Russia's anti-gay laws have teeth -- gay priders assaulted

[Jingthing]

Yeah, I just posted the same news two posts ago.

But it's hard to know if its really true now with such conflicting info coming out.

Of course he can find right wing politicians in the USA easily to agree with extreme anti-gay bigotry but that doesn't mean there is any kind of U.S. majority support for anything like Russia's laws, not in a country now with majority opinion favoring legal gay MARRIAGE.

That Russian is just playing games with statements like that.

But yes this drama is just beginning.

This will become a much bigger international issue largely thanks to Sochi.

[Suradit69]

Yeah, I just posted the same news two posts ago.

But it's hard to know if its really true now with such conflicting info coming out.

Of course he can find right wing politicians in the USA easily to agree with extreme anti-gay bigotry but that doesn't mean there is any kind of U.S. majority support for anything like Russia's laws, not in a country now with majority opinion favoring legal gay MARRIAGE.

That Russian is just playing games with statements like that.

But yes this drama is just beginning.

This will become a much bigger international issue largely thanks to Sochi.

"Yeah, I just posted the same news two posts ago."

Oops.

I tend to very quickly scan any threads more than one page long before posting ... and I'm using "scan" in a rather loose sense.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Suradit69

[Jingthing]

At some international sporting events, just don't be gay.

Yeah, that's the ticket!

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/08/01/the_olympics_and_the_world_cup_don_t_care_if_their_gay_fans_get_thrown_in.html

Conflicts like these are bound to grow more common as the world becomes increasingly dichotomized vis-à-vis gay rights. Some countries believe gay people have a right to live openly and with dignity; some countries believe gay people belong in jail. There’s no real middle ground, and the sports world is deluding itself if it thinks it can find one. Organizations like FIFA have a much-ballyhooed self-mythology about breaking international boundaries while respecting local cultures. But when local cultures don’t respect gay fans and athletes, the sports world has to pick a side. So far, it’s chosen the side of the homophobes. And gay sports fans who don’t care to go back in the closet have no other option than to just go home.

[onthemoon]

I don't know whether the Russian vodka boycott by gay venues will have any effect, but I support the idea as a gesture. I first read about it in the main-stream press, so the PR machine is working.

I don't think any governments will refuse visas to Russian lawmakers because of this though. But god luck with the campaigns.

[Jingthing]

The USA might. Obama is very pro gay rights and now Russia and the USA have developed a rather serious conflict due to the Snowden insult.

[LeCharivari]

The possibility of banning Milonov from the USA or anywhere else is somewhere between nil and zero - this would mean also banning those from, say, Saudi Arabia where homosexuality is banned and gays are regularly sentenced to imprisonment and flogging for having gay sexual relations in private (although consistency is hardly a given where Saudi Arabia and gays are concerned: http://www.jpost.com/International/United-States-denies-asylum-to-gay-Saudi-diplomat ).

The suggestion that "... the government has no right to suspend it (a law). It doesn’t have the authority ..." is rather naive - the Russian President can suspend any law for a variety of reasons pending a court decision, and if he did so any court decision would be unlikely during the games fortnight.

[Jingthing]

The USA and Saudi aren't feuding right now. The USA and Russia ARE feuding right now. There is no obligation to be consistent in foreign policy! Egads!

[Jingthing]

Yes, SOCHI is the big opportunity.

The SOCHI story has only just begun --

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/08/02/anti_gay_laws_in_russia_why_gay_people_should_be_grateful_the_2014_olympics.html

Forget boycotting Russian vodka. The best way to protest Russia’s anti-gay legislation is to keep pointing out how heinous it is. Complain to your friends, to NBC, and to the IOC. On Feb. 23, 2014, when the Sochi Winter Olympics are over, Russian gays will be just as alone as their counterparts in Uganda or Zimbabwe. The next six months are a special opportunity, one we shouldn’t let go to waste.

[onthemoon]

The USA might. Obama is very pro gay rights and now Russia and the USA have developed a rather serious conflict due to the Snowden insult.

I think you want to say:" The USA might refuse visas to Russian diplomats because of the new gay legislation." Is that right?

Anyway, I wish you good luck if you really believe this. I don't think that any government will risk any economic or geopolitical goals just to support the gay community.

Edited August 3, 2013 by onthemoon

[Jingthing]

The USA might. Obama is very pro gay rights and now Russia and the USA have developed a rather serious conflict due to the Snowden insult.

I think you want to say:" The USA might refuse visas to Russian diplomats because of the new gay legislation." Is that right? Please quote (this software has a nice quote function) or at least write full sentences to avoid confusion. Thanks.

Anyway, I wish you good luck if you really believe this. I don't think that any government will risk any economic or geopolitical goals just to support the gay community.

I didn't say that because I didn't mean it so why do you insist I say something I didn't mean?

The reality is USA-Russia relations are toast largely due to the Snowden affair.

That opens up the possibility of a wide range of diplomatic moves, including against Russian anti-gay bigots, but the core of the conflict is obviously not gay rights.

P.S.: I know the software.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

The USA might. Obama is very pro gay rights and now Russia and the USA have developed a rather serious conflict due to the Snowden insult.

I think you want to say:" The USA might refuse visas to Russian diplomats because of the new gay legislation." Is that right? Please quote (this software has a nice quote function) or at least write full sentences to avoid confusion. Thanks.

Anyway, I wish you good luck if you really believe this. I don't think that any government will risk any economic or geopolitical goals just to support the gay community.

I didn't say that because I didn't mean it so why do you insist I say something I didn't mean?

The reality is USA-Russia relations are toast largely due to the Snowden affair.

That opens up the possibility of a wide range of diplomatic moves, including against Russian anti-gay bigots, but the core of the conflict is obviously not gay rights.

P.S.: I know the software.

I don't insist, I just asked whether this is what you meant because it wasn't clear from your posting. Thanks for the clarification.

[Jingthing]

News Flash!

Here is a fascinating analysis of the reasons behind dictator Putins ruthless political SCAPEGOATING of the gays of Russia.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/miriamelder/why-russia-turned-against-the-gays

In the absence of any ideology — any core belief to tie together the Russian state and nation — the easiest way to fill the vacuum has been by turning to the Russian Orthodox Church, a deeply corrupt, reactionary, and Kremlin-loving institution that has enjoyed a spike in support following the (atheist) Soviet Union’s collapse. Thus the arrest of Pussy Riot, the anti-Putin punk band whose members were sentenced to two years in prison for “hooliganism motivated by religious hatred.” Thus the law passed by the Duma just hours after the anti-gay law was passed, making “insulting religious believers” an offense punishable by up to three years in jail.

The second easiest thing has been to demonize the “Other,” creating an internal enemy for everyone to fear. Jews are out — Putin, who values loyalty above all, has had an affinity for Jews since childhood, when he was reportedly saved from being beaten up by street kids by a Jewish neighbor. Migrants are out — Russia needs millions of them in order to carry out the mass infrastructure projects that the country needs to keep its economy afloat; and the nationalist card is simply too dangerous to play with anyway. Who’s left? Gays.

Demonizing gays allows Putin to tell the “heartland”: I will protect you and your “traditional” families; you are the real Russia. It also grows suspicion of the liberal opposition, presented as fundamentally “un-Russian” as they stand up increasingly for gay rights amid Putin’s growing crackdown. And finally, it allows Russia to do what it does best these days: present itself as Not The West.

It is no accident that Russia is stripping away gay rights as (popular and legal) support for gay marriage in the U.S. and Europe grows. The West is decadent, permissive, and doomed to orgiastic decline. As Patriarch Kirill, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, recently put it: gay marriage is a “dangerous apocalyptic system” that leads a nation “on a path of self-destruction.”

And then there is Russia — not really standing for anything, but standing against a whole lot: gays, liberals, the West. It’s the strategy that Putin has chosen for his own survival.

[LeCharivari]

It sounds like they have some educational outreach work to do about what's happening in Russia.

...and which way to hold up their signs!

[LeCharivari]

News Flash!

Here is a fascinating analysis of the reasons behind dictator Putins ruthless political SCAPEGOATING of the gays of Russia.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/miriamelder/why-russia-turned-against-the-gays

An "analysis"?

Its nonsense, totally unsupported by the facts and by recent Russian history.

Putin hasn't "turned to the Russian Orthodox Church" - he's ALWAYS had their full and open support.

The law concerning "insulting religious believers" concerned not only the Russian Orthodox church but specifically identified Russia's four traditional faiths: Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Buddhism. It is now being revised to include "non-traditional" beliefs and atheism. Most people would see that as a "good thing".

Nobody has "demonized" gays as migrants and Jews have been "demonized" in the past - there is simply no comparison at all and this is totally contrived. Gays aren't being "blamed" for anything as migrants and Jews were - it simply isn't happening and there are no documented examples of this (or if there are I would like to see them and they should be readily available).

The idea that the "liberal opposition ... stand up increasingly for gay rights" is wishful thinking, at best - the PFP (the opposition) have been increasingly non-committal about any sort of gay rights and they all voted (very unusually) in support of the anti-gay laws.

Russians don't like gays - its as simple as that. Trying to make political capital out of it and to "demonize" Putin is simply making an issue which should be about human rights into a political one.

[Jingthing]

Politics isn't a dirty word.

It's the fabric of human life.

Yes OF COURSE fighting for human rights is directly related to politics. Duh.

And no, it is not bloody as simple as that. Russians may have always not liked gays, but why now, why these laws? POLITICS!

Edited August 3, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Politics isn't a dirty word.

It's the fabric of human life.

Yes OF COURSE fighting for human rights is directly related to politics. Duh.

And no, it is not bloody as simple as that. Russians may have always not liked gays, but why now, why these laws? POLITICS!

"Russians may have always not liked gays, but why now, why these laws?"

Already answered back in post # 41:

"Actually Naam is bloody right. The "problem" in Russia which started the whole series of bans and anti-gay laws WAS gay parades, starting with the 2005/6 Moscow Pride. That doesn't in any way justify the current laws, and whether it was a catalyst, a last straw or an excuse is debatable, but beyond any doubt gay parades was where the problem began."

You may not like the answer, but it is what it is - the previously accepted status quo was changed and the present laws were the result, and that's confirmed by Nikolai Alekseyev, by far Russia's most prominent gay rights campaigner:

"Homosexuality was decriminalized in Russia in 1993. From 1993 to 2005, the topic was mostly out of the political sphere. Gays were not really fighting for their rights for the last decade. Not until 2005, when our organization Gay Russia appeared, did it start to come back on the political agenda.

....We have managed to bring the issue of rights for homosexual people on the political agenda, which was not the case in 2005.

....So in two years we really managed to bring this issue into the political agenda. The Russian President Vladimir Putin for the first time said something on gay issues. This is the biggest achievement."

If you've got a bear in the garden that's ignoring you, you can either ignore it or provoke it and try to get it out of the garden; in this case there were four bears - the Russian Orthodox Church, Russian Sunni (orthodox) Muslims and Russian Orthodox Jews, plus all the Russian political parties (even Yabloko, the small Russian liberal party, which was and is non-committal about gay issues). Against the advice of other gays and gay activists, Nikolai Alekseyev and a few other gay activists decided that deliberate provocation was the best way to get rid of the bears and they organised gay prides (2005+) and campaigned for same-sex marriage (2009); the bears didn't like it and got grumpy. "These laws" are the result - whether you see that as an "achievement" or a case of bad timing depends on your point of view.

http://inthesetimes.com/article/3424/dark_side_of_russias_rainbow/

[LeCharivari]

Politics isn't a dirty word.

It's the fabric of human life.

Not, thank God, for the majority of us who have a life to get on with.

[Jingthing]

There he goes again.

Blame the persecuted for their persecution.

Frankly, that is outrageous.

I not only don't like it, I totally REJECT the concept. But thanks for sharing your opinion. I welcome diversity of opinion here, even opinion that insults the gay people of Russia by BLAMING them for their own persecution.

As a Jew, I can say we've always had Jews like that as well in places and times when Jews have been persecuted and scapegoated, but I can't say what we call them on a public forum.

For people that want a clear idea of the ACTUAL reasons gay Russians are being persecuted, I would suggest again to read the brilliant article of political analysis I posted before.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Politics isn't a dirty word.

It's the fabric of human life.

Not, thank God, for the majority of us who have a life to get on with.

You must not be speaking of yourself then because expressing opinions that politics is irrelevant is an intensely political POV.

[LeCharivari]

There he goes again.

Blame the persecuted for their persecution.

Frankly, that is outrageous.

I not only don't like it, I totally REJECT the concept. But thanks for sharing your opinion. I welcome diversity of opinion here, even opinion that insults the gay people of Russia by BLAMING them for their own persecution.

I'm not "blaming" anyone, certainly not "the gay people of Russia" who are on the receiving end and have done nothing to cause their persecution - simply answering your question.

If you don't like the answer, and that one or two gay activists who were totally unrepresentative of "the gay people of Russia" and who were warned about the consequences of their actions by some of "the gay people of Russia" may have been the reason for "why now, why these laws?" that's hardly my fault.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, though, but I think as far as the background to the current laws and LGBT issues in Russia are concerned Nikolai Alekseyev's opinion bears a little more weight than anybody's here - he is quite well known.

.

Edited August 3, 2013 by LeCharivari

[Jingthing]

The article is a good read. The people behind these laws are anti-gay bigots. You don't blame gays or gay activists for the persecution of gays; that is just morally wrong. THE bigots are the enemy, not our friends the pro gay rights activists! At least friends of what I consider proud self respecting pro gay rights gay people. I understand that does not include all gay people. It takes all kinds. Diversity, don't you know? The gay civil rights activists all over the world are ALSO fighting for those gay people who do not appreciate, even deride and demonize the gay activists. I guess they are kind of Christ-like that way ...

Edited August 3, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

The article is a good read. The people behind these laws are anti-gay bigots. You don't blame gays or gay activists for the persecution of gays; that is just morally wrong. THE bigots are the enemy, not our friends the pro gay rights activists! At least friends of what I consider proud self respecting pro gay rights gay people. I understand that does not include all gay people. It takes all kinds. Diversity, don't you know? The gay civil rights activists all over the world are ALSO fighting for those gay people who do not appreciate, even deride and demonize the gay activists. I guess they are kind of Christ-like that way ...

I'm not "blaming" ... "gays or gay activists for the persecution of gays" - that, as you rightly say, is down to those persecuting them.

What I am doing is saying that this was a reaction to deliberate provocation by Nikolai Alekseyev - provocation that other gays and gay activists warned him of but whose warnings he chose to ignore.

Don't take my word for it (obviously) but read his interview, which I previously gave brief excerpts from which you can find at http://inthesetimes.com/article/3424/dark_side_of_russias_rainbow/ where he makes it very clear that this provocation was deliberate and that he sees it as an achievement which he was responsible for - the interview was in 2009, though, so he may not be quite so willing now to acknowledge his responsibility to the Russian gays who are now being persecuted as a result of his "achievement".

"Christ-like" ...? I'm not sure I follow you there. Christ (so we are told) sacrificed himself to save the world; Alekseyev spends most of his time in Geneva with his Swiss partner and in the States, making his living as a professional "gay activist", leaving "the gay people of Russia" to suffer the consequences of his actions.

[Jingthing]

A bunch of Russian gay activists actively supporting all kinds of boycotts of Russia.

So much for thinking Russian gays don't want the attention and support of the west in their dark hour of need.

http://americablog.com/2013/07/23-russian-gay-activists-endorse-boycott-russian-vodka.html

Twenty-three leading gay and trans activists in Russia have endorsed the international boycott of Russian vodka that has exploded out of virtually nowhere in the past few days.

The activists also endorsed an overall boycott of Russian products, and a boycott of the 2014 Winter Olympic Games in Sochi, Russia, in response to Russia’s recent brutal crackdown on its gay and trans citizens.

These Russian gay activists can be assured of strong support from the mainstream CORE of global gay activists in their struggle against the anti-gay Putin dictatorship which is so unfairly scapegoating Russian gays.

The issue of boycotting Sochi I'm not so sure about because I see Sochi as a protest opportunity. Hopefully further meaningful communication can take place between the Russian gay activists and their international gay brothers in resistance against oppression, so that the best possible tactics can be agreed upon regarding Sochi.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Jingthing

[sustento]

I am so grateful that I live in a country where activists are rare.

[ToddWeston]

I am so grateful that I live in a country where activists are rare.

+1

I've never attended a rally or protest or parade and never will, I love sport and the Olympics is about something more than our desire of equality at home or abroad.

Edited August 5, 2013 by ToddWeston

[LeCharivari]

I am so grateful that I live in a country where activists are rare.

+1

I've never attended a rally or protest or parade and never will, I love sport and the Olympics is about something more than our desire of equality at home or abroad.

I've lost count of the numbers I've "attended"!

The only unifying factors were that a lot of people got hurt - some innocent, some not - and that a lot of innocent people suffered as a result.

[onthemoon]

I am so grateful that I live in a country where activists are rare.

+1

I've never attended a rally or protest or parade and never will, I love sport and the Olympics is about something more than our desire of equality at home or abroad.

I've lost count of the numbers I've "attended"!

The only unifying factors were that a lot of people got hurt - some innocent, some not - and that a lot of innocent people suffered as a result.

I attended many activist rallies/protests/parades, one even in uniform, and I recall only one that got violent and people got hurt.

All of these were in the 1970s/1980s in Europe though.

Edited August 6, 2013 by onthemoon

[LeCharivari]

We had different reasons for attending them ,OTM!

[Jingthing]

I used to attend a lot of demos. Never violent. Never even tear gassed.

Now RIOTS, those are different!

Edited August 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

A bunch of Russian gay activists actively supporting all kinds of boycotts of Russia.

So much for thinking Russian gays don't want the attention and support of the west in their dark hour of need.

http://americablog.com/2013/07/23-russian-gay-activists-endorse-boycott-russian-vodka.html

Twenty-three leading gay and trans activists in Russia have endorsed the international boycott of Russian vodka that has exploded out of virtually nowhere in the past few days.

The activists also endorsed an overall boycott of Russian products, and a boycott of the 2014 Winter Olympic Games in Sochi, Russia, in response to Russia’s recent brutal crackdown on its gay and trans citizens.

These Russian gay activists can be assured of strong support from the mainstream CORE of global gay activists in their struggle against the anti-gay Putin dictatorship which is so unfairly scapegoating Russian gays.

The issue of boycotting Sochi I'm not so sure about because I see Sochi as a protest opportunity. Hopefully further meaningful communication can take place between the Russian gay activists and their international gay brothers in resistance against oppression, so that the best possible tactics can be agreed upon regarding Sochi.

Not sure how "leading" or representative these 23 individuals are - looking down the list none of them are from any of the major Russian Gay or Human Rights groups.