Nsa Contractor Identifies Himself As Source

[mania]

http://thinkbynumbers.org/government-spending/anti-terrorism-spending-disproportionate-to-threat/

Seeing those numbers has quite a sobering effect.

Sadly those that profit from those numbers are too drunk

with $$$ to ever allow change

[lannarebirth]

The question is how many 10's of billions of dollars will have to be wasted because a spy has spilled a huge amount of information all over the globe.

I am worried about my rights, but I am also worried that suddenly everybody else in the world has access to the information we don't even want the gov't having.

I hear you, but it begs the question, even if one is a proponent of the surveillance state, should government be engaged in data collection if they can't secure it? Anyhow, I doubt too much got out on a thumbdrive.

[lannarebirth]

http://thinkbynumbers.org/government-spending/anti-terrorism-spending-disproportionate-to-threat/

Seeing those numbers has quite a sobering effect.

Sadly those that profit from those numbers are too drunk

with $$$ to ever allow change

It's even worse than it appears. Never mind the 10's of billions spent sying on the citizenry in search of the odd terrorist. What about the trillions spent killing civilian populations abroad, thus creating a never ending supply of new would be terrorists. It's madness.

[Publicus]

don't worry, they say you can trust them. I mean, what could go wrong?

You know it is surreal & sad at the same time.

I wince when I think that a long time ago, so many Americans gave their lives

to create & uphold freedoms that are today freely given up.

" Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin Franklin, with all due respect and appropriate deference to him, has been dead for more than 200 years. His statement had validity for his time, place, circumstance. It applies today to a certain extent. However, the world has moved on, changed radically during the past 200+ years and we are dealing with the present realities of balancing liberty and security in ways Franklin was incapable of imagining. And we are doing it with the same Constitution he helped to write and get adopted.

[Publicus]

Nevermind the paranoia. What are the extant data???

So basically your stance on our Constitutional Rights & Bill Of Rights is no harm no foul?

Yet your same question turned on itself would be

How has the good citizens of America being told they have a Peeping Tom/ Employee in their midst

harmed National Security?

I have no problem with the NSA wanting something. Except when it is our rights.

If they need those sorry they will not be given freely by me.

If they pass a law or amend the Constitution or Bill Of Rights

So be it. That is how America rolls....or did

Where are the extant data?!

Never mind the long train of possible horrors.

Never mind the paranoia.

What are the extant data?!

Answer my questions, if you can.

Waiting......................

[mania]

Answer my questions, if you can.

Waiting......................

I did

That it is unacceptable to you is not my problem.

Really I do not want to do the what if dance with you.

To summarize

I do not freely give up my rights regardless of how harmless you claim doing so to be.

as to your other post about B Franklin & the world today

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/645661-nsa-contractor-identifies-himself-as-source/page-26#entry6544399

[Publicus]

The question is how many 10's of billions of dollars will have to be wasted because a spy has spilled a huge amount of information all over the globe.

I am worried about my rights, but I am also worried that suddenly everybody else in the world has access to the information we don't even want the gov't having.

I hear you, but it begs the question, even if one is a proponent of the surveillance state, should government be engaged in data collection if they can't secure it? Anyhow, I doubt too much got out on a thumbdrive.

I speak of the balance between liberty and security

You speak exclusively in extremis of only the long train of possible horrors.

Take care not to create self fulfilling prophesies.

[Publicus]

Answer my questions, if you can.

Waiting......................

I did

That it is unacceptable to you is not my problem.

Really I do not want to do the what if dance with you.

To summarize

I do not freely give up my rights regardless of how harmless you claim doing so to be.

as to your other post about B Franklin & the world today

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/645661-nsa-contractor-identifies-himself-as-source/page-26#entry6544399

You haven't any extant data because there aren't any.

No one at the National Intelligence Directorate has apologized or been asked to apologize. The Congress, which created the laws we are discussing, is not calling for heads to roll because no one has been harmed or injured. Congress sees no need to apologize and no demands have been made of any apologies by the Congress.

There's only the long train of possible horrors imagined by people who haven't any data, any real cases.

[Publicus]

The question is how many 10's of billions of dollars will have to be wasted because a spy has spilled a huge amount of information all over the globe.

I am worried about my rights, but I am also worried that suddenly everybody else in the world has access to the information we don't even want the gov't having.

I hear you, but it begs the question, even if one is a proponent of the surveillance state, should government be engaged in data collection if they can't secure it? Anyhow, I doubt too much got out on a thumbdrive.

REPORT: Edward Snowden Swiped Thousands Of NSA Secrets With A Thumb Drive

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-used-a-thumb-drive-2013-6#ixzz2XDOjLFJX

Cryptic Overtures and a Clandestine Meeting Gave Birth to a Blockbuster Story

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/us/how-edward-j-snowden-orchestrated-a-blockbuster-story.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&

From the NYT fascinating and significant article: Mr. Snowden’s ability to burrow deep into America’s national security apparatus and emerge clutching some of its most closely guarded secrets is partly a story of the post-Sept. 11 era, when the government’s expanding surveillance Leviathan and complex computer systems have given network specialists with technical skills tremendous power.

[Rust Never Sleeps]

Ring, Ring.

GW, "George speaking"

BC, "Hello George"

GW, "How are things with you Bill?"

BC, "Can't complain too much but the crap I had this morning stunk to high heaven, i thought it could be used as a biological weapon."

GW, "Yeh, I know what you mean, I thought the crap I had this morning could be used as WMD. hah hah hah.

BC, "Who needs nuclear weapons with us old farts around".

Meanwhile back at Marsville.

Private Jones, "Code Red, Major Alert"

Major Alert, "Why is that Private Jones?"

Private Jones, "I have intercepted the words,biological weapon,WMD and nuclear weapons".

Five minutes later.

Crash,bang,pow.

GW, "What is that racket?

BC, "Just the Thought Police"

GW," Ok take care Bill"

BC, "You too"

Do we want this kind of society?

My sincere apologies too all who have lost loved ones to the nutters of this world.

[Scott]

Inflammatory post and reply have been deleted.

[F430murci]

http://thinkbynumbers.org/government-spending/anti-terrorism-spending-disproportionate-to-threat/

Seeing those numbers has quite a sobering effect.

Sadly those that profit from those numbers are too drunk

with $$$ to ever allow change

It's even worse than it appears. Never mind the 10's of billions spent sying on the citizenry in search of the odd terrorist. What about the trillions spent killing civilian populations abroad, thus creating a never ending supply of new would be terrorists. It's madness.

It is a catch 22. If we do nothing there are perhaps more people out there willing to commit terrorist acts against us. I do buy into they belief that many bad terrorist plots have been thwarted. Don't doubt that for a second as I know brother's division has done this.

Terrorist are winning though and love to see this animosity toward US government. This is evidence to them they are impacting our way of life. People like Snowden and his supporters bolden terrorist and provide evidence of their indirect success.

Terrorists are the root of the problem and that is who we should be complaining about. Instead, it's easier to focus on the trees by whining about an administration they hate and activities that have been ongoing since at least 2005.

[F430murci]

When you think about this, Snowden really only uncovered domestic matters most already knew or suspected. Certain no revelations to me.

Snowden's main accomplishment has been to cause a lot of tension between US and other countries. Dangerous little man and not very forward thinking unless this is what he or someone else calling the shots wanted.

[FDog]

So someone from the HG govt said it best he leave.

Somehow you translate that to your 'opinion' that it was from the Chinese govt, with no proof at all.

It is very likely he already had plans to leave as Wikileaks were assisting him, prior to being told that by a HK official.

For those who might not be very reading proficient, let me present the key material in its specific form:

"They (Beijing) used someone behind the scenes to get Snowden to leave. And the Hong Kong government didn't have much of a role. Its role was to receive instructions to not stop him at the airport," said Mr Ho, who is from the territory's Democratic Party, which opposes any meddling by Beijing in Hong Kong.

Mr Ho said: "From seeing the nervousness with which the Hong Kong government didn't even give me any details at all ... I have grounds to believe that the Hong Kong government had no authority over this case. That's to say the whole case was decided by Beijing."

The above is from the newspaper article presented in my post above (as I write this)

http://www.telegraph...im-to-flee.html

As I've reiterated several times, Beijing has a standing policy that it has the absolute authority to make any or all decisions that it deems to directly affect its defense or its foreign policy. Beijing overrode all the legal mechanisms and technicalities of Hong Kong law to dictate its policy decision in the Snowden-US matter to the government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the PRC.

Snowden was in Hong Kong one day and was gone the next day. This is directly contrary to all of Snowden's many statements that he wanted to remain in Hong Kong to carry on his illegal disclosures of US national and global security information and documents, and to fight the US government in the courts of Hong Kong, in which he had absolute trust and confidence. Snowden is smart with computers, a dumb kid when it comes to maturity and how the world works.

So for those that do not have comprehension skills.

A person said he was from the HK govt. The other person doesn't believe him.

[FDog]

When you think about this, Snowden really only uncovered domestic matters most already knew or suspected. Certain no revelations to me.

Snowden's main accomplishment has been to cause a lot of tension between US and other countries. Dangerous little man and not very forward thinking unless this is what he or someone else calling the shots wanted.

And so he should. The world does not end within the borders of the US. We do exist out here in the big world you know, and we don't want the US to be spying on us.

[FDog]

Answer my questions, if you can.

Waiting......................

I did

That it is unacceptable to you is not my problem.

Really I do not want to do the what if dance with you.

To summarize

I do not freely give up my rights regardless of how harmless you claim doing so to be.

as to your other post about B Franklin & the world today

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/645661-nsa-contractor-identifies-himself-as-source/page-26#entry6544399

You haven't any extant data because there aren't any.

No one at the National Intelligence Directorate has apologized or been asked to apologize. The Congress, which created the laws we are discussing, is not calling for heads to roll because no one has been harmed or injured. Congress sees no need to apologize and no demands have been made of any apologies by the Congress.

There's only the long train of possible horrors imagined by people who haven't any data, any real cases.

They certainly have been asked to explain things by the Chinese govt as to why they were spying, intercepting things from them. So where is their explanation or apology.

Also, is it legal for the NSA to be collecting data on US citizens living in the US?

Also, WHY haven't the NSA been asked to apologise?

How does anyone know whether they have real cases or not? How do we know where evidence came from? How do we know it won't come in the future to denigrate people who don't deserve it because they simply say something against a govt that has done wrong.

You don't know the full picture so stop trying to pretend you do.

[F430murci]

When you think about this, Snowden really only uncovered domestic matters most already knew or suspected. Certain no revelations to me.

Snowden's main accomplishment has been to cause a lot of tension between US and other countries. Dangerous little man and not very forward thinking unless this is what he or someone else calling the shots wanted.

And so he should. The world does not end within the borders of the US. We do exist out here in the big world you know, and we don't want the US to be spying on us.

Tough, US citizens perhaps want the US on spying on people in other lands for national security. That is the nature of the beast. Always has been and will continue to get worse in the future. Stay off net if you don't like.

Edited June 25, 2013 by F430murci

[FDog]

When you think about this, Snowden really only uncovered domestic matters most already knew or suspected. Certain no revelations to me.

Snowden's main accomplishment has been to cause a lot of tension between US and other countries. Dangerous little man and not very forward thinking unless this is what he or someone else calling the shots wanted.

And so he should. The world does not end within the borders of the US. We do exist out here in the big world you know, and we don't want the US to be spying on us.

Tough, US citizens perhaps want the US on spying on people in other lands for national security. That is the nature of the beast. Always has been and will continue to get worse in the future. Stay off net if you don't like.

Staying off the net won't help.

If the US thinks it is ok to spy on citizens in other countries, that have no reason to be spied upon then they should be more than happy for other countries to spy and hack their systems. What's good for the goose. They can't go sooking when others do it back to them.

So with regards to Snowden, as you say.....tough.

[F430murci]

Answer my questions, if you can.

Waiting......................

I did

That it is unacceptable to you is not my problem.

Really I do not want to do the what if dance with you.

To summarize

I do not freely give up my rights regardless of how harmless you claim doing so to be.

as to your other post about B Franklin & the world today

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/645661-nsa-contractor-identifies-himself-as-source/page-26#entry6544399

You haven't any extant data because there aren't any.

No one at the National Intelligence Directorate has apologized or been asked to apologize. The Congress, which created the laws we are discussing, is not calling for heads to roll because no one has been harmed or injured. Congress sees no need to apologize and no demands have been made of any apologies by the Congress.

There's only the long train of possible horrors imagined by people who haven't any data, any real cases.

They certainly have been asked to explain things by the Chinese govt as to why they were spying, intercepting things from them. So where is their explanation or apology.

Also, is it legal for the NSA to be collecting data on US citizens living in the US?

Also, WHY haven't the NSA been asked to apologise?

How does anyone know whether they have real cases or not? How do we know where evidence came from? How do we know it won't come in the future to denigrate people who don't deserve it because they simply say something against a govt that has done wrong.

You don't know the full picture so stop trying to pretend you do.

"They certainly have been asked to explain things by the Chinese govt as to why they were spying, intercepting things from them. So where is their explanation or apology."

No explanation needed. Why apologize for spying on a potential threat to national security. My beef with China is they ignore intellectual property rights. Them hacking into stealth fighter plane projects and etc. sux for purposes of national security, but I think most US citizens understand that Russia and China are spying on us. Nature of the beast.

"Also, is it legal for the NSA to be collecting data on US citizens living in the US?"

If District Court level, Circuit Court level and Supreme Court levels says so. Lots o privacy rights have been eroded since 2003 to 2005 ish and it will now get worse with the make up of our Supreme Court. Unfortunately, they dictate what is legal and not public opinion on a Thai Visa forum website.

"Also, WHY haven't the NSA been asked to apologise?"

Because that is a bit immature and what good what it do. If courts say what they are doing is legal, it actually is no longer the business of the public. We can hate it, but it is what it is and there are many things we may not like that we cannot control.

"How does anyone know whether they have real cases or not? How do we know where evidence came from? How do we know it won't come in the future to denigrate people who don't deserve it because they simply say something against a govt that has done wrong."

Unfortunately, it is none of our business. They only way we can reshape the constitutional issues is to vote democratic and hope Thomas, Kennedy and perhaps Breyer retire soon. I would think we have another 10 years though with the current conservative make up on 4th Amendment issues.

"You don't know the full picture so stop trying to pretend you do."

The full picture is that in this day and age, there are a whole lot of necessary evils going on that may make many us uncomfortable to know about.

Edited June 25, 2013 by F430murci

[F430murci]

When you think about this, Snowden really only uncovered domestic matters most already knew or suspected. Certain no revelations to me.

Snowden's main accomplishment has been to cause a lot of tension between US and other countries. Dangerous little man and not very forward thinking unless this is what he or someone else calling the shots wanted.

And so he should. The world does not end within the borders of the US. We do exist out here in the big world you know, and we don't want the US to be spying on us.

Tough, US citizens perhaps want the US on spying on people in other lands for national security. That is the nature of the beast. Always has been and will continue to get worse in the future. Stay off net if you don't like.

Staying off the net won't help.

If the US thinks it is ok to spy on citizens in other countries, that have no reason to be spied upon then they should be more than happy for other countries to spy and hack their systems. What's good for the goose. They can't go sooking when others do it back to them.

So with regards to Snowden, as you say.....tough.

I agree about other countries spying on the US. They have been doing it for years. Do I like it? No. Why? Worried that they may get the upper hand on us militarily.

My issue is with China ignoring intellectual property rights and interfering with banking and financial system or cyber theft. I am against anyone, including US citizens doing that. If some Chinese dude wants to listen in on my phone call, who the f cares!!!

Edited June 25, 2013 by F430murci

[FDog]

But you do know the full story do you?

All we know is that Snowden told the papers some things that he knew. From that it has been said as 'fact' by some that the Chinese have drained his laptops, he has told the Chinese and Russians all the NSA secrets etc etc.

All just guesses but nothing of fact.

But we do know that people in influential positions in the US have lied to the people and congress.

I trust I am not alone in hoping my govt takes the US govt to task for what it has and is doing and asks for a please explain.

[F430murci]

But you do know the full story do you?

All we know is that Snowden told the papers some things that he knew. From that it has been said as 'fact' by some that the Chinese have drained his laptops, he has told the Chinese and Russians all the NSA secrets etc etc.

All just guesses but nothing of fact.

But we do know that people in influential positions in the US have lied to the people and congress.

I trust I am not alone in hoping my govt takes the US govt to task for what it has and is doing and asks for a please explain.

Who is your government?

Why in the world would China and especially Russia say you can come here, we will cover for you and no we don't want to see what is on your top secret lap tops regarding US spying on our countries. Do you really hear what you are saying or are you just so angry logic does not yet resonate?

Edited June 25, 2013 by F430murci

[FDog]

Australia. But please don't think it is representative of the people. They will be replaced in October by the biggest beating ever inflicted on a party, and deservedly so.

By the way, I'm sure you would care if someone offered a few yuan to someone in China to listen in to you giving legal advice to a client and passing that on to your opposition.

Don't think it can't or isn't happening. I note the NSA has guidelines that if this is the case, with legal privilege that they should stop the monitoring. But the horse could have bolted before then, and it relies on those doing the monitoring to be above reproach. That is dangerous, as is obvious from what Snowden has done.

[F430murci]

Australia. But please don't think it is representative of the people. They will be replaced in October by the biggest beating ever inflicted on a party, and deservedly so.

By the way, I'm sure you would care if someone offered a few yuan to someone in China to listen in to you giving legal advice to a client and passing that on to your opposition.

Don't think it can't or isn't happening. I note the NSA has guidelines that if this is the case, with legal privilege that they should stop the monitoring. But the horse could have bolted before then, and it relies on those doing the monitoring to be above reproach. That is dangerous, as is obvious from what Snowden has done.

I love Australia. Surf there at least once a year still.

Unless China can come take my freedom away or use it against me personally, I don't care. To think they would focus on me professionally and then someone in US could find who focused on me personally and pay them off to pass on information to client which probably would not even help other side is nonsensical. If opposition lawyer accepted it, the problem lies with him more than anyone. This is just something I am not going to lose sleep over.

I can dream up some pretty aweful scenarios about lots of things, but why live there. Some private investigator desperate for information could more easily wire tap me here in the states or monitor my cell phone. This ain't TV. Clients never tell you they did anything wrong!

[lannarebirth]

The question is how many 10's of billions of dollars will have to be wasted because a spy has spilled a huge amount of information all over the globe.

I am worried about my rights, but I am also worried that suddenly everybody else in the world has access to the information we don't even want the gov't having.

I hear you, but it begs the question, even if one is a proponent of the surveillance state, should government be engaged in data collection if they can't secure it? Anyhow, I doubt too much got out on a thumbdrive.

REPORT: Edward Snowden Swiped Thousands Of NSA Secrets With A Thumb Drive

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-used-a-thumb-drive-2013-6#ixzz2XDOjLFJX

Cryptic Overtures and a Clandestine Meeting Gave Birth to a Blockbuster Story

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/us/how-edward-j-snowden-orchestrated-a-blockbuster-story.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&

From the NYT fascinating and significant article: Mr. Snowden’s ability to burrow deep into America’s national security apparatus and emerge clutching some of its most closely guarded secrets is partly a story of the post-Sept. 11 era, when the government’s expanding surveillance Leviathan and complex computer systems have given network specialists with technical skills tremendous power.

Aside from my gratitude to Mr. Snowden for waking up a certain percentage of the US population to it's own governments abuses of power against it's citizens. Another real benefit to his whistleblowing is that he has exposed an area of government we can shut down because it does not function. We can now save the 10's of billions we were giveing to the NSA and get rid of 10's of thousandsof government employees, because he so clearly showed they serve no function. They can be replaced with a Doberman Pinscher on a chain, which would be way more effective as a watch dog.

Edited June 25, 2013 by lannarebirth

[lannarebirth]

Answer my questions, if you can.

Waiting......................

I did

That it is unacceptable to you is not my problem.

Really I do not want to do the what if dance with you.

To summarize

I do not freely give up my rights regardless of how harmless you claim doing so to be.

as to your other post about B Franklin & the world today

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/645661-nsa-contractor-identifies-himself-as-source/page-26#entry6544399

touche'

[lannarebirth]

When you think about this, Snowden really only uncovered domestic matters most already knew or suspected. Certain no revelations to me.

Snowden's main accomplishment has been to cause a lot of tension between US and other countries. Dangerous little man and not very forward thinking unless this is what he or someone else calling the shots wanted.

Frankly, I think the foreign governments counter intelligence divisions will know far more about what the US does than the bulk of US citizens. Otherwise thay wouldn't have counter intelligance divisions and they'd just read the US papers like everyone else. Foreign goverments that are democratic are getting blowback from the citizenry and have to be seen to be making some stand or they'll get voted out of office. Foreign officials of less democratic nations are just using this incident to embarass the US, thereby showing their people, "ha, that's what democracy looks like". And to think the US brought it all on themselves and are blaming this Snowden kid.

Edited June 25, 2013 by lannarebirth

[manarak]

don't worry, they say you can trust them. I mean, what could go wrong?

You know it is surreal & sad at the same time.

I wince when I think that a long time ago, so many Americans gave their lives

to create & uphold freedoms that are today freely given up.

" Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin Franklin, with all due respect and appropriate deference to him, has been dead for more than 200 years. His statement had validity for his time, place, circumstance. It applies today to a certain extent. However, the world has moved on, changed radically during the past 200+ years and we are dealing with the present realities of balancing liberty and security in ways Franklin was incapable of imagining. And we are doing it with the same Constitution he helped to write and get adopted.

not really.

there is a reason why reading someone else's communications without a specific warrant is a federal crime.

the reason at Benjamin Franklin's time and today is the same.

the question that needs to be asked is if US citizens agree that every year potentially a thousand of them would die because the government upheld their rights or if they would rather like to reduce the number of dead americans to under a hundred a year and in exchange let the government read all their correspondence.

[lannarebirth]

You know it is surreal & sad at the same time.

I wince when I think that a long time ago, so many Americans gave their lives

to create & uphold freedoms that are today freely given up.

" Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin Franklin, with all due respect and appropriate deference to him, has been dead for more than 200 years. His statement had validity for his time, place, circumstance. It applies today to a certain extent. However, the world has moved on, changed radically during the past 200+ years and we are dealing with the present realities of balancing liberty and security in ways Franklin was incapable of imagining. And we are doing it with the same Constitution he helped to write and get adopted.

not really.

there is a reason why reading someone else's communications without a specific warrant is a federal crime.

the reason at Benjamin Franklin's time and today is the same.

the question that needs to be asked is if US citizens agree that every year potentially a thousand of them would die because the government upheld their rights or if they would rather like to reduce the number of dead americans to under a hundred a year and in exchange let the government read all their correspondence.

The affect of data collection is more insidious than that. What happens is, when you know your life is wholly without privacy, is that you censor yourself. You make at first a concious and later an unconcious decision to never say or do anything provocative, or at least provocative by whtever todays standard is. Next decade it may be a different standard with different concocted enemies, that you were sympathetic to once. Now they're the enemy and you're on record as being a possible enemy too.

[lannarebirth]

What i find kind of funny is that aside from the demonization of the kid Snowden the government has gone kinda mum. I think they're afraid to speak for fear he'll release something the next day to show that they are lying, yet again. Hoisted on their own petard, as it were.