Third of Jordanian teens believe 'honor killings' justified, study shows

[Ulysses G.]

According to that particular article, it is "cultural". Despite all the hair splitting. I'm not sure that I see a lot of difference.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

Then I suggest that you buy a dictionary.

[Steely Dan]

I can but only refer back to the link I posted regarding honour killings in Turkey, in the seven years prior to 2011 there was a 14 fold increase in the number of honour killings. Evidently there was a bit of a cultural revival and the fact it coincides with Erdogan attacking Turkish secularism is purely coincidental, as is the fact that a similar 30% of Turkish students surveyed thought honour killings normal. (Link available on request ).

P.S Returning to Jordan, I wonder what percentage of older age groups condone honour killings under certain circumstances, I would hazard a guess it may be higher.

[7by7]

Honour crimes

'Tradition, not religion'

None of the world's major religions condone honour-related crimes.

But perpetrators have sometimes tried to justify their actions on religious grounds.

"Honour crime happens across the board in the Asian community," says Ram Gidoomal of the South Asian Development Partnership.

"People try to blame Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs but it tends to happen in families where there are the strongest ties and expectations. It's a very strong cultural issue."

Leaders of the world's faiths have also strongly denounced a connection between religion and honour killings.

Q&A "Honour Killings Happen in All Religions"

Q: You mentioned in a PBS interview that honour killings are not a religious issue, but a cultural one.
A: Unfortunately, a lot of people think these murders are related to Islam. These crimes happen in all religions. I have reported stories of women killed by family members in Jordan who were Christian. In Italy, there are men who kill their family members in the name of honour. It happens in the Hindi faith, too.

Honor Killings: Always Wrong And Never Islamic

These killings take place all over the world; although a number of them do happen in Muslim countries. And, in the West, it seems as though, every few months, there’s a story in the news about an honor killing. The victim almost always a Muslim woman killed by her male Muslim family members. What these stories often overlook is that there is nothing Islamic about an honor killing.

“That is one of the black and white statements I can make,” says Indiana University doctoral candidate Rafia Zakaria. “There is absolutely nothing, either in the Qur’an or in the Hadith, or even in any secondary source that says that honor killing is something that Muslims should do or can do or that is lawful.”

[Jingthing]

Some discussion of this topic, agreeing with the assertion that it is more cultural than religious.

That said, religions and culture are definitely related, and the cultures this tends to be happening disproportionately to other global cultures are cultures of the Middle East, which quite obviously are places where the religion of Islam dominates. It is hardly Islamophobic to notice that. Nobody has asserted the honor killing problem occurs only among Muslim people.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Jingthing

[F430murci]

According to that particular article, it is "cultural". Despite all the hair splitting. I'm not sure that I see a lot of difference.

Very difficult to unravel. Do not religious beliefs shape cultural attitudes or morals? I don't think it really matters if religious or cultural, especially to the women tortured, maimed, disfigured or killed in the name of honor that the offender never had.

[Jingthing]

According to that particular article, it is "cultural". Despite all the hair splitting. I'm not sure that I see a lot of difference.

Very difficult to unravel. Do not religious beliefs shape cultural attitudes or morals? I don't think it really matters if religious or cultural, especially to the women tortured, maimed, disfigured or killed in the name of honor that the offender never had.

Indeed, the dominant religion(s) of any nation generally are mixed in some way with the dominant culture(s). Human societies are complex. Religion and culture don't exist in separate boxes in REAL life.

[F430murci]

Jingthing: perhaps some simply refuse to admit or accept that any religion can the form the basis of such savagery. Getting bogged down in this effort to distinguish just seems like a means to deflect attention where it needs to be. If someone is a savage, does it really matter if religion or culture made them a savage.

[antfish]

Some discussion of this topic, agreeing with the assertion that it is more cultural than religious.

That said, religions and culture are definitely related, and the cultures this tends to be happening disproportionately to other global cultures are cultures of the Middle East, which quite obviously are places where the religion of Islam dominates. It is hardly Islamophobic to notice that. Nobody has asserted the honor killing problem occurs only among Muslim people.

The woman in the interview says its is not religious, but a cultural. a tribal tradition. she says also that honor killings are prosecuted by the law. she also says that the majority of the people in Jordan are opposed to it.

[Jingthing]

Well I think each nation where this is a major problem needs to tackle this in a way that best fits their national culture, assuming they WANT to tackle the problem. In some cases, work would be needed to get religious leaders involved as well.

[F430murci]

Fact is, your arguments simple1 are very consistent with the mentality that fosters and rationalizes honor killings and terrorism. I'd say your conversion to Muslim worked pretty well.

You constantly indulge in personal attacks that are truly juvenile and without foundation. As repeatedly stated I do not practise the Islamic faith.

EDIT: On a personal note I do not follow any Abrahamic religion; Vendanta is my spiritual guide

No. I am just very intolerant of those that abuse, kill and torture a woman and to those that minimize or trivialize such actions. If I saw an American lay a hand a women, I would intervene. I have no concept or understanding how someone could stand by and watch a women be stoned to death.

[Jingthing]

The woman in the interview says its is not religious, but a cultural. a tribal tradition. she says also that honor killings are prosecuted by the law. she also says that the majority of the people in Jordan are opposed to it.

Actually, not exactly. She said it was MORE cultural than religious. Meaning religion still has something to do with it. Clarified now, I should hope.

As far as tribal traditions, they probably were in effect well BEFORE Islam even existed. As I've said, in any country, there is a MIX.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Jingthing

[transam]

Well I think each nation where this is a major problem needs to tackle this in a way that best fits their national culture, assuming they WANT to tackle the problem. In some cases, work would be needed to get religious leaders involved as well.

Religious leaders cannot even control religious ''leaders'' from teaching kids to blow other kids up.

[F430murci]

Some discussion of this topic, agreeing with the assertion that it is more cultural than religious.

That said, religions and culture are definitely related, and the cultures this tends to be happening disproportionately to other global cultures are cultures of the Middle East, which quite obviously are places where the religion of Islam dominates. It is hardly Islamophobic to notice that. Nobody has asserted the honor killing problem occurs only among Muslim people.

The woman in the interview says its is not religious, but a cultural. a tribal tradition. she says also that honor killings are prosecuted by the law. she also says that the majority of the people in Jordan are opposed to it.

How can it be prosecuted by the law in Jordan. Doesn't the law state that men beating the hell out or killing a wife or female family shall suffer "no penalty" if wife or female is believed or accused to have engaged in certain behavior. Is that law still on the books?

[Jingthing]

Well I think each nation where this is a major problem needs to tackle this in a way that best fits their national culture, assuming they WANT to tackle the problem. In some cases, work would be needed to get religious leaders involved as well.

Religious leaders cannot even control religious ''leaders'' from teaching kids to blow other kids up.

I am talking more idealistically here. Here on this forum, I think we're all against honor killings. But we can't control the internal politics of foreign countries. If they care enough, it's their job. Obviously, international organizations can name and shame but that only goes so far.

[transam]

Well I think each nation where this is a major problem needs to tackle this in a way that best fits their national culture, assuming they WANT to tackle the problem. In some cases, work would be needed to get religious leaders involved as well.

Religious leaders cannot even control religious ''leaders'' from teaching kids to blow other kids up.

I am talking more idealistically here. Here on this forum, I think we're all against honor killings. But we can't control the internal politics of foreign countries. If they care enough, it's their job. Obviously, international organizations can name and shame but that only goes so far.

But who gives a toss about being shamed.? Look at Syria, Bosnia, Rwanda, nobody gives a shit about being shamed.

[antfish]

The woman in the interview says its is not religious, but a cultural. a tribal tradition. she says also that honor killings are prosecuted by the law. she also says that the majority of the people in Jordan are opposed to it.

Actually, not exactly. She said it was MORE cultural than religious. Meaning religion still has something to do with it. Clarified now, I should hope.

As far as tribal traditions, they probably were in effect well BEFORE Islam even existed. As I've said, in any country, there is a MIX.

She spoke of small tribal societies and that the majority reject it it and is against it.

and this majority who are against it happen to be also Muslim.

[antfish]

Some discussion of this topic, agreeing with the assertion that it is more cultural than religious.

That said, religions and culture are definitely related, and the cultures this tends to be happening disproportionately to other global cultures are cultures of the Middle East, which quite obviously are places where the religion of Islam dominates. It is hardly Islamophobic to notice that. Nobody has asserted the honor killing problem occurs only among Muslim people.

The woman in the interview says its is not religious, but a cultural. a tribal tradition. she says also that honor killings are prosecuted by the law. she also says that the majority of the people in Jordan are opposed to it.

How can it be prosecuted by the law in Jordan. Doesn't the law state that men beating the hell out or killing a wife or female family shall suffer "no penalty" if wife or female is believed or accused to have engaged in certain behavior. Is that law still on the books?

no it isn't.

[F430murci]

The woman in the interview says its is not religious, but a cultural. a tribal tradition. she says also that honor killings are prosecuted by the law. she also says that the majority of the people in Jordan are opposed to it.

Actually, not exactly. She said it was MORE cultural than religious. Meaning religion still has something to do with it. Clarified now, I should hope.

As far as tribal traditions, they probably were in effect well BEFORE Islam even existed. As I've said, in any country, there is a MIX.

She spoke of small tribal societies and that the majority reject it it and is against it.

and this majority who are against it happen to be also Muslim.

So your saying Jordan Muslims are awesome and champions of women rights, but individuals of Jordan culture suck? What about your earlier comment about Jordan prosecuting, did you look to see what the law is I'm Jordan?

[F430murci]

Some discussion of this topic, agreeing with the assertion that it is more cultural than religious.

That said, religions and culture are definitely related, and the cultures this tends to be happening disproportionately to other global cultures are cultures of the Middle East, which quite obviously are places where the religion of Islam dominates. It is hardly Islamophobic to notice that. Nobody has asserted the honor killing problem occurs only among Muslim people.

The woman in the interview says its is not religious, but a cultural. a tribal tradition. she says also that honor killings are prosecuted by the law. she also says that the majority of the people in Jordan are opposed to it.

How can it be prosecuted by the law in Jordan. Doesn't the law state that men beating the hell out or killing a wife or female family shall suffer "no penalty" if wife or female is believed or accused to have engaged in certain behavior. Is that law still on the books?

no it isn't.

No what isn't?

Is this not current law?

Jordan: Part of article 340 of the Penal Code states that "he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty." This has twice been put forward for cancellation by the government, but was retained by the Lower House of the Parliament, in 2003: a year in which at least seven honor killings took place.

Is this not accurate or am I misreading this? Did this change recently? I am leary of things I read on the web so I am curious about this.

[antfish]

The woman in the interview says its is not religious, but a cultural. a tribal tradition. she says also that honor killings are prosecuted by the law. she also says that the majority of the people in Jordan are opposed to it.

How can it be prosecuted by the law in Jordan. Doesn't the law state that men beating the hell out or killing a wife or female family shall suffer "no penalty" if wife or female is believed or accused to have engaged in certain behavior. Is that law still on the books?

no it isn't.

No what isn't?

Is this not current law?

Jordan: Part of article 340 of the Penal Code states that "he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty." This has twice been put forward for cancellation by the government, but was retained by the Lower House of the Parliament, in 2003: a year in which at least seven honor killings took place.

Is this not accurate or am I misreading this? Did this change recently? I am leary of things I read on the web so I am curious about this.

honor killings are treated as criminal cases in jordan and prosecuted by the law.

they are also not related to religion. you can learn this fact by reading the article in that starts the thread.

[GentlemanJim]

Of the currently estimated 5,000 honor killing worldwide, 1,000 are carried out by Hindus in India.

And the other 4,000 are?

And that is the point about statistics. This news headline is very negative and disheartening yet it is a very positive situation. If only the newspaper said, 66% of all young teenagers in Jordan are AGAINST honour killings! That is a bright outlook for the future generation!

[F430murci]

Of the currently estimated 5,000 honor killing worldwide, 1,000 are carried out by Hindus in India.

And the other 4,000 are?

And that is the point about statistics. This news headline is very negative and disheartening yet it is a very positive situation. If only the newspaper said, 66% of all young teenagers in Jordan are AGAINST honour killings! That is a bright outlook for the future generation!

66% against until they think their old lady (12 year old wife) cheats on them and they get really bent out of shape.

[F430murci]

How can it be prosecuted by the law in Jordan. Doesn't the law state that men beating the hell out or killing a wife or female family shall suffer "no penalty" if wife or female is believed or accused to have engaged in certain behavior. Is that law still on the books?

no it isn't.

No what isn't?

Is this not current law?

Jordan: Part of article 340 of the Penal Code states that "he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty." This has twice been put forward for cancellation by the government, but was retained by the Lower House of the Parliament, in 2003: a year in which at least seven honor killings took place.

Is this not accurate or am I misreading this? Did this change recently? I am leary of things I read on the web so I am curious about this.

honor killings are treated as criminal cases in jordan and prosecuted by the law.

they are also not related to religion. you can learn this fact by reading the article in that starts the thread.

One more time and ill give up, how can they be prosecuted if the law I keep citing and you keep ignoring states they cannot be ("exempt from any penalty").

Perhaps your just buying into lip device about these being prosecuted in the same manner you are buying into not region aspect. Edited June 22, 2013 by F430murci

[geriatrickid]

Please keep in mind that the results reflect the demographic mix of Jordan. Of the approximate 6 million people in the country, 4 million are "Palestinian" arabs who have a culture distinct from that of Jordanian arabs. I suggest then that the results reflect the views of "Palestinian" arabs more than those of Jordanian arabs. As such, the comments offered about "muslims" must be taken within that context. The "Palestian" arabs adhere to a more rigid interpretation of Islam than the Jordanian arabs. This is akin to comparing Church of England adherents to Roman Catholics. Both are Christians, yet each group has a different interpretation of Christianity.

[sustento]

Of the currently estimated 5,000 honor killing worldwide, 1,000 are carried out by Hindus in India.

And the other 4,000 are?

And that is the point about statistics. This news headline is very negative and disheartening yet it is a very positive situation. If only the newspaper said, 66% of all young teenagers in Jordan are AGAINST honour killings! That is a bright outlook for the future generation!

66% against until they think their old lady (12 year old wife) cheats on them and they get really bent out of shape.

The minimum age for marriage in Jordan is 15.

[antfish]

Please keep in mind that the results reflect the demographic mix of Jordan. Of the approximate 6 million people in the country, 4 million are "Palestinian" arabs who have a culture distinct from that of Jordanian arabs. I suggest then that the results reflect the views of "Palestinian" arabs more than those of Jordanian arabs. As such, the comments offered about "muslims" must be taken within that context. The "Palestian" arabs adhere to a more rigid interpretation of Islam than the Jordanian arabs. This is akin to comparing Church of England adherents to Roman Catholics. Both are Christians, yet each group has a different interpretation of Christianity.

do you know more about the study than that what the top entry says? or are your conclusions just pure speculation?

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted. Stay on topic.

[simple1]

Some discussion of this topic, agreeing with the assertion that it is more cultural than religious.

That said, religions and culture are definitely related, and the cultures this tends to be happening disproportionately to other global cultures are cultures of the Middle East, which quite obviously are places where the religion of Islam dominates. It is hardly Islamophobic to notice that. Nobody has asserted the honor killing problem occurs only among Muslim people.

The woman in the interview says its is not religious, but a cultural. a tribal tradition. she says also that honor killings are prosecuted by the law. she also says that the majority of the people in Jordan are opposed to it.

How can it be prosecuted by the law in Jordan. Doesn't the law state that men beating the hell out or killing a wife or female family shall suffer "no penalty" if wife or female is believed or accused to have engaged in certain behavior. Is that law still on the books?

It's sharia Law that condones killing if the female/male is in an adulterous relationship. Regards honor killings, for example refusing to marry an individual, are not supported by Sharia law. In Jordon there were attempts to make honour killings illegal under law that I believe was rejected by Muslim conservative politicians in 2003, even though the legislation was sponsored by the royal family. However a special court specifically for honour killings was established and the sentences have since increased. From reports their are currently an estimated 15/20 honour killings a year in Jordon.

[JDGRUEN]

@F430murci

Your post#25. I already highlighted the detail under Sharia law that talks to it being permitable to kill an unfaithful partner (Post#5) so no attempt by me to deny or minimise. I referenced the death rate in the US, as an example, that even though society condemns domestic violence, although from reports different motivations, but infidelity would be one. it is not uncommon for killing of a male/female partner and it is not solely an issue in Muslim societies, that you try to infer; same for Hindus.

You might be interested to note that in Russia, currently 14,000 die from injuries inflicted by husbands or partners a year. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21474931

Sharia law is a serious issue that needs to be dealt with but it isn't a stand alone example as westerners are happy to believe. The only difference is that in Islam it is still enforced. Here's the Judeo/Christian unenforced law (it is still the law) - Deuteronomy 22:21:

"The woman must be taken to the door of her father's home, and there the men of the town must stone her to death, for she has committed a disgraceful crime in Israel by being promiscuous while living in her parents' home. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you". Love you all, have a nice day, GOD!!! (and Jesus).

The 'operative' word is 'unenforced' as Christianity and Judaism have actually evolved over the last 700 to 1000 years to a respectable level of non violence towards women especially violence done in the name of their respective religions which statistically does not exist. The same cannot be said for Islam which if anything has devolved in respect to enforced violence done to women in the name of Islam. Add to this that the Muslim population around the world is estimated to be between 1.6 and 2 Billion and it is not difficult to see the magnitude of the problem. And - speaking of this magnitude of Muslim population and adherence to 'tradition' or as done by tribal leaders... it is a ridiculous to attempt to separate what is done by 'tradition' and / or by 'tribal leaders' as both of these are actually one and the same as a part of Islam... In short splitting hairs on this issue is just silly exercise - Muslim 'traditions' are what they are because of the teachings of Islam ... Muslim 'tribal leaders' are who they are because of the teachings of Islam...