. Getting organized, getting focused, getting funded, getting power, and keeping up the pressure RELENTLESSLY. I know, I know, you think the big issue is federal rights for the few civil union states. The American gay civil rights movement DOESN'T. Best to accept that POLITICAL reality. What the American gay civil rights movement wants is for those remaining 4 civil union states to UPGRADE (say convert if you like, it's the SAME thing) to first class (in the American system) and fully equal in ALL respects, MARRIAGE. That is our path. Americans aren't saying other countries should follow the same path as different countries have very different SITUATIONS. Foreigners don't have to like it. We have different priorities than you perhaps. Perhaps we are more IDEALISTIC, as if that is a fault. Perhaps willing to take more time to win the FULL thing. In any case, you're wasting your time. There is no significant constituency anymore in the U.S. pushing civil unions vs. marriage. The focus now is clearly gay marriage proponents vs. gay marriage opponents. Simple really.

For people who think civil unions are the thing, my advice, focus on another country than the U.S. A superficial reading of recent U.S. history will show you the truth of this -- civil unions in the USA are on the way OUT, the only question is exactly how many years it will take until is vanishes entirely.

Yes, again, you can BET THE HOUSE that is going to happen and then won't you feel silly for wasting your time kvetching about something gay Americans DO NOT WANT!

"I know, I know, you think the big issue is federal rights for the few civil union states."

You really don't "know" what I think at all - I think the big issue is gay rights. Federal rights for the few civil union states is a very, very, very small part of that.

Maybe sticking to what YOU think rather than saying that you know what I or anyone else thinks would stop any confusion and this petty bickering

Edited August 17, 2013 by LeCharivari

[Jingthing]

Could have fooled me, dude, as most about what you post related to current U.S. issues is related to the civil union recognition thing. What else are readers supposed to think? Oy!

[Jingthing]

At this date, there are four (of the original nine) U.S. states having the American same sex civil union relic instead of marriage equality.

These are Hawaii, Illionois. Colorado, and New Jersey.

Well, it's quite probable that number will soon be three. Hawaii, the home birth state of American gay civil rights hero President Obama is set to do the upgrade:

“I think we can put together something that can achieve a solid majority, that will give us the opportunity to establish marriage equity in the state of Hawaii commensurate with the recent Supreme Court decisions, and will satisfy and resolve the issues that are presently before the appeals court on the mainland,” Abercrombie told a gathering of state Democrats.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2013/08/20/hawaii-next-for-gay-marriage-push/

After that, Illinois, a major population state and political home state of President Obama, will probably be next within a year or two.

After that, probably New Jersey, that will likely take some time.

After that, Colorado, will probably be last, and might take 10 years or so (unless there is a 50 state impacting supreme court ruling forces that earlier).

Edited August 21, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

(edited)

Yes, again, you can BET THE HOUSE that is going to happen and then won't you feel silly for wasting your time kvetching about something gay Americans DO NOT WANT!

If its likely to take TEN YEARS in a State that's ALREADY got civil unions I don't think I'll be alive for long enough to feel silly.

I'd "BET THE HOUSE" that those gay couples who can't get any recognition or rights at all because of this will feel pretty p*ss*d off, though, rather than silly, because they're being made to wait for same sex marriages when the probability is that they could have got civil unions a lot sooner.

[Jingthing]

(edited)

Yes, again, you can BET THE HOUSE that is going to happen and then won't you feel silly for wasting your time kvetching about something gay Americans DO NOT WANT!

If its likely to take TEN YEARS in a State that's ALREADY got civil unions I don't think I'll be alive for long enough to feel silly.

I'd "BET THE HOUSE" that those gay couples who can't get any recognition or rights at all because of this will feel pretty p*ss*d off, though, rather than silly, because they're being made to wait for same sex marriages when the probability is that they could have got civil unions a lot sooner.

Yeah, we've heard that about 100 times already, but the reality IS the path America has taken is marriage equality. Like it or not. Yes, I feel comfortable saying we like it, you can accept that or not. You're really crying over spilt milk. The path you advocate is the path not taken. It's over. Time to move on and go into acceptance phase.

I've actually been searching for some links from gay rights advocates in the U.S. (since the supreme court rulings) who are spinning the current gay marriage equality movement the same way that L.C. has been spinning it. I really find nothing like it. That's why I say I feel confident asserting that gay Americans like the gay marriage equality path we are on. I know L.C. will say that is only my opinion. I totally disagree. My response to that is that my opinion is that my opinion is well in the mainstream of gay American thought on the matter and thus well REPRESENTS the majority of gay Americans that care about the marriage equality issue, and most do care.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Jingthing

[Scott]

This topic has passed it's use-by-date.

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