Any Visa Entitlements From Having My Name In Family Book Or On A Title Deed?

[avander]

I have a series of questions surrounding visas, work permits and property ownership generally and specifically in relation to my wife adding my name to the "blue (family) book".

I am interested if there are any entitlements in having my name in the "Blue" book as following our marriage over 2 years ago my Thai national wife changed her surname to mine and on our last visit to Thailand added my name to the "Family Blue book". I am over 55 and we are soon moving to Thailand where my wife has a property and will open a business.

I have been recommended to get an Immigrant "o" visa.

Apart from us being married (doh!), does having my name in the family book make it any easier or make any difference to my ability to:

a) get a visa,

get a work permit

or

c) assist by making it easier for visa reporting requirements and the declaration of monthly or annual "money in the bank". Also regarding this, do the income or funds need to be in a Thai bank or can they be in a foreign bank account?

Lastly, does my name being in the family book, and the fact that when we recently purchased a property (not a condo / in her name of course) with me being a signatory to the purchase on the official "deed" at the local Ampur make any difference to the "ownership" situation or my wife's ability to sell the property without my consent?

[lopburi3]

If you are a foreigner your name should not be in blue book but only in a special yellow book (if you want) - if placed in blue book it would appear to be a District Office mistake. As for help for visa/work it makes no difference but can be helpful when need proof of residence - you get a non-immigrant O visa on basis of marriage with marriage certificate and perhaps wife ID card copy/passport copy and her blue book copy.

Money must be in your account in a Thai bank for the required 2 months each year prior to extension of stay (if using marriage extension) or 3 months (retirement - after the first time being 2 months).

You would have signed paperwork that money belonged to your wife only so would only be yours in case of inheritance (and have to be sold) AFAIK.

[Mario2008]

Per above.

What a household registration book does is identifying who is the house owner and who are registered at that address. It is proof of address and might make it easier to open a bank account. For your visa or WP situation it makes no difference, although it is handy if you would like to apply for Thai nationality without going through permanent residency first, but only if you work in Thailand and pay taxes.

[Arkady]

You didn't sign for the purchase of land on the title deed. You signed a piece of paper saying that your wife used her money to purchase the land and that you have claim over it. That means you have no claim over the property in the event of divorce and naturally your signature is not required for her to sell her own property. Her relatives will also have legitimate claims over the property under Thailand's weird French style inheritance laws, if she predeceases you, particularly if she is intestate. Best to ensure she makes a will specifying the property passes to you and you will be given 6 months to sell it up.

As Lopburi says, the district office must have made a mistake in entering you in a blue book (TR14) because the Civil Registration Act only permits these for Thai citizens and permanent residents of Thailand. Many district officers are amazingly clueless about regulations to do with foreigners. However, once the mistake has been made the district office is unlikely to correct it. It is certainly no advantage in getting a WP. Even having PR no longer cuts much ice with the Labour Ministry in that respect. It is useful as proof of address for applying for a Thai driving licence and one or two other purposes but no big deal. You will need a tabien baan, if you apply for Thai citizenship but you also need a WP and 3 years' notarised tax receipts of salaries tax paid on a job in Thailand. Having a tabien baan for 5 years gets you 5 points - 50 out of 100 needed to apply for citizenship.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Arkady

[Mekong Bob]

You didn't sign for the purchase of land on the title deed. You signed a piece of paper saying that your wife used her money to purchase the land and that you have claim over it. That means you have no claim over the property in the event of divorce and naturally your signature is not required for her to sell her own property. Her relatives will also have legitimate claims over the property under Thailand's weird French style inheritance laws, if she predeceases you, particularly if she is intestate. Best to ensure she makes a will specifying the property passes to you and you will be given 6 months to sell it up.

As Lopburi says, the district office must have made a mistake in entering you in a blue book (TR14) because the Civil Registration Act only permits these for Thai citizens and permanent residents of Thailand. Many district officers are amazingly clueless about regulations to do with foreigners. However, once the mistake has been made the district office is unlikely to correct it. It is certainly no advantage in getting a WP. Even having PR no longer cuts much ice with the Labour Ministry in that respect. It is useful as proof of address for applying for a Thai driving licence and one or two other purposes but no big deal. You will need a tabien baan, if you apply for Thai citizenship but you also need a WP and 3 years' notarised tax receipts of salaries tax paid on a job in Thailand. Having a tabien baan for 5 years gets you 5 points - 50 out of 100 needed to apply for citizenship.

How can a Thai citizen prepare a will which specifies that her Thai property be passed to her non-Thai husband?

I understood that non-Thai citizens cannot own property.

[Mario2008]

Property is a big term, a non-Thai cannot hold land but can for instance hold a house. A Non-Thai can inherit land also, but must sell it within 1 year.

Further it is possible to establish a usefruct on the land.

[Mekong Bob]

Property is a big term, a non-Thai cannot hold land but can for instance hold a house. A Non-Thai can inherit land also, but must sell it within 1 year.

Further it is possible to establish a usefruct on the land.

This is the first time I have ever heard that a non-Thai can inherit land in Thailand, but must sell it within a year. Interesting!

Mario2008, or others, can you please reference this Thai law or regulation for me? Thanks!

[TerryLH]

"I understood that non-Thai citizens cannot own property."

" Best to ensure she makes a will specifying the property passes to you and you will be given 6 months to sell it up."

Some foreigners get confused and think that they are listed as 'resident' in a blue book, when they are just being listed as the parent of their child who is listed in it.

[Mario2008]

As Arkady pointed out, the key in Thailand is to have a will as without a will the judge will decide how to divide the estate and who gets what.

@mekong bob: Can't help you with the specific regulation, maybe better ask in the real estate section where this comes up regularly, along with usefructs.

[avander]

Thanks very much everyone for the info. Really useful stuff, some of which confirms what I thought I had heard before and/or expected and some of which is new to me.

Arkady and others: Regarding a Last Will we both have Australian Wills which specify property both here (in Aust) and in Thailand but does this "transfer" to Thai law for the Thai property or do we need to make separate Wills that are specific to the Thai property? This would make sense to me and as I am an Australian citizen and my wife is a permanent resident here maybe we each have 2 Wills, one specifically for Australian property and and the other specifically for the Thai property?

I am completely naive about the international aspects of this and it must come up from time to time so I wonder if there is any reciprocity between Thai and Australian Law in these cases?

[Mario2008]

It is best to have two wills, one for property in Australia and one for property in Thailand. The reason for that is that if you have only 1 will, it must comply with the law of both countries. That can lead to some difficulty and could also be more expensive.

[ThaidDown]

Property is a big term, a non-Thai cannot hold land but can for instance hold a house. A Non-Thai can inherit land also, but must sell it within 1 year.

Further it is possible to establish a usefruct on the land.

This is the first time I have ever heard that a non-Thai can inherit land in Thailand, but must sell it within a year. Interesting!

Mario2008, or others, can you please reference this Thai law or regulation for me? Thanks!

Section 93 of the Land Code Act applies. For further explanation see the section 'Foreign Land Ownership by Succession' approx half way down this page http://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/inheritance-laws-thailand.html

[Mekong Bob]

Property is a big term, a non-Thai cannot hold land but can for instance hold a house. A Non-Thai can inherit land also, but must sell it within 1 year.

Further it is possible to establish a usefruct on the land.

This is the first time I have ever heard that a non-Thai can inherit land in Thailand, but must sell it within a year. Interesting!

Mario2008, or others, can you please reference this Thai law or regulation for me? Thanks!

Section 93 of the Land Code Act applies. For further explanation see the section 'Foreign Land Ownership by Succession' approx half way down this page http://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/inheritance-laws-thailand.html

Excellent. Thanks very much!

[ThaiTony2]

Property is a big term, a non-Thai cannot hold land but can for instance hold a house. A Non-Thai can inherit land also, but must sell it within 1 year.

Further it is possible to establish a usefruct on the land.

My understanding is that a non-Thai can inherit the land for the rest of their life but only for that generation and cannot be transferred or inherited by the next generation. But best to check with a real estate attorney

[Hotrats]

@avander, do you and your Thai wife have a child? If so, it could be, as TerryLH says above, that your name is in the Blue Book as the father of the child, but not as confirmation of your residence.

[Mario2008]

Property is a big term, a non-Thai cannot hold land but can for instance hold a house. A Non-Thai can inherit land also, but must sell it within 1 year.

Further it is possible to establish a usefruct on the land.

My understanding is that a non-Thai can inherit the land for the rest of their life but only for that generation and cannot be transferred or inherited by the next generation. But best to check with a real estate attorney

The correct answer, with link, was given two posts before yours. You have to sell it.

[avander]

My wife actually tried to explain to me about the usefruct before we purchased but the term was not used and I guess I was hung up on the "no thai,no land" statements so didn't really take it in. We have discussed this further based on the info all of you have provided and the process in the Land Office when we purchased and the usefruct is in place.

Still a good idea to sort out a Thai Will so will also pursue that when we move later this year.

Cheers everyone and thanks. I am sure others will find this thread of benefit now too!

[avander]

@avander, do you and your Thai wife have a child? If so, it could be, as TerryLH says above, that your name is in the Blue Book as the father of the child, but not as confirmation of your residence.

Hot,

No, we each have children but to previous marriages. BTW: I am not (yet) a resident either.

[avander]

Property is a big term, a non-Thai cannot hold land but can for instance hold a house. A Non-Thai can inherit land also, but must sell it within 1 year.

Further it is possible to establish a usefruct on the land.

My understanding is that a non-Thai can inherit the land for the rest of their life but only for that generation and cannot be transferred or inherited by the next generation. But best to check with a real estate attorney

The correct answer, with link, was given two posts before yours. You have to sell it.

HI Mario,

So, either she Wills it to me, in which case I have to sell within a year, OR a usefruct allows me residence and use for the rest of my life?

[Mario2008]

Yes. But better and more information in the real estate section.

[Briandajew]

If you are a foreigner your name should not be in blue book but only in a special yellow book (if you want) - if placed in blue book it would appear to be a District Office mistake. As for help for visa/work it makes no difference but can be helpful when need proof of residence - you get a non-immigrant O visa on basis of marriage with marriage certificate and perhaps wife ID card copy/passport copy and her blue book copy.

Money must be in your account in a Thai bank for the required 2 months each year prior to extension of stay (if using marriage extension) or 3 months (retirement - after the first time being 2 months).

You would have signed paperwork that money belonged to your wife only so would only be yours in case of inheritance (and have to be sold) AFAIK.

Your name will appear in the blue book if you are married to a Thai lady and you are named as the father of a child born in Thailand to your Thai wife. It will do nothing in the least to assist you in staying here. (I do believe it might help you with an opportunity to a work permit) Thailand is not exactly "Politically Correct" not a bad thing in general, it is better than being overrun with immigrants and foreigners. Sadly, it doesn't allow for assimilation or integration for foreign spouses.

[technologybytes]

"How can a Thai citizen prepare a will which specifies that her Thai property be passed to her non-Thai husband?

I understood that non-Thai citizens cannot own property."

Basically there are only 2 easy ways to own land land in Thailand as a foreigner . ( I say own, as opposed to "pay for")

1/ Buy a burial plot

2/ Inherit it from your wife

Disadvantages are that both require someone to die, and in the case of the latter you have to transfer the property within 12 months.. but you would get your name on the chanote between inheriting it and transferring ownership to a Thai.

Given the circumstances of these exceptions, do you think the Thai's are trying to tell us something ???

[Jingo]

"How can a Thai citizen prepare a will which specifies that her Thai property be passed to her non-Thai husband?

I understood that non-Thai citizens cannot own property."

Basically there are only 2 easy ways to own land land in Thailand as a foreigner . ( I say own, as opposed to "pay for")

1/ Buy a burial plot

2/ Inherit it from your wife

Disadvantages are that both require someone to die, and in the case of the latter you have to transfer the property within 12 months.. but you would get your name on the chanote between inheriting it and transferring ownership to a Thai.

Given the circumstances of these exceptions, do you think the Thai's are trying to tell us something ???

Become a thai citizen if you want to own land? Just kidding, I know you were fishing for the answer you wanted (Thais telling you to die instead of own land). But it's a good policy generally for a country to not let foreigners own land permanently, especially third-world countries. And MOST countries don't allow foreigners to permanently own land so this isn't some special situation.

Or do even foreigners who become Thai citizens not have the right to own permanently?

[dighambara]

Lopburi said "

If you are a foreigner your name should not be in blue book but only in a special yellow book (if you want) - if placed in blue book it would appear to be a District Office mistake. As for help for visa/work it makes no difference but can be helpful when need proof of residence - you get a non-immigrant O visa on basis of marriage with marriage certificate and perhaps wife ID card copy/passport copy and her blue book copy.

Money must be in your account in a Thai bank for the required 2 months each year prior to extension of stay (if using marriage extension) or 3 months (retirement - after the first time being 2 months).

You would have signed paperwork that money belonged to your wife only so would only be yours in case of inheritance (and have to be sold) AFAIK"

Many points:

When immigration sees that you hold a yellow book everything speeds up.

Stated income is the way to go, not money in the bank.

If you inherit land, you have one year from the day you acknowledge the inheritance (by signing). Folloing his wife's death, a friend went to the office, collected the papers to read at home, did not sign them and locked them away for 3 years, until he remarried.

[sexy man]

get your qife to get you a 30 yr lease on the property in your name. if done properly you name grtss on the chanook at the land office. if your wife dies her inheritors csmt take the house off you until the lease expires, thays what ive done and my lease expires when i'm 93 so in safe

Edited May 9, 2013 by lopburi3
Remove shout (bold)

[Arkady]

Property is a big term, a non-Thai cannot hold land but can for instance hold a house. A Non-Thai can inherit land also, but must sell it within 1 year.

Further it is possible to establish a usefruct on the land.

This is the first time I have ever heard that a non-Thai can inherit land in Thailand, but must sell it within a year. Interesting!

Mario2008, or others, can you please reference this Thai law or regulation for me? Thanks!

Section 93 of the Land Code Act applies. For further explanation see the section 'Foreign Land Ownership by Succession' approx half way down this page http://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/inheritance-laws-thailand.html

The procedure is actually that the land is never transferred to the foreigner but remains in the estate which is considered a Thai national entity. The estate sells the land and pays the proceeds to the foreign heir.

The Land Code also provides for a foreigner to to inherit land subject to the minister's permission but, if you read this provision carefully it refers to treaties with foreign countries that allow their nationals to own land subject to certain limits. Since all of these treaties have been cancelled, it can be assumed that this provision no longer applies.

The Thais were eager to renegotiate the US Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations in the late 60s because the previous treaty that it replaced provided for Americans to buy land in Thailand. The US was extremely important to Thailand in those days as it provided a huge chunk of the military and other budgets. Once the US treaty had been safely renegotiated in 1967 the treaties with other countries that Thailand no longer feared, like the UK and France, were simply cancelled by Thailand and all were gone by 1970. That's why only the US has a special treaty today. The government of the day rationalised that allowing foreign capitalists to continue to buy land would have encouraged more peasants to join the communists. Now their land is being bought up in large gulps by urban Thais of Chinese origin but never mind.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Arkady

[louse1953]

Australian will suffice,but maybe have it translated to Thai and then independently checked again.Ozzys lawyers have told me 2 wills will totally confuse the issue.Put it in 1 will.

Thanks very much everyone for the info. Really useful stuff, some of which confirms what I thought I had heard before and/or expected and some of which is new to me.

Arkady and others: Regarding a Last Will we both have Australian Wills which specify property both here (in Aust) and in Thailand but does this "transfer" to Thai law for the Thai property or do we need to make separate Wills that are specific to the Thai property? This would make sense to me and as I am an Australian citizen and my wife is a permanent resident here maybe we each have 2 Wills, one specifically for Australian property and and the other specifically for the Thai property?

I am completely naive about the international aspects of this and it must come up from time to time so I wonder if there is any reciprocity between Thai and Australian Law in these cases?

[louse1953]

I have been advised by an Australian lawyer versed in Thai law the exact opposite,but hey,thats law for you.quote name="Mario2008" post="6380562" timestamp="1367989090"]

It is best to have two wills, one for property in Australia and one for property in Thailand. The reason for that is that if you have only 1 will, it must comply with the law of both countries. That can lead to some difficulty and could also be more expensive.

[louse1953]

Within one year.

Property is a big term, a non-Thai cannot hold land but can for instance hold a house. A Non-Thai can inherit land also, but must sell it within 1 year.

Further it is possible to establish a usefruct on the land.

My understanding is that a non-Thai can inherit the land for the rest of their life but only for that generation and cannot be transferred or inherited by the next generation. But best to check with a real estate attorney

The correct answer, with link, was given two posts before yours. You have to sell it.

[louse1953]

Wonder if the Thais consider you are running over their country,and bringing your bad habits here.

If you are a foreigner your name should not be in blue book but only in a special yellow book (if you want) - if placed in blue book it would appear to be a District Office mistake. As for help for visa/work it makes no difference but can be helpful when need proof of residence - you get a non-immigrant O visa on basis of marriage with marriage certificate and perhaps wife ID card copy/passport copy and her blue book copy.

Money must be in your account in a Thai bank for the required 2 months each year prior to extension of stay (if using marriage extension) or 3 months (retirement - after the first time being 2 months).

You would have signed paperwork that money belonged to your wife only so would only be yours in case of inheritance (and have to be sold) AFAIK.

Your name will appear in the blue book if you are married to a Thai lady and you are named as the father of a child born in Thailand to your Thai wife. It will do nothing in the least to assist you in staying here. (I do believe it might help you with an opportunity to a work permit) Thailand is not exactly "Politically Correct" not a bad thing in general, it is better than being overrun with immigrants and foreigners. Sadly, it doesn't allow for assimilation or integration for foreign spouses.