fasting center

[troysantos]

HIYA! Saw the article about alternative treatments reaching the mainstream. It said that some places to go for treatments are resorts, and so expensive and gave three examples. The article also said there are bare bones places. I'm interested more in a bare bones place to go for a supervised fast for perhaps a couple of weeks. Anyone have any ideas? Or, renting a house and hiring a person to come each day to supervise could work out too. Know of anyone who's got experience and perhaps certification? I speak Thai plenty well so language is not a problem. You can advise me to not fast, for this reason and for that reason, and I'd thank you for your concern and for warning me. But, really ... save it for someone else please.

[neronimo]

believe it or not Koh Pangnan is the go to place for fasting and detoxes, they have the world famous and extremely expensive Sanctuary resort

they also have 3 other centers, they are Ananda wellness resort, orion healing, montevista, they probably have many more

out of the 4 places above, orion healing is the cheapest

there is the spa resort just north of chiang mai, but its not a bare bones type of place, but worth checking out

I went to the ananda wellness resort and did a 7 day fasting detox, it was a good experience, whilst i was there a woman finished a 21 day fast/detox and on her

19th day a huge dead worm came out of her rear end, it was at least 12 inches long!!! scary stuff

have fun

[FolkGuitar]

I guess my lack of knowledge is getting the better of me, so please forgive me is this should be obvious.

Why does one need to have someone supervise a person who doesn't eat for a week? (Especially at a large expense.)

It seems to me that if you are staying hydrated there shouldn't be any problems going without food for seven days.

I don't think I've ever needed to have someone watch me NOT do something before...

[CaptainKitty]

medical supervision and counselling is important while fasting... the first 3-5 days is very difficult as your body tried to convince you to intake carbs, before it starts to burn your fat stores. For long term fasting, or medical issues like diabetes or hypoglycemia, it's best to be around people who recognize the need to eat or stop the fast etc...

There is also a Spa Resort in Koh Samui which does juice fasting and colon therapy. It's a lot cheaper than the Chiang Mai location, you can see the website

http://www.thesparesorts.net/samui

I calculated that if you get a fan room, the flight from Chiang Mai (or train) plus the program there is cheaper in than doing it in the 100$ a night rooms in Chiang Mai. If you don't have to budget, Chiang Mai location has more options for extracurricular, and looks a lot nicer

[FolkGuitar]

medical supervision and counseling is important while fasting... the first 3-5 days is very difficult as your body tried to convince you to intake carbs, before it starts to burn your fat stores.

So a fasting supervisor is someone you pay to physically hold you down somehow, or convince you to stick to your plan? Sorry to make light of it, but I've had situations where I didn't eat for a few days, but didn't feel any sort of anxiety about it... This is a bit confusing to me.

For long term fasting, or medical issues like diabetes or hypoglycemia, it's best to be around people who recognize the need to eat or stop the fast etc...

Well... yeah. Like perhaps before it starts. I would think that someone with food/physical medical issues would certainly need to have a physician near by if they were playing with the delicate balance of body needs, Actually, I'd imagine that with medical issues like diabetes or hypoglycemia, fasting would be contra-indicated.

[mania]

I have fasted a few times in my life.

Once for 5 days & in recent years for 15 days

No center or doctors & I just led a normal life while doing it.

Meaning I went to work etc.

But the fast I did was the

Stanley Burroughs master cleanse recipe

Been around for decades & the first time I did it was actually

decades ago. The last time being about 5 years ago.

These days I don't think fasting is as great an idea as I once thought.

I tend to think that these days with the other environmental pollutants etc it is a bit too toxic & tends to

be hard on your body releasing so much at once.

Of course it goes without saying folks in bad shape should not be fasting anyway.

Like FolkGuitar said & also,

By bad shape I mean folks with alcoholic tendencies or really bad fatty diets etc.

Their bodies would release too much toxins at once & could overwhelm their weakened kidneys/liver etc.

But yes these days I am not an advocate of longer fasts & prefer to see folks change their intake to

better foods & if they want to go light a day a week etc fine. Otherwise fasting can also have odd effects

when you restart your intake as your body will want to go into a hording mode

I will say that fasting with the SB recipe etc is not a big deal & after the 1st day

you could really care less if you ate or not as you have no appetite. After my longest of 15 days I stopped fasting but

not because I was hungry at all. Although you do miss taste in itself.

You do need to be careful at how you restart your system too though

Edited July 20, 2013 by mania

[CaptainKitty]

medical supervision and counseling is important while fasting... the first 3-5 days is very difficult as your body tried to convince you to intake carbs, before it starts to burn your fat stores.

So a fasting supervisor is someone you pay to physically hold you down somehow, or convince you to stick to your plan? Sorry to make light of it, but I've had situations where I didn't eat for a few days, but didn't feel any sort of anxiety about it... This is a bit confusing to me.

actually, the counselling would be for mentally "holding you down" or letting you know what's ahead. It's not easy! For most people, fasting means caffeine and sugar withdrawls, which means cravings. I'm a food addict so I suffered, wanting to put just about anything in my mouth to chew on it. I am at the point I'm not even hungry and I still obsess about certain foods. Counselling is necessary for a lot of people. For you, if you don't experience this, you are fortunate. Also, medical supervision to monitor your urine, blood pressure and weight depending on the severity of the fast. Urinalysis tells us whether or not we are burning fats, and how much, which means the diet or exercise should be adjusted to a safe level. Burning too much could cause issues like low blood pressure, dizziness, fainting. Not burning any defeats the purpose of the fast/detox.

A safe level of weight loss during a fast is .5lbs per day, for example.

Anyhow, if it's confusing to you, again, you must be different. Caffeine/sugar/sodium/fats are major factors in the average persons diet, and these are all things that the brain and body get addicted to. Coming off these can display withdraw symptoms just like any other drugs. Headaches, nausea, depression, anxiety, mood swings, obsession, lack of motivation, fatigue etc... In that situation, I believe counselling would be extremely beneficial.

ALSO, it's nice to not have to do anything alone! A lot of people join groups or clubs. Consider detoxing, fasting, or clean eating like that, something people enjoy doing and maybe would like to meet others who do the same?

Does that clarify at all?

[hellodolly]

medical supervision and counseling is important while fasting... the first 3-5 days is very difficult as your body tried to convince you to intake carbs, before it starts to burn your fat stores.

So a fasting supervisor is someone you pay to physically hold you down somehow, or convince you to stick to your plan? Sorry to make light of it, but I've had situations where I didn't eat for a few days, but didn't feel any sort of anxiety about it... This is a bit confusing to me.

For long term fasting, or medical issues like diabetes or hypoglycemia, it's best to be around people who recognize the need to eat or stop the fast etc...

Well... yeah. Like perhaps before it starts. I would think that someone with food/physical medical issues would certainly need to have a physician near by if they were playing with the delicate balance of body needs, Actually, I'd imagine that with medical issues like diabetes or hypoglycemia, fasting would be contra-indicated.

I hear people talking of fasting and my mind goes to no eating or ingesting food in any way. The longest I ever made was four days. Of course I drank water.

I once did a three day fast when I was off work. It was important to be off work. All I did was drink distilled water and not working I was able to clear out the things that were just floating around in my system that I didn't need.

If I had been working it would have defeated the purpose because I would have been producing more waste.

I loafed and joked about it. Like I would have a glass of water and tell the wife it was a hamburger I was having for dinner. I lost six pounds and the wife said my eyes just sparkled there was so much extra junk just floating around that had gone out of my system.

Here in Thailand the only distilled water I have seen is the water they put in batteries.

[FolkGuitar]

It clarifies quite a lot. Thanks for taking the time to explain it all. And good luck with your fast.

[DiamondKing]

I recently did a fast/juciing for more than 30 days and lost around 22 pounds in weight and felt fantastic throughout the time on the fast. The first few days did require some mental toughness as you go through a change within the first few days but after that I was not hungry nor did I have cravings at all during that time.

I can see how some people would like to be monitored simply because its more a mental thing and not everyone has the will power to do what is required so being under supervision in a facility would make it easier for some people but if you are healthy and have a strong willpower I see no reason to pay someone to oversee you.

I drank Juice every day breakfast was fruit juice and the rest of the day I was drinking vegetable juice since that has less natural sugars and less calories and in between juices PLENTY OF WATER.

Works great and I am not currently juicing and i have to say I feel way worse than when I was so will be going back to juicing next week when I get back from travelling but will juice just for breakfast and lunch then eat a small healthy dinner since your appetite will not be much.

I can say fasting juicing works and is fantastic.

[orang37]

believe it or not ... on her 19th day a huge dead worm came out of her rear end, it was at least 12 inches long!!!

And, you saw the worm, and measured it.

How amazing, Thailand !

~o:37;

[CaptainKitty]

On day 12/28 of my juice fast... I don't think a starvation fast would be healthy, taking nutrients away from the body doesn't seem that good of an idea... But I know juicing is a close second. Virtually no calories, just vitamins and minerals. Accompanied with colon cleansing it's very effective for removing toxins.

[neronimo]

believe it or not ... on her 19th day a huge dead worm came out of her rear end, it was at least 12 inches long!!!

And, you saw the worm, and measured it.

How amazing, Thailand !

~o:37;

Yes I saw it but I didn't measure it! lol

On day 12/28 of my juice fast... I don't think a starvation fast would be healthy, taking nutrients away from the body doesn't seem that good of an idea... But I know juicing is a close second. Virtually no calories, just vitamins and minerals. Accompanied with colon cleansing it's very effective for removing toxins.

Agree!

wow, 28 days is a long time to cleanse, please keep us updated!

[4evermaat]

Fasting is the most straightforward way to go, particularly juice fasting/feasting. Some of the food attachments may be rough, but you'll eventually get over it. Make sure the juice/smoothie is from fresh fruits/veggies....and be as consistent as possible. Better to take 2-3 of the exact same juice blends than to test 20 different blends throughout the program.

To those who are worried about detoxifying too fast.....very unlikely. The toxins have survived that long inside and you've probably already suffered months or years of ailment/discomfort. A couple of days of doing without shouldnt kill you. Especially if combined with some juicing, the cravings will eventually go away.

Especially to those who are pressed for time or need to work, i recommend clean water enemas (colon hydrotherapy). You could do the slow gravity feed method with appx 20-30 liters of water, or almost all toilets in asia are already fitted with the bum gun (turn down the pressure).

It does help to have someone with some experience guide you through the initial stages of the fast.

"...the 2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from ThaiVisa app (Galaxy Note 2).

[hellodolly]

What about juicing for people with diabetes?

[kimincm]

believe it or not ... on her 19th day a huge dead worm came out of her rear end, it was at least 12 inches long!!!

And, you saw the worm, and measured it.

How amazing, Thailand !

~o:37;

Yes I saw it but I didn't measure it! lol

On day 12/28 of my juice fast... I don't think a starvation fast would be healthy, taking nutrients away from the body doesn't seem that good of an idea... But I know juicing is a close second. Virtually no calories, just vitamins and minerals. Accompanied with colon cleansing it's very effective for removing toxins.

Agree!

wow, 28 days is a long time to cleanse, please keep us updated!

Now come on,somebody who is taking such good care of themselves as to go through this prolonged faste

couldn't find the the time to worm themselves every fortnight/month.A stitch in time bla bla bla.

[FolkGuitar]

To help me understand this process a bit further, would someone please tell me the names of these 'toxins,' (I've looked online but only see 'toxins' repeated, rather than specific chemicals.) and how the body 'stores' them. I don't mean 'they are stored inside the cells.' I mean HOW does the cell store them, take them into the cell, etc.?

And why does simply not eating cause the body to release this stuff?

I know that in the process of digestion, when stored body fat is metabolized ketone bodies are released. But these aren't something the body stores. They are the by-product of the metabolic process, and can be easily flushed out of the system with plain water. So far that is the only 'toxin' I can find a name for. What are the others?

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

To help me understand this process a bit further, would someone please tell me the names of these 'toxins,' (I've looked online but only see 'toxins' repeated, rather than specific chemicals.) and how the body 'stores' them. I don't mean 'they are stored inside the cells.' I mean HOW does the cell store them, take them into the cell, etc.?

And why does simply not eating cause the body to release this stuff?

I know that in the process of digestion, when stored body fat is metabolized ketone bodies are released. But these aren't something the body stores. They are the by-product of the metabolic process, and can be easily flushed out of the system with plain water. So far that is the only 'toxin' I can find a name for. What are the others?

toxin (tksn)

A poisonous substance, especially one produced by a living organism. Toxins can be products or byproducts of ordinary metabolism, such as lactic acid, and they must be broken down or excreted before building up to dangerous levels

A lot of people find some strategic fasting decreases muscle tension perhaps due to flushing out lactic acid.

Other possible toxins that build up in mammals

Noun 1. toxin - a poisonous substance produced during the metabolism and growth of certain microorganisms and some higher plant and animal species

ricin, ricin toxin - a toxic protein extracted from castor beans; used as a chemical reagent; can be used as a bioweapon; "one milligram of ricin can kill an adult"

poison, poisonous substance, toxicant - any substance that causes injury or illness or death of a living organism

animal toxin, zootoxin - a toxin resembling bacterial toxins in its antigenic properties that is found in the fluids of certain animals

bacterial toxin - any endotoxin or exotoxin formed in or elaborated by bacterial cells

cytotoxin - any substance that has a toxic effect on cells

endotoxin - a toxin that is confined inside the microorganisms and is released only when the microorganisms are broken down or die

exotoxin - a toxin that is secreted by microorganisms into the surrounding medium

hepatotoxin - any toxin that affects the liver

nephrotoxin - any toxin that affects the kidneys

neurolysin, neurotoxin - any toxin that affects neural tissues

phytotoxin, plant toxin - any substance produced by plants that is similar in its properties to extracellular bacterial toxin

Every time person eats a plant then they are ingesting some various phytotoxins which are their natural chemical defenses. Gluten, Phytic acid that help them survive by repelling predators.

Some examples of phytotoxins exist among the plant secondary compound classes of alkaloids, terpenes, and especially phenolics

Even salt are considered toxic if salts accumulate in interstitial fluids over certain levels

Central to the concept of fasting is decreasing the energy cost of digestion. Digestion can account for upwards of 70% of a humans energy needs.

During fasting the body has more net energy to perform self cleaning and coupled with high fluid intake improves ability to remove toxins from various tissues.

Edited July 22, 2013 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[FolkGuitar]

To help me understand this process a bit further, would someone please tell me the names of these 'toxins,' (I've looked online but only see 'toxins' repeated, rather than specific chemicals.) and how the body 'stores' them. I don't mean 'they are stored inside the cells.' I mean HOW does the cell store them, take them into the cell, etc.?

And why does simply not eating cause the body to release this stuff?

I know that in the process of digestion, when stored body fat is metabolized ketone bodies are released. But these aren't something the body stores. They are the by-product of the metabolic process, and can be easily flushed out of the system with plain water. So far that is the only 'toxin' I can find a name for. What are the others?

toxin (tksn)

A poisonous substance, especially one produced by a living organism. Toxins can be products or byproducts of ordinary metabolism, such as lactic acid, and they must be broken down or excreted before building up to dangerous levels

A lot of people find some strategic fasting decreases muscle tension perhaps due to flushing out lactic acid.

Other possible toxins that build up in mammals

Noun 1. toxin - a poisonous substance produced during the metabolism and growth of certain microorganisms and some higher plant and animal species

ricin, ricin toxin - a toxic protein extracted from castor beans; used as a chemical reagent; can be used as a bioweapon; "one milligram of ricin can kill an adult"

poison, poisonous substance, toxicant - any substance that causes injury or illness or death of a living organism

animal toxin, zootoxin - a toxin resembling bacterial toxins in its antigenic properties that is found in the fluids of certain animals

bacterial toxin - any endotoxin or exotoxin formed in or elaborated by bacterial cells

cytotoxin - any substance that has a toxic effect on cells

endotoxin - a toxin that is confined inside the microorganisms and is released only when the microorganisms are broken down or die

exotoxin - a toxin that is secreted by microorganisms into the surrounding medium

hepatotoxin - any toxin that affects the liver

nephrotoxin - any toxin that affects the kidneys

neurolysin, neurotoxin - any toxin that affects neural tissues

phytotoxin, plant toxin - any substance produced by plants that is similar in its properties to extracellular bacterial toxin

Every time person eats a plant then they are ingesting some various phytotoxins which are their natural chemical defenses. Gluten, Phytic acid that help them survive by repelling predators.

Some examples of phytotoxins exist among the plant secondary compound classes of alkaloids, terpenes, and especially phenolics

Even salt are considered toxic if salts accumulate in interstitial fluids over certain levels

Central to the concept of fasting is decreasing the energy cost of digestion. Digestion can account for upwards of 70% of a humans energy needs.

During fasting the body has more net energy to perform self cleaning and coupled with high fluid intake improves ability to remove toxins from various tissues.

Thanks for that. I do know what toxins are, and I realize that there are a plethora of them that we encounter in our daily lives, as well as the fact that the body produces them in its natural functions. As I posted before, I actually wanted to know the names of the toxins, such as lactic acid, etc., not the names of the groups of toxins such as neurotoxin or plant toxin.

Lactic acid is water soluble, so if one is hydrated it really remains in the body for more than a matter of minutes. Heavy metals can remain in the body, but fasting doesn't remove them. I've learned that the liver acts as a filter for the blood stream just as the kidneys filter the water soluble wastes, but again, fasting doesn't do much to clean them out. So what are the names of the toxins that fasting WILL clear out, and how are they stored in the body?

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

To help me understand this process a bit further, would someone please tell me the names of these 'toxins,' (I've looked online but only see 'toxins' repeated, rather than specific chemicals.) and how the body 'stores' them. I don't mean 'they are stored inside the cells.' I mean HOW does the cell store them, take them into the cell, etc.?

And why does simply not eating cause the body to release this stuff?

I know that in the process of digestion, when stored body fat is metabolized ketone bodies are released. But these aren't something the body stores. They are the by-product of the metabolic process, and can be easily flushed out of the system with plain water. So far that is the only 'toxin' I can find a name for. What are the others?

toxin (tksn)

A poisonous substance, especially one produced by a living organism. Toxins can be products or byproducts of ordinary metabolism, such as lactic acid, and they must be broken down or excreted before building up to dangerous levels

A lot of people find some strategic fasting decreases muscle tension perhaps due to flushing out lactic acid.

Other possible toxins that build up in mammals

Noun 1. toxin - a poisonous substance produced during the metabolism and growth of certain microorganisms and some higher plant and animal species

ricin, ricin toxin - a toxic protein extracted from castor beans; used as a chemical reagent; can be used as a bioweapon; "one milligram of ricin can kill an adult"

poison, poisonous substance, toxicant - any substance that causes injury or illness or death of a living organism

animal toxin, zootoxin - a toxin resembling bacterial toxins in its antigenic properties that is found in the fluids of certain animals

bacterial toxin - any endotoxin or exotoxin formed in or elaborated by bacterial cells

cytotoxin - any substance that has a toxic effect on cells

endotoxin - a toxin that is confined inside the microorganisms and is released only when the microorganisms are broken down or die

exotoxin - a toxin that is secreted by microorganisms into the surrounding medium

hepatotoxin - any toxin that affects the liver

nephrotoxin - any toxin that affects the kidneys

neurolysin, neurotoxin - any toxin that affects neural tissues

phytotoxin, plant toxin - any substance produced by plants that is similar in its properties to extracellular bacterial toxin

Every time person eats a plant then they are ingesting some various phytotoxins which are their natural chemical defenses. Gluten, Phytic acid that help them survive by repelling predators.

Some examples of phytotoxins exist among the plant secondary compound classes of alkaloids, terpenes, and especially phenolics

Even salt are considered toxic if salts accumulate in interstitial fluids over certain levels

Central to the concept of fasting is decreasing the energy cost of digestion. Digestion can account for upwards of 70% of a humans energy needs.

During fasting the body has more net energy to perform self cleaning and coupled with high fluid intake improves ability to remove toxins from various tissues.

Thanks for that. I do know what toxins are, and I realize that there are a plethora of them that we encounter in our daily lives, as well as the fact that the body produces them in its natural functions. As I posted before, I actually wanted to know the names of the toxins, such as lactic acid, etc., not the names of the groups of toxins such as neurotoxin or plant toxin.

Lactic acid is water soluble, so if one is hydrated it really remains in the body for more than a matter of minutes. Heavy metals can remain in the body, but fasting doesn't remove them. I've learned that the liver acts as a filter for the blood stream just as the kidneys filter the water soluble wastes, but again, fasting doesn't do much to clean them out. So what are the names of the toxins that fasting WILL clear out, and how are they stored in the body?

Sounds like a good research study you can undertake.

Sorry it's not like I am getting paid for this.

Lots of compounds build up like salts, oxalic acid, uric acid and yes lactic acid metabolites and other muscular byproducts persist in muscle fibers that stick together in what is called scar tissue. The poor blood flow in scar tissue prevents normal blood flow and cleaning process.

A lot of people are chronically dehydrated and the high liquid period might explain a lot of the rate of cleaning.

Fasting will generally assist normal cleaning operations. It's mostly increasing the rate of detox.

I'm not aware of specific toxins that are removed ONLY from fasting. They might very well exist but I doubt knowing about specific toxins changes the results of a fast.

If you had specific health problems like uric acid buildup causing gout then I imagine it could be measured pre and post fast to determine rate of clearance.

It would seem near impossible to know what a specific person needs to clean because there are so many variations in bio markers.

Let us know what you find out.

[FolkGuitar]

Thanks for that. I do know what toxins are, and I realize that there are a plethora of them that we encounter in our daily lives, as well as the fact that the body produces them in its natural functions. As I posted before, I actually wanted to know the names of the toxins, such as lactic acid, etc., not the names of the groups of toxins such as neurotoxin or plant toxin.

Lactic acid is water soluble, so if one is hydrated it really remains in the body for more than a matter of minutes. Heavy metals can remain in the body, but fasting doesn't remove them. I've learned that the liver acts as a filter for the blood stream just as the kidneys filter the water soluble wastes, but again, fasting doesn't do much to clean them out. So what are the names of the toxins that fasting WILL clear out, and how are they stored in the body?

Sounds like a good research study you can undertake.

Sorry it's not like I am getting paid for this.

Lots of compounds build up like salts, oxalic acid, uric acid and yes lactic acid metabolites and other muscular byproducts persist in muscle fibers that stick together in what is called scar tissue. The poor blood flow in scar tissue prevents normal blood flow and cleaning process.

A lot of people are chronically dehydrated and the high liquid period might explain a lot of the rate of cleaning.

Fasting will generally assist normal cleaning operations. It's mostly increasing the rate of detox.

I'm not aware of specific toxins that are removed ONLY from fasting. They might very well exist but I doubt knowing about specific toxins changes the results of a fast.

If you had specific health problems like uric acid buildup causing gout then I imagine it could be measured pre and post fast to determine rate of clearance.

It would seem near impossible to know what a specific person needs to clean because there are so many variations in bio markers.

Let us know what you find out.

Well, I guess I've spent about five hours searching the Internet over the past two days, looking for specifics.

I figured with all these people 'detoxing' someone MUST know what it is that they are removing. After all, they are actually doing it to their own bodies, and should know, right?

But so far, pretty much all I can find is people using the term 'detox,' but nobody actually having any notion of just what it is that they are removing from their bodies, much less any scientific information about 'before and after' studies.

Everything seems to be completely anecdotal. As in; "gee, I felt really great after detoxing with a coffee colon cleansing. But they completely ignored the fact that perhaps it was the absorption of a heavy-duty hit of caffeine through the intestinal wall making them feel so good... After all, a LOT more caffeine is going to get absorbed that way than through the stomach and all its associated acids breaking down the caffeine. (That's why suppositories were invented...) I figure somebody who is doing this sort of thing regularly, or spending hard-earned money to achieve the 'detox' goal is going to know just what it is they are doing or spending their money on. It would seem otherwise.

A lot of people are chronically dehydrated and the high liquid period might explain a lot of the rate of cleaning.

There is no doubt that for someone chronically dehydrated that the high liquid period would help them. But is there really a need to stop other foods at the same time to achieve this?

If you had specific health problems like uric acid buildup causing gout then I imagine it could be measured pre and post fast to determine rate of clearance.

Hyperuricemia, what you call 'Gout,' is a build-up of uric acid in the blood stream, resulting in deposits around the joints. It's not a build-up inside the cell structure itself. And while reducing certain foods is a reliable way to reduce the symptoms of Gout, along with certain medicines, overall fasting was never considered to be a requirement. Sure, the extra liquid will help, as will the reduction of intake of foods have a high level of purines which are compounds that go into the production of uric acid in the body. But that calls for a life-style change, rather than a 3-5 day fast.

Yes, you're right. It is making for an interesting research project...

Edited July 22, 2013 by FolkGuitar

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

You seem to be making an assumption fasting type protocols should only affect specific cells?

Why not lymph? interstitial fluids? bio films? mucus? joints? blood/plasma?

Aren't these tissues and structures also cleaned and maintained by the body?

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it but a significant aspect of fasting is not taking in more toxins or burdening the eliminative organs like kidney, liver, skin with activities like digestion.

This frees up the eliminative organs to focus on house cleaning.

It's interesting subject but very broad questions. So many different types of fasting.

Intermittent, pure water, solvent style like burroughs, juice fasting, raw foods etc. Also there are many assistive techniques used with fasting like activated charcoal, epson salts, EDTA chelation, fiber for colon cleansing, sweating, yoga for circulation and stress relief, massage just to name a few.

It's hard to even nail down what "fasting" is because it varies so much.

Searching pubmed and other study databases will yield very specific experiments but studies rarely try to swing for the fences with such broad questions and conclusions.

And another question you had is that people should know what is being cleared when they perform a fast? How would they possibly know without a lot of blood and bio marker testing?

For a lot of people like myself I find a lot of little benefits like muscle pliability, decreased sinus mucus, better digestion, less bloating, better joint mobility, less brain fog, healthier skin.

No idea how to correlate that exactly with specific buildups. My guess is that by doing some house cleaning the body natural cleaning systems are more effective but this would have to be highly variable to so many factors like the type of fast, beginning health issues, specific eliminative organ function just to name a few.

[Mestizo]

Well, I guess I've spent about five hours searching the Internet over the past two days, looking for specifics.

I figured with all these people 'detoxing' someone MUST know what it is that they are removing. After all, they are actually doing it to their own bodies, and should know, right?

But so far, pretty much all I can find is people using the term 'detox,' but nobody actually having any notion of just what it is that they are removing from their bodies, much less any scientific information about 'before and after' studies.

Everything seems to be completely anecdotal. As in; "gee, I felt really great after detoxing with a coffee colon cleansing. But they completely ignored the fact that perhaps it was the absorption of a heavy-duty hit of caffeine through the intestinal wall making them feel so good... After all, a LOT more caffeine is going to get absorbed that way than through the stomach and all its associated acids breaking down the caffeine. (That's why suppositories were invented...) I figure somebody who is doing this sort of thing regularly, or spending hard-earned money to achieve the 'detox' goal is going to know just what it is they are doing or spending their money on. It would seem otherwise.

A lot of people are chronically dehydrated and the high liquid period might explain a lot of the rate of cleaning.

There is no doubt that for someone chronically dehydrated that the high liquid period would help them. But is there really a need to stop other foods at the same time to achieve this?

If you had specific health problems like uric acid buildup causing gout then I imagine it could be measured pre and post fast to determine rate of clearance.

Hyperuricemia, what you call 'Gout,' is a build-up of uric acid in the blood stream, resulting in deposits around the joints. It's not a build-up inside the cell structure itself. And while reducing certain foods is a reliable way to reduce the symptoms of Gout, along with certain medicines, overall fasting was never considered to be a requirement. Sure, the extra liquid will help, as will the reduction of intake of foods have a high level of purines which are compounds that go into the production of uric acid in the body. But that calls for a life-style change, rather than a 3-5 day fast.

Yes, you're right. It is making for an interesting research project...

Congrats,

Your research is leading you towards the conclusion that rest of the education population has already arrived at. Juicing and "cleansing" are nothing more than dangerous fad diets, based on junk science. People are needlessly putting their bodies at nutritional risk. Its all non-sense, but thats not what some people want to hear. The proper way to become more healthy, is to cut back/ eliminate "toxins" such as caffeine, nicotine, chemically enhanced foods, etc.

Its the same with loosing weight. The only real way to lose weight long term, is to make lifestyle changes (reduce caloric intake, increase exercise). Its simple math. Weight loss = more calories burned than intaken. But some people don't want to hear that. Instead they waste all their time, energy, and money chasing harmful fad diets and magic diet pills.

Juicing/ cleansing is the same thing. People want to ignore common sense and look for a "magic bullet".

http://www.livescience.com/35561-5-experts-answer-juice-cleanse.html

-Mestizo

[FolkGuitar]

Congrats,

Your research is leading you towards the conclusion that rest of the education population has already arrived at. Juicing and "cleansing" are nothing more than dangerous fad diets, based on junk science. People are needlessly putting their bodies at nutritional risk. Its all non-sense, but thats not what some people want to hear. The proper way to become more healthy, is to cut back/ eliminate "toxins" such as caffeine, nicotine, chemically enhanced foods, etc.

Its the same with loosing weight. The only real way to lose weight long term, is to make lifestyle changes (reduce caloric intake, increase exercise). Its simple math. Weight loss = more calories burned than intaken. But some people don't want to hear that. Instead they waste all their time, energy, and money chasing harmful fad diets and magic diet pills.

Juicing/ cleansing is the same thing. People want to ignore common sense and look for a "magic bullet".

http://www.livescience.com/35561-5-experts-answer-juice-cleanse.html

-Mestizo

Well... not exactly. It IS telling me that people have absolutely NO IDEA what is going on with their bodies, and have decided to let fad diets and trends take the place of valid research and rational life-styles. Many ARE finding that they feel better, and that IS a good thing. However, we really don't know if that feeling stems from physical or psychological sources.. I wonder if that even matters?

CobraStitchNecktie said "You seem to be making an assumption fasting type protocols should only affect specific cells?" But in fact, I'm not making any assumptions at all. I'm asking for scientific validity that fasting actually is required for removing un-named toxins from the body. I'm hoping that people who fast will tell me the toxins they are removing, or in fact, how they know that they are suffering from a toxin-buildup, rather than just poor physical condition from following an unhealthy life-style.

So far, as you have said, 95% of what I've found on the internet is just vague comments about toxin buildup, followed by very detailed instructions how to remove them. Still no information about 'what' these toxins are. Again, CobraStitchNectie said; And another question you had is that people should know what is being cleared when they perform a fast? How would they possibly know without a lot of blood and bio marker testing? I really wish he were joking here...

"Hey! Step right up and get your car engine fixed up. No need to ask what we're going to do to it, but we assure you when we are finished it will be better!" And bring your checkbook, cuz we are going to charge you for it. I don't think very many people would bring their car to an outfit like this. But for some reason, people seem to be willing to bring their bodies, and find it odd that someone would think they should know what is going on!

I'm not making a judgement regarding the validity of fasting. I really don't know yet one way or the other! That's why I keep asking the questions.

What I AM seeing is that 95% of the people that I've read or listened to who fast have NO CLUE what the heck is really going on! Just very vague generalities, and are willing to put their bodies through what appears to be incredible stress in the name of good health.

I keep flashing back to Dr. Carlton Fredericks, a well-known radio commentator and writer on nutrition and health, died of a heart condition stemming from his diet and nutrition. Sagen Ishizuka, the founder of the modern-day Macrobiotic diet, didn't live past age 59...

Perhaps they should have asked more questions.

A little rational thinking goes a long way.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I wouldn't call fasting novel or fad.

It's been around since the birth of time and incorporated into many religions.

It's even in the language. Breakfast? you know breaking a fast.

Hippocrates the purported father of modern medicine recommended it as did a lot of others.

Some theorize that thru much of human history there was not that much food and people just naturally fasted longer stretches of time between feedings.

We are talking about maybe 100,000 years of lean times with semi infrequent meals. The human body probably adapted a lot to those kind of intervals and performed more cleaning and repair during those fast periods.

Just in the last few hundred years have some societies been able to eat 3 times a day and 7 days a week.

A lot of people like the intermittent fasting. Take 18 to 24 hours between meals here and there. It gives the body some rest periods without digging into reserves.

The longer fasts aren't easy and require some skill and have pitfalls. The longer fasts do pack a lot of psychological effects.

If a person can pull off a significant pure fast then its a lot of self confidence building.

[FolkGuitar]

I wouldn't call fasting novel or fad.

It's been around since the birth of time and incorporated into many religions.

It's even in the language. Breakfast? you know breaking a fast.

Hippocrates the purported father of modern medicine recommended it as did a lot of others.

er.... You might not want to bring Hippocrates into this one.. . He also advocated leeches and blood-letting, believed that a sharp nose was a sign of illness, and thought that Asclepius, the much-worshiped ancient Greek god of health and well-being was vital to good health, and the temple to Asclepius at Epidauros, in which snakes crawling over patients were used to diagnose and treat illnesses, was a viable program. (This is why there are two snakes twining around the Caduceus, the 'Rod of Asclepius'.)

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Folk Guitar.

Your just getting hung up on the word Toxin.. It has some emotional meaning or something.

Nobody is trying to make you fast. Just don't fast.

Lot's of people do yoga or get acupuncture but it's somewhat unclear why they work. They keep doing it because it works for them.

If some people experimented with fasting and they felt better or their life enriched then I really don't see how the word "toxin" or the use of "spiritual" in the case of religious fasting would be a deal breaker.

Maybe the toxin theory is total BS. Maybe it works primarily for different mechanisms.

The toxin theory of fasting might be a false association. That doesn't mean that fasting can't produce tangible benefits to someone who experiments with it.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I wouldn't call fasting novel or fad.

It's been around since the birth of time and incorporated into many religions.

It's even in the language. Breakfast? you know breaking a fast.

Hippocrates the purported father of modern medicine recommended it as did a lot of others.

er.... You might not want to bring Hippocrates into this one.. . He also advocated leeches and blood-letting, believed that a sharp nose was a sign of illness, and thought that Asclepius, the much-worshiped ancient Greek god of health and well-being was vital to good health, and the temple to Asclepius at Epidauros, in which snakes crawling over patients were used to diagnose and treat illnesses, was a viable program. (This is why there are two snakes twining around the Caduceus, the 'Rod of Asclepius'.)

okay so your agreeing fasting is not novel or fad. Thanks

[FolkGuitar]

I wouldn't call fasting novel or fad.

It's been around since the birth of time and incorporated into many religions.

It's even in the language. Breakfast? you know breaking a fast.

Hippocrates the purported father of modern medicine recommended it as did a lot of others.

er.... You might not want to bring Hippocrates into this one.. . He also advocated leeches and blood-letting, believed that a sharp nose was a sign of illness, and thought that Asclepius, the much-worshiped ancient Greek god of health and well-being was vital to good health, and the temple to Asclepius at Epidauros, in which snakes crawling over patients were used to diagnose and treat illnesses, was a viable program. (This is why there are two snakes twining around the Caduceus, the 'Rod of Asclepius'.)

okay so your agreeing fasting is not novel or fad. Thanks

Please don't put words in my mouth. Fasting is not 'new.' A 'Broccolli Fast' is novel. What is being done today is most certainly following various fads. Strictly speaking, fasting means not eating. We've modified its meaning to include taking in anything the particular fad claims is best.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Folk Guitar

Your choosing to define Fasting as being these extreme programs perhaps for argumentative reasons.

No reason to hijack a pretty good technique that is available to everyone for no cost and seems to help some. There are even some studies to back it up. See link.

Intermittent fasting is probably the most popular type now.. If you believe Google Trends measures popularity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermittent_fasting

Is it bothering you that people are fasting?

or that they are benefitting from fasting for the wrong reasons?