Liverpool F.c.

[carmine]

Carmine, didnt Spurs bid 25m for Carroll on the final day of the January window?

And look if you guys had paid 40m for Suarez, I bet it would have been money well spent because you would be in the champions league next year.

But the reason that LFC's supporters are perfectly happy to see 35m spent on Carroll is that it shows the owners CAN and will.

The problem I see with Comolli and Dalglish is not over acquisitions. I am sure they can agree on that. I think Comolli and Dalglish can work together because they are so fundamentally different. I suspect Dalglish sees 35m for Carroll as ridiculous but he is happy to have him in the team. Where they may fall out is over which players to keep.

I also think people underestimate how much FSG are going to be involved in the decision making process.

Your posts are normally quite interesting but this one is the biggest load of rubbish from start to finish that i have ever read from you.

I believe we were sniffing around Carroll at a more realistic 10-15m mark, which i thought was too much for such an unproven young player at the top level. You make the mistake of listening to unfounded rumours spread by clueless hacks. Tottenhan are as tight as two coats of paint and would NEVER dream of offering that for a youngster that "might be quite good." Levy would boff up his cheese bagel at the thought.

The rest is too silly to discuss.

Edited April 28, 2011 by carmine

[StevieH]

yes, 17m on david bentley three years ago now looks like a proper steal carmine.

carroll was never going to go for less than 30m. newcastle didn't want to sell, we were flush with money from the torres sale. the fee we paid for carroll doesn't really bother me in the slightest. over-priced? sure. most players are. but if you want/need someone badly enough then you pay it. it was january, there's the english tax etc. ho hum.

[Abrak]

Your posts are normally quite interesting but this one is the biggest load of rubbish from start to finish that i have ever read from you.

I believe we were sniffing around Carroll at a more realistic 10-15m mark, which i thought was too much for such an unproven young player at the top level. You make the mistake of listening to unfounded rumours spread by clueless hacks. Tottenhan are as tight as two coats of paint and would NEVER dream of offering that for a youngster that "might be quite good." Levy would boff up his cheese bagel at the thought.

The rest is too silly to discuss.

Well if you put 'spurs bid 25m for Carroll' into google, there are loads of entries.

Certainly enough of them that I would guess you dont know enough to actually say it isnt true.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/226044/Spurs-25m-Carroll-bid-an-insult-ToonSpurs-25m-Carroll-bid-an-insult-ToonSpurs-25m-Carroll-bid-an-insult-ToonSpurs-25m-Carroll-bid-an-insult-ToonSpurs-25m-Carroll-bid-an-insult-ToonSpurs-25m-Carroll-bid-an-insult-ToonSpurs-25m-Carroll-bid-an-insult-ToonSpurs-25m-Carroll-bid-an-insult-ToonSpurs-25m-Carroll-bid-an-insult-ToonSpurs-25m-Carroll-bid-an-insult-Toon

http://www.talksport.co.uk/sports-news/football/premier-league/4873/8/newcastle-reject-%C2%A325m-bid-spurs-andy-carroll

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Transfer-news-Tottenham-offer-25m-for-Newcastle-Andy-Carroll-Manchester-United-want-Ajax-Martin-Stekelenburg-to-replace-Edwin-van-der-Sar-Blackburn-go-for-West-Brom-Graham-Dorrans-and-Chelsea-back-in-for-Bolton-Gary-Cahill-Rumours-and-gossip-from-Saturday-papers-article684375.html

http://www.people.co.uk/sport/football/football-hotline/2011/01/16/harry-redknapp-in-25m-bid-for-toon-star-andy-carroll-102039-22852159/

Blah... blah.... blah.... it is written in stone within the world's greatest tabloid press.

As to why you would buy Carroll when you needed a striker right away and he isnt even fully fit is beyond me. I 'still' maintain that if you had paid 40m for Suarez you would have got it back in the CL qualification. But there is no point discussing would hes should hes could hes.

Edited April 30, 2011 by mrbojangles
Link removed by request

[StevieH]

would jockstar or mrbojangles mind deleting that reference to the s*n website out of the liverpool thread please? fuc_king offensive that is.

and abrak, thought you'd know better mate.

Edited April 28, 2011 by StevieH

[Abrak]

I will be the first to admit that LFC have made some terrible signings. Konchesky, Poulsen, Cole and Jovanovic in the past year. We may have paid too much for Carroll but he is at least a player that we really want in the team and with plenty of potential.

Carmine, at the end of the day, Spurs signed absolutely noone and that is what is going to cost you guys. We all know that Levy is not going to take your club to the brink of bankruptcy to challenge for the top. We all know you will do well slightly below the big clubs. I am a huge fan of Spurs, they have had an incredible year. But there is no point in talking good business and bad business when you are doing no business.

No money, no honey I am afraid.

I mean seriously 'we were sniffing at the 10-15m mark which I felt was too much for an unproven player'. I am sure that is football talk but it is <deleted>. Like anyone cares. You have just got spunked on by City who spent 150m on god knows what and have crawled in front of you. You can 'sniff' as much as you like or complain about 'prices' but at the end of the day you buy or you dont. And simply standing on the sidelines hoping valuations come down to a level that represents reasonable value isnt going to get you anywhere.

Spurs wanted Carroll, Liverpool got him. I dont know how much Liverpool are going to spend to get near the top. I am 100% confident that Spurs are not going to spend enough. If you truly believe that Spurs were well advised to avoid the outrageous valuations in the January window and that Liverpool were badly legged over then so be it.

As you say, Tottenham are as tight as two coats of paint. And that basically means they come last.... I know people wish to believe otherwise. That Man City actually understand football. But the reality is that it is a super heroic effort by Man City to spend so much and be so bad. And it is totally beyond me how a spurs supporter wishes to give 'value' lectures to Liverpool just because we paid a mere 10m more to get a striker that you actually wanted.

I really wouldnt care if you guys who claim to understand football would just admit that it is all about money when you know it is really. And stop pretending that Sheik Mansour understands the game, and stop calling it a 'beautiful game' and asking for Abromavich to get a knighthood. Because I know it is total <deleted> and so do you guys.

And really at least take the moral high ground as a Tottenham supporter.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Abrak

[Abrak]

would jockstar or mrbojangles mind deleting that reference to the s*n website out of the liverpool thread please? fuc_king offensive that is.

and abrak, thought you'd know better mate.

Sorry if I offended. I was really taking the piss out of the 'world's greatest tabloid press'.

I cant delete it now I am afraid.

[Abrak]

The reason I think Comolli and Dalglish will actually get on especially with acquisitions of players is because they are so very different. Comolli talks FSG and Dalgish probably thinks it is rubbish.

I doubt the two of them argue because they are on different planets. But Comolli can relate to FSG and I am sure that Dalglish cannot.

I just dont see them having a discussion along these lines.

http://www.footylatest.com/liverpool-definitely-going-for-blaise-matuidi/21947

[JacknDanny]

. You have just got spunked on by City who spent 150m on god knows what and have crawled in front of you.

But the reality is that it is a super heroic effort by Man City to spend so much and be so bad.

You know Abrak, I dont want to gatecrash your Liverpool/sabremetric forum, but you seem to have a giant hard on about Man City, and I cant allow your sh!te to carry on without response.

City, like all teams ,have made 'dodgy' transfers. Tevez/ Silva/Yaya Toure are 3 players that make up much of that 150 mill that you are talking about as 'god knows what'!!! Any team would love to have those 3 in their team.

As for being so bad....... you really are a nob!!

4th in the league ( which was always the target) with a realistic chance of 3rd. Final of the FA cup with a chance to win a trophy for the first time in ## years.

And at times playing fantastic football.

As a City fan I am more than happy

[Abrak]

You know Abrak, I dont want to gatecrash your Liverpool/sabremetric forum, but you seem to have a giant hard on about Man City, and I cant allow your sh!te to carry on without response.

City, like all teams ,have made 'dodgy' transfers. Tevez/ Silva/Yaya Toure are 3 players that make up much of that 150 mill that you are talking about as 'god knows what'!!! Any team would love to have those 3 in their team.

As for being so bad....... you really are a nob!!

4th in the league ( which was always the target) with a realistic chance of 3rd. Final of the FA cup with a chance to win a trophy for the first time in ## years.

And at times playing fantastic football.

As a City fan I am more than happy

Fair enough, I have been called worse.

But football is supposed to be a game of sorts.

If you go back a page you will see though that it is the first time in recent history that the team with the highest wage roll has come as low as 4th. As a statistician I like my tables to be neat and orderly and major outliers like Man City dont look pretty.

The way I look at it though football is supposed to be a game of sorts. But the way it seems to have worked is this. Last year Spurs beat you to the CL in the final game. This year you spent 150m on your team. Spurs were handicapped by 12 additional CL games. And you guys WIN!!

And when I said you were bad, I meant I thought you were bad at buying your way to the top of the table. I will genuinely respect Man City when they build a 75,000 seat stadium and charge 15 quid entrance.

(As a side note. The point that as a City fan you are happy is a good one. City never win anything, Mansour bought for a few shekels and then threw a lot of money at it. He is an instant hero in any case.

Spare a thought for LFC's new owners. For a start they had to pay 300m for the club. Then they are obligated to throw money at it because we belong in the CL. And if one day we win the premiership, FSG will just have been incredibly lucky and honored to buy LFC when it was cheap.)

Edited April 29, 2011 by Abrak

[carmine]

yes, 17m on david bentley three years ago now looks like a proper steal carmine.

carroll was never going to go for less than 30m. newcastle didn't want to sell, we were flush with money from the torres sale. the fee we paid for carroll doesn't really bother me in the slightest. over-priced? sure. most players are. but if you want/need someone badly enough then you pay it. it was january, there's the english tax etc. ho hum.

Who says he'd never go for less than 30m....apart from Liverpool fans that is. But if you want to use the Bentley transfer as some form of justification than so be it.

The only half sensible justification was that you recieved 50m for Torres, so you sold in excess and bought in excess.

This arguement that the owners paid it because "they can" and make a mission statement is a laughable load of <deleted>.

[Abrak]

This arguement that the owners paid it because "they can" and make a mission statement is a laughable load of <deleted>.

No you are slightly missing the point. The reason that LFC supporters are very relaxed about the luxury 35m Carroll purchase is very simple.

We desperately need to strengthen the back line as well as reinforce the midfield. We have no wingers whatsoever. So clearly if our owners can afford to spend 35m on a young up and coming english centre forward, this clearly indicates they have a considerable budget to rebuild the team.

If they have spunked 50% of the summer budget on Carroll we will be pissed off.

Anyways sounds to me that Spurs is going to keep things tight and back off from the CL battle.

[carmine]

This arguement that the owners paid it because "they can" and make a mission statement is a laughable load of <deleted>.

No you are slightly missing the point. The reason that LFC supporters are very relaxed about the luxury 35m Carroll purchase is very simple.

We desperately need to strengthen the back line as well as reinforce the midfield. We have no wingers whatsoever. So clearly if our owners can afford to spend 35m on a young up and coming english centre forward, this clearly indicates they have a considerable budget to rebuild the team.

If they have spunked 50% of the summer budget on Carroll we will be pissed off.

Anyways sounds to me that Spurs is going to keep things tight and back off from the CL battle.

To be honest we were just keeping our hopes up trying to be positive. The failure to buy a top striker in January was always going to make it an uphill battle. Its not over yet but i doubt somehow i'll be saying that come monday. If we do qualify Mancini and his squad should hold their heads in shame.

Bet that gets a response.

Edited April 29, 2011 by carmine

[smokie36]

This arguement that the owners paid it because "they can" and make a mission statement is a laughable load of <deleted>.

No you are slightly missing the point. The reason that LFC supporters are very relaxed about the luxury 35m Carroll purchase is very simple.

We desperately need to strengthen the back line as well as reinforce the midfield. We have no wingers whatsoever. So clearly if our owners can afford to spend 35m on a young up and coming english centre forward, this clearly indicates they have a considerable budget to rebuild the team.

If they have spunked 50% of the summer budget on Carroll we will be pissed off.

Anyways sounds to me that Spurs is going to keep things tight and back off from the CL battle.

Dalglish made a fery shrewd move there and no doubt the board saw the value in two younger players for one injury prone with the added bonus of spreading the investment therefore leaving it somewhat safer.

There won't be any £30m players arribing at the Lane in the summer....and now you sold your prime asset none will be arriving at Anfield either. Nor will CL football.

[Abrak]

To be honest we were just keeping our hopes up trying to be positive. The failure to buy a top striker in January was always going to make it an uphill battle. Its not over yet but i doubt somehow i'll be saying that come monday. If we do qualify Mancini and his squad should hold their heads in shame.

Bet that gets a response.

And the moral of this unfortunate tale is this.

For all the lectures on how silly it was to overpay for players, he totally forgot that the one thing even worse was not to pay for any players at all....

Ho Hum....

[carmine]

To be honest we were just keeping our hopes up trying to be positive. The failure to buy a top striker in January was always going to make it an uphill battle. Its not over yet but i doubt somehow i'll be saying that come monday. If we do qualify Mancini and his squad should hold their heads in shame.

Bet that gets a response.

And the moral of this unfortunate tale is this.

For all the lectures on how silly it was to overpay for players, he totally forgot that the one thing even worse was not to pay for any players at all....

Ho Hum....

Who's lecturing? There's no moral either. Its quite simple. You paid about 20m too much for a young, might be good in the future player because you got a shed load for Torres. Fair enough.

I don't think that Andy Carroll is very much better than what we already have to be frank, However ther were other top strikers that we could have bought and did'nt.

Forget morals, lectures sabermetrics....stop over complicating the obvious. At the end of the day carroll might turn out to be the new Van Basten, then it was a good buy. Or he could turn out to be injury prone underachiever in which case it was'nt. Theres definately more Joey Barton than Van Basten i think.

[Abrak]

To be honest we were just keeping our hopes up trying to be positive. The failure to buy a top striker in January was always going to make it an uphill battle. Its not over yet but i doubt somehow i'll be saying that come monday. If we do qualify Mancini and his squad should hold their heads in shame.

Bet that gets a response.

And the moral of this unfortunate tale is this.

For all the lectures on how silly it was to overpay for players, he totally forgot that the one thing even worse was not to pay for any players at all....

Ho Hum....

Who's lecturing? There's no moral either. Its quite simple. You paid about 20m too much for a young, might be good in the future player because you got a shed load for Torres. Fair enough.

I don't think that Andy Carroll is very much better than what we already have to be frank, However ther were other top strikers that we could have bought and did'nt.

Forget morals, lectures sabermetrics....stop over complicating the obvious. At the end of the day carroll might turn out to be the new Van Basten, then it was a good buy. Or he could turn out to be injury prone underachiever in which case it was'nt. Theres definately more Joey Barton than Van Basten i think.

I am joking Carmine. At the end of the day you got beat by Man City who are just going to go and buy the best players until they win. I doubt they even count the cost.

But my point was along the lines. At the end of the day we have Carroll. And you got noone.

[Abrak]

Quite a nice little article showing all the links between Sabermetrics, Moneyball, Billy Beane (Oakland), Commolli, Henry etc.

http://www.epltalk.com/what-the-henry-beane-comolli-connection-means-for-roy-hodgson-26290

The important point is that Comolli has been well entrenched in this stuff with Henry (through Billy Beane) for a long time. You can see that they basically talk the same language.

[lannarebirth]

Is this a football thread or a finance thread? Why the fuc_k would anyone care what an entertainer makes? Does it enhance your enjoyment of the sport? Do you enjoy concerts more if you can discuss what Pavoratti or Bono or whomever got paid to perform? Jesus!

edit: Sorry about the rant but i just hate that stuff. Mainly why I focus on amateur sports now, which are becoming corrupted as well. Carry on.

Edited April 29, 2011 by lannarebirth

[carmine]

Quite a nice little article showing all the links between Sabermetrics, Moneyball, Billy Beane (Oakland), Commolli, Henry etc.

http://www.epltalk.c...y-hodgson-26290

The important point is that Comolli has been well entrenched in this stuff with Henry (through Billy Beane) for a long time. You can see that they basically talk the same language.

Singheeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!

You are taking the piss arn't you????????????? <deleted>#$ing unbelievable!!!! I love this thread.................Wheres singhers book btw?

Edited April 30, 2011 by carmine

[mrbojangles]

would jockstar or mrbojangles mind deleting that reference to the s*n website out of the liverpool thread please? fuc_king offensive that is.

and abrak, thought you'd know better mate.

would jockstar or mrbojangles mind deleting that reference to the s*n website out of the liverpool thread please? fuc_king offensive that is.

and abrak, thought you'd know better mate.

Sorry if I offended. I was really taking the piss out of the 'world's greatest tabloid press'.

I cant delete it now I am afraid.

If you are both happy, I have removed the link.

[mrbojangles]

As a statistician I like my tables to be neat and orderly and major outliers like Man City dont look pretty.

I'll tell you what Abrak. Just for fun next week, have a go at the prediction comp. We'll give you a week to work and play with your stats and lets see how that gets on with real life and what the results will actually be.

If you get a good score we might take your stats a little more seriously. Are you up for the challenge ?

[carmine]

As a statistician I like my tables to be neat and orderly and major outliers like Man City dont look pretty.

I'll tell you what Abrak. Just for fun next week, have a go at the prediction comp. We'll give you a week to work and play with your stats and lets see how that gets on with real life and what the results will actually be.

If you get a good score we might take your stats a little more seriously. Are you up for the challenge ?

Stop encouraging him.

[smokie36]

As a statistician I like my tables to be neat and orderly and major outliers like Man City dont look pretty.

I'll tell you what Abrak. Just for fun next week, have a go at the prediction comp. We'll give you a week to work and play with your stats and lets see how that gets on with real life and what the results will actually be.

If you get a good score we might take your stats a little more seriously. Are you up for the challenge ?

Stop encouraging him.

Shhhh carmine. This could be amusing although no doubt he should be given at least three seasons worth of predicting as statistical analysis shows........................................zzzzzzzzzz

[Abrak]

As a statistician I like my tables to be neat and orderly and major outliers like Man City dont look pretty.

I'll tell you what Abrak. Just for fun next week, have a go at the prediction comp. We'll give you a week to work and play with your stats and lets see how that gets on with real life and what the results will actually be.

If you get a good score we might take your stats a little more seriously. Are you up for the challenge ?

Honestly Carmine this is silly.

We now have so called 'knowledge' and 'statistics'.

'Knowledge' is derived from 'experience' and used to make 'judgments'.

'Statistics' are 'analysed' and used to make 'judgments'.

Traditionally sport has been managed through 'knowledge' and many years of 'experience'. What happened in baseball though was that they found that if they employed a geek with a calculator statistics were very useful. In other words many of the rules that perhaps had applied when players cost 200k no longer held true when they cost 20m. But managers had based their 'knowledge' on their past 'experience'.

Forgetting the underlying logic. There is a very good rule in business. When you start dealing with large sums of money, it is handy to have someone with a calculator with you. You need both 'knowledge' and 'analysis'. So what happened in baseball is that at the end of the day every team employed someone with a calculator.

The stats do not predict the future they avoid bad decisions and reinforce good ones.

The stats show that constantly changing managers is non-productive but teams still constantly change their managers.

How much analysis went into the purchase of Torres? Afterall werent Chelsea looking for a striker to replace their misfiring strikers to boost their CL chances? So the chose a misfiring striker who had scored at half the rate in the current season as the past 3? Who arrived at Chelsea short of pace from his previous injuries? But did Abromavich care? It was only 50m?

But for FSG it was a 50m asset? So it is not surprising they have a geek with a calculator who knows? whether Torres was short of pace? whether his poor scoring was due to poor service? what are the recover rates from groin injuries? the age at which a striker whose performance is based on pace value peaks? ETC?

And if you dont believe in detailed statistical analysis, so be it.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Abrak

[smokie36]

Come on Abrak....go to the Predictions Thread and tell us what's going to happen this weekend....if you do well you can PM me next week's scores!

[Abrak]

I'll tell you what Abrak. Just for fun next week, have a go at the prediction comp. We'll give you a week to work and play with your stats and lets see how that gets on with real life and what the results will actually be.

If you get a good score we might take your stats a little more seriously. Are you up for the challenge ?

Ok. I will take you on.

But what I would like to know first is what exactly 'football knowledge' is from anyone?

[mrbojangles]

I'll tell you what Abrak. Just for fun next week, have a go at the prediction comp. We'll give you a week to work and play with your stats and lets see how that gets on with real life and what the results will actually be.

If you get a good score we might take your stats a little more seriously. Are you up for the challenge ?

Ok. I will take you on.

Should be interesting.

But what I would like to know first is what exactly 'football knowledge' is from anyone?

In this instance I would consider the following 2 definitions of knowledge to be apt. Just put football in them:-

2. Familiarity, awareness, or understanding gained through experience or study.

3. The sum or range of what has been perceived, discovered, or learned.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/knowledge

[Abrak]

Ok it is a silly game really.

I do know the difference between knowledge basis judgments and statistical anaylslysis. You cant use stats to pick a team, decide formations judge whether Carroll will end up in jail or gel with Suarez. You do use the them to aid in your decision making process and it would be unwise to jump to any conclusions without all the data. Detailed statistical analysis is part of the decision making process. It is simply strange they arent already. They will never run the teams and they shouldnt really talk the press.

Obviously LFC is not short of soccer knowledge. In fact I am totally happy to defer to Kenny. So if you ask me whether Poulsen is good enough I would say no or Kenny would have picked him.

So just because someone has knowledge it doesnt mean that knowledge is correct. In fact it is fundamental to Henry's investment philosophy that 'conventional wisdom' is often wrong. So lets start with the fact that I can guarantee that FSG would never have sanctioned any one of Cole's, Poulsen's or Konchesky's signings over that length of time at that age. It was a shocking destruction of value and a complete and utter waste of money. 35 year's of experience and he has learnt absolutely nothing. If anyone can justify those signings I would like to know how.

[carmine]

Ok it is a silly game really.

I do know the difference between knowledge basis judgments and statistical anaylslysis. You cant use stats to pick a team, decide formations judge whether Carroll will end up in jail or gel with Suarez. You do use the them to aid in your decision making process and it would be unwise to jump to any conclusions without all the data. Detailed statistical analysis is part of the decision making process. It is simply strange they arent already. They will never run the teams and they shouldnt really talk the press.

Obviously LFC is not short of soccer knowledge. In fact I am totally happy to defer to Kenny. So if you ask me whether Poulsen is good enough I would say no or Kenny would have picked him.

So just because someone has knowledge it doesnt mean that knowledge is correct. In fact it is fundamental to Henry's investment philosophy that 'conventional wisdom' is often wrong. So lets start with the fact that I can guarantee that FSG would never have sanctioned any one of Cole's, Poulsen's or Konchesky's signings over that length of time at that age. It was a shocking destruction of value and a complete and utter waste of money. 35 year's of experience and he has learnt absolutely nothing. If anyone can justify those signings I would like to know how.

Thats a post that makes a lot more sense to me.

[longstebe]

Great call by the linesman at the bridge yesterday.