Chanote Boundary Lines Are They Correct?

[TravelerEastWest]

Chanote boundary lines are they correct?

My wife bought some farm land and the chanote has nice straight lines from point to point.

The seller said that for years the actual boundaries were slightly different - sort of a jagged edge.

Perhaps 50 centimeters off here and there not a big issue but it will be important when we build a fence.

Mt Thai wife says that farmers usually go by what the history of the land use is not the chanotes which are usually not accurate.

Any thoughts?

[Deke]

Have the land department come out and do a survey/reestablish the corner monuments. The cost is nominal.

[rayinkrabi]

My experience is that the surveyors are not so bright or accurate here, I sold some land some years ago (nice straight line same as you say) and the 'surveyor' was so far off line when he dug to set the new marker he broke through my water pipe which was set half metre inside the boundary. Many shrugs and smiles later he put the marker in the correct spot...leaving me to repair my pipe :-)

[Khun Jean]

When the chanote was made neighbors were invited to observe where the boundaries are.

After agreement they are set and registered. So what you have on your document is what has been agreed upon in the past and is final.

Nothing wrong with surveying it again because it will stop future problems. Giving and taking a little is much better then everlasting problems.

Once agreed upon, hammer in those pillars or build that wall right away.

[iang]

On our land, some of the chanote markers were missing and/or could not be located, so all we had was anecdotal evidence of where the actual boundaries lay on one side, based primarily on the earth walls between rice paddies!

We had the land department come out to resurvey the land - the cost was nominal & the adjacent land owner was invited to come out & inspect the procedings. We picked up 2 to 3 metres over into the adjacent land and promptly built a very substantial wall directly inside the newly aligned boundary (not on top of it). The adjacent land owner didn't bother to turn up despite being invited, but by that time it was all over and all too late! He commented that his land was smaller than he remembered! Well it would be, as he was using 2-3 metres of what the land department determined was ours!

If constructing walls, I'd have the land resurveyed every time, as the chanote markers can very conveniently be made to disappear or be relocated! Just remember to make sure the adjacent land owner(s) are invited along to observe.

Edited June 1, 2013 by iang

[Minnehaha]

I friend of mine has had the land survey dept team out to his farm several times and they get chased away by the neighbors, threatened with bodily harm, etc. The team was so intimidated they have yet to complete the work. The bills for their time seem to arrive promptly.

If I were you, I would be there and supervise. This is good advice when having any work done by Thai workmen - construction, etc. And I agree with the others... give and take a bit may be necessary.

[Somrak]

Mt Thai wife says that farmers usually go by what the history of the

land use is not the chanotes which are usually not accurate.

For the big part of farmland this is true! My wife has a few land pieces too and not one paper shows the accurate

borders.

[WilliamCave]

I agree with the other posters . On the land I bought I had a survey done because the land owner across was taking up some of the dirt road . Got the lands dept to come survey and then I put up a 5 tier bob -wire

Fence With concrete posts . It is almost 3 rai and now I feel better because locals do understand boundaries when the fence is put up. That's why thais put up fences also.

[Gerald14]

I am sure surveying the property again would not hurt and save hassles in the future

[HUAHIN62]

I would first invite the farmer over to compare the chanote with the actual situation. If he agree with the chanote boundries, there is no need to get the Land Dept involved. If there's a dispute invite the farmer over when the LD does the survey. However it's a good idea to sort this out before buying the land.

[TravelerEastWest]

It seems like everyone basically agrees:

A survey is always good - invite the neighbors

Build a fence quickly after the lines are agreed upon.

The only legal issue I am not clear on is if the boundaries on the chanote do not match agreed upon boundaries over the years by farmers - which would hold up in a court?

[khunPer]

I agree with other posters – the Chanute Deed is the correct and final one. If posts are missing, have Land Department to come and messure and place new post. Fence the land, then you show you use the land (after Thai law, unsued land can be claimed by others, if I remeber right, that is 3 years for lower Deeds and 10 years for Chanute).

In old time the farmers often used a line of coconut palms, or other trees, as landmarker(s). Often not very correct. Dike borders at rice fields seems to move a little over time.

[Khun Jean]

The only legal issue I am not clear on is if the boundaries on the chanote do not match agreed upon boundaries over the years by farmers - which would hold up in a court?

The chanote holds up because it is the boundary agreed upon and marked when the document was made.

Moving markers later does not change a thing. Encroaching on land centimeters year by year does not change it.

[comserve]

Just be aware that Thai farmers will crib a bit on the boundaries over the years. My wife and her father before her is always having farmers ploughing a bit here & a bit there. After a few years they believe their altered boundaries unless you continually correct them (which normally causes a continuous argument.

I would guess that the chanote is probably correct!!!

[paulchiangmai]

Wife's father and mother owned and farmed land in Se Saket for over forty years untill last year a local woman said she had checked the bounderies on google, and that half the land belonged to her, two years later and three judges on seperate occasions visited the land and made their decision, the first judge supported the other woman, the second judge supported the elderly couple who had owned and farmed this land most of their lives, the third and final judge supported the other lady. How is it possible to have the chanote and farm the land for so long and some young upstart decides it is her land and then to have the judicuary support her? Did I hear someone say the other lady had more money than my wife's parents?

[David48]

Wife's father and mother owned and farmed land in Se Saket for over forty years untill last year a local woman said she had checked the bounderies on google, and that half the land belonged to her, two years later and three judges on seperate occasions visited the land and made their decision, the first judge supported the other woman, the second judge supported the elderly couple who had owned and farmed this land most of their lives, the third and final judge supported the other lady. How is it possible to have the chanote and farm the land for so long and some young upstart decides it is her land and then to have the judicuary support her? Did I hear someone say the other lady had more money than my wife's parents?

Was the land 'Chanote Title'?

If yes, what did that title indicate?

.

[Cuban]

Just adding to the pile here. We've seen neighbors fence posts being moved by their neighbor carrying out his opinion of the land that he should own vs what was prescribed by the Land Office survey team. When resolved getting more solid posts in place was the cure along with many photographs and the attendance of village head etc.

Fences should be built inside and not on the boundary line, I think 0.5 Metre is a rule? If this is done you really need (IMHO) to photograph and document that this has been done, the risk being you loose 0.5M in time. I have wondered if the 0.5M rule is to allow for walk-ways between and across land for farmer access, I've never pursued the idea.

FWIW marking the Land Office posts with spray paint can help find them (when not dug out) and with easy access to GPS tool these days doing your own survey is not hard. But to get good GPS data the receiver needs to be totally still (on a tripod) for 20 minutes or so, I would not rely on a smart phone's Assisted-GPS system.

Good fences make good neighbors.

[paulchiangmai]

Wife's father and mother owned and farmed land in Se Saket for over forty years untill last year a local woman said she had checked the bounderies on google, and that half the land belonged to her, two years later and three judges on seperate occasions visited the land and made their decision, the first judge supported the other woman, the second judge supported the elderly couple who had owned and farmed this land most of their lives, the third and final judge supported the other lady. How is it possible to have the chanote and farm the land for so long and some young upstart decides it is her land and then to have the judicuary support her? Did I hear someone say the other lady had more money than my wife's parents?

Was the land 'Chanote Title'?

If yes, what did that title indicate?

.

Yes the land had chanote title and the bounderies were as the chanote said and still it was overridden by the court.

[nontabury]

My experience is that the surveyors are not so bright or accurate here, I sold some land some years ago (nice straight line same as you say) and the 'surveyor' was so far off line when he dug to set the new marker he broke through my water pipe which was set half metre inside the boundary. Many shrugs and smiles later he put the marker in the correct spot...leaving me to repair my pipe :-)

I'm taking it that this was in Krabi(TV name) I've just had the land department come out for the 2nd time within a few months, to re-check some land here in Krabi, and i do have to agree with you that the surveyors here are certainly not bright or accurate. They could've find their original survey marker and so had to re-do the whole plot, strangely the result of their 2nd survey resulted in our land slightly contracting. As for people saying if you had any problems with your land area, then get the land department out again, the cost is only minimal, well those people are not talking about Krabi, here if you're prepared to take your place in the queue, it may take up to a couple of years, if you want it doing quickly, expect to pay anywhere between 20000 bht to 100000 bht.

[khunPer]

Just adding to the pile here. We've seen neighbors fence posts being moved by their neighbor carrying out his opinion of the land that he should own vs what was prescribed by the Land Office survey team. When resolved getting more solid posts in place was the cure along with many photographs and the attendance of village head etc.

Fences should be built inside and not on the boundary line, I think 0.5 Metre is a rule? If this is done you really need (IMHO) to photograph and document that this has been done, the risk being you loose 0.5M in time. I have wondered if the 0.5M rule is to allow for walk-ways between and across land for farmer access, I've never pursued the idea.

FWIW marking the Land Office posts with spray paint can help find them (when not dug out) and with easy access to GPS tool these days doing your own survey is not hard. But to get good GPS data the receiver needs to be totally still (on a tripod) for 20 minutes or so, I would not rely on a smart phone's Assisted-GPS system.

Good fences make good neighbors.

A house shall be minimum 0.5 meter inside you own land (if you want openings, windows, doors, then one meter). A fence can be on the border-line, if both parts agree to pay half each. Normally you will make a fence just inside your side of the land markers and pay yourself, to avoid troubles. Make sure land markers are Chanute or agreed upon first.

[rayinkrabi]

My experience is that the surveyors are not so bright or accurate here, I sold some land some years ago (nice straight line same as you say) and the 'surveyor' was so far off line when he dug to set the new marker he broke through my water pipe which was set half metre inside the boundary. Many shrugs and smiles later he put the marker in the correct spot...leaving me to repair my pipe :-)

I'm taking it that this was in Krabi(TV name) I've just had the land department come out for the 2nd time within a few months, to re-check some land here in Krabi, and i do have to agree with you that the surveyors here are certainly not bright or accurate. They could've find their original survey marker and so had to re-do the whole plot, strangely the result of their 2nd survey resulted in our land slightly contracting. As for people saying if you had any problems with your land area, then get the land department out again, the cost is only minimal, well those people are not talking about Krabi, here if you're prepared to take your place in the queue, it may take up to a couple of years, if you want it doing quickly, expect to pay anywhere between 20000 bht to 100000 bht.

Yes, in Krabi it certainly was but a few years back now. We also had to pay the 'fast track' fee and they seemed hard working and well intentioned at first although a bit 'dim'...then seemed more interested to get it all over with regardless hence my fractured pipe. My point is that it certainly is worthwhile the owner supervising the job at the time.

[TravelerEastWest]

OK here is the update:

By talking politely to the farmer next door we have come to a truce and first step agreement:

We will do our land fill to within 50 cm of a straight line which is not correct but somewhere close (in his favor)

The agreement is that we will both pay for the land department to come out on the same day to do two surveys.

And we will both agree to what the land department decides.

In theory this sounds fair and good but my wife feels that he may at the last second not agree if he does not like the verdict on the boundary.

Meanwhile the landfill and future building construction goes smoothly ahead which is what is important to us.

As for the law I spoke to the manager of the land department survey office and he said the law is not clear - Thai style...

He pointed that the Chanote clearly says on the document that it is not exact.

Edited June 4, 2013 by TravelerEastWest

[Crossy]

Sounds like (at least the start of) a good relationship with your neighbour TEW.

Find out what the chap from the land department drinks and pre-empt the farmer

Did I say that? I'll deny everything.

When in Rome.....

[TravelerEastWest]

Crossy,

Thank you for your cheerfulness!

PS We do have the surveyor's mobile number - perhaps a friendly lunch?

[Langsuan Man]

In the US most deeds (same as a chanote) usually have a statement at the end of the size (acreage) description of the land, that statement is more or less

I have been told by the surveyor that was contracted by the Satahip Land Office that they primarily use GPS coordinates now a days to determine meets and bounds

[TravelerEastWest]

In the US most deeds (same as a chanote) usually have a statement at the end of the size (acreage) description of the land, that statement is more or less

I have been told by the surveyor that was contracted by the Satahip Land Office that they primarily use GPS coordinates now a days to determine meets and bounds

I shall have to look up meets and bounds - I guess it means starting at one point and seeing where the next marker meets? Or am I way off?

It seems normal that deeds are not exact.

After many talks with my wife and father-in-law (a country farmer all his life) it seems that those nice straight lines on chanotes are not always accurate and the local land office survey manager has confirmed this.

So we will hope that the survey coming up in July is accepted by the farmer next to us. If not we will follow the historical boundaries (not straight - curved with a farmers rasied path) and build a wall quickly.

I am not sure how you build a curved wall so maybe posts and barbed wire?

[ThaidDown]

I am not sure how you build a curved wall

Do not worry Thai builders are experts at building curved walls, it's straight ones they have difficulty with.