jbrain Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) Am I the only one who thinks it is strange that someone works for some lawyer for 12 years and doesn't realise he is losing money and keeps investing untill it has reached the amount of 120.000.000 Baht? And the next day finds a forum called Thaivisa and knows about the " sing in anonymous " function right away. Edited June 22, 2013 by jbrain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) I am free of him already, but he has cost me too much and I am considering some sort of legal action. So you seem to know the ins and outs of this profession, so make a fully realistic assessment of whether your wasting your time or not, and the answer is probably yes. (And don't underestimate the 'power' this guy might well have, which you cannot fight.) So move on, if you have this much legal experience then surely you can land another job, in law, with another employer, in Thailand. Move on, don't procrastinate! Edited June 22, 2013 by scorecard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eesat Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Am I the only one who thinks it is strange that someone works for some lawyer for 12 years and doesn't realise he is losing money and keeps investing untill it has reached the amount of 120.000.000 Baht? And the next day finds a forum called Thaivisa and knows about the " sing in anonymous " function right away. You're saying he may be Norwegian with a face full of warts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BngkkB Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 You were smart enough to have 4 million USD in Savings and dumb enough to loose it to drunk Thai Lawyer? Hmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaidee88 Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) I've been in Thailand about 14 years. I worked on this project that I am posting about for 7 years, not 12. I invested money into it, because after about one and a half years, the lawyer partner ran out of client money to use and we had to stop for about a year in any new development and marketing was never launched, eventhough the project was actually completed. Then I saved up some of my personal money, about 4 million baht, and then invested into the project, in order to get sales, because already invested over 10,000 hours into development and several million baht covering expenses that my partner was supposed to pay. I did not know of all of my expenses at the time, because I waiting till I completed my tax returns to report those expenses. After the project was complete, he didn't want to invest any money into getting sales, because he lost his big client and didn't want to spend his own money. I think what he did was just use his clients money and misappropriate it. The law firm was also supposed to pay me 25% for all of the legal business that came in and also a salary of 150,000 baht, and I ran all of the website things and any it stuff that was requested and I acted as an expert witness to give him advice on technical matter in regards to legal cases. I was never paid any of that money and only part of the salary for part of the first year. I have other business things going on, so I let some of it pass, but then he messed up my resident visa application by not cooperating and I paid taxes on money I never was paid for about 5-6 years, in order to qualify for the resident permit. Then recently, he tried to use extortion on me, demanding I turn everything over to him or he will cancel my work visa and I will have lost all of the time and money I paid in taxes, to qualify for the resident permit. This was already sometime ago, that part, and for one of the years I did not pay the taxes because he told me I could deduct all of the expenses I paid into the business on the taxes, then he told me I could not and gave me a large tax bill I could not afford, because I spent all of my savings on launching marketing for the product I developed. Then that made me delay my application for resident permit, then not long after he ruined all of it by telling me I have to pay him a bunch of money to renew my work permit, when it is only about 1000 baht and I told him to forget it, because I am tired of being jerked around with. He basically breached every agreement we had and caused me many damages and lied to me for those 7 years and so on.... What I was asking is for what you guys would do. I want to just move on, and I have, however, I do not want to pay taxes for money I was not paid on. I do not want to give up my share of the business for no money. I wanted to be bought out or my percentage as I worked for. Actually this one part of the business is located in a legal jurisdiction outside of thailand, but the other stuff and my resident permit issue is not. I have lost all of those years towards getting my resident permit and citizenship, paying taxes on a lot of money that I was never paid and then this guy does this to me and I am back to square one. It is like starting my life over again, from the start, like some teenager, and I have been her for 14 years almost and I trusted this guy because he came with several references and is supposed to be a legal "professional." Needless to say I am pissed off and I also treated him as a brother and best friend and I feel kind of betrayed... and the slander to my friends is unacceptable, because some of them I have know since I have come to Thailand and it was an important relationship to me. I am not really gullible. I wanted to make the business profitable, but he would not cooperate on his part and waited till I invested my last baht almost, to tell me he doesn't want to do what we had planned and worked on for 7 years. The first time I can accept, but this second time is too much and has cost me too much. To top it off, he tried to get me to not only give over to him the entire business for no money, he also wanted me to pay him all of the salary he paid me, all of his expenses and for his time too he spent on the business and then he also won't pay me the rest of my salary, severence pay or the percentage from the law firm work... I want to tell everyone this guys name, but I don't need more headaches, so I am posting like this, asking for some opinion and I appreciate your comments. I am not too concerned about threats from this guy, because that is just bullshit. I think he has lost his mind from drinking too much alcohol or he just thinks he can do whatever he wants to anyone. Edited June 22, 2013 by jaidee88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaidee88 Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 my time worked is about that amount, because I normally earn close to $200 an hour, along with overtime. I also have invested about 9-10 million baht in cash, not $4 million in cash... nevermind.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaidee88 Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 i of course do not have a written employment agreement, because we were supposedly such good friends and didn't need one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boosta Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 How about a quick edit on the wall of text above to add some whitespace so we can read it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
besth Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 OP, I think the solution to this situation is to hit the reset button and come back with jaidee89 and a new story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaidee88 Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) if some lawyer in a gogo bar asks you to work on his website, and that he wants you to be his partner, be careful no matter how much you think he is ok. I got screwed around with so much. The guy will probably want you to do all of the work for no money, or to even invest money into his idea. After your project with him is done, he may even try and to get you out of the deal and renig on everything, so he can keep everything and leave you with nothing but your time and money wasted. Fifty percent of nothing is nothing no matter how you look at it. Better to go over to cambodia and play in the casino. The odds are better. Edited June 22, 2013 by jaidee88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaidee88 Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 you should leave it as a warning to other tv members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beetlejuice Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) I've been in Thailand about 14 years. I worked on this project that I am posting about for 7 years, not 12. I invested money into it, because after about one and a half years, the lawyer partner ran out of client money to use and we had to stop for about a year in any new development and marketing was never launched, eventhough the project was actually completed. Then I saved up some of my personal money, about 4 million baht, and then invested into the project, in order to get sales, because already invested over 10,000 hours into development and several million baht covering expenses that my partner was supposed to pay. I did not know of all of my expenses at the time, because I waiting till I completed my tax returns to report those expenses. After the project was complete, he didn't want to invest any money into getting sales, because he lost his big client and didn't want to spend his own money. I think what he did was just use his clients money and misappropriate it. The law firm was also supposed to pay me 25% for all of the legal business that came in and also a salary of 150,000 baht, and I ran all of the website things and any it stuff that was requested and I acted as an expert witness to give him advice on technical matter in regards to legal cases. I was never paid any of that money and only part of the salary for part of the first year. I have other business things going on, so I let some of it pass, but then he messed up my resident visa application by not cooperating and I paid taxes on money I never was paid for about 5-6 years, in order to qualify for the resident permit. Then recently, he tried to use extortion on me, demanding I turn everything over to him or he will cancel my work visa and I will have lost all of the time and money I paid in taxes, to qualify for the resident permit. This was already sometime ago, that part, and for one of the years I did not pay the taxes because he told me I could deduct all of the expenses I paid into the business on the taxes, then he told me I could not and gave me a large tax bill I could not afford, because I spent all of my savings on launching marketing for the product I developed. Then that made me delay my application for resident permit, then not long after he ruined all of it by telling me I have to pay him a bunch of money to renew my work permit, when it is only about 1000 baht and I told him to forget it, because I am tired of being jerked around with. He basically breached every agreement we had and caused me many damages and lied to me for those 7 years and so on.... What I was asking is for what you guys would do. I want to just move on, and I have, however, I do not want to pay taxes for money I was not paid on. I do not want to give up my share of the business for no money. I wanted to be bought out or my percentage as I worked for. Actually this one part of the business is located in a legal jurisdiction outside of thailand, but the other stuff and my resident permit issue is not. I have lost all of those years towards getting my resident permit and citizenship, paying taxes on a lot of money that I was never paid and then this guy does this to me and I am back to square one. It is like starting my life over again, from the start, like some teenager, and I have been her for 14 years almost and I trusted this guy because he came with several references and is supposed to be a legal "professional." Needless to say I am pissed off and I also treated him as a brother and best friend and I feel kind of betrayed... and the slander to my friends is unacceptable, because some of them I have know since I have come to Thailand and it was an important relationship to me. I am not really gullible. I wanted to make the business profitable, but he would not cooperate on his part and waited till I invested my last baht almost, to tell me he doesn't want to do what we had planned and worked on for 7 years. The first time I can accept, but this second time is too much and has cost me too much. To top it off, he tried to get me to not only give over to him the entire business for no money, he also wanted me to pay him all of the salary he paid me, all of his expenses and for his time too he spent on the business and then he also won't pay me the rest of my salary, severence pay or the percentage from the law firm work... I want to tell everyone this guys name, but I don't need more headaches, so I am posting like this, asking for some opinion and I appreciate your comments. I am not too concerned about threats from this guy, because that is just bullshit. I think he has lost his mind from drinking too much alcohol or he just thinks he can do whatever he wants to anyone. I am very sorry to hear of your predicament. It appears that you have put yourself into this project, mind, body and soul, all in good faith and now you believe that you have been let down badly. I’m very sorry for you indeed, a sad state of affairs, plus I believe you are genuine and been taken for a ride here. Read your story and it appears there is only one option open to you, which is taking your grievances through the civil legal system. In my opinion this is not a criminal case and therefore doubt if you would gain any results by going to the police. Firstly, you will need to spend some considerable time building up all your evidence against this so-called lawyer, include your statement of events, receipts of all payments made, paperwork and documentation involved. If possible, for support, ask a friend or someone close to help you build your case, proof reading, second opinion and so on. Once all this is complete, then obtain the services of a reputable lawyer, but keeping in mind that some lawyers maybe reluctant to go against another lawyer/college, so ensure that your attorney is fully aware of the full facts and willing to become involved. Whatever you do, do not lose your temper with this guy, do not publish any bad publicity about him in the public domain, threaten him in anyway, (except for warning that you are considering taking legal action against him) do not physically, verbally or abuse him in writing, do not visit him, do not communicate with him by phone or by email, insist on written communications only, keep these civil but formal and go through the proper legal process. Also be certain that this man has money or assets and is not completely insolvent, otherwise there will no point in taking this matter any further. As they say in the legal profession, you can’t get blood out of a stone, so beware. Unfortunately in Thailand, these legal processes may take years and it`s going to cost. But if you are confident that you have solid case against him, you can claim all your legal and other expenses back from this guy if you win your case. There is a chance that if this guy believes you are serious about taking legal action against him and his professional reputation and career could be at stake, he may decide in giving you an out of court settlement. But of course you won`t know until you try. This is about all the advice I can give you, unless later on there are further developments. Good luck with this and as the wise man says; may the force be with you, you are going to need it. Edited June 22, 2013 by Beetlejuice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaidee88 Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 Beetlejuice, thanks for the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrain Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) i of course do not have a written employment agreement, because we were supposedly such good friends and didn't need one. Is it possible to have a work permit without a written employment agreement ? Edited June 22, 2013 by jbrain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boosta Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Website development, met Thai lawyer in a gogo bar, became business partners, time is worth $200/hr in Thailand, fourteen years here, lost life savings twice with the same guy. I mean even the didn't pay the landlord rent story sounded more believable than that! But truth can be stranger than fiction. . . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beetlejuice Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) i of course do not have a written employment agreement, because we were supposedly such good friends and didn't need one. Is it possible to have a work permit without a written employment agreement ? Yes, a very good point. I am not making any accusations against our jaidee88, as obviously i don`t know him. But I do hope he has played this deal right from inception as prescribed under Thai law, otherwise as is most often in these cases, the farang will lose every time. So please ensure that you have got your act together, without anything that can come back and smack you in the face later on, prior to considering this legal action and this is my advice to anyone considering doing any business deals here. Edited June 22, 2013 by Beetlejuice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottocus Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 be careful you don't end up dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrain Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 i of course do not have a written employment agreement, because we were supposedly such good friends and didn't need one. Is it possible to have a work permit without a written employment agreement ? Yes, a very good point. I am not making any accusations against our jaidee88, as obviously i don`t know him. But I do hope he has played this deal right from inception as prescribed under Thai law, otherwise as is most often in these cases, the farang will lose every time. So please ensure that you have got your act together, without anything that can come back and smack you in the face later on, prior to considering this legal action and this is my advice to anyone considering doing any business deals here. A few posts higher the OP claimed that his workpermit needed renewal. Anyway, reading the story reminds me of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loptr Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) There is a rule against advocating violence on this forum, but there is always the two-guys-on-a-motocy option. You won't recoup any of your financial losses, but he will be well and truly out of your life. Edited June 22, 2013 by Loptr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boosta Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 In practice or in the abstract, not a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoslim Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Why, why, why ?? You want to make money by working hard ? Don't come to Thailand and do it at home for god sake or at least without any Thai partners involved I would never invest a penny in a business with a Thai and same goes for a Thai lady, all farang robbers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FDog Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I'd take the shortcut option. It will be obvious that he has connections and that could mean an untimely...... I'd fight fire with fire. Go see him and have a quite word. You have been in Thailand many years, tell him you know of many Thai friends and should he fail to pay you due money that perhaps he should look over his shoulder when he downs his next beer. But to stress the point you must say that should any 'accident' happen to you that any number of people have been left money to ensure the same happens to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justben Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 If you were Thai he would be dead at $500k not $4 million. Whatever you do next, it's worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eesat Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 "The law firm was also supposed to pay me 25% for all of the legal business that came in and also a salary of 150,000 baht, and I ran all of the website things and any it stuff that was requested and I acted as an expert witness to give him advice on technical matter in regards to legal cases. I was never paid any of that money and only part of the salary for part of the first year." So after one year you leave,pretty obvious to anyone I would have thought? "What I was asking is for what you guys would do." Unfortunately that would be against the forum rules and the post would be removed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eesat Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 i of course do not have a written employment agreement, because we were supposedly such good friends and didn't need one. And you're a lawyer,seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justben Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) I've been in Thailand about 14 years. I worked on this project that I am posting about for 7 years, not 12. I invested money into it, because after about one and a half years, the lawyer partner ran out of client money to use and we had to stop for about a year in any new development and marketing was never launched, eventhough the project was actually completed. Then I saved up some of my personal money, about 4 million baht, and then invested into the project, in order to get sales, because already invested over 10,000 hours into development and several million baht covering expenses that my partner was supposed to pay. I did not know of all of my expenses at the time, because I waiting till I completed my tax returns to report those expenses. After the project was complete, he didn't want to invest any money into getting sales, because he lost his big client and didn't want to spend his own money. I think what he did was just use his clients money and misappropriate it. The law firm was also supposed to pay me 25% for all of the legal business that came in and also a salary of 150,000 baht, and I ran all of the website things and any it stuff that was requested and I acted as an expert witness to give him advice on technical matter in regards to legal cases. I was never paid any of that money and only part of the salary for part of the first year. I have other business things going on, so I let some of it pass, but then he messed up my resident visa application by not cooperating and I paid taxes on money I never was paid for about 5-6 years, in order to qualify for the resident permit. Then recently, he tried to use extortion on me, demanding I turn everything over to him or he will cancel my work visa and I will have lost all of the time and money I paid in taxes, to qualify for the resident permit. This was already sometime ago, that part, and for one of the years I did not pay the taxes because he told me I could deduct all of the expenses I paid into the business on the taxes, then he told me I could not and gave me a large tax bill I could not afford, because I spent all of my savings on launching marketing for the product I developed. Then that made me delay my application for resident permit, then not long after he ruined all of it by telling me I have to pay him a bunch of money to renew my work permit, when it is only about 1000 baht and I told him to forget it, because I am tired of being jerked around with. He basically breached every agreement we had and caused me many damages and lied to me for those 7 years and so on.... What I was asking is for what you guys would do. I want to just move on, and I have, however, I do not want to pay taxes for money I was not paid on. I do not want to give up my share of the business for no money. I wanted to be bought out or my percentage as I worked for. Actually this one part of the business is located in a legal jurisdiction outside of thailand, but the other stuff and my resident permit issue is not. I have lost all of those years towards getting my resident permit and citizenship, paying taxes on a lot of money that I was never paid and then this guy does this to me and I am back to square one. It is like starting my life over again, from the start, like some teenager, and I have been her for 14 years almost and I trusted this guy because he came with several references and is supposed to be a legal "professional." Needless to say I am pissed off and I also treated him as a brother and best friend and I feel kind of betrayed... and the slander to my friends is unacceptable, because some of them I have know since I have come to Thailand and it was an important relationship to me. I am not really gullible. I wanted to make the business profitable, but he would not cooperate on his part and waited till I invested my last baht almost, to tell me he doesn't want to do what we had planned and worked on for 7 years. The first time I can accept, but this second time is too much and has cost me too much. To top it off, he tried to get me to not only give over to him the entire business for no money, he also wanted me to pay him all of the salary he paid me, all of his expenses and for his time too he spent on the business and then he also won't pay me the rest of my salary, severence pay or the percentage from the law firm work... I want to tell everyone this guys name, but I don't need more headaches, so I am posting like this, asking for some opinion and I appreciate your comments. I am not too concerned about threats from this guy, because that is just bullshit. I think he has lost his mind from drinking too much alcohol or he just thinks he can do whatever he wants to anyone. Seriously, I feel for you and what you are relaying to us here in this forum is nothing short of a tragedy and I understand that. I also understand you have been conned, expertly. He knew where to press and when. He knew you far far better than you knew yourself and him. He also took advantage of your hope and greed. He knows you. Now if you want to get practical? This is not something you are going to settle in court. You have been had so good and he probably has his ass covered so tight from day one it will make you puke. The reason you were had in this way is clearly because he had this game in mind all along and had probably gotten "expert" advice. Possibly had done it before, you were targeted and those friendly references and people you call friends are all associated directly with your predicament. I doubt this guy even drinks. If somebody else could assume his identity while he is on holiday, they would have the power to do with his assets as they please. Just a theory of course. Asians look alike right? Edited June 22, 2013 by justben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eesat Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 if some lawyer in a gogo bar asks you to work on his website, and that he wants you to be his partner, be careful no matter how much you think he is ok. I got screwed around with so much. The guy will probably want you to do all of the work for no money, or to even invest money into his idea. After your project with him is done, he may even try and to get you out of the deal and renig on everything, so he can keep everything and leave you with nothing but your time and money wasted. Fifty percent of nothing is nothing no matter how you look at it. Better to go over to cambodia and play in the casino. The odds are better. I will because I always do business and meet honest business partners in a go-go bar! Sorry but I'm calling troll on this one,it's utter nonsense! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnxforever Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 i of course do not have a written employment agreement, because we were supposedly such good friends and didn't need one. So you handed him over 9-10 million Baht - without any legal agreement? I am not judging you as I know that sometimes circumstances make one do things one would normally not do - and after all there are lots of scammers around and people get scammed all the time. We all had to learn our lessons in life. As a rule of thump - you can not trust anybody here when it comes to a lot of money! Clever Sociopath's are very common here - the better educated they are the more dangerous they get - moral values are not the same here as in your country and in this country nobody sees anything wrong with it! You give them the chance - they take you to the cleaners - and are proud of it! If the story you tell above is true - he has played you from the beginning - just kept you on a leash to extort more and more money over the years. But you should not be posting here you should sit with a lawyer you can trust - one who is personally known by farangs / has worked for farangs for years - and can be trusted - otherwise you run into the next crook. What did you acctually need the guy for? Looks like you invested all the money, ideas , time - and he did what? Rip you off ? Was that his main part in your partnership? The money you have thrown after him , time and ideas you should have invested into your own company not into his! If you want to persue it - yes you might have a case - it will take a long time - but you might have a case. Talk to a layer you can trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FritsSikkink Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 i of course do not have a written employment agreement, because we were supposedly such good friends and didn't need one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc46 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 First of all You are a FARANG so NO matter what you do you can't WIN only you can go for a PRINCIPLE win if you have a few MILLION Baht SPARE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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