Thai Govt's Train Project ' Will Only Benefit The Rich'

[Bluespunk]

Who will build, maintain and serve on these things? The rich?

Ask the workers & vendors in Pattaya, Hua Hin, etc. what they think of an increase in tourism because of HSR.

Think about the vegetables.

[dcutman]

Rich Thais would just fly anyway, with one trip on the train for novelty. The money would be MUCH better spent expanding the current bts/mrt system to cover all parts of BKK and metropolitan areas. The poor from the north will still used the bus/regular train to get to BKK. Still, a few will greatly benefit from this project, and that's the main reason to have it.

I am not too sure about that. Given the trip to the airport and the time required before check in and the flight, AND then the wait for luggage on arrival followed by the trip to town, I suspect some people might be willing to spend 3-4 hours on a comfortable train as oppposes to 60 - 80 minutes in a plane.

Do you not still have to get to and from the train station, as well as, go through security, check in and check and retrieve large bags, similar to airport? I am assuming there will be more leg room on the train, but I dont believe it will be drastically different than sitting on an airplane.

[Ricardo]

Your mention of Chinese long haul freight trains to Singapore caught my interest. Some months ago the Dawei multi billion baht/dollar port project was the hot topic.

It was presumably being developed in order to make a deep sea port available on the west coast (Andaman Sea) of Peninsula Burma (Myr).

Dawei town is some kms up the Dawei river, but I thought the idea was to by pass Singapore, located at the southern tip of Malaysia at the very congested Singapore Strait.

Since Malaysia has the same narrow gauge system as Thailand, surely the new standard gauge (4'8") Chinese freight connection would be run through Laos or Viet Nam across Thailand entering Burma through Kanchanaburi province.

This Dawei port completely eliminates the need for shipping from the west having to negotiate the Singapore Strait. This is probably something the Singapore government will fight tooth and nail.

Perhaps someone with a more detailed knowledge knows what the situation is on this project at present.

I suspect that using relatively-cheap/short dual-track freight lines might make better economic-sense, for land-bridges between Laem Chabang and Dawei, and also further South between Songkla and Satun or Pak Bara's proposed new deep-water port ? Wonder what the feasability-studies say ?

And China might well want/need more than one option, for sending their freight South to the sea, a major seaport like Singapore would feed into existing container-routes to their major export-markets.

[NCFC]

And there were the same whinges and moans when the Skytrain was built "Too expensive for normal Thais".... blah,blah, blah, moan,moan,moan

And then the MRT was built and the whingers were at it again. "Too expensive, no one will use it..." blah,blah,blah

You'd think no TV member ever travelled on Skytrain or MRT as all this modernisation is just too expensive.

"HSR..." moan, moan, whinge....

[Ricardo]

i hope there will be an option to put YOUR CAR on the track and go to for example chiang mai, would that not make more sense? save gas, save the planet (a bit)

Or for cars & freight heading South towards the Malaysian border, if the current single-track line could handle the extra traffic ?

Those old British Rail overnight-trains carrying cars/passengers to Scotland, or down to the South-of-France, might apply equally here too.

[dcutman]

Who will build, maintain and serve on these things? The rich?

Ask the workers & vendors in Pattaya, Hua Hin, etc. what they think of an increase in tourism because of HSR.

Since there has been no studies done, and are in progress. What will cause the dramatic increase in tourism?

I also wonder what the thousands of bus, van, and taxi drivers think of this mass transit option, as well as all the vendors, fuel stations, and mom and pop shops along these busy routes.

Edited March 30, 2013 by dcutman

[Thai at Heart]

Rich Thais would just fly anyway, with one trip on the train for novelty. The money would be MUCH better spent expanding the current bts/mrt system to cover all parts of BKK and metropolitan areas. The poor from the north will still used the bus/regular train to get to BKK. Still, a few will greatly benefit from this project, and that's the main reason to have it.

I am not too sure about that. Given the trip to the airport and the time required before check in and the flight, AND then the wait for luggage on arrival followed by the trip to town, I suspect some people might be willing to spend 3-4 hours on a comfortable train as oppposes to 60 - 80 minutes in a plane.

Do you not still have to get to and from the train station, as well as, go through security, check in and check and retrieve large bags, similar to airport? I am assuming there will be more leg room on the train, but I dont believe it will be drastically different than sitting on an airplane.

A one hour plane flight for me to Bangkok, entails a 3 and a half hour minimum. Actually not enough time to do any work on the plane. So if you can arrive 10 minutes before the train leaves and get off at the other end, you have some time to do some work, and a lot less hassled environment than airports etc. I will use it, and I understand everyone's complaints about the cost, but there we are.

The existing network has been neglected for so long, it will be good that the dual tracking and such occurs also, but when the existing best service is 12 hours from where we are to Bangkok, it really is useless. I forsee, that the amount of domestic flying will reduce, which in its own way, will be a relief to TG anyway. I wonder if civil servants will have to pay full fare on the train, because from what I see, a very large percentage of seats on domestic flights are given over to govt employess, so no wonder the fares for the rest of us are relatively high.

[wiyada]

Who will build, maintain and serve on these things? The rich?

Ask the workers & vendors in Pattaya, Hua Hin, etc. what they think of an increase in tourism because of HSR.

Since there has been no studies done, and are in progress. What will cause the dramatic increase in tourism?

I also wonder what the thousands of bus, van, and taxi drivers think of this mass transit option, as well as all the vendors, fuel stations, and mom and pop shops along these busy routes.

Like those points would even be considered ! This is not about helping the poor it is about bringing Thailand into the 21st Century with a little(ish) graft for those hard working Goverment members and top Civil Servants.

You want to stop the progress, tell the Phuket Taxi Mafia that it will endanger their jobs, problem solved

[animatic]

Rich Thais would just fly anyway, with one trip on the train for novelty. The money would be MUCH better spent expanding the current bts/mrt system to cover all parts of BKK and metropolitan areas. The poor from the north will still used the bus/regular train to get to BKK. Still, a few will greatly benefit from this project, and that's the main reason to have it.

This is not about average Thais traveling, but about making a route to the west seas

for Western Chinese goods, at a value-added fee for Thailand's oligarchs.

It will also move some people.

Edited March 30, 2013 by animatic

[billd766]

A whole newtrack system will have to be laid as the existing system is a 1 metre guage.

It will be virtually impossible to build using the current tracks and the tack bed is falling apart in many places anyway and many other places get washed out and flooded.

More fodder for the trough.

[dcutman]

Rich Thais would just fly anyway, with one trip on the train for novelty. The money would be MUCH better spent expanding the current bts/mrt system to cover all parts of BKK and metropolitan areas. The poor from the north will still used the bus/regular train to get to BKK. Still, a few will greatly benefit from this project, and that's the main reason to have it.

I am not too sure about that. Given the trip to the airport and the time required before check in and the flight, AND then the wait for luggage on arrival followed by the trip to town, I suspect some people might be willing to spend 3-4 hours on a comfortable train as oppposes to 60 - 80 minutes in a plane.

Do you not still have to get to and from the train station, as well as, go through security, check in and check and retrieve large bags, similar to airport? I am assuming there will be more leg room on the train, but I dont believe it will be drastically different than sitting on an airplane.

A one hour plane flight for me to Bangkok, entails a 3 and a half hour minimum. Actually not enough time to do any work on the plane. So if you can arrive 10 minutes before the train leaves and get off at the other end, you have some time to do some work, and a lot less hassled environment than airports etc. I will use it, and I understand everyone's complaints about the cost, but there we are.

The existing network has been neglected for so long, it will be good that the dual tracking and such occurs also, but when the existing best service is 12 hours from where we are to Bangkok, it really is useless. I forsee, that the amount of domestic flying will reduce, which in its own way, will be a relief to TG anyway. I wonder if civil servants will have to pay full fare on the train, because from what I see, a very large percentage of seats on domestic flights are given over to govt employess, so no wonder the fares for the rest of us are relatively high.

First off lets not blur the very needed, modernization and expansion of the dual track plan, with the HSR.

The one needs to be done ASAP, and the other should not even be talked about until, all the other desperately needed infrastructure (modern electric grid, sewage and hazardous waste treatment plants and garbage disposal) infrastructure is substantially improved upon.

[ChrisY1]

Personally, I think HS rail is a terrific mode of transport......but I don't see Thailand being able to manage this.....unless the operation is managed by a competant 3rd. party group, totally indepebdent of the government.

[bigbamboo]

Rich Thais would just fly anyway, with one trip on the train for novelty. The money would be MUCH better spent expanding the current bts/mrt system to cover all parts of BKK and metropolitan areas. The poor from the north will still used the bus/regular train to get to BKK. Still, a few will greatly benefit from this project, and that's the main reason to have it.

Agree. The high speed train will fall between two stools....... too slow for the rich who would fly and too expensive for the poor who would still take the bus. It will become something that is particularly, a white elephant.

Still there's always the fruit and veg run!

[rubl]

So, speed up of double tracking and maybe even some shiny new double tracks to regions which don't have them yet is not in the plans?

BTW the Songkhran exodus clearly and obviously shows the need for high speed rail lines :-)

[ZhouZhou]

So, speed up of double tracking and maybe even some shiny new double tracks to regions which don't have them yet is not in the plans?

BTW the Songkhran exodus clearly and obviously shows the need for high speed rail lines :-)

who said it isn't?

[rubl]

I may have missed it, but who said "new double tracks and speed up of double tracking existing links" is planned, will be started, real soon now?

[SiggiCM]

49,600 commuters a day? crazy? even not half of this number will use such a train and you can fly for 500 baht from CM to Bkk if you book in advance, for 1500 to 2000 baht you can fly for sure if you book same day, why I should take a train if for the same money I can fly and it takes max 2,5 hours, 1 hour before take off, 1 hour flight, 30 minutes to go out

a high speed train not make sense until all train system is up to date, you need experiences for such a project, staff, a 20-year plan for infrastructure, but nowhere in thailand you see any plans and projects, traiffic become more crowdy and everybody wait until it will collaps one day,

Edited March 30, 2013 by SiggiCM

[ZhouZhou]

I may have missed it, but who said "new double tracks and speed up of double tracking existing links" is planned, will be started, real soon now?

i heard something about these double tracks planned.

[rubl]

Now please pay attention and try to understand what you read.

Doubling of tracks was planned in 2009-2010 and the plan goes on till about 2024 with a budget of THB 345 billion over that period. That's separate from the all-new, grand masterplan with high-speed implementation and even trains.

[huahinjoe]

Would be wiser to spend that money on current infrastructure including proper roads, highways, railways, bring some foreign engineers to create a feasible study and workplan to come up to a standard where Malaysia or other developed Asian countries at the moment. Need to cope with the daily traffic, accidents, pollution future-wise. Lack of planning, short sight view on greedy politicans and unhealthy business practices lead to a long term corrupt nation.

Just take a look on Google Maps the proper highways is only around BKK, other countries has it Nationwide. Even the poorer Cambodia or Vietnam has much more highways then Thailand has. And im not talk about the double lane roadways what Thais call Highway which has u-turns every few km.

Anyway, this High Speed train network is only a show off because the country needs this to be proud. Probably will be cheaper to travel by Airplane (Well, not to Samui surely). Lack of economic and ecological studies clearly show its all about contracting companies who will benefit the rich thais. It`s just another blow to the increasing number of country debt in general.

[Xonax]

"Train project 'will only benefit the rich"

What is actually wrong with, that the train project will only benefit the rich???

It is in fact only the rich who will pay for it!!!

[ratcatcher]

And there were the same whinges and moans when the Skytrain was built "Too expensive for normal Thais".... blah,blah, blah, moan,moan,moan

And then the MRT was built and the whingers were at it again. "Too expensive, no one will use it..." blah,blah,blah

You'd think no TV member ever travelled on Skytrain or MRT as all this modernisation is just too expensive.

"HSR..." moan, moan, whinge....

The Sktrain (BTS) and the underground (MRT) are there to move Bangkok citizens and in town travelers around Bangkok.

Most of the riders are 'middle class or working class Thais living in and near Bangkok.

The so called HST (High Speed Train ) which is a new catchphrase for fast efficient railway will link half a dozen or so large cities in Thailand with Bangkok. The BTS & MRT are almost at capacity at peak times, not likely on the HST.

Thinking about the possibilities of such a system is a good thing, providing the corruption involved can be kept to a minimum (unlikely)

Better to upgrade, modernize the existing railway system with track ,signalling and rolling stock/locomotive purchases.

Maybe even add a few special cars for carrying gravy. Moan, whinge,carp & bitch x 2.

[Ricardo]

But if the infrastructure-upgrade fails to make enough over the 50 years, to pay back the loans, then it will be the poor taxpayer who loses out, or are rich Thais and overseas investors going to buy these bonds without a government-guarantee to back them up ?

And the idea of making the high-speed-passenger train-operating company independent, of the debt-bearing network-building quango doesn't strike me as brilliant either, too much danger of the track-use charge being unrealistic IMO !

Not that I'd suggest that someone might take a bribe, to set the charges lower, than they should be ! Perish the thought !

[ZhouZhou]

"Train project 'will only benefit the rich"

What is actually wrong with, that the train project will only benefit the rich???

It is in fact only the rich who will pay for it!!!

don't fall for that socialist propaganda. everyone will benefit somehow.

[Ricardo]

Maybe even add a few special cars for carrying gravy. Moan, whinge,carp & bitch x 2.

Might that be the perishable fresh-goods which the PM refers to, do you think ?

Perhaps the line might also be used to carry flood-water away from the capital, to drought-ridden areas, to help grow more overpriced-rice ! I must call DPM-Plodprasop, with that idea ! You know, I think I'm finally getting the hang, of this management-consultancy lark !

[comserve]

In other words, a 700km journey could cost between Bt1,800 and Bt2,000, higher than some low-cost airlines.

"If there are fewer than 49,600 commuters per day, the ticket costs will be even higher.

"For those who think the tickets [for the high-speed train] will be expensive, I think everyone understands that the target groups differ

from those using double-track

So the target group is Thai's (that dont drive their own car) and tourist that will use HSR vs air travel and other modes of transport. I am not sure, According to the OP, it looks like to break even on investment, there needs to be nearly 50k pax a day or 18.25 mil pax a year traveling one way on the 4 routs. According to TAT there 22 mill tourist came last year.

Tourist going directly to Pattaya or Hua Hin from airport or BKK will most likely just use a van or Taxi, and only use the HSR one way back to BKK. Not sure how many tourist go to Nakhon Rachasima but another short hop from BKK. Chaing Mai rout makes sense because of the distance but only 5 million tourist go there a year (2 mill being foreigners), but again not sure how many tourist go to points between Bkk and Chiang Mai.

The target numbers dont add up all that well, for the nearly Bt 1 trillion investment.

You seem to only know BKK and Chang Mai. Personally, living in Buriram, I would drive to Nakhon Rachasima & then get a fast train through to BKK rather than drive into BKK. (as long as there was a secure car park in Nakhon Rachasima)!

[dcutman]

In other words, a 700km journey could cost between Bt1,800 and Bt2,000, higher than some low-cost airlines.

"If there are fewer than 49,600 commuters per day, the ticket costs will be even higher.

"For those who think the tickets [for the high-speed train] will be expensive, I think everyone understands that the target groups differ

from those using double-track

So the target group is Thai's (that dont drive their own car) and tourist that will use HSR vs air travel and other modes of transport. I am not sure, According to the OP, it looks like to break even on investment, there needs to be nearly 50k pax a day or 18.25 mil pax a year traveling one way on the 4 routs. According to TAT there 22 mill tourist came last year.

Tourist going directly to Pattaya or Hua Hin from airport or BKK will most likely just use a van or Taxi, and only use the HSR one way back to BKK. Not sure how many tourist go to Nakhon Rachasima but another short hop from BKK. Chaing Mai rout makes sense because of the distance but only 5 million tourist go there a year (2 mill being foreigners), but again not sure how many tourist go to points between Bkk and Chiang Mai.

The target numbers dont add up all that well, for the nearly Bt 1 trillion investment.

You seem to only know BKK and Chang Mai. Personally, living in Buriram, I would drive to Nakhon Rachasima & then get a fast train through to BKK rather than drive into BKK. (as long as there was a secure car park in Nakhon Rachasima)!

I think I mentioned all routes. Ok, what if you have some company with you, wife, GF, child, friend? Now you are paying for two or three tickets when you could just drive a few hours farther to BKK.

Now Is there millions more from the north east going to drive hours to N R and get on the train to BKK? Or get on the train in BKK to NR, then get on a bus to their final destination?

[ZhouZhou]

Now please pay attention and try to understand what you read.

Doubling of tracks was planned in 2009-2010 and the plan goes on till about 2024 with a budget of THB 345 billion over that period. That's separate from the all-new, grand masterplan with high-speed implementation and even trains.

see it is in the plans and someone said it isn't.

[OzMick]

"Train project 'will only benefit the rich"

What is actually wrong with, that the train project will only benefit the rich???

It is in fact only the rich who will pay for it!!!

While the rich may pay higher amounts of tax (but not necessarily higher percentages of gross income), once tax revenue is collected it belongs to ALL the people of Thailand. Not the government, whose duty is to spend it for the benefit of ALL the people of Thailand.

Upgrading track and rolling stock, double tracking, electrification and even extension of the system will cost far less and benefit many more people than a HSR for the rich.

[Thereisnoif]

It will benefit my company as well, so I can't complain ( and I ain't rich).