Problem With House Owners Not Paying Maintenance.

[jrtmedic]

Most of the posts here demonstrate why buying property in Thailand is never a good idea !

[NoshowJones]

List all the 39 houses in the village (in number sequence hopefully) on a large whiteboard at the security entrance and just tick/colour all the house numbers that have paid. Those houses (no names) who have not paid will stand out (in some way eg. no tick, colour, a blank space etc.)

Our Committee did just that and 96% of 100+ houses paid within a month.

Maybe I've missed something, but are we talking about houses or condos here. I bought a house seven years ago, and as far as I know, my wife does not pay maintenance bills. if she does, then she has not told me.

If your house is in a gated village and the common areas are maintained, garbage collected etc then somebody is paying for that. If you have a stand alone house then of course there is no community charge.

Thanks Topt, yes, I have a stand alone house.

[oops]

From experience, you cannot block off the streets and the first one attempting to deny access to the village with a Thai will find themselves in a battle that they won't win and in a case of refusing them access to their home which they most likely paid cash for, you could expect the death of a security guard or the person that ordered the guard to refuse access. Even more realalistic, you would find both dead. You cannot as a foreigner do anymore then arrange a meeting, aside from refusing to pay. Thai's are typically the first to stop paying and they will use any reason to do it, actually some won't even do that. Prodomenitly a Foreigner village it was the Thai's behind in maintenance and refusing or not responding to late payment demands.

What happened in my case was we all got together and sued the developer but that was only because he didn't put the pool in or the stores as promised. The maintenance was secondary however every bit as important, but not enough to get what we wanted control of the village....only later to find out we couldn't have control, it has to be Thai's. We can sit on the board but have very little if any where the money goes.

This is how it ended. The pool would never be built and while

The village was handed over to what they called the village elder,someone with no experience,but had the biggest and nicest house in the village paid for by his sister who married a foreigner from Germany.

Needless to say they came up will all kinds of ideas for the village which all Thai wives seem to be gun ho for and had nothing to do with maintenance...excuse me, it did have a lot to do with maintenance, it created it a mess that was left for the now defunk maintenance crew which was now getting a paycheck from the village and then charging us to cut the over growth from the empty lots. The trash starting piling up, trees were dieing and falling over, but hey! everything was fine. Oh, what happened to our splash fund, that money was being used for the parties they were throwing in the village every month? For the large banner signs in Thai that would strech across the street so the farrangs could read even though the village was 90% foreigner. Of course we wont' forget the loud speakers and tents they had to have.

[Wally4]

You need to appoint a Juristic person. To do this you will require a 51% 'For' vote based on the number of 'plots' i.e. Chanotes, on the original village plot plan, not on the number of houses in the village. Each Chanote gets one vote, if a person has a large plot with two Chanotes they get two votes. The Juristic person has legal powers to enforce any rules as agreed by a majority of the residents. The Juristic person can change when a new committee is formed if required. As a previous poster said - you can lodge an address at the Land Office of any resident who does not pay, they can then claim back oustanding fees at the time of sale.

A problem my village has is with renters who claim that the owner should pay. Quite often the owner is difficult to contact especially if the renter claims he has no contact info.

[malcoml]

It works pretty simple in our village.

If you don't pay then the garbage truck does not take your garbage.

There was a confusion with out payment so garbage piled up at our house fairly quickly.

[johnnyk]

It works pretty simple in our village.

If you don't pay then the garbage truck does not take your garbage.

There was a confusion with out payment so garbage piled up at our house fairly quickly.

But surely it can't pile up indefintely so at the end of the day who cleans it up if Deadbeat Dan doesn't pay or clean it up?

[jinners]

You have my total sympathy. I own a house on a Soi, without any common space, and so was told by a lawyer it's not possible to put a charge on the houses of the non paying thieving parasitic scum who benefit from the payers and bare faced enjoy the lighting and security provided for by us. I wish there was something we could do as I would love to serve these pond life with some kind of notice. Both farang and Thai.

We tried to block non payers from coming in but were informed this is not legal. The non trash pick up is a non starter for reasons already stated. I have personally tried to reason/shame/cajole/beg without success. I hope they get piles.

[Delight]

You have my total sympathy. I own a house on a Soi, without any common space, and so was told by a lawyer it's not possible to put a charge on the houses of the non paying thieving parasitic scum who benefit from the payers and bare faced enjoy the lighting and security provided for by us. I wish there was something we could do as I would love to serve these pond life with some kind of notice. Both farang and Thai.

We tried to block non payers from coming in but were informed this is not legal. The non trash pick up is a non starter for reasons already stated. I have personally tried to reason/shame/cajole/beg without success. I hope they get piles.

jinners

Do the non payers have legal access to their houses? If so who owns the common land ?

[giddyup]

There will be a meeting discussing maintenance on the 25th of this month so will report on progress, if any. The problem is also the apathy of the homeowners. At the last meeting 6 people attended, representing 6 out of 39 houses. The non-attenders and non-payers are the first to squeal if the maintenance isn't up to scratch. If I ever buy another house here it will be a stand alone, and I will be responsible for my own security and maintenance.

[tropic1000]

As mentioned in my post above, i would look for and post an English version of the 2000 Thai Village Development Act. Here it is: http://www.addresstalk.com/v/53/ncot-network-of-condominium-owners-in-thailand-bangkok A Thai version is posted in my early post. Keep in mind that these are not necessarily official versions but they could get you started.

Unfortunately, the English version i am posting here was not copied well, and if anyone has a better version please post it in this thread and at http://www.addresstalk.com/v/53/ncot-network-of-condominium-owners-in-thailand-bangkok .

For Giddyup, you will need to find out if you village has already achieved any juristic status and, if not, you can look to see if you could achieve that under this law. A good lawyer or a trip to the Land Office might get you started. An understanding of this law may help you to see what rights you have.

If anyone has experience with setting up a village under this law [or any other law!], please post it on this thread and on AddressTalk. As mentioned, it's often hard to get all the owners together at the same time, let alone to give them the info they need to reach any consensus. A good medium is the AddressTalk.com website where you can set up an online community for your village, add members, connect members, and post documents. Its free. This could be useful too in the case where there are owners who are traveling or simply have two places of residence.

Edited May 16, 2013 by tropic1000

[Delight]

As mentioned in my post above, i would look for and post an English version of the 2000 Thai Village Development Act. Here it is: http://www.addresstalk.com/v/53/ncot-network-of-condominium-owners-in-thailand-bangkok A Thai version is posted in my early post. Keep in mind that these are not necessarily official versions but they could get you started.

Unfortunately, the English version i am posting here was not copied well, and if anyone has a better version please post it in this thread and at http://www.addresstalk.com/v/53/ncot-network-of-condominium-owners-in-thailand-bangkok .

For Giddyup, you will need to find out if you village has already achieved any juristic status and, if not, you can look to see if you could achieve that under this law. A good lawyer or a trip to the Land Office might get you started. An understanding of this law may help you to see what rights you have.

If anyone has experience with setting up a village under this law [or any other law!], please post it on this thread and on AddressTalk. As mentioned, it's often hard to get all the owners together at the same time, let alone to give them the info they need to reach any consensus. A good medium is the AddressTalk.com website where you can set up an online community for your village, add members, connect members, and post documents. Its free. This could be useful too in the case where there are owners who are traveling or simply have two places of residence.

I sense that your interest is just about promoting Address Talk.

I can find no record of this 2000 Thai Village Development Act

[ignis]

There are lots of different things to look at.......

We have 63 detached houses in our Village, 10 years ago the maintained cost was 750 baht per month... some people did not pay, some houses are empty, some still are, 3 are Holiday homes only and people come to 2 of them on long holiday weekends, 1 x owned by a German or rather the wife they live in Germany and come for 6 weeks a year..

Yes we formed a residents committee, we tried many thinks like stickers, changed every month for rubbish, car pass etc......... For the past 2 year everyone pays or the one that are lived in, the monthly fee is 300 baht month........ We have [pay for] a night Security, when he has a day off there are 2 different owners that take over, day time many of use are in, we walk around the Village, 2 old guys walk round 5 time a day 1x guy on his motorbike [not at all sure he can see anything] and he has never gone over 15 km hours for past 10 years, but his presents is around a few times a day......... 1x per month we all meet up and sweep the roads, we take it turns to cut/trim the public areas, the rubbish fee is collected by 2 young ladies every 6 months [20 baht per week for 2x collections !!].......... Monthly residents committee news letter is given to everyone, shows if someone has NOT paid, what money was spent on and what the balance is..

​Try to look at way to cut the maintaince cost..... Pool is always a big problem, a gate with card key ?

[giddyup]

There are lots of different things to look at.......

We have 63 detached houses in our Village, 10 years ago the maintained cost was 750 baht per month... some people did not pay, some houses are empty, some still are, 3 are Holiday homes only and people come to 2 of them on long holiday weekends, 1 x owned by a German or rather the wife they live in Germany and come for 6 weeks a year..

Yes we formed a residents committee, we tried many thinks like stickers, changed every month for rubbish, car pass etc......... For the past 2 year everyone pays or the one that are lived in, the monthly fee is 300 baht month........ We have [pay for] a night Security, when he has a day off there are 2 different owners that take over, day time many of use are in, we walk around the Village, 2 old guys walk round 5 time a day 1x guy on his motorbike [not at all sure he can see anything] and he has never gone over 15 km hours for past 10 years, but his presents is around a few times a day......... 1x per month we all meet up and sweep the roads, we take it turns to cut/trim the public areas, the rubbish fee is collected by 2 young ladies every 6 months [20 baht per week for 2x collections !!].......... Monthly residents committee news letter is given to everyone, shows if someone has NOT paid, what money was spent on and what the balance is..

​Try to look at way to cut the maintaince cost..... Pool is always a big problem, a gate with card key ?

Some good suggestions, thanks. The gate with a key card makes sense as the security guard is usually fast asleep after 11 pm and the day guard doesn't check anybody anyway, just raises the boom whenever anyone approaches. Personally I couldn't give a hoot about the swimming pool, never use it, so it can become a frog pond for all I care. We'll see how loud the non-payers start to scream once the amenities start to deteriorate.

[tropic1000]

As mentioned in my post above, i would look for and post an English version of the 2000 Thai Village Development Act. Here is the correct link: http://www.addresstalk.com/forums/forums/government--2/topics/the-land-development-act-b-e-2543-2000 A Thai version is posted in my earlier post. Keep in mind that these might not be official versions, but they could get you started.

Unfortunately, the link to the English version show a badly done copy, and if anyone has a better version please post it in this thread and at http://www.addresstalk.com/v/53/ncot-network-of-condominium-owners-in-thailand-bangkok .

I sense that your interest is just about promoting AddressTalk.

I can find no record of this 2000 Thai Village Development Act

Sorry if i got carried away about AddressTalk, however, i see i input the wrong web link for the English version. Here is the correct link: http://www.addresstalk.com/forums/forums/government--2/topics/the-land-development-act-b-e-2543-2000

In any case, a web solution is certainly an option to consider for villages, and while AddressTalk tailors itself for multi-unit properties, Facebook is an option that many have used too; both are free, so its up to each village's circumstances and research in figuring out useful resources.

As far as the Thai law goes, "Delight" is right - its hard to track this law down. I was told about it by a Thai property manager who had actually used it. The Thai version is at: http://www.addresstalk.com/forums/forums/government--2/topics/thailand-village-development-act-thai-language . It's worth having a Thai friend read through it to see if it might help in cases where village governance is ailing.

I believe that all new developments are required to incorporate this law, and that some older ones can seek to register after the fact at the Land Office. If you hear differently, please let me know. I know one village that has done this in Pattaya - it's called Central Park 4.

The idea of the gate with the key card sounds excellent, but it may require approval by a juristic body under Thai law [just guessing here]; on the other hand, who has sympathy for the spongers anyway? The notion of letting the pool or other facilities go into disrepair sounds sad, because, first, it may be hard to bring them back to life, and secondly, this action would very likely hurt both property values and any efforts to unify owners. How about a key card for the pool too? I'd like to know some brand or product names if any has a good key card system.

To summarize, if basic meetings are not working, try:

[1] Check what Thai laws might help organize members with binding covenants

[2] Set up an online community to network members

[3] Check what guerrilla tactics make sense for your village: i like the card key entry at the gate and/or pool.

Edited May 18, 2013 by tropic1000

[tropic1000]

Here's a reference in the Bangkok Post yesterday:

link to Bangkok Post removed per forum rules, please read them

Edited June 1, 2013 by Crossy

[kirkieb]

I have just come from our Village AGM where our committee have resigned due to the anger and frustration at the non paying scum. Having now stuck my nose in to see what our constitution states or even the selling agreements from up to 15 yrs ago I'm finding we don't have much to go on. I proposed we as a body write a new constitution and inform all households of the pending 30 days Special AGM to firstly create a Corium and secondly elect a new committee. The people not paying is approximately 20% and its not because of anything more than they know we have not been able to make them pay. We considered the sticker idea on all vehicles but the security guards didn't like being harassed by the Foreigners entering. I said sack them and there was a huge outcry. So next idea was to do the name and shame board at the gates and again was frowned upon by the insignificant few. Maybe there were some non payers amongst us today. So my dilemma is this with no constitution, no committee and village funds in the red does anyone know a good lawyer at mates rates to put the note on the Chinook at the Lands Office of the people not paying so we can at least as conscientious owners carry the load until things become good again.

[FiftyTwo]

There is nothing you can do, as a foreigner you can't own or control land in Thailand!

For Thais

The moobaan developer asks for 3 years fees up front for a reason.

They can't block sales or do anything legally to the house owner ...... most houses are owned by a Thai bank.

They can't block access to their home ....... Thai law grants access to their homes at all times.

Usually what happens is after the first three years the security firm are dismissed, and the street lighting is taken over by the local government. I always think security is a waste of money anyway, they just sleep and tip off criminals about owners on holiday.

I was a non-payer for my last two moo-baans, I will be a non-payer in my next one, up to the landlord, not up to a tenant. Never lived where there was a club house or pool, didn't want to pay.

As Ignis says, cut your costs to minimum (sorry not your costs, not your house).

No security, sweep your own streets, rubbish collection by PAYG firm.

Final solution, just rent a house somewhere else, it's not as if you were allowed to buy the house or land in the first place. Great OP by the way, foreigner freely and publicly admitting criminal activity (controlling land in Thailand) subject to summary arrest and deportation, complaining about others with small unenforceable debts.

Edited September 15, 2013 by FiftyTwo

[guzzi850m2]

In my moo baan we have app 120 houses, 95% build now. Only 5 or 6 are not paying.

I think the running of the village will very soon be transferred to us (the owners).

They have put a sign outside all the houses paying saying: Thank you for paying for maintenance.

The ones not paying have received a letter saying: We have reported your missing maintenance fee to the landoffice and you can not sell your house before it's paid.

Also the cheap Charlie expat not paying are transferring his trash out of the village by himself on his sidecar bike and have to show id card every time he enters the village.

One evening I had been drinking at an expats house in the other end of the Village and were walking home quite drunk and I saw him in his garden and I shouted to him: When do you pay maintenance you cheap Charlie?

He didn't say anything and pretended not to hear me, he-he.

He haven't spoken to me since (our kids in same private school) and I ignore him (when sober, lol).

[kirkieb]

The law states you cant restrict access to anyone's home. It also states that any village over 39 house must by law have security. Any village not employing security regardless if they sleep or not can be fined a lot of money. Secondly the majority of homes in my village are Foreigner occupied so the houses are of a reasonable standard and thirdly and this is the most important the rules also state that if there is no security at a gate then the road becomes a public access road and can be used by anyone to come and go as they please so the fight to have these lazy, incredibly selfish people who don't pay once again pay is well worth it. I'm going down the path of having an encumbrance placed on the Chinook to hit them ten years down the path if needs be so those selfish bastards squabbling over a few dollars for what can only be described as brilliant dollar for dollar value receiving services they refuse to pay for. You don't pay then your a mug and should have a register set up either challenging your honesty and having your visa revoked or renting or buying anything is so hard to do you will look elsewhere to live your selfish insignificant lifestyle. Whew beer o'clock time

[kurnell]

We have a few gorillas in our mooban that won't pay also, but what can you do, throw dog shit into their yard?

[kirkieb]

There is nothing you can do, as a foreigner you can't own or control land in Thailand!

For Thais

The moobaan developer asks for 3 years fees up front for a reason.

They can't block sales or do anything legally to the house owner ...... most houses are owned by a Thai bank.

They can't block access to their home ....... Thai law grants access to their homes at all times.

Usually what happens is after the first three years the security firm are dismissed, and the street lighting is taken over by the local government. I always think security is a waste of money anyway, they just sleep and tip off criminals about owners on holiday.

I was a non-payer for my last two moo-baans, I will be a non-payer in my next one, up to the landlord, not up to a tenant. Never lived where there was a club house or pool, didn't want to pay.

As Ignis says, cut your costs to minimum (sorry not your costs, not your house).

No security, sweep your own streets, rubbish collection by PAYG firm.

Final solution, just rent a house somewhere else, it's not as if you were allowed to buy the house or land in the first place. Great OP by the way, foreigner freely and publicly admitting criminal activity (controlling land in Thailand) subject to summary arrest and deportation, complaining about others with small unenforceable debts.

Its a shame you seem to think we are as naïve and uneducated as you clearly come across as being. Nearly every word you have claimed in your post is not only rubbish but in actual fact there are many laws under different Thai Real Estate Laws absolutely making enforceable control over someone's property ( foreign or Thai owned) once the village has its Committee, and Juristic person any individual not paying maintenance can have an encumbrance placed at the Lands Office restricting sale of the property until all debts are paid and the Encumbrance is removed by the organisation who placed it there. If your Constitution states at the time of sale in the sale agreement that any fees not paid will endure a 10% fee per month they are late then over several years that amounts to a lot of money on the small prices the properties are sold for here. Its all relevant on the wording of a individuals village and the sale agreements registered at the time. Stating Op is clearly and publicly admitting criminal activity is not only a moronic statement but completely untrue and unreasonable when the forum is to discuss all matters and if there was criminal activities then the mods would soon remove from the forum and or ban the Ops. All the statements I have made are actual law and completely legal to discus so maybe you should consider finding something your worthwhile at contributing to and not look to make statements you clearly know nothing about

[Baboy]

We have been thru a similar experience to all of the posters. Our gated community was one of the 1st on the darkside & built some 21 years ago. At the time there was no contract from the developer regarding monthly fees just an " understanding " of what would be paid. The development was probaly around 70% farang & 30% Thai. Only small community with 24 houses. The 1st to actually stop paying was a farang couple then it just snowballed into well they are not paying neither am I mentality.

It has now got to the stage where everyone pays their own rubbish collection, streets are cleaned by householders & general upkeep left to those that care about their living environment. It is working & the place still looks good. we have lost the 24 hour security & the pool is now empty. Some of us tried to explain to the house owners that by keeping the pool & security value is added to your property should you wish to sell or rent Fell on deaf ears.

The pool or security did not effect our place ( except maybe resale value) as I had always had a very good alarm system & when the hotel was built across the road we could use that pool for 40 baht a day. I think what happens is the non payers just wear you down & in the end you cant be stuffed messing with people who are just plain mutts.

We have since moved out ( last month ) into a new place we built on 2 rai of land near Mabprachan. No more community to worry about. Nice neighbors , all good in the hood. We will probably be putting the old house up for sale as it is very well built & a great house but we will certainly inform any would be buyers of the situation. Bottom line it will more than likely bring down the value of the place but would never lie to someone just to make a sale.

To the OP I hope you can get something sorted out , good luck as dealing with someone that wont part with a small amount of money each month to make things easy is not an easy task.

[kirkieb]

Ok an update for those interested. Have spent days reading through the various acts here in Thailand and the Juristic person in accordance with Sections 79,80,81 and 83 of the Act states that by the very nature of a Association being registered with 51% of the Chanute's not dwellings in your village. Once you have that you register the Association at the District Office you come under and it is under law the Person who is the Juristic Person is the Directors or Committee of the Association. Once you have that done and its not easy as I'm just starting that process in 138 Homes but once you have 51% then all those who don't want to pay their maintenance for a small fee at the Lands Office can have what we in the west would call an encumbrance placed on the title stopping the sale of that property until the debt is repaid to the Association.

Its actually a great system and really when you get your head around it we could learn some things here. Its a scary thing as previous members in my village have had death threats by people thinking they are above the law and refused to pay and if we pushed the case then there would be trouble. My advise is record every conversation you have when speaking to these individuals and any threats they make refer them immediately to the Police.

[FiftyTwo]

Its actually a great system and really when you get your head around it we could learn some things here. Its a scary thing as previous members in my village have had death threats by people thinking they are above the law and refused to pay and if we pushed the case then there would be trouble. My advise is record every conversation you have when speaking to these individuals and any threats they make refer them immediately to the Police.

More of a worry is from those that don't threaten, but just remove you from the village by whatever means.

I wouldn't want to be the person in their line of fire.

My experience is that foreigners threaten and bluster, Thais kill.

Good luck anyway!

And good to hear your Thai is good enough to have conversations with the locals, well done.

Edited September 17, 2013 by FiftyTwo

[pilm]

My advise is record every conversation you have when speaking to these individuals and any threats they make refer them immediately to the Police.

Not really conductive to a peaceful life in Thailand.

I would probably forget about it all and just take care of my own property. Simply because if it gets to the stage of making demands of Thais, people getting threatened and police getting involved, it isn't going to be a nice peaceful life for you.

[kirkieb]

All good advise and after yesterday speaking to the local man in charge of our Municipality he said pretty much the same thing as we all have experienced. So we came home typed up a letter in Thai and English and hand delivered it to everyone in 150 house estate. We advised all owners that due to the fact we have no money left if we get no response from all owners by Monday we will sack all the guards, remove the rubbish collection and stop maintaining the gardens. WE will allow the Council to reclaim the land of common areas and open the road as a public road. These things once done can not be undone. As foreigners we have had many discussions with the 50 /50 Thai foreigner owners and most were unaware how bad it was and now we have gone to the trouble to show we care about everyone here there is already some signs of community spirit. In saying that we all know where we are and anything can happen between now and Monday. We just hope it doesn't go down the bad way. It all comes down to setting up the Body corporate properly when all this started and we would never have such crazy alternates. 15 years after village was built

[FiftyTwo]

All good advise and after yesterday speaking to the local man in charge of our Municipality he said pretty much the same thing as we all have experienced. So we came home typed up a letter in Thai and English and hand delivered it to everyone in 150 house estate. We advised all owners that due to the fact we have no money left if we get no response from all owners by Monday we will sack all the guards, remove the rubbish collection and stop maintaining the gardens. WE will allow the Council to reclaim the land of common areas and open the road as a public road. These things once done can not be undone. As foreigners we have had many discussions with the 50 /50 Thai foreigner owners and most were unaware how bad it was and now we have gone to the trouble to show we care about everyone here there is already some signs of community spirit. In saying that we all know where we are and anything can happen between now and Monday. We just hope it doesn't go down the bad way. It all comes down to setting up the Body corporate properly when all this started and we would never have such crazy alternates. 15 years after village was built

I think you have done the best you can in the circumstances.

[Baboy]

Good luck .

Look forward to a satisfactory outcome for you.

[FiftyTwo]

It works pretty simple in our village.

If you don't pay then the garbage truck does not take your garbage.

There was a confusion with out payment so garbage piled up at our house fairly quickly.

You'd be amazed how little garbage removal is needed once you learn to burn it all in your back garden.

No payment required.

[Rimmer]

Inflammatory post removed

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