Do we have a " Use by Date" in terms of Awakening?

[rockyysdt]

Camerata recently shared information on Thai Buddhism from which I copied the following:

Mental development is of the highest virtue, for it deals with the training and purification of the mind, which is the most important component of the psycho-physical structure. To train the mind is to engage in the practice of meditation.

I'm very mindful that our physical and mental structure (this fathom long carcass) is extremely important in facilitating our path.

As we age, humans have a peak maturity age after which they begin to deteriorate, ever so subtly over time.

Time frames are so long and deterioration so subtle that we will often have very little awareness of its extent.

Not only deterioration in bone density, muscle mass, brain matter, but also our ability to defend against infection as well as the reproduction of our cells without flaw.

Someone can correct, but wasn't the Buddha reported to have become enlightened in his forties.

Looking at a statistical bell curve, there will always be exceptions (small number) but would it be fair to say that if you're not enlightened by your fifties, due to physical/mental aging, the chances of becoming enlightened diminish dramatically?

An exception could be if you had an enlightened personal teacher to guide you, although this would be rare to impossible to facilitate.

Do a high % of Farang Monks ordain late in their age?

Is this to seek meaning in an unfulfilled life?

Have they missed the boat?

Edited June 21, 2013 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

Don't forget that reaching the ultimate goal...Nibbana and therefore Arahant....is not necessary to deem oneself as having been successful and not wasted ones life.

The primary goal is to achieve the safety of Ariya, leaving behind the Worldy being state, by reaching Sotapanna Path or Sotapanna fruit.

So if you understand the goal and how to reach it.....Nibbana and Eightfold Path ... and are trying you best to walk that path....you are actually on the Sotapanna Path.

If you do not see your progress and think you aren't getting anywhere...that just means you haven't reached the Fruit yet..... but you will upon death if not before.

If you know you are living differently to everyone else, with different goals and understanding about life to everyone else...you are already on a different path to them.

Could you go back and start breaking those precepts and live as 'normal' people do? .... I suspect not....you have made a choice.....and reached a point of no return.

[steinghan]

I don't think age - in and by itself - is any hindrance for even nibbana or arahantship. As Buddhadhasa said: Nibbana is always present at your nosetip. The crucial things with respect to realization of this aren't about being fit for fight, having had a successful career, having acrued a mega-sized pension fund and other luxuries, having a strong immune system and low cholestorul count etc. - the crucial thing is the ability to be mindful and to remain concentrated on the chosen objects.

So when push comes to shove - unless the body and brain functions are so damaged that the mental faculties, on which mindfulnes and concentration depend, are out of order, you can meditate and the limit for how far you can reach would depend more on effort and predispositions rather than on current age an physical state. You can even meditate lying down so being permanently tied to a bed doesn't automatically serve as an excuse for not practicing. Of course, if you're in such a bad shape that heavy medication is needed - or you're similarly handicapped in other ways - you're excused. It seems to me though, that I see more people in their 80'es and 90'es that are still functional than I see people in that group that are that much out of function.

On the other hand, I think age plays a role with respect to the prerequisites for any succesful meditation practice - i.e. the other factors of the 8-fold path such as right effort and right view. What also comes around by age is mental "stiffness" and those who have had their mind set on career and moneymaking - and concidered all other lifestyles as looser's streaks - all life are unlikely to come around to right view - left alone put in the right effort - which both are needed to get anywhere with repsect to meditation. And even the few oldtimers, who do take up the path, will have a harder time than the younger ones dealing with the ingrained thought-patterns and would also have 30-60 years of more defilements to get at terms with.

Actually, as far as the aging goes there are some processes that are in favor of the oldtimers compared to the youngies. Prior to the turning point - around the fifties - human bodies and (sub)consciousnesses are all geared towards "conquering the world" and towards favorable reproduction with all that these things involve. Leading a life in seclusion and renunciation would be somewhat counter productive. You'll need to go out and socialize to become successful in both of those matters and you'll need to aquire material things and show off yours status to attract the favorable females as well as to signal your succesfulness in career.

Leading a renunciate and secluded life is very supportive of any actual meditation practice and becomes so much easier once you have renounced on both reproduction an career and are happy to just live in peace and quiet. And if you are one of the lucky minority who has found the entry to the path - so much easier to establish, keep and improve a regular daily practise where only your efforts set the limits for how far you'll reach.

[rockyysdt]

I don't think age - in and by itself - is any hindrance for even nibbana or arahantship. As Buddhadhasa said: Nibbana is always present at your nosetip. The crucial things with respect to realization of this aren't about being fit for fight, having had a successful career, having acrued a mega-sized pension fund and other luxuries, having a strong immune system and low cholestorul count etc. - the crucial thing is the ability to be mindful and to remain concentrated on the chosen objects.

So when push comes to shove - unless the body and brain functions are so damaged that the mental faculties, on which mindfulnes and concentration depend, are out of order, you can meditate and the limit for how far you can reach would depend more on effort and predispositions rather than on current age an physical state. You can even meditate lying down so being permanently tied to a bed doesn't automatically serve as an excuse for not practicing. Of course, if you're in such a bad shape that heavy medication is needed - or you're similarly handicapped in other ways - you're excused. It seems to me though, that I see more people in their 80'es and 90'es that are still functional than I see people in that group that are that much out of function.

On the other hand, I think age plays a role with respect to the prerequisites for any succesful meditation practice - i.e. the other factors of the 8-fold path such as right effort and right view. What also comes around by age is mental "stiffness" and those who have had their mind set on career and moneymaking - and concidered all other lifestyles as looser's streaks - all life are unlikely to come around to right view - left alone put in the right effort - which both are needed to get anywhere with repsect to meditation. And even the few oldtimers, who do take up the path, will have a harder time than the younger ones dealing with the ingrained thought-patterns and would also have 30-60 years of more defilements to get at terms with.

Actually, as far as the aging goes there are some processes that are in favor of the oldtimers compared to the youngies. Prior to the turning point - around the fifties - human bodies and (sub)consciousnesses are all geared towards "conquering the world" and towards favorable reproduction with all that these things involve. Leading a life in seclusion and renunciation would be somewhat counter productive. You'll need to go out and socialize to become successful in both of those matters and you'll need to aquire material things and show off yours status to attract the favorable females as well as to signal your succesfulness in career.

Leading a renunciate and secluded life is very supportive of any actual meditation practice and becomes so much easier once you have renounced on both reproduction an career and are happy to just live in peace and quiet. And if you are one of the lucky minority who has found the entry to the path - so much easier to establish, keep and improve a regular daily practise where only your efforts set the limits for how far you'll reach.

It would be very nice to think so.

Yes, lower testosterone will result in one who is less wild and more in alignment with following the path, but alas, for most aged there is more deterioration than can be outwardly visible.

I was privy to viewing a cat scan of my mothers brain.

There were large sections which had attrification and shrinkage.

Compared to brains of those more youthful there were empty areas, the result of shrinkage.

PS: She does not have altzeimers.

Only Buddha knows what ability and function my mothers brain has lost.

Given that the human body (brains and all) begins to deteriorate after ones prime, for most there will be a point from which out abilities deteriorate.

Edited June 22, 2013 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

- unless the body and brain functions are so damaged that the mental faculties, on which mindfulnes and concentration depend, are out of order

This is a big "unless".

This is precisely the issue l refer to.

The physical deterioration of body (brain etc) means every function is compromised over time.

We are not mindful of it, as it occurs over years, but those who are older, for example can no longer hear the same range of sound, and even the range of hues in color are reduced.

To the one who experiences, it is not oblivious, having passed ones prime many years before.

How would such deterioration affect the ability to concentrate, let alone navigate levels of experience?

If the tools (physical) can no longer detect (smell, taste, touch, sight, body, mind), not to mention mentally assess things as they really are, how does this affect ones ability to successfully travel?

Edited June 24, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Several]

Human perception is a very restricted thing even in an optimum body. The visible spectrum of light and audio range are laughable, olfactory is practically useless on a conscious level. A tiger shark has seven senses. Five like ours, only far more acute, and two of ampulae meaning they can "see" electromagnetic fields. If awakening were a matter of anatomy and sensory perception then homosapiens are very ill equipped for the task and the sharks would be teaching us. Concentration can be strengthened through sensory input at first but they are seperate things. Physical robustness can help but is not necessary. Shutting off sensory input does not affect concentration. The body (rupa) is not so important.

[steinghan]

The physical deterioration of body (brain etc) means every function is compromised over time.

We are not mindful of it, as it occurs over years, but those who are older, for example can no longer hear the same range of sound, and even the range of hues in color are reduced.

To the one who experiences, it is not oblivious, having passed ones prime many years before.

How would such deterioration affect the ability to concentrate, let alone navigate levels of experience?

If the tools (physical) can no longer detect (smell, taste, touch, sight, body, mind), not to mention mentally assess things as they really are, how does this affect ones ability to successfully travel?

Concentration and mindfulness are not faculties of the brain - they are faculties of the mind - and I wouldn't use contemporary science with all their equipment and hospitals as reference for matters related to mind inasmuch as they still seem to fumble around in darkness while Buddha unquestionable stands outs with his profound and detailed explaination of each and every aspect of mind and how it works and even provides detailed and practical instruction on how one can repeat his experiments and check out his results on one's own.

I'm not disputing that the body detoriate as we age. I'd even say that the detoriations aren't as subtle as you indicate. I for one am fully aware that my memory isn't as good as it used to be and that I have a harder time solving complex problems than before. Also my night-vision isn't as good as 10 years ago - I never drive my motorcycle after dark for that reason. However, meditation isn't rocket-science and you don't need the sight of an eagle or owl neither.

I agree that the "vegetables" you mention, in your last paragraph, probably won't have much chance just as coach-potatoes having lived their whole adult life on a diet of junk-food, smokes and alcohol may reach their expiry date already at 45. However, there are lots of people in their 80'ties and 90'ties who are still going strong, although there probably are even more who aren't quite well in various serious ways. Lifestyle plays a crucial role and there seems to be a general concensus that a lot of the deceases that put aging people in hospitals already in their 50-70'ties are owed to unhealthy lifestyles.

Isn't it a bit striking that when it comes to meditation such things as the (5) senses, memory, analytical flair, thought processes, etc. are asociated with obstacles and disturbances and not as reqirements? - I certainly do not see poor hearing, reduced memory or slow thinking as hindrances for a good meditation - they look more like blessings to me.

And even more strikingly: An essential factor in meditation is to calm the body - not the least the brain - as much a possible. The better the calming, the better the concentration. Levels aren't something to activily navigate, they'll appear all by themselves as concentration and mindfulness gets finer and able to detect increasingly subtler realms and the very subtlest reamls require the body / brain to be completely still and that the mind has become obliveous to the presence of anything brainly / bodily.

Mind you - I'm not saying that total lack of brain-functionality wouldn't be a hindrance for insight meditation. In all what I've been saying in this thread I've been thinking of a - for his age - well-functioning 90 year old guy who is walking the path, living a simple life with an established practice, keeping the precepts and eating sufficient and healthy and not much more than needed. The suttas are full of old people becoming arahants and the Abhidhamma talks about the possibility that - given the kammic scoreboard and other matters are right - one can make some sort of leap to nibbana at the very moment of death.

[rockyysdt]

ars, but those who are older, for example can no longer hear the same range of sound, and even the range of

If the tools (physical) can no longer detect (smell, taste, touch, sight, body, mind), not to mention mentally assess things as they really are, how does this affect ones ability to successfully travel?

Concentration and mindfulness are not faculties of the brain - they are faculties of the mind - and I wouldn't use contemporary science with all their equipment and hospitals as reference for matters related to mind inasmuch as they still seem to fumble around in darkness while Buddha unquestionable stands outs with his profound and detailed explaination of each and every aspect of mind and how it works and even provides detailed and practical instruction on how one can repeat his experiments and check out his results on one's own.

I'm not disputing that the body detoriate as we age. I'd even say that the detoriations aren't as subtle as you indicate. I for one am fully aware that my memory isn't as good as it used to be and that I have a harder time solving complex problems than before. Also my night-vision isn't as good as 10 years ago - I never drive my motorcycle after dark for that reason. However, meditation isn't rocket-science and you don't need the sight of an eagle or owl neither.

I agree that the "vegetables" you mention, in your last paragraph, probably won't have much chance just as coach-potatoes having lived their whole adult life on a diet of junk-food, smokes and alcohol may reach their expiry date already at 45. However, there are lots of people in their 80'ties and 90'ties who are still going strong, although there probably are even more who aren't quite well in various serious ways. Lifestyle plays a crucial role and there seems to be a general concensus that a lot of the deceases that put aging people in hospitals already in their 50-70'ties are owed to unhealthy lifestyles.

Isn't it a bit striking that when it comes to meditation such things as the (5) senses, memory, analytical flair, thought processes, etc. are asociated with obstacles and disturbances and not as reqirements? - I certainly do not see poor hearing, reduced memory or slow thinking as hindrances for a good meditation - they look more like blessings to me.

And even more strikingly: An essential factor in meditation is to calm the body - not the least the brain - as much a possible. The better the calming, the better the concentration. Levels aren't something to activily navigate, they'll appear all by themselves as concentration and mindfulness gets finer and able to detect increasingly subtler realms and the very subtlest reamls require the body / brain to be completely still and that the mind has become obliveous to the presence of anything brainly / bodily.

Mind you - I'm not saying that total lack of brain-functionality wouldn't be a hindrance for insight meditation. In all what I've been saying in this thread I've been thinking of a - for his age - well-functioning 90 year old guy who is walking the path, living a simple life with an established practice, keeping the precepts and eating sufficient and healthy and not much more than needed. The suttas are full of old people becoming arahants and the Abhidhamma talks about the possibility that - given the kammic scoreboard and other matters are right - one can make some sort of leap to nibbana at the very moment of death.

Well written S, and count me in as l am one of the aged.

l'm just assessing my odds for cracking the big one.

Don't get me wrong, Awakening/Nibbana, if it doesn't happen is not important, as you described, practicing and improving ones life is far more important.

ln terms of reaching the pinnacle though, l suspect aging will be an impediment, particularly if you take the original anatman view in early Buddhism rather than the later metaphysical leanings including astrology and reincarnation (re birth).

When we speak of practicing the eightfold path, who practices?

If it is this fathom long carcass, and everything we need lies within it, then its integrity is important.

Of course, with any statistical probability there will be examples which fall outside the norm.

Also taking care of oneself, given genetic and environmental factors will help.

If cognitive and memory function deteriorate then insight meditation becomes dubious.

Deteriorating sensory perception is only indicative of many brain functions which are also being compromised.

In terms of stillness of mind, l hope the stillness isn't achieved because there is no one home.

Edited June 24, 2013 by rockyysdt

[IMA_FARANG]

Actually I don't believe physical age or even physical condition because of age have anything to do with "enlightenment".

Of course if a person's age is so advanced that his or her (please note the his or her) mental functions are failing, that is another story.

But in fact, I believe that young people are often distracted by what they perceive as the "important" things in their "life".

Things like career, family, financial and social status, and relationships often distract younger people from the clear sight needed for "enlightenment" or "understanding".

With age, those things that to younger people seemed so important .... family, career, and "status".... drop away and are often shown as the "illusions" they truly are.

I say that from my 67 years, looking back at my life. I've experienced all of those things in my life and from that experience I've seen their true nature.

I would say exactly the opposite is true. When you've seen through all those illusions as the fleeting illusions they are ... only then can you (possibly) begin t o see clearly the true state ..... without those illusions blocking your view.

That's why I have to gently laugh at those young people who are so eager to "forge ahead: and become "enlightened".

Because, from my 67 years of experience it's not a 100 yard dash for some illusionary finish line, it's a marathon to complete that is the correct course.

In my personal opinion, it's not age that gets in the way, it's the impatience and reckless charge of youth.

But that's just this old fool\'s opinion.

[Several]

Depends on the practitioner. Some advance quickly, some less so. What you're saying sounds like the rabbit and the tortoise, they did both finish though.

One of the enlightenment factors is the investigation of states which would require one to be compus mentus. But that is not always a matter of age. I saw a man in his 40's with dementia.

On a totally unrelated note, Rocky are you using lower case 'L' instead of upper case 'i'? L think you are and L find it a bit distracting.

[rockyysdt]

Depends on the practitioner. Some advance quickly, some less so. What you're saying sounds like the rabbit and the tortoise, they did both finish though.

One of the enlightenment factors is the investigation of states which would require one to be compus mentus. But that is not always a matter of age. I saw a man in his 40's with dementia.

On a totally unrelated note, Rocky are you using lower case 'L' instead of upper case 'i'? L think you are and L find it a bit distracting.

I have been using lower case L.

Due to my poor eyesight, I never noticed the difference.

Perhaps this is an excellent example of perception.

Due to ageing I no longer have the tools to see/perceive what is.

Consequently my behavior/conclusions are conditioned.

My ability to overcome this bad habit might be an indicator to you of my future level of mindfulness.

I'll give it a go.

Could we say that we can't use the example of the 40 year old with dementia or an 85 year old who is fully functional?

Genetically and environmentally aren't there always exceptions?

The other big factor with those who are aged is an increasing inflexibility to learn new things or to change. A vital part of practice.

Edited June 25, 2013 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Actually I don't believe physical age or even physical condition because of age have anything to do with "enlightenment".

Of course if a person's age is so advanced that his or her (please note the his or her) mental functions are failing, that is another story.

But in fact, I believe that young people are often distracted by what they perceive as the "important" things in their "life".

Things like career, family, financial and social status, and relationships often distract younger people from the clear sight needed for "enlightenment" or "understanding".

With age, those things that to younger people seemed so important .... family, career, and "status".... drop away and are often shown as the "illusions" they truly are.

I say that from my 67 years, looking back at my life. I've experienced all of those things in my life and from that experience I've seen their true nature.

I would say exactly the opposite is true. When you've seen through all those illusions as the fleeting illusions they are ... only then can you (possibly) begin t o see clearly the true state ..... without those illusions blocking your view.

That's why I have to gently laugh at those young people who are so eager to "forge ahead: and become "enlightened".

Because, from my 67 years of experience it's not a 100 yard dash for some illusionary finish line, it's a marathon to complete that is the correct course.

In my personal opinion, it's not age that gets in the way, it's the impatience and reckless charge of youth.

But that's just this old fool\'s opinion.

In Buddhism there are two schools of thought relating to Awakening.

One is the big bang event of becoming Enlightened/Nibhanna, breaking free from re birth.

the other is.

Awakening to a non metaphysical state in which one lives the best possible life, free from attachment to greed, aversion and delusion.

Your experience fits into the latter model.

Edited June 25, 2013 by rockyysdt

[steinghan]

l'm just assessing my odds for cracking the big one.

If you're looking for anything decisive on that you're on a futile, academic quest because you'll not find anything decisive by means of intellectual pondering. The only one who can know if someone is an arahant or not is the culprit himself. So, you'll only know if it is possible for an old man to become an arahant if you become an arahant yourself in your old age. - Oppositely, if you die without becoming an arahant yourself, you'll just die as someone who still doesn't have anything decisive on the subject.

As far as I am concerned, I see no indication that someone who ages "naturally" - i.e. detoriations aren't speed up or increased by accidents or by poor lifestyle in the rich part of the world or malnutrition in the poor part - should detoriate to such an extent that he can't meditate properly. My point is that if a 90 year old guy has the "brains" to function "normally" in daily life on his own, he'll also have the brains to meditate perfectly and why shoudn't it be possible for him to get all the way?

After all, wisdom usually isn't associated with people in their biological prime, it is associated with people old of age and traditionally old people were consulted for advice in serious life-matters by the younger ones. No reason to consider today's standard of seeing everyone beyond 60 as useless liabilities for society, as anything resembling any kind of right wiew in any sense.

It has dawned upon me that the majority of phenomona associated with aging actually appear to be supportive of meditation rather than the opposite. Here's a partial list of some things that come around by age (the first few items only for those who accepts their age, though): natural withdrawal from the competiveness of carreer and reproduction, natural withdrawal from nights on the town for sense pleasures, natural increase of mellowness, natural detoriation (i.e. non-devastating) of sensory system, reduced (not equal to vanished) memory, reduced thinking capacity, etc. Given that any good meditation requires bodily / brainly stillness and an esential part of the tecniques are aimed at reducing - let's say brain-activity for short - why on earth should one rule out that the 90 year old guy doesn't have a headstart whenever he hits the cushion as compared to his 40 year old counterpart who have the full load of prime-time brain-activities to deal with? (And I don't even discriminate between 40 year old monks and 40 year old super-CEO's here).

If cognitive and memory function deteriorate then insight meditation becomes dubious.

Deteriorating sensory perception is only indicative of many brain functions which are also being compromised.

Here you are speaking in terms that are so general and academic, that they are meaningless. Essentially, you are just repeating the general standard: "If you are old, you are useless. Period." - and leave it at that. If you truly wan't to pursue your assesment of "cracking the big one" you'll have to get a bit more specific with the detoriations - both in terms of what they are, how big they are, and what are their consequences if the detoriation is this big compared to that big compared to non-detoriation. I have provided a whole list of examples of age-related detoriations, that may actually be supportive of meditation rather than the opposite - which you completely write off by your two sentences above.

I have no idea wether old guys can become arahants or not, and I don't really care. I can't say that I have suffered much in this life (sofar) so if only I can secure that it won't get much worse, I'm okay with joining in on another round of samsara. Playing a bit with intellectual ponderings I don't see any reasons for why not because detoriations of a severity that prevent proper meditations don't come around merely due to age itself, they come around due to having lived life wrongly (or due to genetic flaws, accidents, certain virus' and such).

One can choose to focus on the examples of healthy oldies one sees, the examples of old and even dying people becoming arahants in the canonical scriptures and in the commentaries - or one can choose to focus on sick peoples' medical journals. The former choise leads towards a positive outlook, the latter leads to a negative one. Either way, one will never find anything decisive - so why chose the negative route?

On my personal bottom-line stands: Anything can happen anytime. Next time I drive my motorcycle under an overpass a minibus might drop down on me. It may kill me instantly - or it may maime me to such an extent that I'll be hosptalised for many years with no ability to meditate. If I avoid the minibus, I may get a brain-tumor that eats away areas and functions essential for meditation. So - why choose to worry rather than choose to think wholesomely while one still has the chance to do so?

I'll leave this topic at that.

[Several]

Depends on the practitioner. Some advance quickly, some less so. What you're saying sounds like the rabbit and the tortoise, they did both finish though.

One of the enlightenment factors is the investigation of states which would require one to be compus mentus. But that is not always a matter of age. I saw a man in his 40's with dementia.

On a totally unrelated note, Rocky are you using lower case 'L' instead of upper case 'i'? L think you are and L find it a bit distracting.

 

I have been using lower case L.

Due to my poor eyesight, I never noticed the difference.

 

Perhaps this is an excellent example of perception.

Due to ageing I no longer have the tools to see/perceive what is.

Consequently my behavior/conclusions are conditioned.

 

My ability to overcome this bad habit might be an indicator to you of my future level of mindfulness.

I'll give it a go. 

 

Could we say that we can't use the example of the 40 year old with dementia or an 85 year old who is fully functional?

 

Genetically and environmentally aren't there  always exceptions?

 

The other big factor with those who are aged is an increasing inflexibility to learn new things or to change.  A vital part of practice.

Aha! I thought as much. I only noticed the L because I use an odd font.

And yes. Maintaining flexibility is an uphill struggle.

[rockyysdt]

Hi S.

Please don't take my discussion as an attack on oldies.

I'm mindful that I'm basically a cerebral type.

My attachment to needing to be stimulated.

I have total respect for all living beings and humans regardless of age, and would never think negatively of the aged.

I thought the subject might be interesting to debate.

Perhaps, as you say, none of us will ever know.

If everything is equal (genetics, lifestyle, health), then my observations are that as we age we deteriorate on a number of levels:

• Sensory (eyes, ears, smell, taste, touch, mind)
• Memory.
• Cognitive ability.
• Learning ability.
• Concentration ability.
• Others.

My conclusion is that, barring the obstacles, the mind/brain in its prime has an increased chance to practice successfully or practice without obstacle.

I've taken in your points.

Don't get me wrong.

Regular practice without expectation is primary and of great benefit.

Edited June 25, 2013 by rockyysdt

[sabaijai]

It's an interesting question. In general, we might presume that a younger person is more physically capable of standing the rigors of serious practice, if you think in terms of long hours spent sitting cross-legged. On the other hand, mentally they are often less well adapted to such efforts.

But practice isn't about long hours of sitting. It's about realising paramattha dhamma, which can occur at any age, when conditions are ripe. The main thing is to pay attention. Young people are often more easily distracted than older people. Even when the memory is going, an older person may be at an advantage when it comes to renewing attention from moment to moment.

[rockyysdt]

It's an interesting question. In general, we might presume that a younger person is more physically capable of standing the rigors of serious practice, if you think in terms of long hours spent sitting cross-legged. On the other hand, mentally they are often less well adapted to such efforts.

But practice isn't about long hours of sitting. It's about realising paramattha dhamma, which can occur at any age, when conditions are ripe. The main thing is to pay attention. Young people are often more easily distracted than older people. Even when the memory is going, an older person may be at an advantage when it comes to renewing attention from moment to moment.

Hi S J.

It's true.

Most young have far too many diversions which they would need to give up or curb.

Many still have much to experience and to experiment with.

Fueled with testosterone/estregen doesn't help.

As one ages and mellows there are probably a number of reasons why one begins to have an advantage.

This can include loss of testosterone, an unfulfilled life, mid life crisis, the need to find meaning in ones life, and perhaps, loss of brain function which may reduce ones drives for excitement risk & experimentation.

If their advantage is due to the latter (loss of brain function) then one could say the apparent reduction in distraction maybe in part due to the fact that there is less of one there (deterioration) to be distracted.

Siddhartha Gautama became enlightened at the age of 35.

Doesn't this fact not only align with what I am saying, but also fits into a middle path or way which includes age?

Isn't overcoming attachment to greed, aversion, and delusion, even when at its height, more powerful and transforming?

Doesn't it appear that we either lose attachment through practice, or we appear to lose attachment in old age as the conditioning which facilitated attachment attrified?

Edited June 29, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Several]

Gotama became disillusioned upon seeing sickness, old age and death so perhaps proximity to these increases the desire to seek something more. In general youth is strong and virile giving a false impression of immortality or at least longevity. Usually (but not always) advanced age brings the demise of friends and family making ones own mortality an increasing probability.

Near death experience rarely leaves people unchanged. What seemed everything yesterday means nothing today, aquisition of material possesions becomes secondary to accumulation of experience in ones 'remaining time'.

As stated, age usually provides this insight but Gotama was in his mid to late twenties when he began his search.

[rockyysdt]

Gotama became disillusioned upon seeing sickness, old age and death so perhaps proximity to these increases the desire to seek something more. In general youth is strong and virile giving a false impression of immortality or at least longevity. Usually (but not always) advanced age brings the demise of friends and family making ones own mortality an increasing probability.

Near death experience rarely leaves people unchanged. What seemed everything yesterday means nothing today, aquisition of material possesions becomes secondary to accumulation of experience in ones 'remaining time'.

As stated, age usually provides this insight but Gotama was in his mid to late twenties when he began his search.

There are three who I associate with, all from different social groups, who shared the experience of suffering heart attacks.

All three survived after major open heart surgery.

The scars they showed me were quite gruesome.

For 2 years, all three adopted model lifestyles.

Dramatice loss of weight, regular long walks, gym work and surfing, healthy diet, and the two smokers amongst them had given up the habit.

Now, after between 5 - 7 years, they are all well over weight, eat large portions of fatty and unhealthy food, the two ex smokers now smoke, and very little exercise is done.

One of them attends a regular weekly meeting with other friends, where he also smokes cannabis, drinks atleast a litre of Cola in my presence, and will also eat a full block of Milk Chocolate and a couple of Crispe Cream donuts.

All have forgotten the trauma they had suffered and their close escape from death.

In fact all three no longer see themselves as high risks accepting their current lifestyle and physical state as normal and under control.

We can often see the conditioning of others, but each of us is blind to our own.

The clutches of conditioning which had been temporarily shed during a traumatic period, have slowly returned to re imprison them.

I suppose it's now only a matter of time.

These examples only show to me, that even "near death experience" only has a limited period of change, such is the power of conditioning.

Edited June 29, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Several]

I see. If you don't change attitude the old habits reasssert themselves. I guess thats why the fourth thing Gotama saw, the ascetic, showed him an alternative path. If no alternative presents itself there is no lasting change.

[rockyysdt]

I see. If you don't change attitude the old habits reasssert themselves. I guess thats why the fourth thing Gotama saw, the ascetic, showed him an alternative path. If no alternative presents itself there is no lasting change.

When I talk to one of them about practice and the retreats I attend he laughs at me and advises that life is to be enjoyed and not thrown away on superstition and religion.

The other is sold on Christianity.

So for them there is no other path other than more trauma if they can survive it.

Edited June 29, 2013 by rockyysdt

[khunsuar]

Many farangs become monks later in life, after the obligations of family and work have been completed. For some, they have come to Buddhism during that period when they must continue to support their families, and insure their welfare. Realizing the impracticality of becoming a monk during this time.

No one has missed the boat in that sense because everyday brings you another chance to practice. Plus, there is no boat to miss, really. I have heard and read many times about how Buddhism is viewed.. Religion or philosophy? Well in the strict sense, cannot be a religion as there is no central deity to worship. When one enters a Wat and performs the 5 point prostrations in front of the Buddha, this is to offer respect ,not worship to the one who has shown the path out of suffering. No more than this. Philosophy? quite possibly,but here caution must be used as it is very easy to think that Buddhism promotes nihilism , which is incorrect thinking. Gautama realized that the extremes are unprofitable behavior, and the middle way, free from this works best. Finally, as a personal observation ,Buddhism is an EDUCATION. You educate yourself in learning about yourself,others,and that eventually you become the path that you walk.

[rockyysdt]

Many farangs become monks later in life, after the obligations of family and work have been completed. For some, they have come to Buddhism during that period when they must continue to support their families, and insure their welfare. Realizing the impracticality of becoming a monk during this time.

No one has missed the boat in that sense because everyday brings you another chance to practice. Plus, there is no boat to miss, really. I have heard and read many times about how Buddhism is viewed.. Religion or philosophy? Well in the strict sense, cannot be a religion as there is no central deity to worship. When one enters a Wat and performs the 5 point prostrations in front of the Buddha, this is to offer respect ,not worship to the one who has shown the path out of suffering. No more than this. Philosophy? quite possibly,but here caution must be used as it is very easy to think that Buddhism promotes nihilism , which is incorrect thinking. Gautama realized that the extremes are unprofitable behavior, and the middle way, free from this works best. Finally, as a personal observation ,Buddhism is an EDUCATION. You educate yourself in learning about yourself,others,and that eventually you become the path that you walk.

Leaving practice until later in life conjures up a number of thoughts in my mind.

• You can teach an old dog new tricks but it increasingly gets more difficult.
• Ones reason for Monkhood at a late/later age (attachment).
• Limited resource remaining/reduced capability (aged) with which to to develop a minimal level of practice.
• Monkhood confirms such vocation requires full time.

Edited June 30, 2013 by rockyysdt

[sabaijai]

Many farangs become monks later in life, after the obligations of family and work have been completed. For some, they have come to Buddhism during that period when they must continue to support their families, and insure their welfare. Realizing the impracticality of becoming a monk during this time.

No one has missed the boat in that sense because everyday brings you another chance to practice. Plus, there is no boat to miss, really. I have heard and read many times about how Buddhism is viewed.. Religion or philosophy? Well in the strict sense, cannot be a religion as there is no central deity to worship. When one enters a Wat and performs the 5 point prostrations in front of the Buddha, this is to offer respect ,not worship to the one who has shown the path out of suffering. No more than this. Philosophy? quite possibly,but here caution must be used as it is very easy to think that Buddhism promotes nihilism , which is incorrect thinking. Gautama realized that the extremes are unprofitable behavior, and the middle way, free from this works best. Finally, as a personal observation ,Buddhism is an EDUCATION. You educate yourself in learning about yourself,others,and that eventually you become the path that you walk.

Leaving practice until later in life conjures up a number of thoughts in my mind.

• You can teach an old dog new tricks but it increasingly gets more difficult.
• Ones reason for Monkhood at a late/later age (attachment).
• Limited resource remaining/reduced capability (aged) with which to to develop a minimal level of practice.
• Monkhood confirms such vocation requires full time.

I don't agree. I have known many people coming to satipatthana vipassama late in life who seem to take to it quite well.

Also one can't presume that older people weren't practising when they were younger. I have known many westerners who started meditating and studying Buddhamma in their 20s or 30s, and who are now in their 60s, who have upped their practice considerably because they have more time and fewer distractions, as you noted in an earlier post.

Then again, most of the older, stable practitioners I know don't have serious heath problems. If one is in ill health, and needs constant medical supervision, it's another story entirely, I'd guess most people wouldn't want to burden a monastery with a pre-existing condition, so ordination might no longer be an option.

If one has serious health issues, then that might be a priority for most older folk. Still, satipathana can be cultivated in any physical state.

I see no evidence that older, reasonably healthy people are at a disadvantage when it comes to practice. Rather the opposite.

[ChrisB87]

Perhaps best not to think too much about it and just practice to the best of your ability at all times.

I believe Ajahn Chah said, "A monks only task is to let go. Desire to reach Nirvana, will actually stop them from reaching it"

[fabianfred]

It is claimed by several teachers that the regular practice of vipassana meditation will keep the practitioner mentally sharp right up to the end and prevent the oncome of senile dementia....

Not forgetting that although the final goal is nibbana by reaching the state of arahant, the initial goal is stream-entry, the first step on the path and safety from a bad rebirth....and this should easily be reached in this lifetime by any serious practitioner.

[IMA_FARANG]

Well, I hope not.

I seem to have a "vested interest" in that question, just having passed my 67th birthday and still "practicing".

Although, to be clear, I am a Zen Buddhist and my idea of "practice" might be slightly different from some others posting on this topic.

Anyhow, I don't know of any "must be used by" date yet.

Or to be accurate .... it's not apparent to me yet.

Even though I think it is actually a Hindu quote I'll just say:

Again and again, it is given unto you.

Again and yet again.

(Birth, Life, Death, and Rebirth .... in case you didn't get the meaning of that quote.)

[rockyysdt]

Well, I hope not.

I seem to have a "vested interest" in that question, just having passed my 67th birthday and still "practicing".

Although, to be clear, I am a Zen Buddhist and my idea of "practice" might be slightly different from some others posting on this topic.

Anyhow, I don't know of any "must be used by" date yet.

Or to be accurate .... it's not apparent to me yet.

Even though I think it is actually a Hindu quote I'll just say:

Again and again, it is given unto you.

Again and yet again.

(Birth, Life, Death, and Rebirth .... in case you didn't get the meaning of that quote.)

Hi IMA

My concern was that with brain deterioration (cognitive), probably isn't apparent.

I'd also say such deterioration might be so gradual and that we are not aware of it.

Without an instant comparison between age 20 and age at 67, how could we know?

If you were to instantly slip into your 20 year old body you might be shocked at how much deterioration has occurred without your awareness of it.

I recall I allowed my eyesight to deteriorate for some time before I eventually visited an optometrists.

I was prescribed bi focals at the time after learning that both my long and short vision was no longer what it used to be.

The new prescription sunglasses soon arrived.

Leaving the optometrists, I looked into the distance (a tree covered hillside) and was amazed at the clarity of this vista.

I had no awareness of how significantly my eyes had deteriorated until that day.

Without a comparison, prior to this, I thought the distant blur was normal.

I suspect that as deterioration of the brain involves cognitive function as well as many tasks, the impact might be greater than we might know.

A poignant fact was that although our opportunity is "again & again", in terms of getting to the point of ending re birth, the boat may have sailed.

The Buddha himself did Awaken at age 35.

Other posters have said that age isn't an issue and point to many examples, but in a statistical bell curve you can always site a range of precedents.

Fortunately practice is not all about targets, but about living in the present with an ever increasing level of awareness.

Edited October 11, 2013 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

It is claimed by several teachers that the regular practice of vipassana meditation will keep the practitioner mentally sharp right up to the end and prevent the oncome of senile dementia....

Not forgetting that although the final goal is nibbana by reaching the state of arahant, the initial goal is stream-entry, the first step on the path and safety from a bad rebirth....and this should easily be reached in this lifetime by any serious practitioner.

Hi Fred.

There is no doubt that stress and poor living must have a huge impact on our immune system, our health and our well being.

Poor lifestyle, and living with greed, aversion, and delusion would have a considerable effect on the aging process.

I'd agree with you that practicing meditation, mindfulness, and following the precepts may contribute to being mentally sharp and preventing degeneration due to aging.

I suspect it wouldn't have as much of an impact against genetic disorders.

[fabianfred]

I class genetics as one way for karma vipakha to have its effect...and as we know some incurable diseases by usual means are sometimes cured by vipassana when one shares merits and are forgiven.