Is It Better To Lie Than Confront In Thailand?

[Ringmybells]

My neighbor was excited to help my husband watch our twins for a few hours a day for 4 days while I was in bangkok getting my Malaysia visa. We only needed her help in the afternoon after school hence, a few hours only! Since I was new in Thailand I didn't know what a fair wage was so I asked her how much I should pay her. She said whatever I wanted to pay her. I asked around, my Thai friend said she pays her live-in maid 5,500 baht/mo so 1500 baht should be a fair wage for 4 days and only about 3 hours a day. I made an offer of 1500 baht, my next door neighbor readily accepted. I asked her twice if she is happy with my offer her answer was 'YES' both times.

A week before I left for bangkok I went and chatted with her. I told her how happy I was that she would help my husband watch the kids during my absence. Her response was, 'oh I can't I go Bangkok'. Then I asked her why she didn't tell me as soon as she knew the changes in her plan. Again, her response was 'I go bangkok, my daughter go too, she work Bangkok'. I got a little upset and stressed out but I tried to appear pleasant and I didn't say a thing more. I got busy finding a new helper. I found one who wasn't so shy so she asked 3000 baht for 4 days about 3 hours each day. I felt she was asking way too much but I knew she was good with kids so I pay anyway. Everything went well and I paid her 3000 baht as soon as I returned from Bangkok.

Back to my next door neighbor. A few days before I left for Bangkok I asked her if she was going to fly/drive/train? She said she was flying. 'What time is your flight'? I asked. '10 AM'. She answered. 'Oh bummer' I said, 'Mine is at 2 otherwise, we could ride together to the airport'. Yes', she said. One day before I left for Bangkok, I asked her, 'So you are excited to go to Bangkok'? 'No, I wait my mother to call', 'oh so if your mother didn't call you wouldn't go'? 'Yes' She said.

When I came back from Bangkok I found out that neither she or her daughter ever left their house for the whole week I was in Bangkok. I asked my friend if it is possible that my next door neigbor lied to me about the whole Bangkok trip, my Thai friend said 'YES'. She said she actually knew right from the begining that there is no such thing as a trip to Bangkok. She said that it was quite possible that she wasn't happy with the 1500 baht I offered her.

'Then why didn't she ask for more', I said.

'Because that is not Thai way', my friend said.

'So she rather lie to me than tell me she needed/wanted more money'? I asked.

My friend said, 'yes, that's just Thai way and you have to get used to it if you plan to live with Thai people.

I feel that white lies are ok, like, when someone gives you a gift and you say you like it even when you don't like it but when people you rely and depend on lie to you it is a big problem and such a turn off.

[norrona]

This goes well with the 'loss of face' thread....

Also isn't it strange that doing something that she said she would get pleasure from was spoiled by money? which leads me to think someone else gave their opinion that you are farang and have big money so why can't you pay her big money?

[Berkshire]

Firstly, are you even sure that money was the reason she backed out of the job?

Even if it was, I would think most people would be apprehensive about bringing up their dissatisfaction with the amount you were willing to pay. Not only do they not want to appear greedy, but they don't want to insult you by implying that you're cheap.

If you really didn't know the going rate, I myself would have guessed on the high side. But that's me.

[Ringmybells]

Firstly, are you even sure that money was the reason she backed out of the job?

Even if it was, I would think most people would be apprehensive about bringing up their dissatisfaction with the amount you were willing to pay. Not only do they not want to appear greedy, but they don't want to insult you by implying that you're cheap.

If you really didn't know the going rate, I myself would have guessed on the high side. But that's me.

If a live-in maid gets paid 5500/mo I thought 1500+dinner for four days, 3 hours each day is on the high side. I also asked a few Thais and they said that was a fine offer.

[simple1]

Why did you have to go to BKK for a visa to enter Malaysia?

[AnotherOneAmerican]

She didn't want to do it.

The kids were too much effort last time.

The BK trip fell through.

She wanted more money.

You will never know the truth so why worry, Thai's rarely like to say no, easier to lie.

Edited May 29, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Berkshire]

Firstly, are you even sure that money was the reason she backed out of the job?

Even if it was, I would think most people would be apprehensive about bringing up their dissatisfaction with the amount you were willing to pay. Not only do they not want to appear greedy, but they don't want to insult you by implying that you're cheap.

If you really didn't know the going rate, I myself would have guessed on the high side. But that's me.

If a live-in maid gets paid 5500/mo I thought 1500+dinner for four days, 3 hours each day is on the high side. I also asked a few Thais and they said that was a fine offer.

Yeah, but the live-in gets free room and board.

So perhaps it wasn't the money. 1,500 doesn't sound too bad to me, but then, I'm no expert on such things.

[GuestHouse]

Think it a blessing that you have found out how dishonest this woman is before you left your children in her care.

[welsh1]

Thais are a little shy, when it comes to asking for more money.

What a load off Buffalo P@@,,,, they will soon let you know if enough, is not enough

[metisdead]

A non-helpful post has been removed as well as the replies.

[GuestHouse]

The idea that Thais have some cultural aversion to the truth can be tested by being caught out lying to a Thai person.

They may different perspective on how it should be presented but Thai people value the truth as much as the rest of us.

[seajae]

the base wage in Thailand is 300 baht a day so you offered her way over this and the other lady ripped you off big time , seems like your neighbours are simply rip off merchants and after what ever they can get, especially from a non thai.

Edited May 29, 2013 by metisdead
Overly large font reset to normal.

[rookball]

live in maid for 5500 per month. i bet your friend satangs have the size of cart wheels

[krisb]

Now your kee neow!...

[jambco984]

Daily wage is 300 baht. She worked for 4 days and 3 hours each day making 12 hours.

Thais work for 300 baht for possibly a 10 hour day so you paid above and beyond.

Thank her and forget her.

No point stressing.

[Sheryl]

She didn't want to do it.

The kids were too much effort last time.

The BK trip fell through.

She wanted more money.

You will never know the truth so why worry, Thai's rarely like to say no, easier to lie.

Exactly so.

There are any number of possible reasons why she couldn't do it or didn't want to, no point in trying to guess what they were, though indeed it might have been the money. What is pretty sure is that the reason was not the one she gave, which is very typical.

Lying under such circumstances is considered quite acceptable in Thai culture and considered preferrable to saying anything that might cause disappointment or inter-personnel friction. It doesn't cause as much confusion to Thais as it does to us since they start from the assumption that whatever reason is given is likely not true and that whatever promises are made may not be genuine. For us, used to working on opposite assumptions, it can be very confusing.

In Thai culture, the goal of any conversation or encounter is to maintain the outward appearance of harmony and to avoid loss of face for any of the participants. It can be quite frustrating since in the service of said goal, things may be done and said that will cause the people involved to have serious problems in the long run, but that's considered OK as long as they experience those problems in private and the interpersonal interaction went off smoothly.

What you have experienced is just the tip of the iceberg. Just wait until a workman takes off part of your roof and for some reason decides he can't continue the job but lies and tells you he is going out to buy supplies and will be right back (omitting all mention of the exposed roof) at the height of the rainy season... because it was thought better to let your house be flooded and have you deal with that than to face giving you bad (but nowhere as bad as that) news.

Happens all the time. You just have to get used to it, and remember that "yes" may actually be "no", promised appointments may not be kept etc etc.

As regards this woman, Thai norms require that you just act as if the whole thing never happened.

[Banzai99]

This goes well with the 'loss of face' thread....

Or it could go equally well in a thread about Farangs who can't speak Thai and misunderstand things Lost in Translation.

I'm sure the Thai woman was equally as confused as the OP.

[Birdman]

First of all: where? uptown Phuket or Suankhao Buri? You can use base wage for house construction, but not so for baby sitting at the neighbour...

Second: that is not considered as a lie in the way Western people would consider it, but typical Asian conflict avoiding management by not criticizing the action of others directly.

[norrona]

This goes well with the 'loss of face' thread....

Or it could go equally well in a thread about Farangs who can't speak Thai and misunderstand things Lost in Translation.

I'm sure the Thai woman was equally as confused as the OP.

confused?

yes I will help to look after your children for 4 days then maybe I go Bangkok then maybe not.....scooby doo seems less confused than this woman....

speak thai? they are like this with each other as far as I have seen anyway....got nothing to do with language and more to do with others having their say and pitching in with their opinions....probably because they were jealous about the 1500 baht!!!

[Kitsune]

As someone pointed out, just consider yourself lucky not to have given your children to someone dishonest.

I mean she had accepted the deal, and should have done the job just for once, to avoid putting you in trouble.

This is bad.

[Naam]

Firstly, are you even sure that money was the reason she backed out of the job?

Even if it was, I would think most people would be apprehensive about bringing up their dissatisfaction with the amount you were willing to pay. Not only do they not want to appear greedy, but they don't want to insult you by implying that you're cheap.

If you really didn't know the going rate, I myself would have guessed on the high side. But that's me.

If a live-in maid gets paid 5500/mo I thought 1500+dinner for four days, 3 hours each day is on the high side. I also asked a few Thais and they said that was a fine offer.

that's the rate a live-in illegal from Laos or Cambodia might get somewhere in the boonies. i have no idea where you live but i claim that no Thai maid/nanny will work for 5,500 Baht a month.

[Naam]

First of all: where? uptown Phuket or Suankhao Buri? You can use base wage for house construction, but not so for baby sitting at the neighbour...

Second: that is not considered as a lie in the way Western people would consider it, but typical Asian conflict avoiding management by not criticizing the action of others directly.

[muythai2013]

I don't have to get used to lying, if they lie I piss them off, friend or partner.

They have to get used to that.

[Birdman]

and that's why the word Farang became an invective over time since the last 20 years.

[NanLaew]

Why did you have to go to BKK for a visa to enter Malaysia?

Although NOT the subject of the topic, maybe, just maybe, the OP needs a Malaysian visa based on their nationality or purpose of the visit? I have needed a couple myself and I am a Brit.

Sheryl's response pretty much sums up the Thai mentality when it comes to excuses. It doesn't have to be the truth or anywhere near the truth. It doesn't need to have any basis in logic or reality, it doesn't even have to be credible or believable. Only someone who has been here a while, dealing with the locals extensively in business, work and/or relationships can appreciate this quirk of Thai culture. I would opine that government workers are simply sublime at conjuring up totally unfeasible and ridiculous reasons why a certain everyday, routine procedure should suddenly become hideously convoluted and impossible to achieve unless one comes back tomorrow.

Once you have been here a while, it's quite easy to come up with similarly bizarre excuses, become quite oblivious to the raised eyebrows they cause and happily invent some other totally unrelated happenstance to qualify (in your eyes anyway) the original fob off if it is being questioned. It's part of attaining Thai-ness IMHO.

[Ulysses G.]

She didn't want to do it.

The kids were too much effort last time.

The BK trip fell through.

She wanted more money.

You will never know the truth so why worry, Thai's rarely like to say no, easier to lie.

Exactly so.

There are any number of possible reasons why she couldn't do it or didn't want to, no point in trying to guess what they were, though indeed it might have been the money. What is pretty sure is that the reason was not the one she gave, which is very typical.

Lying under such circumstances is considered quite acceptable in Thai culture and considered preferrable to saying anything that might cause disappointment or inter-personnel friction. It doesn't cause as much confusion to Thais as it does to us since they start from the assumption that whatever reason is given is likely not true and that whatever promises are made may not be genuine. For us, used to working on opposite assumptions, it can be very confusing.

In Thai culture, the goal of any conversation or encounter is to maintain the outward appearance of harmony and to avoid loss of face for any of the participants. It can be quite frustrating since in the service of said goal, things may be done and said that will cause the people involved to have serious problems in the long run, but that's considered OK as long as they experience those problems in private and the interpersonal interaction went off smoothly.

What you have experienced is just the tip of the iceberg. Just wait until a workman takes off part of your roof and for some reason decides he can't continue the job but lies and tells you he is going out to buy supplies and will be right back (omitting all mention of the exposed roof) at the height of the rainy season... because it was thought better to let your house be flooded and have you deal with that than to face giving you bad (but nowhere as bad as that) news.

Happens all the time. You just have to get used to it, and remember that "yes" may actually be "no", promised appointments may not be kept etc etc.

As regards this woman, Thai norms require that you just act as if the whole thing never happened.

Excellent post. I gave up on trying to figure out why Thais do what they do long ago. I still rather live here than in the West

[yourauntbob]

You need to pick you battles. Sometimes i roll with the punches and other times i will call them out on it.

[NanLaew]

...like the punter who pulled out of renting the villa after three viewings, the deposit paid and just prior to the contract signing because, and I quote, "The swimming pool is the wrong shape." Absolutely bugger all to do with the fact that 40k a month was well outside their budget.

That was a farang btw. The Thai's are usually much less inventive, like his girlfriend further suggesting that "The beds were facing the wrong way."

Edited May 29, 2013 by NanLaew

[geriatrickid]

If one pays minimum wage for a nanny, don't be too surprised when the kids are fed chicken innards for a snack o dropped on their heads or play in the traffic.

What's one of the cardinal rules of Thailand? You get what you pay for.

[benalibina]

If one pays minimum wage for a nanny, don't be too surprised when the kids are fed chicken innards for a snack o dropped on their heads or play in the traffic.What's one of the cardinal rules of Thailand? You get what you pay for.

What a silly generalization.