A Quote Or Is The Builder Taking The Mick

[Morakot]

I would like to hear your option about this. I asked a skilled builder for a quote for the following mini project.

1. Brickwork: building a small structure, less than 1m high, about 0.25m³; rendering structure about 1.5m²
2. Removing a strip of old concrete floor outdoors: about 2m² and 2cm tick, partially hollow underneath due to sunk ground; compacting ground, filling and levelling with sand 0.25m³; adding concrete 2m² about 5cm high, creating level surface with slope for rain water draining (limited access and work space 0.5m between two buildings)
3. Attaching a vertical rainwater pipe to roof gutter about 4m length (limited access and work space 0.5m between two buildings)

The premise is about 10mins drive away from the builder's house and about 20mins from building supply yards, Bangkok area. I was given the following quote

Two days work and a total cost estimate (including materials) for each part:

1. B 1500
2. B 8000
3. B 1200

I strikes me as rather overpriced. I would like to hear what other people think would be reasonable price.

[shaggy1969]

I think your builder is on a good earner,sounds to me that over 50% from the costs are labor charges.

Did your builder quote the material costs and labor costs separately?if so what were they.

If I was you I would get another quote from another builder,I am pretty sure you find a fairer price.

[Morakot]

Thanks Shaggy! That's about what I thought. I estimated the man/hours about 8-10hours in total. When ask I asked him why two days work, he replied the concrete might not be set in a day so he needs to come back the next day...

There was no break down for the material costs and labour costs. But I generously estimated for part I material and transport cost about B400-500, with 2-3 hours work (including getting the materials). How this could be than a remaining B1000-1100 for labour is not clear to me.

[shaggy1969]

It might be worth your while going to the building suppliers yourself and ask the for a quote on the materials you need.

Whilst you are there you could ask them if they could recommend some good builders to do the job for you.....make sure that you state it is only a small job.

I would also estimate the work the same as you (8-10 hours),8 hours for the bulk of the work and the other 2 hours the next day to do the rendering.I would wait for the wall to dry before rendering it.

N.B finding a good builder can be very hit and miss,that is why I said to you about getting one recommended by the building suppliers.

The wall in the photo below was made by a so called builder whilst I was overseas and needless to say it was ripped down and started anew.

Chokdee

Shaggy

[innerspace]

I really dont know building but as a general outside observation...11000 or so baht...with 50% materials...5500 for 2 days labour.

If a skilled worker as you said then I would think it could be good. Quality costs.

Ripping it down and buying fresh materials also costs (how much did the previous posters wonky wall cost?)

But if 'has skills' but not "really" skilled, you can get a semi competant worker for 500B a day and worse for less.

All boils down to how good the builder is. Do you have references? If so what did they pay per day?

[itchybum]

It does look a little high, especially the middle one.

[Morakot]

you can get a semi competant worker for 500B a day and worse for less.

I am happy to pay B1000+ for a days work for a competent worker, but the above quote works out more than B5000 per day.

[Ackybang]

Alright Morakot - work it out for materials, and take it from there.

Overcompensating for material pricewise and quantity, figure 1 baht a (red) brick - around 90 per square meter.

1 bag Portland - 100 baht.

2 bag tiger super plus - 90 baht each.

Sand / stone @ half a cu each - approx 450 baht.

Water.

3mm steel gridwork (mesh) 15x15cm (overkill) - 2 square meters = 200 baht (?).

4" Pipe pvc / zinc (?) - 4 meters - not too much, depending on grade. Couple of clips, rawlplugs + screws.

In the nearest city to here - average price bricklaying / rendering = 60 baht per square meter - but he won't be paying his guys by the meter..

Daily rates for 'grunts' (people who'll actually be doing the work) : 300 - 400 baht per day per person, depending on experience / collection of tools. Women still usually on 200-250 baht per day.

For a job that small, I'd be surprised if he had anymore than 2 people on it - not really a 'full' days work, also.

Work out how much profit he's aiming at for one and a bit days work. Get two more quotes.

Good luck.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Ackybang

[shaggy1969]

I really dont know building but as a general outside observation...11000 or so baht...with 50% materials...5500 for 2 days labour.

If a skilled worker as you said then I would think it could be good. Quality costs.

Ripping it down and buying fresh materials also costs (how much did the previous posters wonky wall cost?)

But if 'has skills' but not "really" skilled, you can get a semi competant worker for 500B a day and worse for less.

All boils down to how good the builder is. Do you have references? If so what did they pay per day?

how much did the previous posters wonky wall cost?

I reckon we were around 8,000 baht down (price old bricks/new bricks/cement/labour) from repairing two sections of the wall.

The new guy we got to finish the work (friend of the family and our original choice) has done a great job repairing the original walls.

We also got him to render all the new walls +/- 30 mtrs,tile the front of the home,make a roof over the front yard and panel it inside and out.

All in for 42,000 baht which will be rounded off to 45,000 when he is finished as we are happy with his work.

Repaired wall

A small portion of the un worked panels.

Roof and outside panelling

The guy(and his worker) have still got about a weeks work before they are finished.

but it just goes to show that quality doesnt always have to come at a price.

[Pacificperson]

It looks to me as if you contractor does not want to do number 2. Or, he is worried that it will turn into a bigger job than it appears to be. Breaking 4m of concrete in a 0.5m wide space is gonna be tough, especially if if turns out to be thicker than 2 cm. The same goes with filling and compacting the area. Good luck in finding someone to take on the job.

[innerspace]

how much did the previous posters wonky wall cost?

I reckon we were around 8,000 baht down.....

but it just goes to show that quality doesnt always have to come at a price.

And shows that poor quality has a higher price than good quality.

The latest materials estimate put things on a different level to what was suggested before.

Simple thing here is get all the facts.

2 or 3 builders shops will tell you what the materials cost...its always advised to buy materials yourself rather than let builders up the price.

Then pay labour based on experience, reliabilty, trust and expextations. If you want good pay good, but dont pay stupid or you will look stupid!

Someones point of being scared of task 2 could be valid... I often increase (non building) prices when tasks are bigger or more unclear than anticipated.

[thaibeachlovers]

Thanks Shaggy! That's about what I thought. I estimated the man/hours about 8-10hours in total. When ask I asked him why two days work, he replied the concrete might not be set in a day so he needs to come back the next day...

There was no break down for the material costs and labour costs. But I generously estimated for part I material and transport cost about B400-500, with 2-3 hours work (including getting the materials). How this could be than a remaining B1000-1100 for labour is not clear to me.

I think your hours estimation is way too low.

If he is a good builder ( have you seen previous work by him? ) he is probably worth it. Thai builders/ welders/ electricians for small jobs are notoriously bad. I do all my building/ electrical myself and hope to be buying a welder soon, as it irks me to pay for rubbish work.

[bankruatsteve]

The OP said "skilled builder". When you find somebody in Thailand that is skilled, you can maybe negotiate with some logic, but "skilled" is not that easy to find. Ask if he can give a discount, or just take it and be happy that you get a good job.

[Morakot]

Thanks Shaggy! That's about what I thought. I estimated the man/hours about 8-10hours in total. When ask I asked him why two days work, he replied the concrete might not be set in a day so he needs to come back the next day...

There was no break down for the material costs and labour costs. But I generously estimated for part I material and transport cost about B400-500, with 2-3 hours work (including getting the materials). How this could be than a remaining B1000-1100 for labour is not clear to me.

I think your hours estimation is way too low.

If he is a good builder ( have you seen previous work by him? ) he is probably worth it. Thai builders/ welders/ electricians for small jobs are notoriously bad. I do all my building/ electrical myself and hope to be buying a welder soon, as it irks me to pay for rubbish work.

He has done work for me before, resizing a metal gate and welding it to a post. It was well done; he managed to do this single-handed, making it fit neatly. I've also seen him installing windows in someone's house. He mentioned that he can do masonry work too. I am sometime sceptical about people who claim they can do everything. He conveyed that he would do the work himself.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Morakot

[thaibeachlovers]

Thanks Shaggy! That's about what I thought. I estimated the man/hours about 8-10hours in total. When ask I asked him why two days work, he replied the concrete might not be set in a day so he needs to come back the next day...

There was no break down for the material costs and labour costs. But I generously estimated for part I material and transport cost about B400-500, with 2-3 hours work (including getting the materials). How this could be than a remaining B1000-1100 for labour is not clear to me.

I think your hours estimation is way too low.

If he is a good builder ( have you seen previous work by him? ) he is probably worth it. Thai builders/ welders/ electricians for small jobs are notoriously bad. I do all my building/ electrical myself and hope to be buying a welder soon, as it irks me to pay for rubbish work.

He has done work for me before, resizing a metal gate and welding it to a post. It was well done; he managed to do this single-handed, making it fit neatly. I've also seen him installing windows in someone's house. He mentioned that he can do masonry work too. I am sometime sceptical about people who claim they can do everything. He conveyed that he would do the work himself.

Why sceptical? I can do just about anything to do with a house, and I'm just a DIY. An experienced professional should be able to do everything.

The problem with the "modern world" is that tradesmen tend to specialise too much now.

[mrbojangles]

Thanks Shaggy! That's about what I thought. I estimated the man/hours about 8-10hours in total. When ask I asked him why two days work, he replied the concrete might not be set in a day so he needs to come back the next day...

There was no break down for the material costs and labour costs. But I generously estimated for part I material and transport cost about B400-500, with 2-3 hours work (including getting the materials). How this could be than a remaining B1000-1100 for labour is not clear to me.

I think your hours estimation is way too low.

If he is a good builder ( have you seen previous work by him? ) he is probably worth it. Thai builders/ welders/ electricians for small jobs are notoriously bad. I do all my building/ electrical myself and hope to be buying a welder soon, as it irks me to pay for rubbish work.

He has done work for me before, resizing a metal gate and welding it to a post. It was well done; he managed to do this single-handed, making it fit neatly. I've also seen him installing windows in someone's house. He mentioned that he can do masonry work too. I am sometime sceptical about people who claim they can do everything. He conveyed that he would do the work himself.

Why sceptical? I can do just about anything to do with a house, and I'm just a DIY. An experienced professional should be able to do everything.

The problem with the "modern world" is that tradesmen tend to specialise too much now.

I agree. If you are good with your hands you should be able to turn your hand to most (not all) things. In the UK I have renovated houses for over 25 years and picked up knowledge along the way, about all sorts of trades. When I first started and mainly due to lack of funds, if I didn't know how to do it, I would get a book. Yes, it would take longer but I did it. I must admit, I never fully got the hang of plastering full walls though and decided early on that this would be a "bought in" task.

The BiL's who have just built our house in the boonies have also picked up stuff as they have been building ours. They are what I would call skilled and even if they haven't done a task before, they see it done once and in the majority of cases can do it themselves next time (specialist tools permitting). I also like their honesty, in that if they can't do something they tell me they can't. Instead of trying to do it and then making a right pig's ear of it. Doing the electric's is one example where he said he couldn't do it and to get someone in.

[Morakot]

Yes, of course one can do everything. My worry is more about cost effectiveness. I've done numerous different DIY projects, but it tends to be very slow. If you specialise in one thing you tend to be very fast. That's all I was sceptical about.

[mrbojangles]

Yes, of course one can do everything. My worry is more about cost effectiveness. I've done numerous different DIY projects, but it tends to be very slow. If you specialise in one thing you tend to be very fast. That's all I was sceptical about.

Fair comment and a point I raised above.

[IMHO]

A good contractor gets 400-600 baht/day upcountry, and maybe 600-800/day in BKK.

A good labourer gets 150-250 Baht/day upcountry, and 300B/day in BKK.

Do your own math from there

[bankruatsteve]

A good contractor gets 400-600 baht/day upcountry, and maybe 600-800/day in BKK.

A good labourer gets 150-250 Baht/day upcountry, and 300B/day in BKK.

Do your own math from there

Not sure what you mean by "good contractor" but will disagree on that anyway... In my experience, a "good contractor" will make a contract for the job and what he pays his labor will not be known to you - but most certainly will be a LOT for him - and a lot more than 600 B/day. I can affirm the labor cost for upcountry, but think it's a bit higher that in BKK these days.

[mrbojangles]

Upcountry I give 300 baht per day. I increased it from 250 baht last October and they are more than happy with it. Although if I upped it to 600 I'm sure they'd be evenmore happier

[IMHO]

A good contractor gets 400-600 baht/day upcountry, and maybe 600-800/day in BKK.

A good labourer gets 150-250 Baht/day upcountry, and 300B/day in BKK.

Do your own math from there

Not sure what you mean by "good contractor" but will disagree on that anyway... In my experience, a "good contractor" will make a contract for the job and what he pays his labor will not be known to you - but most certainly will be a LOT for him - and a lot more than 600 B/day. I can affirm the labor cost for upcountry, but think it's a bit higher that in BKK these days.

Sorry used wrong word, Contactor = Foreman.

My family are property developers. Take that as you will

[Morakot]

Thanks for clarifying this!

[doglover]

I really dont know building but as a general outside observation...11000 or so baht...with 50% materials...5500 for 2 days labour.

If a skilled worker as you said then I would think it could be good. Quality costs.

Ripping it down and buying fresh materials also costs (how much did the previous posters wonky wall cost?)

But if 'has skills' but not "really" skilled, you can get a semi competant worker for 500B a day and worse for less.

All boils down to how good the builder is. Do you have references? If so what did they pay per day?

how much did the previous posters wonky wall cost?

I reckon we were around 8,000 baht down (price old bricks/new bricks/cement/labour) from repairing two sections of the wall.

The new guy we got to finish the work (friend of the family and our original choice) has done a great job repairing the original walls.

We also got him to render all the new walls +/- 30 mtrs,tile the front of the home,make a roof over the front yard and panel it inside and out.

All in for 42,000 baht which will be rounded off to 45,000 when he is finished as we are happy with his work.

Repaired wall

1.JPG

A small portion of the un worked panels.

2.JPG

Roof and outside panelling

3.jpg

The guy(and his worker) have still got about a weeks work before they are finished.

but it just goes to show that quality doesnt always have to come at a price.

Nice workmanship there. Also good to see a farang keeping the village the way it is meant to be. It took me awhile to realize that there is brilliance in simplicity.

[shaggy1969]

So how did you get on Morakot?

Did you get the job done?

Was it with the original builder or did you try a different one?

[a99az]

The old adage goes something like "if you want something done properly, do it yourself" saves stress and cost.