Russia's anti-gay laws have teeth -- gay priders assaulted

[Jingthing]

http://news.yahoo.com/dozens-arrested-gay-pride-rally-russia-163326854.html

About 200 nationalists also gathered at the rally, chanting slogans such as "Sodomy will not pass," and throwing eggs and rocks at the gay-rights activists, who numbered about 40.

...

A widespread hostility to homosexuality is shared by much of Russia's elite. Lawmakers have accused gays of decreasing Russia's already low birth rates and said they should be barred from government jobs, undergo forced medical treatment or be exiled.

This is depressing.

At the same time gays in the USA have made such dramatic progress, Russia appears to be going seriously backwards.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

I can't see why you find it disheartening. The gay activists knew what they were in for when they staged the gay pride event. They knew much better than we do what public opinion in Russia is like.

On the other hand, you should find it encouraging that the people who attacked them were arrested as well. There are plenty of places where that wouldn't have happened.

[Jingthing]

I reserve the right to feel disheartened.

[Jingthing]

From Russia with homophobia.

More reasons to be disheartened about what's happening in Russia.

Their anti-gay laws also apply to tourists!

I wasn't going anyway but still ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/11/russia-gay-law-tourists-_n_3581217.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Travel site Skift reports that the new law, signed into law by Russian President Vladimir Putin on June 30, contains a provision that allows the government to arrest and detain gay (or "pro-gay") foreigners for up to 14 days before they would then be expelled from Russia.

As far as what is considered "pro-gay," the laws specifics are somewhat vague, but Canadian site Travel and Escape suggests "gay-affirmative" speech, displaying a rainbow flag and same-sex partners holding hands are among the prohibited actions.

[mingalaba]

Well most Russians are anti-gay...The government is anti-gay too... Whats surprising about it? Would it be better if the government was pro-gay like the west and thus not representing the majority of the people?

[Jingthing]

Well most Russians are anti-gay...The government is anti-gay too... Whats surprising about it? Would it be better if the government was pro-gay like the west and thus not representing the majority of the people?

It would be better if they were at least more tolerant of diversity, yes and respecting basic standards of HUMAN RIGHTS. The extreme anti-gay laws that have recently developed in Russia are somewhat surprising, I think.

As far as the tourism aspect, I think it's great if openly gay international athletes compete at Sochi because that will shed light on the severely anti-gay Russian laws to the world. Apart from that, I personally would hope gay tourists and all supporters of human rights would simply boycott the country for tourism and beyond. French vodka isn't that bad.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Jingthing

[geriatrickid]

Well most Russians are anti-gay...The government is anti-gay too... Whats surprising about it? Would it be better if the government was pro-gay like the west and thus not representing the majority of the people?

Pro-gay?

Why must some people insist on categorizing everything?

The "west" is not pro gay. Rather, there is an inclination towards the respect of basic human rights in many western countries.

Ensuring equitable treatment under the laws of a country is hardly "pro-gay".

A responsible government does not necessarily represent the majority of the people. Rather it's role is to SERVE all of the people and to ensure that all the citizens it serves are treated equitably. Civics 101.

By your logic, government edicts such as the Nuremburg laws, or the Jim Crow laws, or Apartheid laws were acceptable since a majority were in favour.

[Jingthing]

I think to many with anti-gay sentiments, governments that support equal human and civil rights for gay people are seen as pro-gay.

[LeCharivari]

Well most Russians are anti-gay...The government is anti-gay too... Whats surprising about it? Would it be better if the government was pro-gay like the west and thus not representing the majority of the people?

I've got to agree with geriatrickid 100% - the west isn't "pro-gay" so much as pro human rights (in some cases, but far from all) for all the population; ignore that and only respect the "majority of the people" and you're back with Bosnia/Serbia, Rwanda, etc and ethnic cleansing.

... and applying laws to tourists is hardly likely to be "surprising" to most people as few countries have any sort of "tourist exemption" for anything illegal.

[onthemoon]

Well most Russians are anti-gay...The government is anti-gay too... Whats surprising about it? Would it be better if the government was pro-gay like the west and thus not representing the majority of the people?

The West is not pro-gay. It is less anti-gay than it used to be, that's all.

What is wrong with equal rights and mutual acceptance I wonder, mingalaba?

[mingalaba]

Well most Russians are anti-gay...The government is anti-gay too... Whats surprising about it? Would it be better if the government was pro-gay like the west and thus not representing the majority of the people?

The West is not pro-gay. It is less anti-gay than it used to be, that's all.

What is wrong with equal rights and mutual acceptance I wonder, mingalaba?

The west is pro gay in the way that it allows same-sex marriages. With "Pro-Gay" I don´t mean that the government is actively trying to encourage people to become gay.

[mingalaba]

Well most Russians are anti-gay...The government is anti-gay too... Whats surprising about it? Would it be better if the government was pro-gay like the west and thus not representing the majority of the people?

Pro-gay?

Why must some people insist on categorizing everything?

The "west" is not pro gay. Rather, there is an inclination towards the respect of basic human rights in many western countries.

Ensuring equitable treatment under the laws of a country is hardly "pro-gay".

A responsible government does not necessarily represent the majority of the people. Rather it's role is to SERVE all of the people and to ensure that all the citizens it serves are treated equitably. Civics 101.

By your logic, government edicts such as the Nuremburg laws, or the Jim Crow laws, or Apartheid laws were acceptable since a majority were in favour.

This is just your western way to look at things. Not everyone country has to follow the mantra of equal rights for everyone. Russians don´t want the same rights for gays so it´s their right to have laws that represent this desire. I don´t see the problem. I find it really annoying that western governments and people think that only their values (or lack thereof) are best and they need to be forced upon every country. It´s a bit like modern-day colonialism. The same applies for feminism and other western export products.

And by the way, I don´t hate gay-people, they can do whatever they want, it´s none of my business. I respect everyone. I just don´t like the idea that western values must be forced upon every country and that if a country refuses to accept that, the country is evil and backward.

[Jingthing]

This is just your western way to look at things. Not everyone country has to follow the mantra of equal rights for everyone. Russians don´t want the same rights for gays so it´s their right to have laws that represent this desire. I don´t see the problem. I find it really annoying that western governments and people think that only their values (or lack thereof) are best and they need to be forced upon every country. It´s a bit like modern-day colonialism. The same applies for feminism and other western export products.

And by the way, I don´t hate gay-people, they can do whatever they want, it´s none of my business. I respect everyone. I just don´t like the idea that western values must be forced upon every country and that if a country refuses to accept that, the country is evil and backward.

OK, so you think it is "OK" for countries to blatantly discriminate against gay people and women.

How far do you take your moral relativism?

Is it "OK" for countries to blatantly discriminate against different races?

Different religions?

Is it "OK" for countries to have the death penalty for being gay?

The death penalty for not ratting out a gay person, even if it's your child?

Who is "forcing" western values on Russia?

Is expressing disapproval with their bigoted laws forcing by any stretch of the imagination?

[mingalaba]

This is just your western way to look at things. Not everyone country has to follow the mantra of equal rights for everyone. Russians don´t want the same rights for gays so it´s their right to have laws that represent this desire. I don´t see the problem. I find it really annoying that western governments and people think that only their values (or lack thereof) are best and they need to be forced upon every country. It´s a bit like modern-day colonialism. The same applies for feminism and other western export products.

And by the way, I don´t hate gay-people, they can do whatever they want, it´s none of my business. I respect everyone. I just don´t like the idea that western values must be forced upon every country and that if a country refuses to accept that, the country is evil and backward.

OK, so you think it is "OK" for countries to blatantly discriminate against gay people and women.

How far do you take your moral relativism?

Is it "OK" for countries to blatantly discriminate against different races?

Different religions?

Is it "OK" for countries to have the death penalty for being gay?

The death penalty for not ratting out a gay person, even if it's your child?

Who is "forcing" western values on Russia?

Is expressing disapproval with their bigoted laws forcing by any stretch of the imagination?

You find it wrong that countries are discriminating against gays... People of other countries find it wrong that gay-marriage is legal in some countries.

Your values are not universally true. This is all I wanted to say...

And yes if a majority of Russians is against gay-marriage and gay-rights then I think that´s the way the laws in Russia should be like. If I like it or not but that´s the way it should be. Who am I to judge how Russian people should think like?

And what do women have to do with anything? I was talking about modern-day feminism, which has nothing to do with discriminating women.

[Jingthing]

The topic of the thread isn't about dissing on Russia specifically for not having legal gay marriage.

The majority of the world doesn't. Nothing special about Russia in that regard.

RATHER, it's about recently passed draconian anti-gay laws in Russia.

Not having gay marriage is one thing and really not the focus of this Russia topic.

Criminalization of gay stuff is another level.

What's going on in Russia is active aggressive OPPRESSION of gay people.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

Well most Russians are anti-gay...The government is anti-gay too... Whats surprising about it? Would it be better if the government was pro-gay like the west and thus not representing the majority of the people?

The West is not pro-gay. It is less anti-gay than it used to be, that's all.

What is wrong with equal rights and mutual acceptance I wonder, mingalaba?

The west is pro gay in the way that it allows same-sex marriages. With "Pro-Gay" I don´t mean that the government is actively trying to encourage people to become gay.

Equal right means just that: "equal". Neither "pro" nor "anti".

JT likes to compare the gay rights issue in the world to the black rights issue in the US, and I agree. Back then, when blacks where confined to the back seats in the buses, you would be considered pro-black if you said they were people just like us. Today, if you say blacks and whites should have the same rights, it is considered a natural fact of equality.

[LeCharivari]

This is just your western way to look at things. Not everyone country has to follow the mantra of equal rights for everyone. Russians don´t want the same rights for gays so it´s their right to have laws that represent this desire. I don´t see the problem. I find it really annoying that western governments and people think that only their values (or lack thereof) are best and they need to be forced upon every country. It´s a bit like modern-day colonialism. The same applies for feminism and other western export products.

And by the way, I don´t hate gay-people, they can do whatever they want, it´s none of my business. I respect everyone. I just don´t like the idea that western values must be forced upon every country and that if a country refuses to accept that, the country is evil and backward.

OK, so you think it is "OK" for countries to blatantly discriminate against gay people and women.

How far do you take your moral relativism?

Is it "OK" for countries to blatantly discriminate against different races?

Different religions?

Is it "OK" for countries to have the death penalty for being gay?

The death penalty for not ratting out a gay person, even if it's your child?

Who is "forcing" western values on Russia?

Is expressing disapproval with their bigoted laws forcing by any stretch of the imagination?

You find it wrong that countries are discriminating against gays... People of other countries find it wrong that gay-marriage is legal in some countries.

Your values are not universally true. This is all I wanted to say...

And yes if a majority of Russians is against gay-marriage and gay-rights then I think that´s the way the laws in Russia should be like. If I like it or not but that´s the way it should be. Who am I to judge how Russian people should think like?

And what do women have to do with anything? I was talking about modern-day feminism, which has nothing to do with discriminating women.

You seem to be confusing a number of issues here.

"Gay rights" are not, generally speaking, about "gay marriage". The number of countries in "the West" with gay marriage is comparatively small and gay marriage is also recognised in South Africa and four countries on the American continent - 16 countries in all world-wide, with a further 14 recognising some form of Civil Union. It is a controversial subject, not least among gays, and many gays do not see it as a basic "gay right", at least in comparison with other far more basic human rights and very few countries if any have any interest in influencing other countries to adopt gay marriage.

This isn't about any sort of "equality" or "equal rights" - its about basic, fundamental human rights.

The "gay rights" that are now illegal or bordering on illegal in Russia (and in a number of other countries) are far more fundamental than "gay marriage" or "equal rights", but include the basic right to live with and have a sexual relationship, in private, with the consenting adult of your own choice; in other countries the "gay right" is even more basic, as it is as fundamental as the right to live.

What you appear to be saying is that if the majority of people find a minority unacceptable then they have a right to treat them as they want and that no-one else has any right to "judge" their actions. Do you approve of the Hutus killing some 800,000 Tutsis in Rwanda just because they made up the majority of the population? Or Serbs killing Croats and vice-versa? Do you honestly think "that´s the way it should be" - because that's what you seem to be saying?

[LeCharivari]

Sorry about the double post above - could a mod delete one, please?

mingalaba, I can't help thinking that your posts have more to do with disapproving of "the west" "forcing" its values on other countries than with Russia's new anti-gay laws, which are specifically and unusually "anti-gay" rather than just not "pro-gay". I say unusually because culturally and historically Russia has far more in common with "the west" than it does with other countries with similar anti-gay laws which are largely African and middle eastern.

If that's your view, maybe it would be better discussed in the http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/647712-interesting-new-flavor-of-backlash-in-the-us-reverse-bigotry-panic/ thread, where that point has already been raised in connection with Uganda and other countries, where its rather more relevant.

[Jingthing]

Some strong words from famous Jewish gay American playwright and actor, Harvey Fierstein:

Mr. Putin’s true motives lie elsewhere. Historically this kind of scapegoating is used by politicians to solidify their bases and draw attention away from their failing policies, and no doubt this is what’s happening in Russia. Counting on the natural backlash against the success of marriage equality around the world and recruiting support from conservative religious organizations, Mr. Putin has sallied forth into this battle, figuring that the only opposition he will face will come from the left, his favorite boogeyman.

Mr. Putin’s campaign against lesbian, gay and bisexual people is one of distraction, a strategy of demonizing a minority for political gain taken straight from the Nazi playbook. Can we allow this war against human rights to go unanswered? Although Mr. Putin may think he can control his creation, history proves he cannot: his condemnations are permission to commit violence against gays and lesbians. In May a young gay man was murdered in the city of Volgograd. He was beaten, his body violated with beer bottles, his clothing set on fire, his head crushed with a rock. This is most likely just the beginning.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/opinion/russias-anti-gay-crackdown.html

He calls for international pressure against Russia's vile anti-gay laws at Sochi. I totally agree!

The weak isolationist idea that international human rights advocates such just accept what's happening in Russia as their business and ignore it I totally reject!

Edited July 23, 2013 by Jingthing

[Suradit69]

36 Photos From Russia That Everyone Needs To See

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/photos-from-russia-everyone-needs-to-see

[LeCharivari]

Some strong words from famous Jewish gay American playwright and actor, Harvey Fierstein:

Mr. Putin’s true motives lie elsewhere. Historically this kind of scapegoating is used by politicians to solidify their bases and draw attention away from their failing policies, and no doubt this is what’s happening in Russia. Counting on the natural backlash against the success of marriage equality around the world and recruiting support from conservative religious organizations, Mr. Putin has sallied forth into this battle, figuring that the only opposition he will face will come from the left, his favorite boogeyman.

Mr. Putin’s campaign against lesbian, gay and bisexual people is one of distraction, a strategy of demonizing a minority for political gain taken straight from the Nazi playbook. Can we allow this war against human rights to go unanswered? Although Mr. Putin may think he can control his creation, history proves he cannot: his condemnations are permission to commit violence against gays and lesbians. In May a young gay man was murdered in the city of Volgograd. He was beaten, his body violated with beer bottles, his clothing set on fire, his head crushed with a rock. This is most likely just the beginning.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/opinion/russias-anti-gay-crackdown.html

He calls for international pressure against Russia's vile anti-gay laws at Sochi. I totally agree!

The weak isolationist idea that international human rights advocates such just accept what's happening in Russia as their business and ignore it I totally reject!

Mr Fierstein doesn't seem to realise two things:

Firstly, these are not "Mr Putin" 's policies - they started at local/municipal level with local laws; as a staunch supporter of the Russian orthodox church his motivation over gay rights is probably far more genuine than that of his opposite numbers elsewhere and is not just politically motivated.

Secondly, interference by the West at the moment would be totally counter-productive and would not only make things far worse for gays in Russia but would strengthen Putin's position politically. This was demonstrated very clearly by the reaction to Western interference in Uganda when anti-gay laws were introduced, leading to the headline "Take your white hands off Uganda's gay rights" and pleas from the CSCHRCL (Uganda’s civil and gay rights lobby) not to interfere and make things worse - pleas the West (most notably the USA and Canada) ignored.

There is a time for "international pressure" and this is not it.

[Jingthing]

SOCHI is the perfect time to put international pressure on Russia. Uganda is not Russia, even if what you say about Uganda is really the truth, which I strongly doubt. It sounds more about supporting an isolationist head in the sand agenda that international human rights activists should just never do anything, anywhere, anytime. Fooey on that! I would agree it's a good idea to COMMUNICATE with the people in the target countries and see how they feel about international pressure, whether they welcome it or not. I would bet BIG RUBLES the Russian gay activists WANT international attention!

Edited July 25, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

The topic is Russia.

If you want to talk Uganda, do it in a Uganda thread.

Back to the actual topic, I have learned a group of gay Russians in the U.S. are calling for a U.S. boycott of the Sochi games.

http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/gay-russians-call-sochi-winter-olympics-boycott180613

Does this reflect actual feeling of gay people in Russia or not?

A good example of how it is hard to know what the real feeling is in a foreign country.

I would say ignore the call for any boycotts. It's not going to happen anyway over the gay oppression issue. If it did happen it would be more about the Snowden incident and increased political tensions between the US and Russia, so as a gay activist tactic, it's stupid, no matter what this group of Russians says.

Better to GO and make a point to shine some international attention on the Russian laws.

What percentage of the world even knows about them? I'd say less than 1 percent.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Jingthing

[Naam]

I can't see why you find it disheartening. The gay activists knew what they were in for when they staged the gay pride event. They knew much better than we do what public opinion in Russia is like.

On the other hand, you should find it encouraging that the people who attacked them were arrested as well. There are plenty of places where that wouldn't have happened.

disheartening is that many gay activists do not realise that the perception of people will be much more sympathetic for their justified cause if their activities are not focussed on "gay pride parades" which are usually carried out in a manner that many, even gays, find repulsive.

[Jingthing]

I can't see why you find it disheartening. The gay activists knew what they were in for when they staged the gay pride event. They knew much better than we do what public opinion in Russia is like.

On the other hand, you should find it encouraging that the people who attacked them were arrested as well. There are plenty of places where that wouldn't have happened.

disheartening is that many gay activists do not realise that the perception of people will be much more sympathetic for their justified cause if their activities are not focussed on "gay pride parades" which are usually carried out in a manner that many, even gays, find repulsive.

The repressive Russian laws are about MUCH MORE than disallowing gay pride parades.

It's interesting that you use the word repulsive. That's a word often used by anti-gay political activists to "justify" their actions. They claim they are "repulsed" by gay people, by the idea of gay sex, by seeing men showing affection for each other in public. Gay pride parades may be visible but these bigots don't need such parades to feel this "repulsion" and act on it. For many the very existence of gay people offends them. That's the kind of toxic hatred so many gay people are fighting today in many countries in the world.

Russia perhaps was very a mecca for gay liberation per se but it has gone backwards into an era of active repression of gay people.

I hear you that you don't like gay paraded and it is true some gay people don't like them either. But I think that is its own topic (and there are topics here already on the forum about those issues). I don't think it is valid to condemn gay parades wholesale but I suggest if you're really that interested in that discreet topic that in THIS topic the focus really isn't gay parades but rather Russia's LAWS.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Jingthing

[Naam]

I suggest if you're really that interested in that discreet topic that in THIS topic the focus really isn't gay parades but rather Russia's LAWS

old story with you JT. you see something that you perceive negative to your cause and then either start hairsplitting or go verbally berserk.

yawwwnnn...

[isanbirder]

You suggest, JT, that Russian gay activists want Western interference.

That may be so, but it does not mean that that is the best way to foster a more liberal attitude to gays by the Russian public and officialdom.

[Naam]

Russia...

What began as a peaceful march…

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/photos-from-russia-everyone-needs-to-see

[Jingthing]

You suggest, JT, that Russian gay activists want Western interference.

That may be so, but it does not mean that that is the best way to foster a more liberal attitude to gays by the Russian public and officialdom.

Based on what do you make that presumption?

Does that come from specific knowledge of Russia or a knee jerk distaste for gays making waves?

You use the word interference. That is a LOADED word.

Focusing international attention is not the same as interference.

Foreigners wouldn't have the ability to "interfere" in Russia even if they wanted to.

Gays are being scapegoated in Russia.

I find it really sad to hear the voices of "conservative" gays that the world should just IGNORE it.

You know it's not really a coincidence that Jewish gays from America such as Fierstein, the majority of which have some kind of connection to Russia in their ancestry would have a strong feeling about a minority group being persecuted in Russia.

I remember well the SAVE SOVIET JEWRY campaigns.

That wasn't wrong back then and support for Russian gays isn't wrong TODAY either.

Activism is NOT a dirty word. So much of the progress in human rights in the world is because of activism. It can come from low, and it can come from high, from people such as Hillary Clinton.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I suggest if you're really that interested in that discreet topic that in THIS topic the focus really isn't gay parades but rather Russia's LAWS

old story with you JT. you see something that you perceive negative to your cause and then either start hairsplitting or go verbally berserk.

yawwwnnn...

The thing is your post implied the problem is Russia is gay parades. That is bloody wrong. The problem is horribly repressive LAWS. Gays in Russia are being persecuted. Whining that you don't like parades trivializes this horror to a triviality.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Jingthing