Russia's anti-gay laws have teeth -- gay priders assaulted

[Jingthing]

President Obama's comments about SOCHI at his press conference just now:

I know that one question that’s been raised is, how do we approach the Olympics? I want to just make very clear right now, I do not think it’s appropriate to boycott the Olympics. We’ve got a bunch of Americans out there who are training hard, who are doing everything they can to succeed. Nobody’s more offended than me by some of the anti-gay and lesbian legislation that you’ve been seeing in Russia, but as I said just this week, I’ve spoken out against that not just with respect to Russia, but a number of other countries where we continue to do work with them, but we have a strong disagreement on this issue.

And one of the things I’m really looking forward to is maybe some gay and lesbian athletes bringing home the gold or silver or bronze, which I think would go a long way in rejecting the kind of attitudes that we’re seeing there. And if Russia doesn’t have gay or lesbian athletes, then that would probably make their team weaker.

No, I don't think this comment is strong enough but I wasn't really expecting much more. I think it's going to be up to the gay activists to make a stronger statement about this, probably AT Sochi. I don't think the Jesse Owens approach is good enough, even if there was a gay Jesse Owens.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

The Olympics is probably "too big to fail" but here is a smaller case. Miss Universe 2013 is set for Moscow. It seems to me that's something that COULD be moved much more easily.

http://www.change.org/petitions/miss-universe-org-move-your-2013-pageant-from-russia-because-of-anti-gay-laws

[Jingthing]

The pressure both on the IOC and the Russian government intensifies. Bravo to these gay ACTIVISTS!

"Ironically, the global outcry is transforming Sochi into an amazing platform for Russians and athletes to defy the law and speak out on gay rights," said All Out co-founder and executive director Andre Banks.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/07/world/europe/russia-gay-rights

Edited August 10, 2013 by Jingthing

[Simhne]

What is happening in Russia is an outrage and it is not only lgbt activists being victimised by Putin's regime, it is any form of progressive political expression inc Pussy Riot. There are plenty of voices in the country calling for a more open and just society and lgbt activists have always and across continents realised how equality on grounds of sexuality must be part of a wider struggle. This is why lgbt rights in S. Africa are relatively more advanced, because people stood up and made themselves recognised including from within the ANC. Russians shouldn't be stereotyped as dictated to by their church or their history when there are plenty of individuals prepared to oppose what is an oppressive regime.

Peter Tatchell, as usual I find expresses better how vital it is for a strategic approach to tackling homophobia. JT is right to remind us that Silence Equals Death. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/06/book-that-changed-me-peter-tatchell

 

Agreed - but Peter Tatchell and Nikolay Alekseev are very different.

 

 

... and I have to be honest, I have never heard of Silence Equals Death.  

 

I was doing other things at the time (1987), but looking it up I can't see the connection. 

 

From a very brief scan I think that campaign was planned to focus attention on the situation of those with AIDS (treatment, safe sex education, etc), it had very broad based support and, above all, their campaign was an "unusual experiment in the politics of participation - a mixture of the shrill and the shrewd" and they "held several soul-searching sessions to discuss its past and plot its future ... Act-Up's weekly meetings are an exercise in creative anarchy. There is no board and no paid staff. Anyone who shows up can vote. ..."

 

Essentially Act Up seems to be the absolute antithesis of the way Nikolay Alekseyev ran and saw things - there was no "shrewd",  just "shrill"; there was no "participation"; and nobody got a "vote".

 

The entire campaign in Russia is an abject lesson in how NOT to go about change and how much harm the wrong sort of activism can do to the people it purports to support.

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/03/nyregion/rude-rash-effective-act-up-shifts-aids-policy.html?pagewanted=4&src=pm

You're right the term was primarily used in aids activism but my recollection is that the general tenet was used in queer activist groups like OutRage in relation to campaigning for equality. Its interesting to see the fault lines around boycott or not the Olympics and I have to admit I'm not sure. Do you remember "the kiss" at eurovision and how the Russians threatened to boycott? (I imagine I'm pretty safe in assuming people on this thread were watching, I know JT was). That was so powerful, what if something similar was planned for the Olympics? I'm thinking of the "Kiss In" in Picadilly in the days when I dressed like Jimmy Somerville rather than Jimmy Hill, that was brilliant activism and produced some enduring images.

Either way the debate within and without Russia is how best to focus attention and bring about change, hopefully we all agree on that. There seems to be a lack of coherent, unified response from within Russia but I note that Greg Louganis is opposed to a boycott.

[Simhne]

I'm not sure what I feel more, anger or desperate sadness after reading this article. http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/08/the-20-most-shocking-anti-gay-news-stories-from-russia-so-far/

[LeCharivari]

What is happening in Russia is an outrage and it is not only lgbt activists being victimised by Putin's regime, it is any form of progressive political expression inc Pussy Riot. There are plenty of voices in the country calling for a more open and just society and lgbt activists have always and across continents realised how equality on grounds of sexuality must be part of a wider struggle. This is why lgbt rights in S. Africa are relatively more advanced, because people stood up and made themselves recognised including from within the ANC. Russians shouldn't be stereotyped as dictated to by their church or their history when there are plenty of individuals prepared to oppose what is an oppressive regime.

Peter Tatchell, as usual I find expresses better how vital it is for a strategic approach to tackling homophobia. JT is right to remind us that Silence Equals Death. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/06/book-that-changed-me-peter-tatchell

Agreed - but Peter Tatchell and Nikolay Alekseev are very different.

... and I have to be honest, I have never heard of Silence Equals Death.

I was doing other things at the time (1987), but looking it up I can't see the connection.

From a very brief scan I think that campaign was planned to focus attention on the situation of those with AIDS (treatment, safe sex education, etc), it had very broad based support and, above all, their campaign was an "unusual experiment in the politics of participation - a mixture of the shrill and the shrewd" and they "held several soul-searching sessions to discuss its past and plot its future ... Act-Up's weekly meetings are an exercise in creative anarchy. There is no board and no paid staff. Anyone who shows up can vote. ..."

Essentially Act Up seems to be the absolute antithesis of the way Nikolay Alekseyev ran and saw things - there was no "shrewd", just "shrill"; there was no "participation"; and nobody got a "vote".

The entire campaign in Russia is an abject lesson in how NOT to go about change and how much harm the wrong sort of activism can do to the people it purports to support.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/03/nyregion/rude-rash-effective-act-up-shifts-aids-policy.html?pagewanted=4&src=pm

You're right the term was primarily used in aids activism but my recollection is that the general tenet was used in queer activist groups like OutRage in relation to campaigning for equality. Its interesting to see the fault lines around boycott or not the Olympics and I have to admit I'm not sure. Do you remember "the kiss" at eurovision and how the Russians threatened to boycott? (I imagine I'm pretty safe in assuming people on this thread were watching, I know JT was). That was so powerful, what if something similar was planned for the Olympics? I'm thinking of the "Kiss In" in Picadilly in the days when I dressed like Jimmy Somerville rather than Jimmy Hill, that was brilliant activism and produced some enduring images.

Either way the debate within and without Russia is how best to focus attention and bring about change, hopefully we all agree on that. There seems to be a lack of coherent, unified response from within Russia but I note that Greg Louganis is opposed to a boycott.

Honesty time again - no idea what "the kiss" at Eurovision was until I looked it up. Never heard of the "Kiss In" in Piccadilly in 1990 either (again, I was elsewhere at the time), but somehow I can't see it happening at the Games - the chances of two gays or two lesbians who would be up for it being on any podium together is pretty remote, and at the same time it could well generate the same sort of story that I note ran in the Independent after the "Kiss In": "unless homosexuals wish to alienate the public they should conduct themselves with restraint".

Its quite possible that a mass Piccadilly-style "Kiss In" could happen in Sochi, but whether it would actually improve things for Russian gays rather than just publicise their problems overseas while actually making things worse for them at home is debatable. In my view that's not a decision that any "gay activists" in the West should take, but one which would need widespread support from Russian gays due to the risk and one which they should take.

I think that Russia and Nikolay Alekseev have actually been one of Peter Tatchell's worst misreadings of a political/ cultural situation. In their conversation with Andy Thayer (GLN) they made some very "broad brush" assumptions about Russia which have since proved to be very bad misreadings of the situation there - whether they influenced Nikolay or he influenced them I don't know, and I wouldn't even guess:

Peter T: This is against the Russian constitution and law, which guarantee the right to protest.

Andy T: The efforts of Eastern European LGBT's to win the right to assemble in Moscow are useful reminders to sometimes self-satisfied Westerns, whether gay or non-gay, that organizing with others to personally assert your rights is the best way to make rapid social advance.

.....I think that every nation thinks that it is "special" - it's a conceit. To our Russian friends I would say that Chicago in the early 1960s in many respects resembled what I hear of Moscow today, and in some ways arguably was worse.....That is why this Saturday's action is so important, and not just for LGBT's, but for anyone who wants to win democratic freedoms.

Peter T: Russia today is a bit like Britain in the 1970s. It has repealed the criminalisation of same-sex relations, but the society is still deeply homophobic.

.... In my experience direct action works. It gets results, when lobbying often fails. Protest is the lifeblood of democracy. If you don't ask (or demand), you don't get.

The above is very edited, but the full interview is widely available on You Tube, etc.

http://www.gayliberation.net/gaypride/2009/0516interview.html

[Jingthing]

It's comforting to know such a strong voice for running back into the closet the moment the going gets rough is so well represented here.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I'm not sure what I feel more, anger or desperate sadness after reading this article. http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/08/the-20-most-shocking-anti-gay-news-stories-from-russia-so-far/

What's going on is truly horrible.

Stephen Fry -- another gay (Jewish) hero!

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/07/stephen-fry-compares-russian-winter-olympics-to-nazi-hosted-1936-olympics-in-letter-to-david-cameron/

The idea that sport and politics don’t connect is worse than disingenuous, worse than stupid. It is wickedly, wilfully wrong. Everyone knows politics interconnects with everything for “politics” is simply the Greek for “to do with the people”.

OK, Fry is calling for a boycott. Personally I think it might be better to make Sochi a showcase of PROTEST against the persecutors.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

Sorry if this link overlaps what has already been said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/10/gay-russian-teens-avoid-propaganda-law

Boycotts have got to be massive to be effective. A boycott by a few people wouldn't even be noticed. But I'm afraid the same thing applies over a protest.

Possibly a boycott by some of the main winter sports countries, as opposed to individuals, might have some effect. It might, however.cause the Russian state to crank up pressure against gays.

[Credo]

It's comforting to know such a strong voice for running back into the closet the moment the going gets rough is so well represented here.

Yes, it's a good idea to keep those closet door hinges well oiled. You never know when you might have to sneak back in and we wouldn't want the door to squeak as it slams shut.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Credo

[Jingthing]

It is clear there will no boycott.

There will be no moving to another host nation.

Just talking about boycotts and moving is part of the earlier stage PROCESS of determination what IS best to ACTUALLY do, and what IS practical to do.

There MUST be pressure.

There MUST be protests.

Above all, there MUST NOT be international SILENCE.

I thinks it clear NOW there SHOULD have been a total boycott of the Nazi Olympics.

History MAY show Sochi should be boycotted as well, but we can't know the future, and it won't be.

No, of course Berlin and Sochi are not exactly alike, but there are parallels and that's why people are talking about Berlin in the debate about whether to boycott Sochi or not. The parallels are the early signs of national persecution laws passed, before in Germany against Jews, and now in Russia against gays. Remember in 1936 the persecution of Jews was in the earlier stages.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

Easy to say MUST, JT, and basically I agree with you, but I don't think a Winter Olympics is high-enough profile to get people really worked up about it.

[sustento]

It would be nice if it were possible to ask gays in Russia who will be personally affected by whatever protest the west dreams up whether it's what they actually want or not. It's easy to sit in your nice comfy chair encouraging action thousands of miles away when you know you're not going to get your head kicked in.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, easy enough.

She is certain that there will be no boycott of the Winter Olympics. But she does have one plea. "Sportsmen can go to the opening ceremony with a rainbow flag in support of Russian LGBT. It would be very valuable," she said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/10/gay-russian-teens-avoid-propaganda-law

I think this kind of thing, really organized, is something worth exploring.

Perhaps pressure SPECIFICALLY on the USA team (and other countries that might be open to this) to get the team to display "gay propaganda" at least at the opening ceremonies.

In the case of the USA Olympics history, this might be a small step to atone for the shameful treatment of the American Jewish athletes at the Nazi games. Not only was there no protest of the anti-Jewish Nazi policies at the games in general, the U.S. team's leadership was ALSO anti-semitic and voluntarily pulled out two Jewish athletes ONLY for reasons of being ... Jews. But this was also done and excused at the time as respecting the sensitivities of anti-semitic Germany. Such laws deserve no respect and no compliance. Of course, decisions made based on sports tactics and athletic ability are a totally different thing. That wasn't the case.

This isn't a trivial point really.

The current IOC leadership is suggesting that the teams follow the laws of any host nation.

NORMALLY, that would be reasonable, but in this case that is an OUTRAGEOUS demand.

Yes, there should be massive law breaking and it should be strongly ORGANIZED.

DARE THEM to make mass arrests of international athletes at their anti-gay propaganda games. The lesson of Berlin says this MUST be done.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[sustento]

Yeah, easy enough.

She is certain that there will be no boycott of the Winter Olympics. But she does have one plea. "Sportsmen can go to the opening ceremony with a rainbow flag in support of Russian LGBT. It would be very valuable," she said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/10/gay-russian-teens-avoid-propaganda-law

That's the opinion of one person. I was hoping for something a little more wide ranging. I know it won't be possible but it would be nice if they were allowed to decide for themselves rather than having it decided for them from the safety of Norfolk.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, easy enough.

She is certain that there will be no boycott of the Winter Olympics. But she does have one plea. "Sportsmen can go to the opening ceremony with a rainbow flag in support of Russian LGBT. It would be very valuable," she said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/10/gay-russian-teens-avoid-propaganda-law

That's the opinion of one person. I was hoping for something a little more wide ranging. I know it won't be possible but it would be nice if they were allowed to decide for themselves rather than having it decided for them from the safety of Norfolk.

Oh please. Such opinions have ALREADY been posted. The Russian gay activist leadership clearly wants and expects visible protest at Sochi.

[Scott]

Would an active movement to boycott the Olympics likely have a backlash on gays? If so, in what countries would a backlash be most likely?

I note that there are protests at Russian Embassies in a number of countries.

[sustento]

Would an active movement to boycott the Olympics likely have a backlash on gays? If so, in what countries would a backlash be most likely?

I note that there are protests at Russian Embassies in a number of countries.

You said yourself a while back that acceptance usually comes from indifference. I don't think that the tweets of Stephen Fry or pictures of two camp men wrapped in a pink Union Flag will go down very well in Russia. Those in the west who are encouraging activism in Russia will never have to face the prospect of a few years in a Russian prison. I'd be enormously impressed if they actually went and protested in person and risked their own safety along with the Russian gays they're encouraging to risk theirs but I suspect that will never happen. They'll just find something new to be outraged about and start tweeting about that.

For the record - I would dearly love for the Russians (and all gays worldwide) to have the same rights as I have in the UK. I'd just like for as few as possible of them to be hurt or killed in the process

[ToddWeston]

If ever, I believe Keep Calm and Carry On applies, we have no idea what backlash could be applied against gays in Russia when the games are over, the idea of athletes promoting such extremes goes against the IOC and sportsmanship. It's not a political rally and I would be ashamed if athletes straight or gay took it upon themselves to make specticals of themselves knowing full well it will never be aired in Russia.

If you want the honey, don't kick the hive, we simply don't know enough. the reference to Berlin may be valid but again we don't know what would have happened in those days if the maniac had lost the games.

And for the record I will be watching and I may also attend - that's me I love sport and have attended 3 winter games I won't let my personal opinion cloud such an event.

[Jingthing]

The logic here of the Milquetoast Brigade defies all logic.

So the Russian gay activists do nothing and the international people, teams and tourists do nothing.

Then what?

You think ... HONEY?

Are you actually serious?

If there is no STRONG international protest movement Putin will know he can get away with ANYTHING, even much worse, and the world will do NOTHING.

Even worse the IOC defending these laws as local custom.

That will not stand. Mark my words. The IOC will be forced to cave on that as well they should.

The lesson of Berlin.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Welcome to Russia.

Now drink some urine.

This isn't going away folks all by itself.

There is no honey coming to the gays of Russia as a reward for keeping quiet.

Doing nothing in response to brutality invites more brutality.

"They have been given carte blanche for all their actions by these laws," he says. "They have received signals from the highest officials in the state -- the Duma, the president -- that basically you can do whatever you want if it concerns gay people because they are not first-class citizens; they are second-class or even third-class."

Indeed, groups like the one in Kamensk-Uralsky -- which belongs to a Russia-wide network operating under the banner "Occupy Pedophilia" -- have so far enjoyed almost total impunity for their treatment of homosexuals. None has been prosecuted and the group even appears to have tacit official support. Edited versions of the gang's videos have even been broadcast on a local television station.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/in-russia-violent-videos-show-a-startling-new-form-of-gay-bullying/278294/

I don't really have the funds to travel to Sochi for pleasure and frankly Winter Olympics are meh to me. But frankly if I was a gay man going to Sochi I would be ASHAMED to broadcast that not only am I going, I will not participate in any kind of protest, and I oppose all such protests. I could understand being afraid to protest because yes you could be arrested but that's different than OPPOSING all protest.

BTW, Silence Equals Death is not only relevant about Aids.

It applies to this Russian situation (and others) as well:

Russian-American Larry Poltavtsev, the president of the Spectrum Human Rights, said he was protesting not only against abuses in Russia, but what he described as a weak response from the West.

"Why are we, as Americans, and Europeans as well, sort of providing white-glove treatment to Mr. Putin [while] he successfully humiliates and oppresses his own population? Maybe there are some underlying political reasons and global interests -- I don't know. But that sounds wrong," he said. "Silence is indeed death right now."

http://www.rferl.org/content/protests-russia-gay-rights-washington-new-york-vodka-putin/25062837.html

Edited August 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[sustento]

Welcome to Russia.

Now drink some urine.

This isn't going away folks all by itself.

There is no honey coming to the gays of Russia as a reward for keeping quiet.

Doing nothing in response to brutality invites more brutality.

"They have been given carte blanche for all their actions by these laws," he says. "They have received signals from the highest officials in the state -- the Duma, the president -- that basically you can do whatever you want if it concerns gay people because they are not first-class citizens; they are second-class or even third-class."

Indeed, groups like the one in Kamensk-Uralsky -- which belongs to a Russia-wide network operating under the banner "Occupy Pedophilia" -- have so far enjoyed almost total impunity for their treatment of homosexuals. None has been prosecuted and the group even appears to have tacit official support. Edited versions of the gang's videos have even been broadcast on a local television station.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/in-russia-violent-videos-show-a-startling-new-form-of-gay-bullying/278294/

I don't really have the funds to travel to Sochi for pleasure and frankly Winter Olympics are meh to me. But frankly if I was a gay man going to Sochi I would be ASHAMED to broadcast that not only am I going, I will not participate in any kind of protest, and I oppose all such protests. I could understand being afraid to protest because yes you could be arrested but that's different than OPPOSING all protest.

BTW, Silence Equals Death is not only relevant about Aids.

It applies to this Russian situation (and others) as well:

Russian-American Larry Poltavtsev, the president of the Spectrum Human Rights, said he was protesting not only against abuses in Russia, but what he described as a weak response from the West.

"Why are we, as Americans, and Europeans as well, sort of providing white-glove treatment to Mr. Putin [while] he successfully humiliates and oppresses his own population? Maybe there are some underlying political reasons and global interests -- I don't know. But that sounds wrong," he said. "Silence is indeed death right now."

http://www.rferl.org/content/protests-russia-gay-rights-washington-new-york-vodka-putin/25062837.html

But you aren't a gay man going to Sochi. You're a gay man living in Pattaya just like Larry Poltavtsev is a gay man living in the USA. Neither of you are willing to tolerate the suffering you are asking others to. If you believe in your cause that much then you really ought to put your money where your mouth is. If you aren't then you could always join Stephen and tweet from a safe distance...

[Scott]

Let's keep the discussion civil.

Whether people would protest or not would probably depend on why they went to the Winter games. I would protest, but that's because I am not much of a sport's fan and other than a couple of events, I would have no interest in the games.

[sustento]

I hope you're not suggesting that I'm not being civil? If so I'd appreciate you pointing out where you believe I'm not so that I can avoid it in future.

[Jingthing]

That is correct. I am not going to Sochi and like I said, IF I was going I would be ashamed to admit that I am against any protests there and that it should only be about sport when the host country is acting to gays like Hitler was acting to Jews. Whether I was going or not doesn't change the validity of the OPINION expressed in that assertion.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

This repeated comparison with the Berlin Olympics is misleading. The whole world does follow the summer Olympics.... but how many people follow the Winter Olympics?

Putin will think he can do anything? Putin CAN do anything, and there is nothing the West can do to stop him.

[Jingthing]

This repeated comparison with the Berlin Olympics is misleading. The whole world does follow the summer Olympics.... but how many people follow the Winter Olympics?

Putin will think he can do anything? Putin CAN do anything, and there is nothing the West can do to stop him.

NOBODY ... anywhere .. is suggesting Berlin 1936 and Sochi are exactly alike. So by pointing out differences, you're focusing on an irrelevancy. Of course, many people watch the winter Olympics, I'd say quite a few more than watched Berlin 1936 summer Olympics on television ... and the INTERNET ...

The relevant part of looking about the comparison between Berlin and Sochi is the morality aspect (Jews then, gays now) which includes a POLITICAL aspect which I realize some of you think politics is a dirty word but to that I would say GROW UP. Berlin, no boycotts, no visible protests, and Jewish athletes were treated badly. Now at Sochi, for all those same things to happen I don't think is morally DEFENSIBLE and neither do many important voices in the world today. I already hear you saying, oh the gay athletes will be able to compete at Sochi ... OK ... VISIBLY as gay people in the same way a Jew in Berlin would have been visible without breaking Russian law? And the PRIDE SPACE for athletes, this time ... not allowed because of anti-gay laws. So already the deal involves some crappy treatment of gay athletes and the games haven't even STARTED.

As far as Russians not seeing any visible protest at Sochi, which I predict there will be whether the Milquetoast Brigades of the world approve or not, OF COURSE they will see them. They've got the internet.

The west can't influence Putin AT ALL?

Maybe. Maybe not. Russia is not an island. They've got the internet. Doing NOTHING will definitely do NOTHING.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Jingthing

[ToddWeston]

This repeated comparison with the Berlin Olympics is misleading. The whole world does follow the summer Olympics.... but how many people follow the Winter Olympics?

Putin will think he can do anything? Putin CAN do anything, and there is nothing the West can do to stop him.

I tend to agree with you, a few PM's and Obama gave the topic its 30 second sound bite to reinforce the IOC and for political speak. A few more actors and journalists jumped on the wagon but Putin won't give a toss. I believe focusing the spotlight on protests will not change one thing pre or post the Olympics, oh sure the IOC will get some sort of assurance during the games but it's after that has been my concern from the get go.

[Jingthing]

It's still early. Sochi is happening. I think any serious boycott of nations other than consumers needed Obama's leadership and he's not on board. The same with a host nation change. At this point there is a lot of talk and some trial balloons. There is no need at this point, especially as its clear Sochi is on to have all the specific plans in place. OF COURSE, this isn't only about what happens at Sochi. The much bigger issue is Russian policy in general but Sochi remains the best opportunity available right now for some kind of globalization of this issue, and mark my words, it won't be an opportunity that will be wasted, noises from the Milquetoast Brigades notwithstanding. Rest assured there are factions in Russia wanting protests of some kind at Sochi and there are also such international factions. It will be interesting to see how this all comes out in the wash, as by necessity this kind of thing is going to be rather messy without one clear authoritative leader. That's rough, considering Russia sure has that, in Putin. Realistically Putin is not going to push repeal of the anti-gay laws any time soon, they are indeed popular which is a sad commentary about homophobia in Russia, but that's the situation. So the way forward for gay Russians is going to be a long and hard one indeed.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

My impressions about why Russia is going to be a tough nut to crack for advocates of gay civil rights in that country.

Their CULTURE around homosexuality is very, very different than the west.

Here are the differences according to my impressions:

1. The idea of gay as an IDENTITY group is a RELATIVELY modern western concept but has a decently long history now in western culture.

2. The idea of gay sexuality and identity being a mostly PERMANENT for life state of being is a western concept but has a decently long history now in western culture.

3. In Russian culture, gay is not seen as an identity group, like Jews. They are well BEHIND the west in this regard. The adoption and acceptance of this modern concept, gay as an IDENTITY GROUP, and yes this has big POLITICAL implications, has been VITAL in the progress forward of gay civil rights in many countries.

4. In Russian culture, there is a widespread belief a temporary gay sexuality phase both can and SHOULD be cured. Apparently, violence is seen as one of the cure methods. They are well BEHIND the west in this regard.

5. In Russian culture, the connection in the public's mind between homosexuality and pederasty is much stronger in the public mind than in the west. A common Russian term for gay people in GENERAL, not only actual pedos is ... PEDO. So the obsession of the current anti-gay laws and violence against gays on the Russian connection to pederasty, protecting the children etc. can be seen in the roots of Russian culture. It is obviously a rich vein of hate waiting to be exploited by a dictator like Putin and that's what he has done. Dictators who see their power threatened have ALWAYS loved a SCAPEGOAT.

6. The west has now and has had many of the same issues mentioned here as in Russia. But in Russia the root problem is much more severe.

These troubling and BACKWARDS Russian cultural views on homosexuality were deeply rooted in Russian culture well before Moscow Gay Pride events, and well before Putin's anti-gay scapegoating

The way forward is going to be long and hard but in my opinion, one of the best hopes for change is to fight the isolation of Russia and indeed to try to influence the western ideas of more tolerance, namely

-- gay is an identity group and yes you need gay activists to help promote this modern idea

-- gay sexual identity is often for life, especially with males, not something that can or should be CURED especially with violent methods

-- gay sexuality and identity and separate things than pederasty

These cultural concepts which are INDEED foreign to Russian culture won't magically grow in Russia. Foreign influence is needed and the best hope to speed this up as quickly as possible is the INTERNET.

As I've mentioned before, the fight for gay civil rights is a different thing in different countries. There is no level playing field.

The connection to Sochi?

I think a strong message needs to be made that gets to the Russian people, who are indeed overwhelmingly homophobic and overwhelmingly harbor these backwards concepts about gay people.

There is a bigger world out there, and the majority of the civilized world DOES see gay people as an identity group deserving dignity, civil rights, and freedom from violent attacks.

This world will be at the very least watching and caring about what happens to this persecuted minority in Russia -- gay people. Russia can continue down this path but whatever horrors they do now and in the future will be seen by the entire world.

Maybe that's not much, maybe that's not ENOUGH, but that's MUCH MORE than was conveyed to Germans and Jews in Germany in 1936. If you think that's nothing, so be it. I don't and I sincerely think the majority of gay people in the world don't either, regardless of the odd anti-activist biases of the majority on this SMALL forum.

If something MORE than this can be done, great, I don't see how or what at this point. It is THEIR country.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Jingthing