Most Fish Sauces In Thailand Have 'unsafe' Levels Of Preservatives

[impulse]

Gosh, just last year I was reading that the problem with fish sauce was the fish guts, that harbor parasites that cause liver problems, up to and including liver cancer.

I assumed that was "fresh" fish sauce and not the bottled stuff with enough preservatives to kill anything under the sun (or perhaps maybe not?)

I wonder what else is wrong with fish sauce?

[puipuitom]

Under FAO-WTO for many years a standard for fish sauce was negociated see and in force since 2011 in those countries, who volontarify adopt the specification. See CODEX STAN 302-2011

For Europe a reservation was made.

Also some information on here

[easybullet3]

How about the jornalist actually bothering to check online what "glutamic acid relative to nitrogen" means ???

and perhaps letting the reader know what it means too !!!

[bobl]

Whenever I see a thread like this, many of the people in it remind me of those who got into hysterics over Dihydrogen Monoxide and insisted that it be banned forthwith.

(Dihydrogen Monoxide is almost always fatal if inhaled even in small quantities, yet is widely available and is not a controlled substance)

Edited May 10, 2013 by bobl

[Gsxrnz]

Whenever I see a thread like this, many of the people in it remind me of those who got into hysterics over Dihydrogen Monoxide and insisted that it be banned forthwith.

(Dihydrogen Monoxide is almost always fatal if inhaled even in small quantities, yet is widely available and is not a controlled substance)

Yes, I support you in your lambasting of Dihydrogen Monoxide, more commonly known as DHMO. It is substances such as these that are the real demons in society. And yet it is still commonly available in all parts of the globe with nearly no control on the processing and distribution of this lethal product. It's as though it simply falls from the skies and the authorities do nothing about it.

EDIT: Fish Sauces also contain large amounts of DHMO in addition to MSG, so accidental inhalation of fish sauce in sufficient quantities will also result in death. Because of the complex chemical structure of fish sauce compared to pure DHMO, the death will probably be somewhat more painful. More facts about DHMO can be found here. http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

Edited May 10, 2013 by Gsxrnz

[rsokolowski]

Gosh, just last year I was reading that the problem with fish sauce was the fish guts, that harbor parasites that cause liver problems, up to and including liver cancer.

I assumed that was "fresh" fish sauce and not the bottled stuff with enough preservatives to kill anything under the sun (or perhaps maybe not?)

I wonder what else is wrong with fish sauce?

What is wrong with fish sauce, nothing is wrong with fish sauce? To make it they cut up a lot of raw whole fish and throw them in a big vat with a lot of salt and add water, then let it sit in the hot Thai sun for about a year, then filter out the bits (so that it is clear), and put it in a bottle. What could be wrong with this process? After a year in a salt bath I doubt any parasites (or anything else) would survive? I happen to really like the stuff, but making it is a pretty disgusting process.

[Greer]

About 36 per cent of samples contained a level of glutamic acid relative to nitrogen that was higher than the standard, and about 9.1 per cent of samples had a level that was lower than standard.

Still confused about what this means.

They put too much MSG in the fish sauce? Great...... Never new there was a "safe" legal level for MSG in anything in Thailand.

Who has read the labels of bottled sauces sold in stores? I have. Essentially none are without MSG. I buy Kikoman soy sauce, made in Japan, because it doesn't have MSG.

Thais are to healthy foods what redwoods are to coral reefs. They're miles apart.

There are some that claim to be msg free, but again since when would glutamic acid be classed as a preservative?

The report doesn't say that - it says that about 4.5% of samples contained BENZOIC ACID or preservative agent that was higher than the standard.

[Dr Wanchai]

nothing is better than a good old sea salt ....

Have a read here

http://www.dfwx.com/gourmet.html

The cheap end sea salts are normally the by product of desalination plants and can be very bad for you as they also contain high levels of contaminants.

The site quoted above is a commercial web site and so naturally would recommend their own brand of

sea salt they are selling. Take it with a pinch of salt !

[MAJIC]

I don't know about the unsafe levels of Preservatives,but the one most common preservative in Popular Fish Sauces are around 25% Salt,surely that should also be cause for concern? and i'm not even going to start on high Sugar Levels in products!

[lomatopo]

Nothing copious amounts of oil, more salt, sugar and Ajinomoto can't off-set.

[lvdkeyes]

.

The fish sauces that I've 'tasted' are so hot that I doubt that any bugs could live in them anyway, never mind preservatives.

Fish sauce in and of itself is not hot unless you add chilies.

[Ken]

If you ever saw ow it was made you would run the other direction. It is also linked quite substantially with cancer as a catalyst.

I am having trouble finding such links to cancer (with google). Care to share?

[lomatopo]

Given the lack of cleanliness, and temperature control, during the fermentation process, chemical preservatives are pretty much required to insure any sort of shelf life, and hopefully keep death and illness to a minimum.

Not all chemical preservatives are bad, and in the case of rotting fish, they may actually be beneficial.

[ridkun]

I call for the percentage figure misguidance here.

They investigated like 400 brands of fish sauce, when I cannot really recall more than 10 of the top brands. For example, they might investigate 100 brands of carbonated drink and publish that "most of" carbonated drinks are not meeting the standard, but that would not in any way reflect the fact that 80% of the carbonated drinks consumed are Coke and Pepsi that met the standard already. Same goes for fish sauce. The percentage published here does not reflect the chance that you might buy sub-standard fish sauce, or the percentage of the consumer that likely to be affected at all. Yet it is still quoted as "Most fish sauces"?

[partington]

Whenever I see a thread like this, many of the people in it remind me of those who got into hysterics over Dihydrogen Monoxide and insisted that it be banned forthwith.

(Dihydrogen Monoxide is almost always fatal if inhaled even in small quantities, yet is widely available and is not a controlled substance)

Yes, I support you in your lambasting of Dihydrogen Monoxide, more commonly known as DHMO. It is substances such as these that are the real demons in society. And yet it is still commonly available in all parts of the globe with nearly no control on the processing and distribution of this lethal product. It's as though it simply falls from the skies and the authorities do nothing about it.

EDIT: Fish Sauces also contain large amounts of DHMO in addition to MSG, so accidental inhalation of fish sauce in sufficient quantities will also result in death. Because of the complex chemical structure of fish sauce compared to pure DHMO, the death will probably be somewhat more painful. More facts about DHMO can be found here. http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

I like this website! I was seriously thinking of trying to make a site like this myself, but these guys have done a really good job of it. Makes you think.

[PoodMaiDai]

What color shirts will the fish sauce makers wear?

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed. Topic is not about MSG.

[maidu]

From the OP: "We found that most fish sauces and [many] mixed fish sauces contained a level of glutamic acid relative to nitrogen that was either higher or lower than the standard," DMS director-general Dr Niphon Phophattanachai said.

About 36 per cent of samples contained a level of glutamic acid relative to nitrogen that was higher than the standard, and about 9.1 per cent of samples had a level that was lower than standard.

MSG is glutamic acid that has been produced outside of the human (or animal) body.

source

The OP has two direct references to glutamic acid which is synonymous to MSG. Several posts have been deleted because they referred to MSG (or perhaps for other reasons?). Just because the Thai scientist, DMS director-general Dr Niphon Phophattanachai chose to use the term 'glutamic acid' instead of MSG does not negate the fact that that person is referring to MSG. It could be a mis-translation from Google Translate, which makes mistakes all the time when translating Thai to English or vice versa. It's like calling the American part of North America: the USA or America. It's the same. Also: it's MSG (or, if you prefer; 'glutamic acid relative to nitrogen') which is the primary issue here. It's the 900 lb gorilla in the OP article. Can we discuss the OP article or not?

Edited May 12, 2013 by maidu

[maidu]

I respect science, but I don't completely lean on orthodox scientific studies to define how I feel about (or react to) things. A few hundred years ago, early European settlers to the Americas believed strongly that tomatoes were poisonous. Opinions change and evolve.

If you look for scientific evidence that 'glutamic acid relative to nitrogen' is mildly toxic, you can find it. If you look for scientific evidence that it's ok, you can find that also. I go mostly with what I've personally experienced. Next, I go with first-hand mentions from people I converse with. Science is good, but it's not the end-all finality on everything. There are still mysteries. For example: no one knows for sure what causes

various types of cancers or headaches.

Let me say, in closing: If you have, or influence kids, please try and keep them away from 'glutamic acid relative to nitrogen' laden foods. I know that's near impossible, particularly in Thailand, because nearly every snack food, luncheon meat, and restaurant fare has it. But do your best. Even if you don't want to believe 'glutamic acid relative to nitrogen' is harmful, just take it on faith, because if you're wrong, you may be doing a dire disservice to kids you're watching over. I've been in to health food since I read 'Back To Eden' when I was 19. All indications, to me (and many others), are that 'glutamic acid relative to nitrogen' is bad. You can take that with as many grains of salt as you choose.

[krisb]

How bout the fish sauce with the dried squid on the label. Safe?

[xylophone]

It is no wonder that there is some confusion around glutamic acid and MSG because these terms appear to be very interchangeable when accessing information over the Internet and looking at various articles. And judging from what I have read I would be almost certain that the author of the original report has confused glutamic acid with MSG.

We know that MSG is called a flavour enhancer, but in many references to glutamic acid, this is also called a flavour enhancer, so what is it, a flavour enhancer or a preservative, or both?

The link ( www.journal.au.edu/au_techno/2008/jul08/journal121_article06.pdf) refers to an article about glutamic acid and MSG and states the following, "Food manufacturing and chemical plants produce glutamic acid commercially. Its use in food began in the early 1900s as a component of a flavor enhancer called "monosodium glutamate."

If glutamic acid is indeed a component of MSG, then that would explain a lot about the original article, and as I said, it is my opinion that we are discussing the same thing, however we are probably never going to find out exactly what the report meant.

I don't know where the moderators want to go with this, and in a post of mine which was deleted, I tried to point out that there was some "middle ground" to this. I won't revisit the original post, however on a much broader scale which would give food for thought (sorry about the pun), on the one hand in this thread there are people who are saying something is good for you and some that say it isn't, and we rely on scientists and all of the trials that they can conduct to look after our safety, and in the main I agree with this. HOWEVER, let's not forget that in my lifetime these very scientists have said that: –

– Eggs are good for you, eggs are bad for you, eggs are good for you, eggs are bad for you, and now eggs in moderation are good for you!

– Butter is good for you, butter is bad for you, butter is good for you.

– Margarine is good for you, margarine is bad for you, the newer margarines are okay because of the removal of trans fats.

– Meat is good for you, too much meat is bad for you, some meat is okay for you, however an undisclosed amount may cause cancer.

– Cooking oils are good for you, some cooking oils are good for you, some cooking oils are bad for you depending upon their processing.

– Coconut oil is bad for you, coconut oil is good for you.

And I could go on and on, however the main point is that it would appear that even our most revered scientists cannot come up with something definite as regards many of the foods we ingest. Perhaps it's because of the complex nature of the foods themselves and the way the body uses them, I am not sufficiently skilled enough to know about this, however I do know that I will steer away from any foods which cause me discomfort in one way or another.

[Thai at Heart]

It is no wonder that there is some confusion around glutamic acid and MSG because these terms appear to be very interchangeable when accessing information over the Internet and looking at various articles. And judging from what I have read I would be almost certain that the author of the original report has confused glutamic acid with MSG.

We know that MSG is called a flavour enhancer, but in many references to glutamic acid, this is also called a flavour enhancer, so what is it, a flavour enhancer or a preservative, or both?

The link ( www.journal.au.edu/au_techno/2008/jul08/journal121_article06.pdf) refers to an article about glutamic acid and MSG and states the following, "Food manufacturing and chemical plants produce glutamic acid commercially. Its use in food began in the early 1900s as a component of a flavor enhancer called "monosodium glutamate."

If glutamic acid is indeed a component of MSG, then that would explain a lot about the original article, and as I said, it is my opinion that we are discussing the same thing, however we are probably never going to find out exactly what the report meant.

I don't know where the moderators want to go with this, and in a post of mine which was deleted, I tried to point out that there was some "middle ground" to this. I won't revisit the original post, however on a much broader scale which would give food for thought (sorry about the pun), on the one hand in this thread there are people who are saying something is good for you and some that say it isn't, and we rely on scientists and all of the trials that they can conduct to look after our safety, and in the main I agree with this. HOWEVER, let's not forget that in my lifetime these very scientists have said that: –

– Eggs are good for you, eggs are bad for you, eggs are good for you, eggs are bad for you, and now eggs in moderation are good for you!

– Butter is good for you, butter is bad for you, butter is good for you.

– Margarine is good for you, margarine is bad for you, the newer margarines are okay because of the removal of trans fats.

– Meat is good for you, too much meat is bad for you, some meat is okay for you, however an undisclosed amount may cause cancer.

– Cooking oils are good for you, some cooking oils are good for you, some cooking oils are bad for you depending upon their processing.

– Coconut oil is bad for you, coconut oil is good for you.

And I could go on and on, however the main point is that it would appear that even our most revered scientists cannot come up with something definite as regards many of the foods we ingest. Perhaps it's because of the complex nature of the foods themselves and the way the body uses them, I am not sufficiently skilled enough to know about this, however I do know that I will steer away from any foods which cause me discomfort in one way or another.

I think it is without doubt a very controversial product, with some people apparently having some type of reaction to it. At the end of the day, everything in moderation isn't a bad policy, and if you do watch how many food dishes are prepared in Thailand it is a pretty ubiquitous product. Beyond that, it is hiding in many many sauces for cooking, so that when it is added again in powdered form, can quickly add up too much.

But then again, to much salt is very obvious to the taste buds, and to me so is MSG.

As far as i understand, Glutamic acid occurs naturally in gazillions of things, and provides the "5th" taste sense. Problem is when MSG is added on top, it's all a bit too much sometimes. My missus tries to use none of it in powdered (pongcherhot) form, because she now knows that many of the oyster sauses, and fish sauces have it hiding inside.

Beyond that, why they have to go to the effort of changing the name to get around labelling is in and of itself disgraceful. Cooking in many forms survived perfectly well for millenia without having MSG added, or yeast extracts, or hydrolysed whatever, so how they get away with freely adding it into processed foods I don't know.

[maidu]

What I've found is Glutamic acid is produced in the body and is naturally present in many common foods.

MSG is quite similar, but is a salt form of Glutamic acid, and is formed via a chemical process - outside a body. Glutamic acid is probably not harmful in moderate amounts for humans. In contrast, MSG can be harmful, for a segment of the human population.

The Thai who is quoted in the OP refers twice to 'glutamic acid relative to nitrogen' which I think is code for MSG. Perhaps he didn't want to mention MSG, because there's a strong lobby of people (in China and Thailand, and beyond) who are in the business of selling the stuff. I had a letter dissing MSG which was published in a major Thai newspaper, and there was an angry response from the head of one of those MSG organizations. If Thais realize the potential dangers of MSG, especially as it might affect their kids' brains/thinking abilities and behavior, then some of those people in the MSG biz will stand to make less money.

[partington]

There is essentially no difference between glutamic acid and monosodium glutamate. Monosodium glutamate is the sodium salt of glutamic acid, and once you put either glutamic acid, or monosodium glutamate into water, or into a broth containing noodles, or any other food you eat, they are chemically absolutely identical.

Both result in making identical solutions of glutamate ions, and this is the chemical entity that the taste receptors on your tongue recognise and this is what enters your bloodstream - glutamate ions.

This is a very basic chemical fact. It is also true that every human makes glutamate, and your blood already contains glutamate ions, about 6 or 7 mg per litre, that are indistinguishable chemically in any way from the glutamate that goes into your blood when you eat a meal containing monosodium glutamate.

This again does not prove that people do not feel bad when they eat MSG. It is a little harder to argue that something you make internally and is already in your blood is semi-toxic.

Here's what I'm saying:

[partington]

Incidentally the nitrogen content that the OP refers to is the way food is often analysed for protein content in a food lab. As neither carbohydrates or fats contain much nitrogen but protein does, the amount of nitrogen in a food sample is often measured as an indicator of the total protein content.

So when the OP talks about glutamic acid per total nitrogen he may very well be talking about how much glutamic acid per total protein content there is. All proteins are made up of around 20 amino acids, and glutamic acid is one of these. BUT in proteins the glutamic acid is bound into immensely long chains, and is not soluble, therefore cannot form glutamate ions, so is irrelevant to MSG.

It may actually be that the OP is NOT talking about glutamate (MSG) ions at all but simply the amino acid composition of the proteins left in the fish sauce -it's hard to tell from a newspaper. So the mod who deleted all our fantastic comments may have been right all along .

[Thai at Heart]

There is essentially no difference between glutamic acid and monosodium glutamate. Monosodium glutamate is the sodium salt of glutamic acid, and once you put either glutamic acid, or monosodium glutamate into water, or into a broth containing noodles, or any other food you eat, they are chemically absolutely identical.

Both result in making identical solutions of glutamate ions, and this is the chemical entity that the taste receptors on your tongue recognise and this is what enters your bloodstream - glutamate ions.

This is a very basic chemical fact. It is also true that every human makes glutamate, and your blood already contains glutamate ions, about 6 or 7 mg per litre, that are indistinguishable chemically in any way from the glutamate that goes into your blood when you eat a meal containing monosodium glutamate.

This again does not prove that people do not feel bad when they eat MSG. It is a little harder to argue that something you make internally and is already in your blood is semi-toxic.

Here's what I'm saying:

Presumably it is present in foodstuffs in natural form to a certain level. They say parmesan is full of it. But, does one spoonful of msg equate to eating 5kg of parmesan?

[partington]

Well you can look this stuff up. Parmesan contains 1.2 g free glutamate per 100g or 3.5 ounces , about the same as a teaspoon of MSG, I'd guess...

[Thai at Heart]

Well you can look this stuff up. Parmesan contains 1.2 g free glutamate per 100g or 3.5 ounces , about the same as a teaspoon of MSG, I'd guess...

I saw it. If anyone loves Marmite or Vegemite but complains about gluten problems.....

Hmmmmm

[xylophone]

Well you can look this stuff up. Parmesan contains 1.2 g free glutamate per 100g or 3.5 ounces , about the same as a teaspoon of MSG, I'd guess...

No probs with that, however half a ladle full of the stuff on top of that already in the other sauces, would probably be considered too much!!

And as I said who are we to believe in this whole thing...........Quote: "According to a report on MSG by the Arizona Center for

Advanced Medicine, MSG promotes the growth, and spread, of cancer cells within the body, and can also be linked to "sudden cardiac death." In a study in the February-March, 2008 issue of the "Journal of Autoimmunity," researchers state that MSG is linked with obesity and inflammation within the body, particularly the liver. The researchers also call for it to be re-evaluated as a food additive, and suggested removing it from the food chain".

[maidu]

"Glutamic acid and MSG are not exactly the same. Glutamic acid is the amino acid form of the compound, chemical formula C5H9NO4, which is a natural part of proteins. Glutamic acid can also be made in the human body, since it is a non-essential amino acid. MSG is the sodium salt of glutamic acid, chemical formula C5H8NNaO4. It occurs naturally, but is also manufactured and added to foods as a flavor enhancer. ......the side effects from consuming MSG are related to dosage and rapid absorption rather than to an allergy.source "

Glutamic acid (C5H9NO4) is a bit different than MSG (C5H8NNaO4) The Na in the latter equation, is the single sodium (monosodium). Sodium is half of salt, so that's what probably gives MSG its hyper salty taste, and why its so popular as a taste enhancer. It's too bad the Thai authority in the OP couldn't be precise in his assessment, or perhaps something was lost in the translation. Most of the sauces he studied are heavily loaded with MSG. Why not just go ahead and say so? Why be coy about it?