Is it possible to lose permanent residency for any reason?

[andrewfenn]

Hello all,

As usual i've come back to ask more complicated questions.

This time it's about permanent residency. Let's pretend that I have it already via the condition that I am married to a thai ( the 95,700 option), if I get divorced afterwards would I then lose the permanent residency? Is it possible to lose it for any other reason?

I'm asking because I don't want to go through the hassle of doing it all and paying all that money just to lose it because of something unfortunate that pops up later in my life.

Thanks in advance,

Andrew

[samran]

Your change in marriage status or becoming unemployed won't affect things. The main way or losing it is staying outside of Thailand for more than 364 days in a row, or departing Thailand without a valid re-entry permit.

[KamnanT]

Far and away the most common reason for losing PR is leaving the country without getting your Certificate of Residence endorsed or not returning before the endorsement expires.

[lemonjelly]

What about drug offences etc……?

[p_brownstone]

You don't get "Permanent Residence" simply by being married to a Thai woman.

However you can get Thai Citizenship by being married to a Thai woman, subject to various conditions of course.

You will lose "Permanent Resident" status if you leave Thailand without a Re-entry Permit, or do not re enter Thailand within the validity of that Permit - that limit is 1 Year.

If you attain Thai Citizenship it would be very difficult for any authority to revoke it except under extreme circumstances.

Patrick

[Mario2008]

The immigration act:

Section 48 : A residence Certificate is of permanent validity, but it expires when the holder leaves the

Kingdom , unless prior to departing , the holder has his departure for return document endorsed by a

competent official in accordance with Section 50. In such a case , if the certificate holder returns to the

Kingdom within one year from the date of endorsement and he is not excluded from entry according to

Section 12 or 44 , a Residence Certificate shall be considered still valid.

The provisions of Section 12 (1) concerning visa , and (2) and (3) and (4) shall not apply to the

first paragraph of this Section.

Section 53 : If it is learned at a late date that aliens who came to stay in the Kingdom are among the

persons excluded from entry because of any circumstance as prescribed in Section 12 (7) or (8)or (10) or

Section 43 Para.2 or Section 44 or persons convicted under Section 63 or 64 , the Director General will

submit the matter to the Immigration Commission. If the Immigration Commission decides that the alien's

permission to stay in the Kingdom should be revoked, the Immigration Commission will submit their

opinion to the Minister for further consideration in revoking the Permission.

Section 12 : Aliens which fall into any of the following categories are excluded from entering into the

Kingdom :

1. Having no genuine and valid passport or document used in lieu of passport ; or having a

genuine and valid passport or document used in lieu of a passport without Visaing by the Royal Thai

Embassies or Consulates in Foreign countries ; or from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs , excepting if a visa

is not required for certain types of aliens in special instances.

Visaing and visa exemption will be under the learn and conditions as provided in the Ministerial

Regulations.

2. Having no appropriate means of living following entrance into the Kingdom.

3. Having entered into the Kingdom to take occupation as a laborer or to take employment by

using physical without skills training or to work in violation of the Ministerial Regulations.

4. Being mentally unstable or having any of the disease as prescribed in the Ministerial

Regulations.

5. Having not yet been vaccinated against smalllpox or inoculated or undergone any other

medical treatment for protection against disease and having refused to have such vaccinations

administered by the Immigration Doctor.

6. Having been imprisoned by the judgement of the Thai Court ; or by a lawful injunction ; or by

the judgement of the Court of foreign country , except when the penalty is foe petty offense or negligence

or is provided for as an exception in the Ministerial Regulations.

7. Having behavior which would indicated possible danger to the public or likelihood of being a

nuisance or constituting any violence to the peace or safety of the public or to the security of the public or

to the security of the nation , or being under warrant of arrest by competent officials of foreign

governments.

8. Reason to believe that entrance into the Kingdom was for the purpose of being involved in

prostitution , the trading of woman of children , drug smuggling , or other types of smuggling which are

contrary to the public morality.

9. Having no money or bond as prescribed by the Minister under him

10. Being a person prohibited by the Minister under Section 16.

11. Being deported by either the Government of Thailand that of or other foreign countries ; or

the right of stay in the Kingdom or in foreign countries having been revoked ; or having been sent out of

the Kingdom by competent officials at the expense of the Government of Thailand unless the Minister

shall consider exemption on an individual special case basis.

The examination and diagnosis of disease of a physical or mental nature , including protective

operations as against disease , shall be conducted by the Immigration Doctor.

Section 44 : No alien is authorized to take up residence in the Kingdom, if it appears that said alien :

1. has been punished with imprisonment by judgement or legal order of a Thai or foreign

country court, except a minor offense committed by negligence , or an offense exempted as prescribed by

the Ministerial Regulations.

2. Is unable to earn his living because of mental defect or physical infirmity or having any

diseases as prescribed by Ministerial Regulations.

The provision of (2) shall not apply to an alien father, mother, husband, wife or child of the one having

domicile within the Kingdom and is able to support each other.

[nosatisfaction]

Your change in marriage status or becoming unemployed won't affect things. The main way or losing it is staying outside of Thailand for more than 364 days in a row, or departing Thailand without a valid re-entry permit.

I think this is correct once the PV is accepted, not under investigation, to verfify

[nosatisfaction]

Your change in marriage status or becoming unemployed won't affect things. The main way or losing it is staying outside of Thailand for more than 364 days in a row, or departing Thailand without a valid re-entry permit.

I think this is correct once the PV is accepted, not under investigation, to verfify

sorry, it should read PR

[falang07]

Section 44 : No alien is authorized to take up residence in the Kingdom, if it appears that said alien

2. Is unable to earn his living because of mental defect or physical infirmity or having any diseases as prescribed by Ministerial Regulations.

Well, this one is a real nice one. So if you get a disease, your permanent residency goes down the drain, too.

[falang07]

Section 12 : Aliens which fall into any of the following categories are excluded from entering into theKingdom :

8. Reason to believe that entrance into the Kingdom was for the purpose of being involved in prostitution

Well, if they start to enforce this one, I am sure Pattaya (and Thailand as well) would surely loose about 90% of the tourists. The dirty sea and beaches will not be enough to drive high quality tourists in here.

[ubonjoe]

It appears to me that only those sections that fall under Chapter 5 of immigration act apply to permanent residents which are sections 40 to 52. See: Immigration Act 2522

Section 44 is only applicable when applying for residence.

Edited July 18, 2013 by ubonjoe

[Mario2008]

A returning PR-holder whoe returns to Thiland within 1 year must still not be a person not allowed to enter under section 12, (1) to (4) are however not applicable to a PR holder. But not being convicted in Thailand or abroad for example still applies to a returning PR-holder.

Next to section 44, but section 44 (2) is also limited as it does not apply to family members of a Thai national.

Section 53 means that persons providing false /incorrect/incomplete information during their PR-application at a later date can have their PR-revoked. But (possibly) also that if a person at a later date (after having received PR) meets the restrictions of section 12 (7) or (8) or (10) or Section 43 Para.2 or Section 44 or persons convicted under Section 63 or 64 the Immigration Commision can decide to revoke PR.

[scorecard]

Your change in marriage status or becoming unemployed won't affect things. The main way or losing it is staying outside of Thailand for more than 364 days in a row, or departing Thailand without a valid re-entry permit.

I have PR (about 18 years). The way I understand it (the way my lawyer puts it):

- You can be out of Thailand a total for 364 days in one block period and it's all OK, but out 365 day or more in one block period and PR is automatically gone and there is no appeal process to try to get it reinstated.

- If you convicted of any criminal offence (inside or outside of Thailand) PR is automatically gone and there is no appeal process to try to get it reinstated.

- Failing to present both your passport and your Certificate of Residency book to the immigration officer (going out or going in) and you could find yourself in hot water. Would PR be cancelled for this? My lawyer says it's doubtful unless there are some other negative circumstances or history involved.

- Turn up at an airport or exit port with Passport and PR book but no exit / re-entry stamp and you create a complex problem. My lawyer says what the Immigration staff will do in this scenario is a bit case by case. One point for sure, they will not be impressed and the mai pben rai will not be evident, because you are expected to know that with PR you must have an exit / re-entry stamp. Whether you can get the exit/re-entry stamp at the airport a bit case by case and if it's a small border crossing point it's probably not possible to get the exit / re-entry stamp at that station.

Bottom line: Exit / re-entry stamps are for one year (365 days), get it renewed every year. You have a choice of a one time only exit / re-entry stamp (still one year only), or multiple exit / re-entry stamp, no maximum number of exits / re-entries for the one year.

By the way, achieving PR is not really based on the fact that you are married to a Thai person. The application and the consideration of the PR application mostly looks at you as an individual. My lawyer says 'married to a Thai' and / or have children born in Thailand is a very minor consideration.

In fact I can recall (18 years ago) at the interview I was not asked anything about my family situation in Thailand. I recall this because the agent who helped me gave me a comprehensive briefing / coaching session in advance of the interview and said they will probably not ask you anything about Thai family because it's not a deciding factor at all on whether to approve your PR application.

But it is true that the ultimate fee (once your are approved for PR) is different (considerably cheaper) if your married compared to being single.

Married when you get PR then divorced later has no bearing whatever on getting or continuing the PR status. There is no requirement whatever to report divorce etc., to the Immigration Police.

Working with Work Permit (WP), but you stop work or your employer chooses to not renew your WP has no bearing on continuance of your PR status. With PR there is no requirement whatever to report non-continuance of WP, or gaining a WP, to the Immigration Police.

Edited July 18, 2013 by scorecard

[belg]

in other words : stick to the 1900 baht per year, except if you think you will live here for another 50 to 100 years

Edited July 18, 2013 by belg

[lopburi3]

False statement post removed.

[andrewfenn]

in other words : stick to the 1900 baht per year, except if you think you will live here for another 50 to 100 years

I understand where you're coming from, but for me, and why I am even considering it is due to the following:

- Forgetting changing of a visa which is considerably more expensive; I typically spend 5000 baht (rounded up) a year doing visa related things such as 90 day reports, visa extensions on Non-O which require back and forth from chang-wattana,etc. Assuming it's always going to be around 5k a year that's only 20 years before a residence permit pays itself back.

- I'm 28 and plan on living here at least another 20 years so it kind of makes sense to me, at least I haven't been talked out of it so far.

- I want to buy a condo but I don't want to do the whole transfer money from overseas thing to do it; and I also want it in my name, not my wife's. It's my understanding that with a residence permit you can purchase a condo without having to transfer money in from overseas.

- I would one day possibly want to become managing director of a business, again I read that it's possible with a residence permit.

If it means I never have to deal with visas ever again then in my opinion to relives a lot of stress upon myself, even if I do have to make notes of getting a reentry permit, etc.

I can understand that others might not be interested in having one due to the price, it is a large commitment to make after all, however for me in particular I think the benefits outweigh the one off cost.

Does one still need to do 90 day reports with a residence permit?

[beano2274]

Andrew you have no stated if you work, one of the requirements is that you must have worked here for 3 consecutive years.

[p_brownstone]

in other words : stick to the 1900 baht per year, except if you think you will live here for another 50 to 100 years

I understand where you're coming from, but for me, and why I am even considering it is due to the following:

- Forgetting changing of a visa which is considerably more expensive; I typically spend 5000 baht (rounded up) a year doing visa related things such as 90 day reports, visa extensions on Non-O which require back and forth from chang-wattana,etc. Assuming it's always going to be around 5k a year that's only 20 years before a residence permit pays itself back.

- I'm 28 and plan on living here at least another 20 years so it kind of makes sense to me, at least I haven't been talked out of it so far.

- I want to buy a condo but I don't want to do the whole transfer money from overseas thing to do it; and I also want it in my name, not my wife's. It's my understanding that with a residence permit you can purchase a condo without having to transfer money in from overseas.

- I would one day possibly want to become managing director of a business, again I read that it's possible with a residence permit.

If it means I never have to deal with visas ever again then in my opinion to relives a lot of stress upon myself, even if I do have to make notes of getting a reentry permit, etc.

I can understand that others might not be interested in having one due to the price, it is a large commitment to make after all, however for me in particular I think the benefits outweigh the one off cost.

Does one still need to do 90 day reports with a residence permit?

1) Yes, if you have PR then you an use money generated in Thailand to purchase a Condo.

2) You can be Managing Director of a Company in Thailand without PR - provided you have the correct Visa and a Work Permit. Even if you attain PR status you still need a Work Permit to hold any job in Thailand.

3) With PR you no longer have to do the 90 Day Police Reports.

Patrick

[scorecard]

Andrew you have no stated if you work, one of the requirements is that you must have worked here for 3 consecutive years.

And you must prove that for the three years of work:

- You had a valid work permit

- Your personal income tax return to the Thai revenue department has been submitted and finalized.

[Time Traveller]

in other words : stick to the 1900 baht per year, except if you think you will live here for another 50 to 100 years

I understand where you're coming from, but for me, and why I am even considering it is due to the following:

- Forgetting changing of a visa which is considerably more expensive; I typically spend 5000 baht (rounded up) a year doing visa related things such as 90 day reports, visa extensions on Non-O which require back and forth from chang-wattana,etc. Assuming it's always going to be around 5k a year that's only 20 years before a residence permit pays itself back.

- I'm 28 and plan on living here at least another 20 years so it kind of makes sense to me, at least I haven't been talked out of it so far.

Actually 90 day reports are free, and yearly extensions is only 1900 baht.

If you actually had the money to apply for PR which is at least 100,000 baht to get (including the 7k Bt application fee) and put that into a fixed deposit account with a bank instead. The interest on your money would pay your annual extension fees indefinitely.

From a financial perspective, the PR route is not the cheaper than year by year extensions even considering CPI comparable increases in the yearly extension fee.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Time Traveller

[Arkady]

The Immigration Act is rather confusing because it can be read as there are many ways to lose PR in Thailand, including becoming mentally unstable and/or losing the ability to earn one's living. Actually those are all reasons to deny PR but not reasons to revoke it. I asked Immigration specifically about those points when I got PR and they said that once you're in, you are free to become unemployed or retire and live the rest of your life in Thailand. You can actually only lose PR by staying out of the country beyond the endorsement date in your residence book, as mentioned by several posters, committing a criminal offence or becoming some kind of threat to national security.

On the other hand, I am not sure about the OP's suggestion that he can obtain PR on the basis of having a Thai wife. As far as I know, a Thai wife gets you a 50% discount on the final fee for PR (a very worthwhile perk) but doesn't otherwise help you obtain PR. You still need to meet all the same requirements as applicants without Thai wives, i.e. you need to have a job in Thailand paying B80k a month plus for three complete calendar years. If you meet these requirements, you also have the option to apply for Thai citizenship with a Thai wife, whereas without a Thai wife, you need PR first.

Obviously getting divorced will not affect your PR status because having a Thai wife doesn't do much to help you attain it and I don't think they would reclaim the discount on the fees. If you obtain Thai citizenship on the basis of having a Thai wife, you would also not lose it in the event of divorce. However, if you are divorced or your wife dies before get to the interview stage, your application will be cancelled because you need to be interviewed together.

[ableguy]

Your change in marriage status or becoming unemployed won't affect things. The main way or losing it is staying outside of Thailand for more than 364 days in a row, or departing Thailand without a valid re-entry permit.

try getting banged up for running dope,

[andrewfenn]

There's a bit of miscommunication going on here. When I mentioned the thai wife, I meant specifically because the application fee is cheaper. I have been working for three years on non imm visas, not the same ones however, non-b one year, non-o two; coming september I will be getting my third non-o extension. I have been working the entire time so I have tax receipts.

My main motivation is for purchasing a condo in thailand with the money i've made here and the fact that changes in my circumstances won't effect my ability to stay here, this is a big plus for me because I can't just take half a week off work to go grab a new visa, etc.

I did consider citizenship however the overall fee is more expensive and the application process looks far more complicated and longer to approve.

I'm still unsure about the 90 day reporting, maybe I missed it somewhere above.. does anyone know if you still need to go even with a residence permit, because I've been reading conflicting reports all over the internet.

Edited July 25, 2013 by andrewfenn

[samran]

There's a bit of miscommunication going on here. When I mentioned the thai wife, I meant specifically because the application fee is cheaper. I have been working for three years on non imm visas, not the same ones however, non-b one year, non-o two; coming september I will be getting my third non-o extension. I have been working the entire time so I have tax receipts.

My main motivation is for purchasing a condo in thailand with the money i've made here and the fact that changes in my circumstances won't effect my ability to stay here, this is a big plus for me because I can't just take half a week off work to go grab a new visa, etc.

I did consider citizenship however the overall fee is more expensive and the application process looks far more complicated and longer to approve.

I'm still unsure about the 90 day reporting, maybe I missed it somewhere above.. does anyone know if you still need to go even with a residence permit, because I've been reading conflicting reports all over the internet.

I'd re-do your research if I was you. Citizenship applications are circa 5000 baht. Requirements are similar. Go to woe is about 3 to 4 years on average. Edited July 25, 2013 by samran

[Dork]

There's a bit of miscommunication going on here. When I mentioned the thai wife, I meant specifically because the application fee is cheaper. I have been working for three years on non imm visas, not the same ones however, non-b one year, non-o two; coming september I will be getting my third non-o extension. I have been working the entire time so I have tax receipts.

My main motivation is for purchasing a condo in thailand with the money i've made here and the fact that changes in my circumstances won't effect my ability to stay here, this is a big plus for me because I can't just take half a week off work to go grab a new visa, etc.

I did consider citizenship however the overall fee is more expensive and the application process looks far more complicated and longer to approve.

I'm still unsure about the 90 day reporting, maybe I missed it somewhere above.. does anyone know if you still need to go even with a residence permit, because I've been reading conflicting reports all over the internet.

Switching from Non-B to Non-O will be ok but it must be seamless. There can't be even a day missing between your extensions, work permits or tax receipts.

You don't need PR to buy a condo with money that you have made here. It's easy to send the funds out of Thailand and then back in again. Perhaps you mean to get a bank mortgage?

The fees for citizenship are not more than for PR. The application fee for citizenship is a few thousand Baht and then some token amounts if you're successful whereas the fees for a successful PR application are around 100K if you've been married to a Thai citizen for 3 years at the time of application and roughly double if not. I don't think the application process is much more complicated either. There are differences but the amount of documentation required is similar. Whether it takes longer to approve is hard to predict. It took me 6 years to get PR. There are some citizenship applicants that have completed the process in 2 years.

No, there is no 90 day reporting once you have PR.

It would be worthwhile for you to spend a few hours reading Camerata's PR thread. Almost anything you could need to know about PR is in there somewhere.