Farming Greenhorns - Tips for Surviving the Early Years

[David48]

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Over the many years that you have been Farming here, I'm sure there are many

lessons that you could pass on to someone new to Thailand,

or even in more need of guidance ... someone new to Farming and new to Thailand.

For me, if it's not going to be a Hobby Farm on 1/2 a Rai, but a genuine attempt to

create an income producing Farm, not an income consuming Farm, I would suggest

to him to have a Business Plan.

What Tips for Surviving the Early Years would you give them?

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[shaggy1969]

I could probably write a book on things not to do

Fools Rush In (Where Angels Fear to Tread)

[itchybum]

I could probably write a book on things not to do

Fools Rush In (Where Angels Fear to Tread)

Write it then.

[farmerjo]

I could probably write a book on things not to do

Fools Rush In (Where Angels Fear to Tread)

Write it then.

When it comes to farming in thailand i think a farming background is very important.also 1 baht is 1 baht.

I take my hat off to the successful ones.i was lucky enough to move here in 2005 and snap up 101 rai in what was considered a drought year where thais basically gave up on the land heading to bangkok for work.

I thought with hard work i could make a living from this.after many different stratigys i went back to working part time.

Now i just do it as hobby to set up my son.in another 12 years time he should be able to take over a viable operation with nothing to be spend.

Although not making alot myself no one can take away my satisfaction of blood,sweat and tears to create a little paradise to be enjoyed for hopefully generations to come.

[David48]

I could probably write a book on things not to do

Fools Rush In (Where Angels Fear to Tread)

At the moment I settle for a few salient points ... maybe your top 1 or 2 ...

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[David48]

Say, for example, your adult son, with no experience in Farming, wanted to come to a foreign land and start a farm ... what 1 or 2 advices would you say are crucial to a successful endeavour?

I know I harp on about a Business Model, but is owning the land part of the success?

Is renting land not an option until you can prove the success or other wise of the Farming Model?

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[Ticketmaster]

Do you plan to farm, or are you farming, David, or are you just trying to stir up some debate? If you are farming, you should post your experiences and business plan. If you are planning to farm, tell us about your plan. If you are not farming nor plan to, what is your intent here?

[zeichen]

I believe David is trying to create helpful resources for all those that are attempting to start farms. David does not live in Thailand but has connection to some local farmers and is very intent on helping others.

Since there is a lot of information out there but scattered all over sometimes it takes days or weeks to sift through the garbage.

tip

1. I always suggest making friends with local farmers and those perhaps in another province doing something similar to your plan. If people in your area know your family, they are less likely to mess with you. Easy to steal or sabotage from a faceless foreigner, but not the son/son in law of a respected local.

2. Get your hands dirty. If the people that you hire see you work harder than they do and know more, they are more likely to work harder for you. A boss that stands back in clean clothes barking orders and showing emotion will not keep good workers. (goes for all businesses but laborers will respect you a lot more if you can work like a bull)

3. Start small. I have some major plans for a larger scale operation, but to first break into the market I just rented 1 rai of land for 1k baht a month. I started a few mushroom huts and a small fish pond and a few other things. FInd what issue you will face first hand. Knowing that mites, certain diseases that effect fish will happen, can help you a little, but actually going out and finding the right medicine and dealing with language barriers to get what you will need, will help you when you have to do it for 10k fish rather than just 1k.

4. Don't rely on your female Thai partner to do things for you. Learn the customs and language enough to do your own business dealings. Pricing in Thailand usually goes from best to worst price (Thai male,Thai female, Foreign male speaking Thai, Thai female speaking for foreign male)

5. Don' t build a barn that is better than your local worker's housing. Use local standards for most things to keep costs down. Don't use western building techniques and materials for local farms.

[David48]

Some excellent thoughts and tips above and what was refreshing were the direct references to Farming in Thailand, rather then Farming in general.

A truly great post ...

But, everyone who Farms here have learnt a lesson or two along the way ... the thread like like to hear from you.

Be it big or small ... your tips gentlemen.

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[farmerjo]

For newbies take the time to read growing cassava by khonwan from start to finish.(alot of knowledge and highs and lows).

One thing alot of people would admit is if you think you can sit back and pay people to do your work,you will lose unless your on a very big scale.

Thai farming is based on families working small plots together for each other thus removing the labour costs.

I wouldn't even consider renting land,i've see thais plant crops on others land,get to harvest stage and the proper owner comes along to take the crop.

Finally when i moved here an old farang said,it will take you x amount of baht in mistakes to live here.I hope you learn quicker than i did.

[cornishcarlos]

Do NOT underestimate the ingenuity of pythons...

They will sneak into the most well protected pens and have a party

[David48]

For newbies take the time to read snip>

+1 ... I've ran out of likes for the moment.

Agreeing with the thrust of what you have written above ...

Just one point for discussion from my perspective ... renting the Farmland.

The Farm father rents ALL his ponds.

But that is a situation that works for him personally because he rents from relatives who live or work away from the Farm.

That said, the Farm house is one the one land owned by the Parents.

My point about sometimes renting is that what happens in the situation where the Farm Enterprise has failed to make a profit and what is left after a few years is a land holding in your (usually) wife's name of which you have no control ... but a lot of sunk capital.

But I don't wish to get carried away with the 'renting' bit ... just an option for some, but not many or all.

@ cornishcarlos ... I'm sure the a wayward python or trouser snake has been the undoing of more then one Farmer ...

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[zeichen]

yeah, my point with renting was just to do small scale with minimal start up costs. Once you work out the kinks, then go to large scale and invest in land.

"I wouldn't even consider renting land,i've see thais plant crops on others land,get to harvest stage and the proper owner comes along to take the crop."

Again, not in my experience but I know the people that I rent from. Same could happen if you owned the land. There are poachers everywhere. but less risk if you are well liked and known in your community. People tend to protect their own.

[farmerjo]

Dont get me wrong its good for people who come to thailand and need an interest to keep busy,have a go at farming.

I cant say about aquaculture as i have no experience but as far as cropping goes if you have land you can gear up for the right machinery to buy.

If you rent you are likely to buy smaller gear then have to upgrade at a later stage.(thats where i've burnt alot of baht)

If you dont have machinery you will be able to simplfy your costs as everything is contracted.

Timing is everything in farming and the risk of paying for labour at the right time will decrease profits.

[Jotham79]

1. Before you buy land try to observe in in a rainy season and dry season. Water (too much and too little) is a major factor. Having a good supply of water allows for 2-3 crops a year.

2. I recommend crops with fairly stable prices (I have experience with rice and corn). Also look to what is being done profitably in your area as climate and market is a factor.

3. Becareful not to compete with locals, but complement them. If you go in and start screwing up a local market (or screw with one of the big boys) you may have problems. If you spend money in the local village and hire local people you are viewed more as a resource.

4. Look to future development. Will there likely be an upgrade in land title, construction of road or water source, or will there be any reason for land prices to change?

5. Location. Cassava or rubber may be a good crop, but how far are you from processing facilities. Also, will the local market be able to absorb your product? RBH has an excellent operation, but if I tried that in my location, i simply couldn't move the volume. A little difference is costs or prices can mean a big difference in profit.

6. In addition to haveing good relations with local farmers develop a relationship with village and district heads.

7. Don't fight mother nature. Other than developing a good water source (btw check what the water table is like)be cautious about remodeling land. I put some fruit trees on some rice paddy land and would have made more money in rice. Don't confuse thinking something can happe with it really being possible.

8. Visit other operations and see what is working and why.

9. What worked in your home country may not work here. The climate is not the same, the market is not the same, the resources are not the same and managing labor is not the same.

10. Consider taking all the money you will put into farming (land, start up costs,.....) and find yourself a good secure dividend stock. Especially if you can't afford to lose.

Good luck

[David48]

^^ Another excellent post ...

OH ... I got my likes back.

To those wishing to contribute.

Just 01 tip or 10 tips ... just positive contributions which, when read, might save a budding Farmers ass one day in the future.

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[shaggy1969]

All good tips already mentioned above.

One important thing that has not been mentioned is the other half (wife, g/f)and her family.

Make sure that your other half is behind you and supports you 100% and as crazy as it sounds....that you trust her 100% after all everything is going to be in her name.

The family also can make a big difference are they going to help or hinder you.....I know from my own experience that good intentions at the start don't always turn out that way in the end.

[itchybum]

Hire good Burmese workers, married couples or families.

[David48]

Hire good Burmese workers, married couples or families.

So that the Farmer stays within Thailand Laws ... what exactly are the laws in relation to hiring non-Thais?

This is one area that I have zero knowledge.

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[Bluetongue]

Don't grow cucumbers unless you have enough water. In fact in your early days you will probably be inundated with schemes to make money, best to wait I feel. If you have a core business concentrate on that to start with.

Farming is a bit like gambling don't put in more than you can afford to lose

Keep a record of prices and always enquire about prices in other shops you enter and what other people pay. Thais do this but seem to have a much better verbal memory than I do, but keep no records at all. I can't trust my memory to do this, in fact I also keep a simple diary of activities as I have found my wife and other Thais tend to be much more random and impulsive as far as timing doing things go such as irrigating or fertilising etc

If you buy cheap equipment it probably wont last or if it does it will be covered in rubber bands. Learn to do the simple maintenance and repairs yourself but don't overestimate your abilities, find a reasonably reliable and priced shop to do things for you too.

[farmerjo]

All good tips already mentioned above.

One important thing that has not been mentioned is the other half (wife, g/f)and her family.

Make sure that your other half is behind you and supports you 100% and as crazy as it sounds....that you trust her 100% after all everything is going to be in her name.

The family also can make a big difference are they going to help or hinder you.....I know from my own experience that good intentions at the start don't always turn out that way in the end.

Could not agree more shaggy.

I brought land that had nothing to do with the family.Also my wife and i built a modest shack on it,this being 2.5 km's from her family home.We lived with no power for 6 months on two stroke oil cans with wicks for light.Once we new our commiment was true we pressed ahead with minimal family infulence to create what we have today.Nothing happened overnight other than land purchasing and machinery,everything else has come year by year.

My mil tried to split us up after 6 months,i'm happy my tw stayed true to me,even with my mil turning up to our land at least 4 days a week i have not and will never speak to her again.My tw understands i've seen quite a lot around the world and mil has never left the village so she knows who is paying the bills.

[kickstart]

I first rented land about 9 years ago we put some down to grass for the cattle,then about 17 Rie to maize and mungbeans ,the misses has had a lot of experience with maize and mung beans which helped I did the cattle, the rent was 600bart/rai or 300 bart per crop we did OK, then sugar cane and carssava come along,rent prices doubled there was no way we could compeat doing what what we where doing, so we where outed.

The investment was to big for us,would have had to contract every thing out reducing overall margins, ie. a machine to cut the cane,and haulage to the mill 350 bart/ton this year.all so I had no interest in cassava or sugar cane,and we had no experience,

So my tip ,first thing find what land rents are ,then budget on what you can grow . OK if it is Isan may only be rice,but round here it is every thing and they is a market for it all close by,if you can afford it.

Thai farmer's have Tor-Kor-Sor/Om-sin,loan's and debt's thay can never pay back,they some how keep going.The farang, has what he has in his back pocket, so to speak, so it it all more important he makes the right move, I think it has to start with land rent.

With land prices going as they are, up, and exchange rates as they are I would not buy land , at this time.

Yours.

KS

[Jotham79]

I agree that personal experience makes a big difference. I'd also like to mention:

1. Don't completely discount the Thai way of doing things.

2. I would not be afraid of a single crop. Most likely there is a "best" activity for your area and shotgunning alot of ways may just give you more ways to lose money. I have forgotten everything we have tried (and lost money on) and now am slowly going to corn as the main crop on the farm. If you look at people that are making money, they specialize in 1 thing....RBH does the catfish....Monkeypants does chinkens...ect...

[farmerjo]

I first rented land about 9 years ago we put some down to grass for the cattle,then about 17 Rie to maize and mungbeans ,the misses has had a lot of experience with maize and mung beans which helped I did the cattle, the rent was 600bart/rai or 300 bart per crop we did OK, then sugar cane and carssava come along,rent prices doubled there was no way we could compeat doing what what we where doing, so we where outed.

The investment was to big for us,would have had to contract every thing out reducing overall margins, ie. a machine to cut the cane,and haulage to the mill 350 bart/ton this year.all so I had no interest in cassava or sugar cane,and we had no experience,

So my tip ,first thing find what land rents are ,then budget on what you can grow . OK if it is Isan may only be rice,but round here it is every thing and they is a market for it all close by,if you can afford it.

Thai farmer's have Tor-Kor-Sor/Om-sin,loan's and debt's thay can never pay back,they some how keep going.The farang, has what he has in his back pocket, so to speak, so it it all more important he makes the right move, I think it has to start with land rent.

With land prices going as they are, up, and exchange rates as they are I would not buy land , at this time.

Yours.

KS

Would be interesting to see what areas of thailand have viable sizes to rent.Where we are every bit is tied up growing something as to say 5 years ago only 60 percent was being used,sugar has played a big part in that.

[soidog2]

Valiant effort at creating an interesting thread but going at it backwards.

The dos and don'ts are difficult or impossible to determine before you decide what you actually want to farm and where.

Local conditions are extremely important; what works in one place, will not somewhere else for similar crops.

The human factor is a big variable together with local weather ETC.

I would only recommend renting land in order to learn the trade.

Most land available for rent is neglected by its owners, lacks nutrition; needs work to retain water; hard to get a decent yield and be profitable.

Unfortunately; good land is very expensive, you better have a business plan before you invest.

The generalities mentioned by others are all good as long as properly applied.

[phuketsub]

I am new to this forum, but plan to give 'farming' a go when I semi-retire to my wife's village in coastal Songkhla, where she has a small plot of what appears (to me anyway) to be arable land.

I have 25 years of experience of living and working in Thailand and am fluent in the language, but no background in gardening or farming whatsoever.

I really just want to keep busy and would like to grow the things I like and consume a lot of: coffee beans, durien, Thai pumpkin...I think it is probably too late/impractical for me to have any ambitions to produce cash crops -- I just want to be self-sufficient in crops that are the easiest to grow: I just don't know what they are.

A lot of people in her area also raise oxen, and I am kind of interested in doing that too...but that might be too much of a time commitment -- I simply don't know what it entails because, once again, this is another area I have no expertise in whatsoever.

Anyway, any advice to this greenhorn would be most appreciated.

[farmerjo]

Valiant effort at creating an interesting thread but going at it backwards.

The dos and don'ts are difficult or impossible to determine before you decide what you actually want to farm and where.

Local conditions are extremely important; what works in one place, will not somewhere else for similar crops.

The human factor is a big variable together with local weather ETC.

I would only recommend renting land in order to learn the trade.

Most land available for rent is neglected by its owners, lacks nutrition; needs work to retain water; hard to get a decent yield and be profitable.

Unfortunately; good land is very expensive, you better have a business plan before you invest.

The generalities mentioned by others are all good as long as properly applied.

Very good points here,and as mentioned soil fertility.

We talk about business and rent v owning,my view is the business model looks more sound owning the land as its not just what you earn yearly but as a whole package(landbanking).

But as kickstart said with prices as they are today,unless you brought land 5 or more years ago i think you've missed the boat.

[Canada]

Do as much of your own work as you can.

Actively supervise Thai workers.

Pay by the job if you know the job or going rates. Otherwise pay by the day.

Have a neutral person (ie. wifey ) relay comments or criticisms ...even if you speak the language well, until you fully understand Thai people and culture.

Good tools and equipment are expensive. Spend your money wisely.

My experience with farming from afar was a disaster. I wouldn't recommend it.

If you have a large operation, getting good help will be your obstacle. If it isn't, you are lucky. If you find good help, treat them well.

If you don't trust your wife, don't do it.

If you don't speak the language (Thai) start learning; unless you like wandering around wondering what the <deleted> is going on.

There is wisdom in the locals. They do what they do based on their experience and having very little to invest. Learn why they do what they do.

Those are my ten helpful hints of the day. Have a good night all.

D

[Canada]

One other thing....

....renting land. Before I did start buying things (houses and property) I rented for a few years. I would be very cautious renting from Thai landlords. The world is full of good and bad,it's not just Thais. The problem here is that legal recourse is not a really a great option.

Having said that, I'll say this. If I could rent the land that I own for current rent prices, I would. In fact we are looking to rent land in the coming year. For us, we have all the equipment that we need already and we already own a substantial amount of land. Renting land from here on in is a cheap way to increase our production/income.

[Bluetongue]

I am new to this forum, but plan to give 'farming' a go when I semi-retire to my wife's village in coastal Songkhla, where she has a small plot of what appears (to me anyway) to be arable land.

I have 25 years of experience of living and working in Thailand and am fluent in the language, but no background in gardening or farming whatsoever.

I really just want to keep busy and would like to grow the things I like and consume a lot of: coffee beans, durien, Thai pumpkin...I think it is probably too late/impractical for me to have any ambitions to produce cash crops -- I just want to be self-sufficient in crops that are the easiest to grow: I just don't know what they are.

A lot of people in her area also raise oxen, and I am kind of interested in doing that too...but that might be too much of a time commitment -- I simply don't know what it entails because, once again, this is another area I have no expertise in whatsoever.

Anyway, any advice to this greenhorn would be most appreciated.

Mate you'll be alright, you speak the language, you've been here a long time. But I personally am not a big fan of durian as it made me quite ill one rare night drinking a bit of whisky with it. But it will take a few years to grow trees and fruit. What do other farmers grow in the area. You'll have plenty of time while they are growing to research techniques. If you do it properly you will get more than enough fruit for yourself all at once so a bit of pocket cash anyway. I don't know about coffee but veggies will be OK, you may need water though if it doesn't rain, they will keep you busy while you wait for the king of fruit. PS up here in Chantaburi now there is durian coming out of our earholes but I don't grow it.