Monks And Money

[atlbravosfan]

many statements regarding Buddha, Buddha is not someone to be worshipped, He is a teacher to learn from and receive guidance from on your path, a path that is different then his but can be lead from his experience.

Buddha talked about 4 possessions, However the sangha was set up as a place of learning and cultivation, now that we are in the information age we can utilize mobile phones and laptops to communicate with those who are not able to attend the wat, did it occur to you that they are being used for teaching as a tool of the temple rather then a direct possession of the individual monk.

Buddha never carved his teachings in stone, just a guiding light who said himself, if certain aspects do not make sense to you disregard them on your personal journey.

I'm glad to see that you think they should be temple property... can't you see though how many monks have their own personal property? Do temples need the newest technology and ipads and iphones? Even at the cost of damage being done to all the enslaved workers around the world? I'm sure lay people could also help communicate the message as well.

As to your last statement, that is what fools do. It's not about 'what makes sense.' It is about what is skillful vs what is not skillful.

your talking about slave workers now, empty most things from your home, discard your cloths and throw away your pc before you judge.

Those slave workers are not there because of want, yes they need the $1 a day to live, stop buying products and they would be worse off (without work), The governments need to be held accountable for that not the customers, stop drawing at straws now.

If I were a monk, indeed, I would have no trouble throwing any of those things away. As of now, I have a family and a job I need to keep and need the technology to perform. We are speaking of monks, you are the one grasping at straws with your argument.

In fact, I have drastically reduced how much I spend, where I spend, and the amount of things I own. Everything I own can fit into two bags, can you say the same?

And you mean to tell me that all the purchases globally has no impact on jobs anywhere or worker's wages? Wages just were handed down out of the sky and none of our actions has any impact on any other lives? And you were a 'Buddhist' monk? Doubt it. Go study dependent-origination again and tell me how we are somehow separate from the issues of other human beings again...

[muythai2013]

I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness."

Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.

only thing really written about drugs in the tipitaka.

[muythai2013]

many statements regarding Buddha, Buddha is not someone to be worshipped, He is a teacher to learn from and receive guidance from on your path, a path that is different then his but can be lead from his experience.

Buddha talked about 4 possessions, However the sangha was set up as a place of learning and cultivation, now that we are in the information age we can utilize mobile phones and laptops to communicate with those who are not able to attend the wat, did it occur to you that they are being used for teaching as a tool of the temple rather then a direct possession of the individual monk.

Buddha never carved his teachings in stone, just a guiding light who said himself, if certain aspects do not make sense to you disregard them on your personal journey.

I'm glad to see that you think they should be temple property... can't you see though how many monks have their own personal property? Do temples need the newest technology and ipads and iphones? Even at the cost of damage being done to all the enslaved workers around the world? I'm sure lay people could also help communicate the message as well.

As to your last statement, that is what fools do. It's not about 'what makes sense.' It is about what is skillful vs what is not skillful.

your talking about slave workers now, empty most things from your home, discard your cloths and throw away your pc before you judge.

Those slave workers are not there because of want, yes they need the $1 a day to live, stop buying products and they would be worse off (without work), The governments need to be held accountable for that not the customers, stop drawing at straws now.

If I were a monk, indeed, I would have no trouble throwing any of those things away. As of now, I have a family and a job I need to keep and need the technology to perform. We are speaking of monks, you are the one grasping at straws with your argument.

In fact, I have drastically reduced how much I spend, where I spend, and the amount of things I own. Everything I own can fit into two bags, can you say the same?

And you mean to tell me that all the purchases globally has no impact on jobs anywhere or worker's wages? Wages just were handed down out of the sky and none of our actions has any impact on any other lives? And you were a 'Buddhist' monk? Doubt it. Go study dependent-origination again and tell me how we are somehow separate from the issues of other human beings again...

We were all having a chat, and you have gotten a little excited, take some deep breaths until you get over the urge to scroll through the forums seeking an argument.

As I said, not every person can attend a Wat, a great deal of people communicate with monks now online when in need of advice and help.

[atlbravosfan]

And you mean to tell me that all the purchases globally has no impact on jobs anywhere or worker's wages? Wages just were handed down out of the sky and none of our actions has any impact on any other lives? And you were a 'Buddhist' monk? Doubt it. Go study dependent-origination again and tell me how we are somehow separate from the issues of other human beings again...

We were all having a chat, and you have gotten a little excited, take some deep breaths until you get over the urge to scroll through the forums seeking an argument.

As I said, not every person can attend a Wat, a great deal of people communicate with monks now online when in need of advice and help.

The typical retort of someone with no response to various comments. 'You are just mad, you should go calm down.'

It is incredible how you are able to decipher someone's emotional state by merely reading words on a screen... perhaps you only know your own emotional state?

Communicating online is one thing, as you can reach many people. How many people can you reach at one time with a cell phone?

[muythai2013]

SMOKING

Smoking is the habit of inhaling the smoke of smouldering tobacco leaves either by means of cigarettes or pipes. Tobacco was unknown in ancient India but people did inhale smoke for medical and recreational purposes. According to the Suśruta Cikitsā, an ancient treatise on medicine, inhaling smoke is good as a purgative, a cure for tiredness, depression, throat and nose problems and is also beneficial for pregnant women. Certain herbs were burned and the smoke sniffed in through a small metal tube (dhūmanetti). The Buddha subscribed to this kind of smoke therapy and allowed monks and nuns to have smoking tubes (Vin.I,204), although some people apparently considered them to be a luxury (Ja.IV,363).

Cigarettes (dhūmavaṭṭi) smoked for enjoyment were made by grinding cardamom, saffron, sandalwood and aloe wood into a fine paste and moulding it over a reed so that it was about 15 centimetres long and with the thickness of a thumb. When the paste was dry, the reed was removed and the resulting cigarette was smeared with clarified butter or sandalwood oil before being ignited. These cigarettes were probably far less harmful than the modern ones. Another ancient medical work, the Caraka Saṃhitā, recommends sitting in an upright but comfortable posture while smoking, taking three puffs at a time and inhaling through both the mouth and nostrils but exhaling only through nostrils.

While smoking has a very negative effect on the body, it has little or no effect on consciousness and thus, from the Buddhist perspective, has no moral significance. A person can be kind, generous and honest and yet smoke. Thus, although smoking is inadvisable from the point of view of physical health it is not contrary to the fifth Precept.

Smoking is very common in all Buddhists lands although in 2005 Bhutan was the first country in the world to ban it. In Burma, Thailand and Cambodia monks commonly smoke, but in Sri Lanka it is considered unacceptable for them to do so, although it is often done in private. However, Sri Lankan monks are allowed to chew tobacco.

[iTravelNow]

[....]

Money may be given to the monks, but it is not meant for the monks. Again, monks should only have 4 maximum possessions, 3 of those being a robe and one a begging bowl. The whole alms tradition in Thailand has become tainted due to few awakened teachers residing in this country. The society of Thailand has embraced the idea of an elevated stature for monks and the Sangha (which is not the four-fold Sangha taught by Buddha, by the way) to the point that all males are expected to be a monk at some point in their life to make themselves look better. It has been corrupted for generations now; I'm surprised when I see teachers like Ajahn Chah arise from these conditions, until I remember the lotus arises from mud and the Dhamma can never be destroyed.

Thanks @atlbravosfan for the nice reading.

I lived in SE Asia 30 years ago and came back a few months ago to resettle. 30 years ago I turned Buddhist myself. But coming back here I was shocked to see the changes that occurred. Buddhism, I fear, is on the decline - at least in some locations. When I see how some people practice offerings in the morning, I then must believe that this is just ritual and habit than serving the true purpose. One picture stays so clear in my mind that comes from an observation.

"A person was sitting at his breakfast at a food stall. When "suddenly" three very young novice monks (children aged about 8-10) passed. The guy jumped up, grabbed his walled from the pocket, took out 20 and 50 THB and stuffed it into the begging bowl. He didn't bow, didn't take of his shoes, didn't fold his palm - nothing. The second shocking part was that he did this toward children. This guy has just done wrong anything.

Another observation and comparison I made is that monks are coming by Tuck-Tuck to locations where they can get the most of donations and food. Other monks just "roam" the streets and do not wander anymore.

Sade development.

But I do have to admit, that I also have seeing good examples. One elder monk had on day about 10 novice monks behind him. The where all walking slowly in line, eyes down, and holding the begging bowl properly (not under the left arm like a file). One monk even told a person who wanted to offer money not to do so. That gave me hope that there could be a movement among some Monks that practice the true teaching and live up to it.

As for giving money, in my times here I was told to put money into an envelop and hand that over to the monk. Monks should not see how much money is given as this is not important. If you see how much money is given to you this could "corrupt" you and you could be tempted in not being contented with what is given. Woman should give the money in an envelop and put it on a plat or towel. Woman should not have a physical contact with a monk so lust is not developed.

Just my 2c.

Edited May 27, 2013 by iTravelNow

[atlbravosfan]

I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness."

Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.

only thing really written about drugs in the tipitaka.

Well, going by your definition, I guess smoking yaba and shooting up heroin are ok? Neither of those are a 'fermented drink that causes heedlessness.'

[rubberduck]

I can't understand why at some temples. There are carports and Mercs and high end Toyota saloons parked next to a monks dwelling.

Maybe read this topic all over again ?

[atlbravosfan]

SMOKING

Smoking is the habit of inhaling the smoke of smouldering tobacco leaves either by means of cigarettes or pipes. Tobacco was unknown in ancient India but people did inhale smoke for medical and recreational purposes. According to the Suśruta Cikitsā, an ancient treatise on medicine, inhaling smoke is good as a purgative, a cure for tiredness, depression, throat and nose problems and is also beneficial for pregnant women. Certain herbs were burned and the smoke sniffed in through a small metal tube (dhūmanetti). The Buddha subscribed to this kind of smoke therapy and allowed monks and nuns to have smoking tubes (Vin.I,204), although some people apparently considered them to be a luxury (Ja.IV,363).

Cigarettes (dhūmavaṭṭi) smoked for enjoyment were made by grinding cardamom, saffron, sandalwood and aloe wood into a fine paste and moulding it over a reed so that it was about 15 centimetres long and with the thickness of a thumb. When the paste was dry, the reed was removed and the resulting cigarette was smeared with clarified butter or sandalwood oil before being ignited. These cigarettes were probably far less harmful than the modern ones. Another ancient medical work, the Caraka Saṃhitā, recommends sitting in an upright but comfortable posture while smoking, taking three puffs at a time and inhaling through both the mouth and nostrils but exhaling only through nostrils.

While smoking has a very negative effect on the body, it has little or no effect on consciousness and thus, from the Buddhist perspective, has no moral significance. A person can be kind, generous and honest and yet smoke. Thus, although smoking is inadvisable from the point of view of physical health it is not contrary to the fifth Precept.

Smoking is very common in all Buddhists lands although in 2005 Bhutan was the first country in the world to ban it. In Burma, Thailand and Cambodia monks commonly smoke, but in Sri Lanka it is considered unacceptable for them to do so, although it is often done in private. However, Sri Lankan monks are allowed to chew tobacco.

So Buddha allowed smoking for medicinal benefits... what medicinal benefits are derived from smoking tobacco? Especially highly processed cigarettes filled with any number of additives?

It's interesting that you think 'little effect on consciousness' doesn't matter. 'Drop by drop the fool fills his bucket.' Every sense-impression, every experience, is slightly altering your consciousness. Every act you commit with your mind matters, especially ones of habit and addiction.

[muythai2013]

And you mean to tell me that all the purchases globally has no impact on jobs anywhere or worker's wages? Wages just were handed down out of the sky and none of our actions has any impact on any other lives? And you were a 'Buddhist' monk? Doubt it. Go study dependent-origination again and tell me how we are somehow separate from the issues of other human beings again...

We were all having a chat, and you have gotten a little excited, take some deep breaths until you get over the urge to scroll through the forums seeking an argument.

As I said, not every person can attend a Wat, a great deal of people communicate with monks now online when in need of advice and help.

The typical retort of someone with no response to various comments. 'You are just mad, you should go calm down.'

It is incredible how you are able to decipher someone's emotional state by merely reading words on a screen... perhaps you only know your own emotional state?

Communicating online is one thing, as you can reach many people. How many people can you reach at one time with a cell phone?

It does not take a genius to know when a man is upset, you have been trying to pick apart every post I have made.

And you say I have no answer, answer to what, lol.

how many people can you reach on a phone,1 is enough when they call you in dire straights, monks are the ones who often must deal with a suicidal individual on the phone, is that one call enough.

[atlbravosfan]

[....]

Money may be given to the monks, but it is not meant for the monks. Again, monks should only have 4 maximum possessions, 3 of those being a robe and one a begging bowl. The whole alms tradition in Thailand has become tainted due to few awakened teachers residing in this country. The society of Thailand has embraced the idea of an elevated stature for monks and the Sangha (which is not the four-fold Sangha taught by Buddha, by the way) to the point that all males are expected to be a monk at some point in their life to make themselves look better. It has been corrupted for generations now; I'm surprised when I see teachers like Ajahn Chah arise from these conditions, until I remember the lotus arises from mud and the Dhamma can never be destroyed.

Thanks @atlbravosfan for the nice reading.

I lived in SE Asia 30 years ago and came back a few months ago to resettle. 30 years ago I turned Buddhist myself. But coming back here I was shocked to see the changes that occurred. Buddhism, I fear, is on the decline - at least in some locations. When I see how some people practice offerings in the morning, I then must believe that this is just ritual and habit than serving the true purpose. One picture stays so clear in my mind that comes from an observation.

"A person was sitting at his breakfast at a food stall. When "suddenly" three very young novice monks (children aged about 8-10) passed. The guy jumped up, grabbed his walled from the pocket, took out 20 and 50 THB and stuffed it into the begging bowl. He didn't bow, didn't take of his shoes, didn't fold his palm - nothing. The second shocking part was that he did this toward children. This guy has just done wrong anything.

Another observation and comparison I made is that monks are coming by Tuck-Tuck to locations where they can get the most of donations and food. Other monks just "roam" the streets and do not wander anymore.

Sade development.

But I do have to admit, that I also have seeing good examples. One elder monk had on day about 10 novice monks behind him. The where all walking slowly in line, eyes down, and holding the begging bowl properly (not under the left arm like a file). One monk even told a person who wanted to offer money not to do so. That gave me hope that there could be a movement among some Monks that practice the true teaching and live up to it.

Just my 2c.

Yeah, it's nice to have these conversations, even when there is disagreement. Hopefully we can all come back into accord.

There is also an older monk who begs near my house. He is always very diligent, each step is very mindful and peaceful. He is only stepping, not talking to someone else, not playing or fidgeting. If you want to talk to someone, you should stop walking so as to give you full attention to each thing you do. It might take longer to perform tasks but it is definitely worth it.

It's also funny that you mention coming over here and being shocked... coming from America, being Buddhist, my friends and I wanted to go somewhere and see what Buddhism was like, what we wanted American Buddhism to be like. We learned a lot more about what we don't want American Buddhism to be. I think, like where we come from, most people are born into a religious tradition and never really dive deeper into it... they never question a lot of the traditions they were handed. They follow it 'just because.'

[muythai2013]

I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness."

Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.

only thing really written about drugs in the tipitaka.

Well, going by your definition, I guess smoking yaba and shooting up heroin are ok? Neither of those are a 'fermented drink that causes heedlessness.'

I'm sorry, what was my definition, my definition is not yet posted so please tell me what it is as you just said judging by my definition.

[greg71]

SMOKING

Smoking is the habit of inhaling the smoke of smouldering tobacco leaves either by means of cigarettes or pipes. Tobacco was unknown in ancient India but people did inhale smoke for medical and recreational purposes. According to the Suśruta Cikitsā, an ancient treatise on medicine, inhaling smoke is good as a purgative, a cure for tiredness, depression, throat and nose problems and is also beneficial for pregnant women. Certain herbs were burned and the smoke sniffed in through a small metal tube (dhūmanetti). The Buddha subscribed to this kind of smoke therapy and allowed monks and nuns to have smoking tubes (Vin.I,204), although some people apparently considered them to be a luxury (Ja.IV,363).

Cigarettes (dhūmavaṭṭi) smoked for enjoyment were made by grinding cardamom, saffron, sandalwood and aloe wood into a fine paste and moulding it over a reed so that it was about 15 centimetres long and with the thickness of a thumb. When the paste was dry, the reed was removed and the resulting cigarette was smeared with clarified butter or sandalwood oil before being ignited. These cigarettes were probably far less harmful than the modern ones. Another ancient medical work, the Caraka Saṃhitā, recommends sitting in an upright but comfortable posture while smoking, taking three puffs at a time and inhaling through both the mouth and nostrils but exhaling only through nostrils.

While smoking has a very negative effect on the body, it has little or no effect on consciousness and thus, from the Buddhist perspective, has no moral significance. A person can be kind, generous and honest and yet smoke. Thus, although smoking is inadvisable from the point of view of physical health it is not contrary to the fifth Precept.

Smoking is very common in all Buddhists lands although in 2005 Bhutan was the first country in the world to ban it. In Burma, Thailand and Cambodia monks commonly smoke, but in Sri Lanka it is considered unacceptable for them to do so, although it is often done in private. However, Sri Lankan monks are allowed to chew tobacco.

So a big healthy bong is ok then ?Ah smoke therapy lol

[muythai2013]

SMOKING

Smoking is the habit of inhaling the smoke of smouldering tobacco leaves either by means of cigarettes or pipes. Tobacco was unknown in ancient India but people did inhale smoke for medical and recreational purposes. According to the Suśruta Cikitsā, an ancient treatise on medicine, inhaling smoke is good as a purgative, a cure for tiredness, depression, throat and nose problems and is also beneficial for pregnant women. Certain herbs were burned and the smoke sniffed in through a small metal tube (dhūmanetti). The Buddha subscribed to this kind of smoke therapy and allowed monks and nuns to have smoking tubes (Vin.I,204), although some people apparently considered them to be a luxury (Ja.IV,363).

Cigarettes (dhūmavaṭṭi) smoked for enjoyment were made by grinding cardamom, saffron, sandalwood and aloe wood into a fine paste and moulding it over a reed so that it was about 15 centimetres long and with the thickness of a thumb. When the paste was dry, the reed was removed and the resulting cigarette was smeared with clarified butter or sandalwood oil before being ignited. These cigarettes were probably far less harmful than the modern ones. Another ancient medical work, the Caraka Saṃhitā, recommends sitting in an upright but comfortable posture while smoking, taking three puffs at a time and inhaling through both the mouth and nostrils but exhaling only through nostrils.

While smoking has a very negative effect on the body, it has little or no effect on consciousness and thus, from the Buddhist perspective, has no moral significance. A person can be kind, generous and honest and yet smoke. Thus, although smoking is inadvisable from the point of view of physical health it is not contrary to the fifth Precept.

Smoking is very common in all Buddhists lands although in 2005 Bhutan was the first country in the world to ban it. In Burma, Thailand and Cambodia monks commonly smoke, but in Sri Lanka it is considered unacceptable for them to do so, although it is often done in private. However, Sri Lankan monks are allowed to chew tobacco.

So a big healthy bong is ok then ?Ah smoke therapy lol

nothing that affects clear thought

[TechnikaIII]

I didn't know monks got paid, I naively thought the donations were for the temple and not the personal pockets of its monks...

Based on my observations, the reactions of my girlfriend to some news involving monks, and now this forum, I learned since I arrived in Thailand that it's perfectly acceptable for a monk to

- own (a lot) of wealth

- gamble (sometimes huge amounts)

- smoke

- own and wear luxury items

- become a loan shark

- eat meat and sea food

- ?

On the other hand, using another drug than cigarettes and especially having sex is a big NO. Amazing thailand.

Correction: Being CAUGHT using a drug other than cigarettes and especially having sex is a big no.

[atlbravosfan]

And you mean to tell me that all the purchases globally has no impact on jobs anywhere or worker's wages? Wages just were handed down out of the sky and none of our actions has any impact on any other lives? And you were a 'Buddhist' monk? Doubt it. Go study dependent-origination again and tell me how we are somehow separate from the issues of other human beings again...

We were all having a chat, and you have gotten a little excited, take some deep breaths until you get over the urge to scroll through the forums seeking an argument.

As I said, not every person can attend a Wat, a great deal of people communicate with monks now online when in need of advice and help.

The typical retort of someone with no response to various comments. 'You are just mad, you should go calm down.'

It is incredible how you are able to decipher someone's emotional state by merely reading words on a screen... perhaps you only know your own emotional state?

Communicating online is one thing, as you can reach many people. How many people can you reach at one time with a cell phone?

It does not take a genius to know when a man is upset, you have been trying to pick apart every post I have made.

And you say I have no answer, answer to what, lol.

how many people can you reach on a phone,1 is enough when they call you in dire straights, monks are the ones who often must deal with a suicidal individual on the phone, is that one call enough.

It won't let me multi-reply, so I'll have to respond two times...

So because I disagree with things you say, I am automatically upset? I have actually agreed with things you posted in my intial post, and I actually agree with something you posted here. Judging is a source of defilement, we shouldn't assume to know another's emotional state. You don't see me telling you that you are upset and should breath easy because you disagree with me. Intellectual disagreements are quite common.

I have pointed out several flaws in your argument, especially in my first post.

Now, regarding the phone, that is indeed a good and valuable use of a telephone to reach one person. Now, I must ask you, are suicides that high that so many monks need phones? Is this some new development that the suicide rate has jumped in recent years?

Would it not be better for everyone if there were not some suicide helpline that anyone could call at any time to ask for help? Imagine, that hotline could be operated by non-monks, reducing the need for monks to have excess possessions? Not to mention, most of the monks who have phones, have pretty nice phones... why not just get the cheapest model available if

all you are using it for is to help prevent suicides?

[Kananga]

My wife used to think it was a necessary part of being 'Thai' to occasionally go to the temple and give food to the monks etc. I begrudgingly went along with it in order to keep the peace, but the last time we went half way through the handing over of food I paid for etc the monk in question whipped out a nice smartphone to take a call. It was at that point that I said enough is enough.

After a few thought invoking conversations with my wife such as 'If they decide of their own free will not to work, surely they could spend some of that time growing their own food for their own consumption instead of 'begging' off hardworking people every morning. I used the trappist monks as an example of a self sufficient spiritual lifestyle. He initial defence of visiting the monks will bring you luck was shot down when I asked how come in Europe where practically zero people practice buddhism the general population was considerably better off than the average Thai. Why are they getting all the luck when the Thais are the ones handing over food and money to these organised beggars? That spun her out for a while but she eventually came round. She has now 'seen the light' so to speak and wont give them the time of day, let alone free food and money.

It will be slower than in the West due to less critical thinking but with the advent of social media etc religion in Thailand will soon start making a slow yet steady decline into the oblivion it should already be in.

Atheists - 1

Religious <deleted> - 0

[atlbravosfan]

I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness."

Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.

only thing really written about drugs in the tipitaka.

Well, going by your definition, I guess smoking yaba and shooting up heroin are ok? Neither of those are a 'fermented drink that causes heedlessness.'

I'm sorry, what was my definition, my definition is not yet posted so please tell me what it is as you just said judging by my definition.

It seems like you are taking your definition from the literal translation, so I was asking, if we are going by the literal translation and nothing else, are those other substances now alright? If not, why not?

I see you have since stated: nothing that affects clear thought.

What is 'clear thought?' It is the prestine origin, our true nature. If you don't think people smoke cigs because of the feelings that ensue, because of their own addiction in some instances, because of a want to fit in sometimes, you are definitely kidding yourself. There is nothing positive about smoking cigs and the need to continue smoking them is, in essence, part of the problem blocking our 'clear thought.'

[atlbravosfan]

My wife used to think it was a necessary part of being 'Thai' to occasionally go to the temple and give food to the monks etc. I begrudgingly went along with it in order to keep the peace, but the last time we went half way through the handing over of food I paid for etc the monk in question whipped out a nice smartphone to take a call. It was at that point that I said enough is enough.

After a few thought invoking conversations with my wife such as 'If they decide of their own free will not to work, surely they could spend some of that time growing their own food for their own consumption instead of 'begging' off hardworking people every morning. I used the trappist monks as an example of a self sufficient spiritual lifestyle. He initial defence of visiting the monks will bring you luck was shot down when I asked how come in Europe where practically zero people practice buddhism the general population was considerably better off than the average Thai. Why are they getting all the luck when the Thais are the ones handing over food and money to these organised beggars? That spun her out for a while but she eventually came round. She has now 'seen the light' so to speak and wont give them the time of day, let alone free food and money.

It will be slower than in the West due to less critical thinking but with the advent of social media etc religion in Thailand will soon start making a slow yet steady decline into the oblivion it should already be in.

Atheists - 1

Religious <deleted> - 0

First of all, Buddhism is largely atheist, so maybe you want to adjust your score a little.

Second of all, Buddha forbade monks from growing their own food so that they will have more opportunities to engage the populace in the practical teachings.

[Kananga]

My wife used to think it was a necessary part of being 'Thai' to occasionally go to the temple and give food to the monks etc. I begrudgingly went along with it in order to keep the peace, but the last time we went half way through the handing over of food I paid for etc the monk in question whipped out a nice smartphone to take a call. It was at that point that I said enough is enough.

After a few thought invoking conversations with my wife such as 'If they decide of their own free will not to work, surely they could spend some of that time growing their own food for their own consumption instead of 'begging' off hardworking people every morning. I used the trappist monks as an example of a self sufficient spiritual lifestyle. He initial defence of visiting the monks will bring you luck was shot down when I asked how come in Europe where practically zero people practice buddhism the general population was considerably better off than the average Thai. Why are they getting all the luck when the Thais are the ones handing over food and money to these organised beggars? That spun her out for a while but she eventually came round. She has now 'seen the light' so to speak and wont give them the time of day, let alone free food and money.

It will be slower than in the West due to less critical thinking but with the advent of social media etc religion in Thailand will soon start making a slow yet steady decline into the oblivion it should already be in.

Atheists - 1

Religious <deleted> - 0

First of all, Buddhism is largely atheist, so maybe you want to adjust your score a little.

Second of all, Buddha forbade monks from growing their own food so that they will have more opportunities to engage the populace in the practical teachings.

Good point

Believers in science - 1

Atheists who believe in naive, petitionary and superstitious trappings - 0

Did buddha forbade monks from having sexual relationships so they would have more opportunities to engage the populace in the 'practical' teachings too? LOL.

Forbidding people to be self sufficient eh? Sounds like the actions of a possessive cult leader to me.

[bangon04]

According to my Thai-Neighbors: There are traditional Thai-Temples and "Business-Temples". As to "why and how come" was explained to me, but to quote this here would clearly violate forum rules.

Unfortunately.

Cheers.

Some Temples and Monks are fronts for unscrupulous business activities.

They are untouchable, know it and exploit their position.

Imagine that.

Sounds like the Royal Thai police station.

Nothing spoils a good religion quicker than human beings...

Edited May 27, 2013 by bangon04

[bangon04]

My wife used to think it was a necessary part of being 'Thai' to occasionally go to the temple and give food to the monks etc. I begrudgingly went along with it in order to keep the peace, but the last time we went half way through the handing over of food I paid for etc the monk in question whipped out a nice smartphone to take a call. It was at that point that I said enough is enough.

After a few thought invoking conversations with my wife such as 'If they decide of their own free will not to work, surely they could spend some of that time growing their own food for their own consumption instead of 'begging' off hardworking people every morning. I used the trappist monks as an example of a self sufficient spiritual lifestyle. He initial defence of visiting the monks will bring you luck was shot down when I asked how come in Europe where practically zero people practice buddhism the general population was considerably better off than the average Thai. Why are they getting all the luck when the Thais are the ones handing over food and money to these organised beggars? That spun her out for a while but she eventually came round. She has now 'seen the light' so to speak and wont give them the time of day, let alone free food and money.

It will be slower than in the West due to less critical thinking but with the advent of social media etc religion in Thailand will soon start making a slow yet steady decline into the oblivion it should already be in.

It seems to me that one of the reasons that even poor Thais will donate their hard-earned to the temple is that the monks have given up their normal lives to take on the burden of a pious frugal ascetic life on behalf of the general population. So giving to monks absolves people from making the effort themselves. Of course it is often the way in Thailand that making merit in public is more important than the inner contemplation, so it turns into a lucrative career for members of the Theravada corporation.

[Kananga]

My wife used to think it was a necessary part of being 'Thai' to occasionally go to the temple and give food to the monks etc. I begrudgingly went along with it in order to keep the peace, but the last time we went half way through the handing over of food I paid for etc the monk in question whipped out a nice smartphone to take a call. It was at that point that I said enough is enough.

After a few thought invoking conversations with my wife such as 'If they decide of their own free will not to work, surely they could spend some of that time growing their own food for their own consumption instead of 'begging' off hardworking people every morning. I used the trappist monks as an example of a self sufficient spiritual lifestyle. He initial defence of visiting the monks will bring you luck was shot down when I asked how come in Europe where practically zero people practice buddhism the general population was considerably better off than the average Thai. Why are they getting all the luck when the Thais are the ones handing over food and money to these organised beggars? That spun her out for a while but she eventually came round. She has now 'seen the light' so to speak and wont give them the time of day, let alone free food and money.

It will be slower than in the West due to less critical thinking but with the advent of social media etc religion in Thailand will soon start making a slow yet steady decline into the oblivion it should already be in.

It seems to me that one of the reasons that even poor Thais will donate their hard-earned to the temple is that the monks have given up their normal lives to take on the burden of a pious frugal ascetic life on behalf of the general population. So giving to monks absolves people from making the effort themselves. Of course it is often the way in Thailand that making merit in public is more important than the inner contemplation, so it turns into a lucrative career for members of the Theravada corporation.

True, but the point still remains that its their choice to take on this burden. Getting free room and board as well as a free daily buffet (of meat) and so it would seem money as well hardly makes for a pious frugal ascetic lifestyle. I'm sure a great many of the hard working general populace live a more frugal and considerably harder lifestyle than those they blindly support.

[sustento]

Some nice insights

Thai Buddhist monks defrocked over sex, drugs and alcohol

The Crisis in Thai Buddhism

That Telegraph article is 13 years old.

[Fullstop]

Ask your brother in law.

[fabianfred]

My wife used to think it was a necessary part of being 'Thai' to occasionally go to the temple and give food to the monks etc. I begrudgingly went along with it in order to keep the peace, but the last time we went half way through the handing over of food I paid for etc the monk in question whipped out a nice smartphone to take a call. It was at that point that I said enough is enough.

After a few thought invoking conversations with my wife such as 'If they decide of their own free will not to work, surely they could spend some of that time growing their own food for their own consumption instead of 'begging' off hardworking people every morning. I used the trappist monks as an example of a self sufficient spiritual lifestyle. He initial defence of visiting the monks will bring you luck was shot down when I asked how come in Europe where practically zero people practice buddhism the general population was considerably better off than the average Thai. Why are they getting all the luck when the Thais are the ones handing over food and money to these organised beggars? That spun her out for a while but she eventually came round. She has now 'seen the light' so to speak and wont give them the time of day, let alone free food and money.

It will be slower than in the West due to less critical thinking but with the advent of social media etc religion in Thailand will soon start making a slow yet steady decline into the oblivion it should already be in.

Atheists - 1

Religious <deleted> - 0

congratulations..... you are an example of what the Buddha referred to as a person of bad influence. To keep company with a person of bad influence is the most dangerous thing, because they will lead you astray down the wrong path. You have succeeded in leading your wife astray, because of your own lack of understanding about Buddhism.

She, as many Thais, have a shallow and often incorrect understanding too... but she might have learned the truth, until you misdirected her away completely.

I feel sorry for you and the suffering you will receive as a result of the law of karma, which none can avoid.

A monk is forbidden to dig the soil or damage plants...therefore he cannot grow his own food....or even cook uncooked food.

He is only supposed to receive food which is ready to eat. By being completely dependant upon the lay people he should not be lazy about going out on alms-round, to show himself and be an example.

Monks who are too lazy to go on alms-round because lay people bring offering into the temple, often the abbots of the temples are like this, are doing the people a disservice. When receiving his alms-bowl during ordination, a monk is advised that it is his duty to go out on alms-round daily.

He cannot store food and anything left after midday should be given away.

The Thai lay followers who give offerings to monks are doing so out of respect for a one who should be trying to live the homeless life as the Buddha advised, keeping strict precepts, and giving up many of the ordinary pleasures people enjoy.

If the monk is not worthy of this respect because he is not living correctly, that is his own bad karma, and if his actions cause a person to lose respect for the Sangha or even Buddhism as a whole then he is in great danger.

[fabianfred]

Monks should never ask for money, or any kind of donations, apart from a relative if his alms bowl or robes are too badly damaged to use and need replacement.

They should be content with whatever is given if anything, otherwise they are not real monks.

[HeavyDrinker]

Fabianfred, I think you're the one with a flawed understanding of how Buddhism works in Thailand...

Not even they take it as literally as you do.

If you think Monks here never ask for anything, you can't have met many.

I'd also love to see where Buddha called Kananga an example of a person of bad influence...I never knew they'd met.

[Kananga]

My wife used to think it was a necessary part of being 'Thai' to occasionally go to the temple and give food to the monks etc. I begrudgingly went along with it in order to keep the peace, but the last time we went half way through the handing over of food I paid for etc the monk in question whipped out a nice smartphone to take a call. It was at that point that I said enough is enough.

After a few thought invoking conversations with my wife such as 'If they decide of their own free will not to work, surely they could spend some of that time growing their own food for their own consumption instead of 'begging' off hardworking people every morning. I used the trappist monks as an example of a self sufficient spiritual lifestyle. He initial defence of visiting the monks will bring you luck was shot down when I asked how come in Europe where practically zero people practice buddhism the general population was considerably better off than the average Thai. Why are they getting all the luck when the Thais are the ones handing over food and money to these organised beggars? That spun her out for a while but she eventually came round. She has now 'seen the light' so to speak and wont give them the time of day, let alone free food and money.

It will be slower than in the West due to less critical thinking but with the advent of social media etc religion in Thailand will soon start making a slow yet steady decline into the oblivion it should already be in.

Atheists - 1

Religious <deleted> - 0

congratulations..... you are an example of what the Buddha referred to as a person of bad influence. To keep company with a person of bad influence is the most dangerous thing, because they will lead you astray down the wrong path. You have succeeded in leading your wife astray, because of your own lack of understanding about Buddhism.

She, as many Thais, have a shallow and often incorrect understanding too... but she might have learned the truth, until you misdirected her away completely.

I feel sorry for you and the suffering you will receive as a result of the law of karma, which none can avoid.

A monk is forbidden to dig the soil or damage plants...therefore he cannot grow his own food....or even cook uncooked food.

He is only supposed to receive food which is ready to eat. By being completely dependant upon the lay people he should not be lazy about going out on alms-round, to show himself and be an example.

Monks who are too lazy to go on alms-round because lay people bring offering into the temple, often the abbots of the temples are like this, are doing the people a disservice. When receiving his alms-bowl during ordination, a monk is advised that it is his duty to go out on alms-round daily.

He cannot store food and anything left after midday should be given away.

The Thai lay followers who give offerings to monks are doing so out of respect for a one who should be trying to live the homeless life as the Buddha advised, keeping strict precepts, and giving up many of the ordinary pleasures people enjoy.

If the monk is not worthy of this respect because he is not living correctly, that is his own bad karma, and if his actions cause a person to lose respect for the Sangha or even Buddhism as a whole then he is in great danger.

Two points I should mention. I suggested to my wife that instead of blindly giving food and money to people who have cosen to avoid a life where they have to work and be self sufficient she could instead devote any surplus food or money to the many homeless people who are in a desperate situation often through no choice of their own. She now does this because it is the right thing to do, not because of some misplaced self serving effort to 'make merit' or some other self serving selfish action. For the majority of people in the world this change in action would lead one to believe they are actually now following a better path where offerings to people who need them have no self serving agenda and are done out of nothing more than a desire to do some good in the world and help people less fortunate with no expectations of reward.

Secondly, 'karma' is no more real than santa claus. A superstitious belief used to keep people who lack a moral compass in line to do good things because they dont have the strength to do good things without having the fear that bad things will happen to them if they don't.

My wife may have a lack of understanding about 'real buddhism', however you clearly have a lack of understanding of reality and separating fact from fiction. Karma indeed, dear oh dear.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Kananga

[fabianfred]

I do not say they do not ask...I say they should not ask. I was ordained for two years.