Recording Phone Call - Legal/illegal

[Spartans]

Hi

I am having problem with one of my employee. She's basically compulsive liar. The problem is that we need evidence. Is it legal to record a phone call in Thailand? Will it stand in court, for example? Thanks for your help!

[breadbin]

Why don't you call a lawyer and ask them?

Surely they will know the law in Thailand a lot better than non Thai lawyers?

Just my thoughts.

Or, just sack the girl and save yourself the hassle, if you're that sure she's lying then no problems,

Or get a friend/ secret squirrel to call with specific questions and then you know what the answers are and what she had said,

Pretty simple in my eyes.

[Spartans]

If we sack the girl without cause that will stand in court, then we have to pay for 3 months salaries. Don't wanna give her that. So need an evidence. Figure probably I'll try this forum first in case others had similar experience, before calling a lawyer. Thanks, man.

[GuestHouse]

Cut your losses and pay her 3 months salary and go talk to the labour office who will be able to advise you on the best way to proceed.

Try to beat the system and it will bite you where it hurts.

[Beetlejuice]

Impossible to advise without having more details.

Lying about what? And what would recording your employee`s phone calls prove?

It is not permitted under the law to intrude into an employees or anyone else s private affairs, as only the police and certain Government officials have the authority to tap into a private individuals phone calls and personal emails. Of course companies are permitted to monitor company computer activities and calls on company phones if it is pertaining strictly to company business.

There are other alternatives such as perusing her facebook and social networking activities if trying to discover information about an individual.

[bangkokstick]

Give her 3 months salary for what, we are not in EU ! Even if she goes to the court (does she have to pay for this ?) and win you will never pay and then end of story. What else can she do ? When employees do not respect me I also do not respect them !

[homeownership]

I'm afraid I agree with the other posters on here. Cut your losses and pay the money.

No Court in any land would accept evidence gained by you intruding on a phone call. The authorities in some countries like the UK, can bug a phone and listen to its a phone call, but even they cannot use it in a Court of Law.

Do you really a think that a Non-Thai immigrant recording an Thai born employees phone conversation would be admissible in a Thai Court. I can save you lawyers fees straightaway. NO CHANCE !!!

In fact, they would probably arrest you for privacy related intrusion crime and you would spend a long time in a small space.

Drop it Son, pay the money and be careful who you hire next time.

[Spartans]

Thanks for the advices. I think we're going to need a lawyer. We're an NGO, and would need to manage our money tight. Her 3 months pay would be able to support some of our ground activities.

The thing is that her performance has been declining up to a point where she basically declined to work and intentionally delay her work process and influence other team member's work . And then she started to lie on what she discussed with her direct supervisor over the phones and what she described in emails. This happened repeatedly and created a lot of work-related problem.

The strange thing is that Thailand labour law still require us to pay separation pays if the termination of contract is due to her lack of performance.

Anyways, thanks.

[Beetlejuice]

Also to take into consideration, is the OP`s business completely legal and above board?

I mean, not included as a prohibited profession for farangs? Is the OP an official registered director or owner of the company? Work permits? Pays taxes? The employees are registered employees of the company and so on?

If the OP`s company is not absolutely squeaky clean, than any disputes with employees could prove disastrous.

I have noticed that the OP has taken a powder and gone quite. I usually do have a knack of ending threads with my direct questions. Be interesting to see if the OP response to any of my questions. They normally don`t when these issues arise.

[Stradavarius37]

Also to take into consideration, is the OP`s business completely legal and above board?

I mean, not included as a prohibited profession for farangs? Is the OP an official registered director or owner of the company? Work permits? Pays taxes? The employees are registered employees of the company and so on?

If the OP`s company is not absolutely squeaky clean, than any disputes with employees could prove disastrous.

I have noticed that the OP has taken a powder and gone quite. I usually do have a knack of ending threads with my direct questions. Be interesting to see if the OP response to any of my questions. They normally don`t when these issues arise.

He just posted 25 minutes ago - how is that "taking a powder" (whatever that means), exactly? I think that if the OP thinks he is going to get out of this without paying, he is foolish. Either separation pay, or lawyer fees - one way or another - he is going to pay.

[canman]

Thanks for the advices. I think we're going to need a lawyer. We're an NGO, and would need to manage our money tight. Her 3 months pay would be able to support some of our ground activities.

The thing is that her performance has been declining up to a point where she basically declined to work and intentionally delay her work process and influence other team member's work . And then she started to lie on what she discussed with her direct supervisor over the phones and what she described in emails. This happened repeatedly and created a lot of work-related problem.

The strange thing is that Thailand labour law still require us to pay separation pays if the termination of contract is due to her lack of performance.

Anyways, thanks.

One option available to you is to get her lies in emails from her. If she is lying to her direct supervisor on the phone, have the supervisor send her an email asking her to confirm what was said. You never know she may just be dumb enough to put the lies in writing.

You are correct to be wary of the labour court here as they are one of the few govenment institutions which seems to work and is not corrupt. They will fight an unfair dismissal and Thai labour laws do favour employees.

Edited May 31, 2013 by canman

[Spartans]

Also to take into consideration, is the OP`s business completely legal and above board?

I mean, not included as a prohibited profession for farangs? Is the OP an official registered director or owner of the company? Work permits? Pays taxes? The employees are registered employees of the company and so on?

If the OP`s company is not absolutely squeaky clean, than any disputes with employees could prove disastrous.

I have noticed that the OP has taken a powder and gone quite. I usually do have a knack of ending threads with my direct questions. Be interesting to see if the OP response to any of my questions. They normally don`t when these issues arise.

Hi, yeah. It is legal and above board. Not a prohibited profession for farang either. Work permits, taxes and everything is okay. We took extra measure in these and learned hard in the past. It is a growing NGO, so some governance structure is problematic but no legal issues in the organization.

But I agree with you. If we have to go to court, there always a chance where minor issues that were overlooked can be disastrous.

He just posted 25 minutes ago - how is that "taking a powder" (whatever that means), exactly? I think that if the OP thinks he is going to get out of this without paying, he is foolish. Either separation pay, or lawyer fees - one way or another - he is going to pay.

Correct. Not "taking a powder"...never heard that reference before actually. I think it is not only about avoiding paying separation pay, but also to set up example to other employees that they cannot just declined to do their work and get separation pays. But yes, it seems like in this situation, it is going to be a lawyer fee.

[Phronesis]

Create a new role for her doing something she hates.

[petedk]

Create a new role for her doing something she hates.

Yes... do it the Thai way. Move her to an inactive post.

[Beetlejuice]

Also to take into consideration, is the OP`s business completely legal and above board?

I mean, not included as a prohibited profession for farangs? Is the OP an official registered director or owner of the company? Work permits? Pays taxes? The employees are registered employees of the company and so on?

If the OP`s company is not absolutely squeaky clean, than any disputes with employees could prove disastrous.

I have noticed that the OP has taken a powder and gone quite. I usually do have a knack of ending threads with my direct questions. Be interesting to see if the OP response to any of my questions. They normally don`t when these issues arise.

Hi, yeah. It is legal and above board. Not a prohibited profession for farang either. Work permits, taxes and everything is okay. We took extra measure in these and learned hard in the past. It is a growing NGO, so some governance structure is problematic but no legal issues in the organization.

But I agree with you. If we have to go to court, there always a chance where minor issues that were overlooked can be disastrous.

>He just posted 25 minutes ago - how is that "taking a powder" (whatever that means), exactly? I think that if the OP thinks he is going to get out of this without paying, he is foolish. Either separation pay, or lawyer fees - one way or another - he is going to pay.

Correct. Not "taking a powder"...never heard that reference before actually. I think it is not only about avoiding paying separation pay, but also to set up example to other employees that they cannot just declined to do their work and get separation pays. But yes, it seems like in this situation, it is going to be a lawyer fee.

I gather what you mean by separation pay, is actually Severance pay. Same thing I suppose.

There is employee termination without cause and employee termination with cause and now you have explained, I fully understand why you are seeking some evidence against this employee.

If you feel that you have just cause to sack the said employment, that can also include having an attitude problem and poor working performance, you may have no need to pay severance pay.

Your problem is that you are placing yourself into a very precarious situation if each time you have unsuitable staff members, you are afraid to sack them, and there will be more of her sort in the future, I speak from experience, trust me on this one.

My advice is, sack this employee and do not offer any separation pay, on the grounds that the said employee has an attitude problem, poor working performance and is disruptive to the smooth running of the company for reasons you have already mentioned.

If you permit these sorts of staff behaviour to continue, show fear and pay monies in order to rid the company of unsuitable staff members, then your company will fail to be progressive and other staff members will also try it on.

Whatever you decide has to be up to your own discretion, but that’s my advice for what it`s worth.

[Spartans]

Also to take into consideration, is the OP`s business completely legal and above board?

I mean, not included as a prohibited profession for farangs? Is the OP an official registered director or owner of the company? Work permits? Pays taxes? The employees are registered employees of the company and so on?

If the OP`s company is not absolutely squeaky clean, than any disputes with employees could prove disastrous.

I have noticed that the OP has taken a powder and gone quite. I usually do have a knack of ending threads with my direct questions. Be interesting to see if the OP response to any of my questions. They normally don`t when these issues arise.

Hi, yeah. It is legal and above board. Not a prohibited profession for farang either. Work permits, taxes and everything is okay. We took extra measure in these and learned hard in the past. It is a growing NGO, so some governance structure is problematic but no legal issues in the organization.

But I agree with you. If we have to go to court, there always a chance where minor issues that were overlooked can be disastrous.

>He just posted 25 minutes ago - how is that "taking a powder" (whatever that means), exactly? I think that if the OP thinks he is going to get out of this without paying, he is foolish. Either separation pay, or lawyer fees - one way or another - he is going to pay.

Correct. Not "taking a powder"...never heard that reference before actually. I think it is not only about avoiding paying separation pay, but also to set up example to other employees that they cannot just declined to do their work and get separation pays. But yes, it seems like in this situation, it is going to be a lawyer fee.

I gather what you mean by separation pay, is actually Severance pay. Same thing I suppose.

There is employee termination without cause and employee termination with cause and now you have explained, I fully understand why you are seeking some evidence against this employee.

If you feel that you have just cause to sack the said employment, that can also include having an attitude problem and poor working performance, you may have no need to pay severance pay.

Your problem is that you are placing yourself into a very precarious situation if each time you have unsuitable staff members, you are afraid to sack them, and there will be more of her sort in the future, I speak from experience, trust me on this one.

My advice is, sack this employee and do not offer any separation pay, on the grounds that the said employee has an attitude problem, poor working performance and is disruptive to the smooth running of the company for reasons you have already mentioned.

If you permit these sorts of staff behaviour to continue, show fear and pay monies in order to rid the company of unsuitable staff members, then your company will fail to be progressive and other staff members will also try it on.

Whatever you decide has to be up to your own discretion, but that’s my advice for what it`s worth.

Bettlejuice, thanks. We will try and consult a lawyer and hopefully can resolve this issue quickly. This issue is becoming more complicated because this girl comes from a wealthy family, and she's doing this just to toy with us. Additionally, her Thai work colleagues apparently ganged up and support her.

I can't imagine someone would do that to an NGO that has been providing services to people and try to improve quality of lives. But people have called me naive and foolish many times before. And apparently, this is another case.

Will try to update the result in this forum later, in case anyone have similar situation.

I have to say & admit this: I have been strongly against other farangs who complained against the Thai working culture. I never been so wrong.

Thanks to all that has been providing advices

[Thongkorn]

No not legal had the same problem in the UK , The thing is any phone call or recording can be dubbed, and you have to have permission to tape any conversation , that's why a lot of company's tell you that this call may be recorded,

PS ,No Thai lies, My Thai friend who is the boss of Thailand told me so.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Thongkorn

[Eesat]

As mentioned before just demote her to below everybody else,massive loss of face and she won't turn up again,job done!

[Eesat]

No not legal had the same problem in the UK , The thing is any phone call or recording can be dubbed, and you have to have permission to tape any conversation , that's why a lot of company's tell you that this call may be recorded,

PS ,No Thai lies, My Thai friend who is the boss of Thailand told me so.

Yingluck?

[DGS1244]

Give her 3 months salary for what, we are not in EU ! Even if she goes to the court (does she have to pay for this ?) and win you will never pay and then end of story. What else can she do ? When employees do not respect me I also do not respect them !

You must be joking, paying three months will be the least she will get. You say 'what can she do?' she can turn up with a court bailiff and seize just about everything you have. I have a friend who recently went through exactly this, the three months money turned into a claim for 14 million and he had to fight it all the way and still pay over three months money plus and additional amount. So beware you Farang she Thai who do you think will win?

[gleeglee]

Cut your losses and pay her 3 months salary and go talk to the labour office who will be able to advise you on the best way to proceed.

Try to beat the system and it will bite you where it hurts.

Just follow the law verbal warning , written warning , then sack her you are covered by the law

[johnlandy]

If we sack the girl without cause that will stand in court, then we have to pay for 3 months salaries. Don't wanna give her that. So need an evidence. Figure probably I'll try this forum first in case others had similar experience, before calling a lawyer. Thanks, man.

And it is a month severance per month of employment, or you can give her all the $hit work and hope that she pi$$es off her own volition.

[cheeryble]

If like many she is obsessed with Facebook maybe you can look at her page for usage during working hours.

If it's there you can take a screenshot for backup.

Personally i don't care what people do in working time or out as long as they do their job properly.

Edited May 31, 2013 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

And it is a month severance per month of employment

That seems ridiculous to me. I doubt it's true.

[Spartans]

And it is a month severance per month of employment

That seems ridiculous to me. I doubt it's true.

Yeah, it is not correct. In Thailand, if she works less than a year, she' entitled to 1 month. And between 1-3 years, it is 3 month salary.

[Mudcrab]

Thanks for the advices. I think we're going to need a lawyer. We're an NGO, and would need to manage our money tight. Her 3 months pay would be able to support some of our ground activities.

The thing is that her performance has been declining up to a point where she basically declined to work and intentionally delay her work process and influence other team member's work . And then she started to lie on what she discussed with her direct supervisor over the phones and what she described in emails. This happened repeatedly and created a lot of work-related problem.

The strange thing is that Thailand labour law still require us to pay separation pays if the termination of contract is due to her lack of performance.

Anyways, thanks.

You need to undertake a course in management. There are many available but all follow the same basic principles.

1 identify underperformance

2 agree on a plan to address this..(within time frame)

Then recognise the performance has:

a) improved or

not improved

if the performance has improved or stabilised.......then work with this.

If not ...dismissal could be only other option

.

But give the person every opportunity to improve.... you don't know the situation facing people outside work and it can be varied and many.

Do not forget you hired this person for whatever qualities were important to you at the time.

Has that changed?

[OZEMADE]

Give her a really hard job with the same wage. When she shows she cant do the job, demote her, loss of face.

Give her the worst dirtiest job in the place. Loss of face.

Give her and her backers a wage decrease, if you are paying above the award wage. Loss of face.

If you have another branch out in the never never, send her there.

There are a heap of things you could do to make her wake up or leave.

Or you can leave things the way they are and suffer. She wins and you loose face and your business.

[Mudcrab]

Give her a really hard job with the same wage. When she shows she cant do the job, demote her, loss of face.

Give her the worst dirtiest job in the place. Loss of face.

Give her and her backers a wage decrease, if you are paying above the award wage. Loss of face.

If you have another branch out in the never never, send her there.

There are a heap of things you could do to make her wake up or leave.

Or you can leave things the way they are and suffer. She wins and you loose face and your business.

send her up the chimney as used to be the case with small boys a 100years ago?

jeez there are easier and better ways to handle this ...unless you are the typified Victorian expat (in your own mind) who can rule over the eastern world with no consequence

[rotary]

Put key logger software on her computer at work. Confirm what you think and then pay severance pay and get rid of her.

[OZEMADE]

Thanks for the advices. I think we're going to need a lawyer. We're an NGO, and would need to manage our money tight. Her 3 months pay would be able to support some of our ground activities.

The thing is that her performance has been declining up to a point where she basically declined to work and intentionally delay her work process and influence other team member's work . And then she started to lie on what she discussed with her direct supervisor over the phones and what she described in emails. This happened repeatedly and created a lot of work-related problem.

The strange thing is that Thailand labour law still require us to pay separation pays if the termination of contract is due to her lack of performance.

Anyways, thanks.

You need to undertake a course in management. There are many available but all follow the same basic principles.

1 identify underperformance

2 agree on a plan to address this..(within time frame)

Then recognise the performance has:

a) improved or

not improved

if the performance has improved or stabilised.......then work with this.

If not ...dismissal could be only other option

.

But give the person every opportunity to improve.... you don't know the situation facing people outside work and it can be varied and many.

Do not forget you hired this person for whatever qualities were important to you at the time.

Has that changed?

I think you must have missed what the OP said:-

The thing is that her performance has been declining up to a point where she basically declined to work and intentionally delay her work process and influence other team member's work . And then she started to lie on what she discussed with her direct supervisor over the phones and what she described in emails. This happened repeatedly and created a lot of work-related problem.

Now you are saying that the OP who is the Manager, needs to take a course in Management of staff.