Masanobu Fukuoka's natural rice farming

[thailandcalling]

Has anyone tried this method of rice farming in Thailand ? if so I would be very interested in hearing your experience and views. I'm really trying to get our land back into a natural state.

For those of you who don't know how it's done here's a video from India.

Thanks

[cooked]

What's black velvet bean? Looks like a good idea that has to be adapted to and for, I can't see my family going for it.

[teletiger]

If the cut mat suppresses the weeds why doesn't it suppress the rice?
Regards.

[IsaanAussie]

It is a great idea BUT... Firstly water availability, in non-irrigated areas that is difficult without a pond dyke setup. The channels shown under the beans were for irrigation of the field. His rice is probably grown on land that can be flooded and drained at will. The green manure crop used to fix nitrogen more often here is sunhemp and it is incorporated into the ground before or as the land is prepared.

I agree with teletiger that the mat will inhibit the rice. The bean used has been cropped therefore despite the nitrogen fixing during growth it will draw back most to flower and fruit. Without any doubt the labour required to cut that mass, rollup and out again would be an issue. And I would be interested to compare the yield gained.

Finally the soil as is now. Most forms hard pan near me and eventually that means no water or root penetration when the rice is flooded deeply for months at a time. Much of the biology simply does not survive. I would argue that tilling the soil properly does little real damage to the biology and improves the aeration.

[mo99]

Fukuoka used clover for nitrogen fixation, but it is probably less practical for a hotter climates like Thailand.

[rice555]

Hello All, TT, if you watched the video you would have seen

your answer.

The second video you could of see a young Molsen.(Permaculture)

There's a lot of differences in his first(Masanobu) teachings from

Japan than later models in other countries. Japan was not grown

in flooded patties.

rice555

[thailandcalling]

Thanks for the posts

The reason I like this method is one to try and get away from using chemical fertilizers, that over time will damage your soil. Second to be less dependent on fuel.

I understand this process is far more labour intensive but for the smaller farm it could be worth trying. I have a large lake next to my paddies which is full all year round, so water is not an issue. In the first video they used black velvet beans, just wondering if they are (towa dam) any ideas.

Regards

[mo99]

Thanks for the posts

The reason I like this method is one to try and get away from using chemical fertilizers, that over time will damage your soil. Second to be less dependent on fuel.

I understand this process is far more labour intensive but for the smaller farm it could be worth trying. I have a large lake next to my paddies which is full all year round, so water is not an issue. In the first video they used black velvet beans, just wondering if they are (towa dam) any ideas.

Regards

It looks to me like the one in the first video was cow pea. Tua dum (black bean), most commonly the one they use in the thai deserts.

[mo99]

It is a great idea BUT... Firstly water availability, in non-irrigated areas that is difficult without a pond dyke setup. The channels shown under the beans were for irrigation of the field. His rice is probably grown on land that can be flooded and drained at will. The green manure crop used to fix nitrogen more often here is sunhemp and it is incorporated into the ground before or as the land is prepared.

I agree with teletiger that the mat will inhibit the rice. The bean used has been cropped therefore despite the nitrogen fixing during growth it will draw back most to flower and fruit. Without any doubt the labour required to cut that mass, rollup and out again would be an issue. And I would be interested to compare the yield gained.

Finally the soil as is now. Most forms hard pan near me and eventually that means no water or root penetration when the rice is flooded deeply for months at a time. Much of the biology simply does not survive. I would argue that tilling the soil properly does little real damage to the biology and improves the aeration.

IA,

There is a load of research that proves no-till to be superior for soil structure and water retention in the long run (3 years +). Also the Fukuoka technique does not use flooding. Lastly the technique shown of sowing the seed prior to cutting the green manure ensures that the seed germinates just before the green manure starts to rot, thus not causing the seed to rot (and eliminating weeds).

Problems with tilling: kills beneficial animals such as worms, frogs/toads, etc. Damages beneficial fungal mycelium networks by exposing the mycelium to the air. Destroys soil structure by cutting up root mass. Root mass creates channels for water to drain and gives food to mycelium.

No-till allows for a more natural soil building process where crop residue sits on top for earth worms to incorporate it into the soil, thus worms are your plough (and you have more of them with this technique). This is proven to break up clay soils better than ploughing, since the soil improves each season. Where as using tillage, you have to till again the next season (thereby becoming a till addict).

Mycelium works for you by improving water retention, mining minerals (making them bio-available to plants), and improving soil structure. Worms help improve the soil structure, drainage, and nutrient distribution (bringing phosphate and potassium up to the top soil), thus reducing your need for fertilizers in the long run.

There is a lot of research in no-till farming, it has been proven many times, even conventional farmers are seeing the benefits, but it is not an instant result situation.

[MrOdyssey]

Hello Thailandcalling,

I've read some of Fukuoka's work. Later in his life he was shocked to find out about the permaculture movement which had developed independently. I didn't see the video because I've got a crappy connection at the moment, but I suggest you look into the "System of Rice Intensification" aka "SRI." Here is a good place to start.

http://sri.ciifad.cornell.edu/

With this system everything you thought you knew and have seen about rice cultivation goes out the window. An advantage is that the fields are not flooded, just intermittantly irrigated. As a green mulch, a good candidate would be the perennial peanut (Arachis pintoi). This is where I started:

http://www.agrowingculture.org/2012/03/breaking-vietnam%E2%80%99s-coffee-monoculture-with-perennial-peanut-arachis-pintoi/

[IsaanAussie]

It is a great idea BUT... Firstly water availability, in non-irrigated areas that is difficult without a pond dyke setup. The channels shown under the beans were for irrigation of the field. His rice is probably grown on land that can be flooded and drained at will. The green manure crop used to fix nitrogen more often here is sunhemp and it is incorporated into the ground before or as the land is prepared.

I agree with teletiger that the mat will inhibit the rice. The bean used has been cropped therefore despite the nitrogen fixing during growth it will draw back most to flower and fruit. Without any doubt the labour required to cut that mass, rollup and out again would be an issue. And I would be interested to compare the yield gained.

Finally the soil as is now. Most forms hard pan near me and eventually that means no water or root penetration when the rice is flooded deeply for months at a time. Much of the biology simply does not survive. I would argue that tilling the soil properly does little real damage to the biology and improves the aeration.

IA,

There is a load of research that proves no-till to be superior for soil structure and water retention in the long run (3 years +). Also the Fukuoka technique does not use flooding. Lastly the technique shown of sowing the seed prior to cutting the green manure ensures that the seed germinates just before the green manure starts to rot, thus not causing the seed to rot (and eliminating weeds).

Problems with tilling: kills beneficial animals such as worms, frogs/toads, etc. Damages beneficial fungal mycelium networks by exposing the mycelium to the air. Destroys soil structure by cutting up root mass. Root mass creates channels for water to drain and gives food to mycelium.

No-till allows for a more natural soil building process where crop residue sits on top for earth worms to incorporate it into the soil, thus worms are your plough (and you have more of them with this technique). This is proven to break up clay soils better than ploughing, since the soil improves each season. Where as using tillage, you have to till again the next season (thereby becoming a till addict).

Mycelium works for you by improving water retention, mining minerals (making them bio-available to plants), and improving soil structure. Worms help improve the soil structure, drainage, and nutrient distribution (bringing phosphate and potassium up to the top soil), thus reducing your need for fertilizers in the long run.

There is a lot of research in no-till farming, it has been proven many times, even conventional farmers are seeing the benefits, but it is not an instant result situation.

Horses for courses. I don't disagree with you but my own experience with the paddy fields we have points the other way. In my case the ground needs OM "under the surface" that means digging it in. The choice of implements makes a difference but you wont kill what isn't there.

Please tell me more about what results you have had.

[IsaanAussie]

Yesterday I dug over a vegetable bed I made up a few years ago by incorporating compost and biochar with the natural dirt and forming a raised bed. It has had sweet potatoes growing in it for ages. They were being grown purely for the foliage which the pigs love. Now I want to use it for other things. The point is that soil was covered with vines as in the OP's film and had developed a much better ecosystem than just the normal dirt, but, under that blended earth the hard clay base is still as it was. No worms, roots or even potatoes have made the slightest difference to it. To open it up, I will have to dig it over and get organics into it.

[mo99]

IA, check out this video on Youtube:

He mentions a few good reasons Not to till, everytime you till it destroyes the soil (even if it may take a few years to notice).

[IsaanAussie]

Much as I would like the clod in his left hand, I haven't, I got the lifeless hunk. Further I have dirt, not soil. High percentage of fine particle clay which is porridge in the wet and concrete in the dry. It has been tilled and chemically fertilised for years which has effectively removed the carbon from the soil.

If you can tell me how to reverse that and get organic matter back into the ground without tillage, then I am all ears.

[mo99]

Much as I would like the clod in his left hand, I haven't, I got the lifeless hunk. Further I have dirt, not soil. High percentage of fine particle clay which is porridge in the wet and concrete in the dry. It has been tilled and chemically fertilised for years which has effectively removed the carbon from the soil.

If you can tell me how to reverse that and get organic matter back into the ground without tillage, then I am all ears.

IA,

Plant roots are the primary way of getting OM back into the soil. Also as I mentioned earthworms move OM into the lower layers of the soil as they come to the surface to feed on decaying plant matter. Fungi help bind the low OM dirt together making it more sponge like. Even in my little garden where I have mostly sand, the fungi have begun doing this. I have no real soil under the top soil, and yet the fungi have attached themselves to the sand particles. I am not arguing about initial tilling to get OM into the soil, but susequent tilling should be avoided since it destroys the very organisms which build soil.

[IsaanAussie]

Much as I would like the clod in his left hand, I haven't, I got the lifeless hunk. Further I have dirt, not soil. High percentage of fine particle clay which is porridge in the wet and concrete in the dry. It has been tilled and chemically fertilised for years which has effectively removed the carbon from the soil.

If you can tell me how to reverse that and get organic matter back into the ground without tillage, then I am all ears.

IA,

Plant roots are the primary way of getting OM back into the soil. Also as I mentioned earthworms move OM into the lower layers of the soil as they come to the surface to feed on decaying plant matter. Fungi help bind the low OM dirt together making it more sponge like. Even in my little garden where I have mostly sand, the fungi have begun doing this. I have no real soil under the top soil, and yet the fungi have attached themselves to the sand particles. I am not arguing about initial tilling to get OM into the soil, but susequent tilling should be avoided since it destroys the very organisms which build soil.

There is a difference of scope. For my small veggie patch it took a couple of days to mix up a heavy load of organic materials and a year of fallow before it was useable. But I have 16 rai of paddies and gardens to do and at 10 ton of compost etc per hectare (about 400 bags of my compost/ hectare, or about 1,000 in total) that is a major undertaking approaching my yearly production. Doing it once is not the answer as initially the ground is hungry and much of the OM just disappears. Good example, take a bale of rice and leave out on grass during the wet season. There will be a tiny amount of rotted straw left and a full handfuls of humus. About enough to bring an inch of soil back to life under where the bale was.

For the average gardener here is a recipe to revive your garden. 2 bags of CRH, 2 bags of coco peat, 1 bag of manure based compost to a similar amount of soil. Then drench the mix with EMA at about 1 in 200 to 500 water. This will get the basic biology into the mixture and start the soil making process. You can add some fungal brews if you know how. Forrest and bamboo cultures are great and easy to make. Growth hormones can be made if you have the right sort of weeds near by. I ferment all this stuff and at under 100baht a litre not expensive if you want to PM me.

[thailandcalling]

IA, check out this video on Youtube:

He mentions a few good reasons Not to till, everytime you till it destroyes the soil (even if it may take a few years to notice).

Thanks great clip, that's exactly why I'm interested in going down this path.

[IsaanAussie]

Guys my current internet connection is crap. But since this video got featured again I decided to watch it through. About 3 hours later, I have managed to watch all 8 minutes of tape. Now a little Leo affected during that period of boredom, freely admit to that. But this is the biggest lot of b'sh1t I have ever seen. You really should rethink your plans if a piece of waterproof near-rock that filters water but does bugger all else is the basis of your investment plan. Both samples are clearly dry, perhaps less than 5% moisture. Biology dies at 30% guys.

[mo99]

That's topsoil IA, it does tend to dry up during the dry season. That is the point! If you are lacking Organic Matter in the upper layer then you will have run-off. Of course mulching helps.

[IsaanAussie]

That's topsoil IA, it does tend to dry up during the dry season. That is the point! If you are lacking Organic Matter in the upper layer then you will have run-off. Of course mulching helps.

Absolutely correct mo99! And there is the challenge in places like Isaan. How do you keep that topsoil alive during periods of flood and drought, or, wet and dry season? The current solution is chemical during the wet to grow rice and let the cows eat what they can in the dry. Millions of hectares being wasted for the lack of water management and biological awareness.

As I have said before, the scale difference between garden and farm, does make an enormous difference. Easy to mulch a few garden beds, composting acreage is a different game. And this is after all, a farming forum.