State Railway of Thailand: Bidding for dual-tracking project soon

[theblether]

The thing that annoys me about all of these schemes is that they have always to be overly grand, overly ambitious. BKK is approaching grid lock and BKK has to be the priority. Multi tracking out of BKK has to come first, so that the SRT can run an efficient and effective rail service in the Greater Bangkok Area.

As far as I can see the commuter rail system is well used already, maximize that first, get the BKK area moving, then build out. Actually completing the link to DM airport would be magic, and running it through to Ayyutayah a bonus. Concentrate on Bangkok, gridlock there is a calamity for everyone, and if you think it's bad now, wait till you see it in three years.

[nong38]

might be smart to build a third rail at standard guage and slowly change over to standard gauge at some point

While this sounds logical, it doesn't cater for the technical difficulties. Clearances on platforms, posts and overpasses have to be changed, bridges widened, and curve radii altered. Then you have to buy completely new rolling stock for standard gauge after that work is done, when new metre-gauge carriages are urgently required NOW.

They must preapre for standard guage at some time in the future, so now should be the time to set things in motion for that time, Skytrain is already skytrain as far as I know.

They certainly do need new kit right now I agree and that has to be metre guage stock, I know its the usual here but planning ahead is practiced elsewhere in the world and it does work.

[Lakegeneve]

It is important to distinguish between the SRT's long term plans to
a) upgrading lines and double tracking,
b ) eventual gauge conversion to standard gauge,
c) and eventual electrification of the network.

from the current HSR line plans. However, it may be that the much of the network is electrified before gauge conversion happens it is does indeed eventually occur at all.

The SRT suffered from 50 years of a lack of funding in the network and now that significant funds have finally been made available, since the previous government, it will take sometime to upgrade the network. Double tracking and track improvements are but the first phase.

The proposed HSR lines are a completely separate issue.

[Lakegeneve]

Forgot to mention that double tracking and upgrading lines will allow ave speeds to be lifted from the 40-50-60 kph range to around 90-100 kph with 120 max speeds - though some sections are planned to be built for 160 kph operations in the future once they are electrified.

With the proposed HSR lines expect 220-250 kph operational speeds even if you do read some pollies or decision makers talking about 300-350 kph. That is highly unlikely.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Lakegeneve

[Lakegeneve]

The thing that annoys me about all of these schemes is that they have always to be overly grand, overly ambitious. BKK is approaching grid lock and BKK has to be the priority. Multi tracking out of BKK has to come first, so that the SRT can run an efficient and effective rail service in the Greater Bangkok Area.

As far as I can see the commuter rail system is well used already, maximize that first, get the BKK area moving, then build out. Actually completing the link to DM airport would be magic, and running it through to Ayyutayah a bonus. Concentrate on Bangkok, gridlock there is a calamity for everyone, and if you think it's bad now, wait till you see it in three years.

The commuter rail system in BKK is shit with limited services and apart from the Cityline nothing regular nor useful exists - Eastern line to Chachongsao does have semi-regular services since it was double tracked in the early 00s - until the two SRT Red Lines are completed . The Light Red line though it opened in Dec 2012 still only has 6 services a day and won't be fully operational for some time. The Dark Red line just started construction.

I think that you may not be really aware of what is actually taking place.

The ARL was always intended to be extended to DMK and the tender should go out this year as the timeframe has actually been advanced since the 2 Airport Policy was implemented in April 2012. read back a few pages in this thread, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/369458-airport-rail-link-again-sorry/page-18#entry6632114

The new Bang Sue Terminal and new railyards at Bang Sue are the major component of what you describe as focusing on BKK, see some info on this thread, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/653268-bangkoks-mo-chit-2-bus-terminal-to-be-relocated-ahead-of-aec/page-2

The proposed new HSR lines will have the first section being a 86km section from Bang Sue to Ayuthayah so that also deals with that aspect of you post.

Metro lines wise, BKK will be finally be undergoing a huge, belatedly expansion of the metro network in the next 5-10 years. You can get further info in this thread, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/406991-the-new-skytrain/page-7#entry6589486

Most of what is planned is 5-10, in some cases 20 years, behind where it should be. BKK has been in gridlock for a while and will continue to be for many years - probably forever given the mentality status with cars. The important thing is to have a proper integrated metro and commuter network for people to use. Over time that will change some peoples habits.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Lakegeneve

[Lakegeneve]

None of this is really new news as it is part on a long term, ongoing program where the only new elements is that dates or priorities are changed every so often - usually due to blowouts in completion dates.

It is probably worth just copying a post that I made from a few months ago on another thread as it may help those that who have queries (Post #27), http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/626141-thai-railways-set-eyes-on-dual-track-system/page-2

This is a complete govt agency puff piece of old news to give the SRT Gov a few lines and some traction (pun intended). Like many of these types of regurgitated news the facts and context are not even presented correctly.

Firstly, the 2.2 trillion baht loan that the govt has budgeted is for a range of transport and logistic projects. Thankfully, for once most of it is for rail. The double tracking project is somewhat small in the whole budget being under 200 billion by my understanding;

"Of the total budget of Bt2.2 trillion, 64 per cent will fund 31 rail-related projects, 24 per cent will go to 13 road projects, 7 per cent to seven water-transport projects, and 4.75 per cent to four air-transport projects."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Thailands-location-drives-transport-investment-pla-30197376.html

Secondly, the double tracking project has been around for over last decade. It is not a new program. The Dems when they were in power allocated a significant budget to both speed up the implementation and expand the program.

I posted a map of the program on another TV thread last July 2012, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/556919-bangkok-chiang-mai-high-speed-rail-ready-by-2018-transport-ministry/page-10#entry6050255

For those that can read thai the next Phases of the program are detailed in this article, http://www.bangkokbiznews.com/home/detail/business/business/20130305/493255/%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%9F%E0%B8%97.%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%94%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B0%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%B9%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%81.%E0%B8%A2.%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%B5%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%84%E0%B8%B9%E0%B9%886%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%AA%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%878%E0%B8%AB%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%B7%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%A5..html

Translated as:

(Note Phases on the above map and the below translation will not exactly match due to recent adjustments)

Phase One:

1. Chachoengsao - Klong 19 - Kaeng Khoi (106 km) at 11.348 billion Baht

2. Map Krabao - Thanon Jira (132 km) at 19.017 billion Baht

3. Nakhon Pathom - Nong Pladuk - Hua Hin (165 km) at 17.856 billion Baht

4. Lopburi - Nakhon Sawan (118 km) at 10.938 billion Baht

5. Thanon Jira - Khon Kaen (185 km) at 17.046 billion Baht

6. Prachuab Khirikhan - Chumprn (167 km) at 10.312 billion Baht

total 873 km at 86.517 billion Baht

Phase Two: from 2015-2020 - 6 routes 1025 km 78.128 billion Baht

1. Kaeng Khoi - Lum Narai - Bua Yai 220 km 18.075 billion Baht

2. Nakhon Sawan - Taphan Hin 69 km 6.259 billion Baht

3. Hua Hin - Prachuab Khirikhan - 89 km 5.499 billion baht

4. Chumporn - Surat Tahni - 166 km 17 billion Baht

5. Thanon Chira - Ubon - 309 km 23.174 billion Baht

6. Khon Kaen - Nong Khai 172 km 14.877 billion Baht

(Note: translation courtesy of Khun wisarut at 2bangkok.com)

In thailand old news is often regurgitated many times as new news. Reading the gaps in facts between the lines makes that obvious as does a simple google search.

I believe the plan you have shown is the over all plan.

How ever it is not the over all plan for the Government to do.

For instance they plan on doing phase one on the Bangkok Chiang Mai route.

What they don't put in their plan is that they plan on private business to do the next two phases.

It would be nice if they were to put forth their plans for the 2.2 Trillion baht loan not ones including only part way. I believe of the three HSR plans the plan is to only do one all the way themselves.

It would be nice if the first thing on the list of to do things was bring the maintenance of all the tracks in Thailand up to safety standards and then start with their ideas for HSR service.

I believe that you may have misunderstood what was posted or I have misunderstood what you have written.

The map and plan shown is the Master Plan for the Double Tracking Program, as it is titled. Though the dates have changed since 2010 much of the phased implementation is the same. Yes it does not show the full plans for railways in thailand but that is because it is about the Double Tracking program only. As this thread is also about that issue.

I don't understand what you are saying in your 2nd para, sorry . (Though to correct you there are 4 HSR lines proposed)

However, what you state in the last sentence is basically what is happening as upgrading of the network has been going on for many years and will intensify for the next decade or so. The issue is, do you wait another 10 years before you start planning for new HSR lines (The Rayong Eastern HSR line was first proposed in 1996!! Had the Dems been elected in 2011 the Eastern HSR line would already be under construction) or do you start the planning process now? (Knowing that as with everything in Thailand there will be delays).

[bunnydrops]

might be smart to build a third rail at standard guage and slowly change over to standard gauge at some point

That might be what they are going to do. My understanding is that the HSR is going to be put in on completely different routes. less turns, less hills. The one from Bangkok to Nong khai will not even go though Korat but meet the existing train route at Bua Yai.

As I have posted before they are almost finished redoing the grades, new rock, ties and put in longer rails on the Korat to Nong Khai. I was surprised they didn't do two lines, but did put in more side tracks.

[callao]

must be hard to find new 1 meter gauge railroad equipment

[callao]

I understand that China is spending the money for high speed rail as part of a plan to have interconnected rail lines thru China, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, Burma, Thailand, Malaysia for freight and container traffic so sooner than later you need to change over to what everybody else is going to have NO?

[Lakegeneve]

I understand that China is spending the money for high speed rail as part of a plan to have interconnected rail lines thru China, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, Burma, Thailand, Malaysia for freight and container traffic so sooner than later you need to change over to what everybody else is going to have NO?

Yes but generally no.

China has offered to give Laos a US$6 billion low interest loan for the proposed standard gauge HSR line there which would link Yannan province with Thailand (Nong Khai). The line is very expensive for a country like Laos as it would require numerous tunnels and bridges. A Malaysian company wants to build a new metre gauge line from Savan across Laos to the Vietnam border and the hope Vietnam will build the link to down to the coast to link with the main N-S Vietnam line. (Thailand is going to build a new meter gauge line to Mukdahan). Another line from Hanoi to Laos is also tentatively proposed.

Vietnam was proposing their own HSR - they would never want the Chinese to fund it, too proud for that - from HCM to Hanoi with Japanese funding. It was going to cost some US$35 billion but it was canned 18 months ago. It will make a comeback in the future given the potential sums and corruption opportunities but realistically it is too much for Vietnam. The proposed meter gauge line from HCM to PP is being surveyed for the exact route with an expectation it will be built by 2020 (The Vietnamese state 2016/7 but that is unrealistic)

Cambodia has no HSR plans. ADB has funded - mainly with Australian money - the rehabilitation of the previous network which was unuseable save for the infamous 'bamboo trains'. The Sihanoukville line was completed late last year. The PP to Thai border line might be finished by mid next year (Thailand is rebuilding the missing 6kms from Aran to Poipet, work starting late this year). A Chinese company has proposed to build a US$1.5 billion north south line to a new port for a mine proposal but the whole project is very suspect.

Burma has no HSR plans. Still gradually expanding their meter gauge network. The 'death railway' will essentially be rebuilt with a new line into Thailand for the Dewei Port development. Still talk of a line from Mae Sot area into Burma but probably unrealistic.

Malaysia is well advanced is a double tracking program of their whole meter gauge network. The KL to Singapore HSR line is back on the agenda and will most likely get approved early next year - current feasibility study. No plan to build HSR rail to the north of Malaysia or link with Thailands proposed HSR south line.

Most of the plans are the fruition of the long proposed UN auspiced TAR (Trans Asia Railway) process, SE Asia section which has had the aim of linking all SE Asian countries by rail mainly for freight purposes. The infamous Beijing to Singapore line. The original aim was for connections to be completed by 2015. I think 2025 is the current timeframe.

More recent HSR line proposals are separate of this. (You can find more info on the TAR and proposed lines for each country at 2Bangkok.com site)

[Bagwan]

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/VirtualArchive/great-western/

Mixed gauge? 555555 It took the GWR (God's Wonderful Railway) only 32 years to convert their network to standard gauge. Because he built to 2140mm the line was without severe curves and the laying of standard gauge did not require the acquisition of additional land. Standard gauge will not be able to following the narrow gauge route in many places, particulary in hilly country, necesitating extensive civil engineering works. Don't even think of Thailand acquiring tilting trains.

[Bagwan]

might be smart to build a third rail at standard guage and slowly change over to standard gauge at some point

No it won't.

[harrry]

In Western Australia they constructed 100 km of Perth to Mandurah railway in years. It carries trains at 180kmh though in very high temperature days speed has to be reduced to about 120kmh.

Most of the time it follows a freway.

THey could build a combined freeway and an elevated moderate speed line like this quickly if they want to.Elevated would be best for this as it passes through flood plains.

Possible. Yes. Likely No.

[Farangdam]

double tracking is nothing thailand need hi speed train.....

[harrry]

double tracking is nothing thailand need hi speed train.....

A shortened reliable double track route will be much more valuable to thailand the high speed rail ever will.

[callao]

I understand that China is spending the money for high speed rail as part of a plan to have interconnected rail lines thru China, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, Burma, Thailand, Malaysia for freight and container traffic so sooner than later you need to change over to what everybody else is going to have NO?

Yes but generally no.

China has offered to give Laos a US$6 billion low interest loan for the proposed standard gauge HSR line there which would link Yannan province with Thailand (Nong Khai). The line is very expensive for a country like Laos as it would require numerous tunnels and bridges. A Malaysian company wants to build a new metre gauge line from Savan across Laos to the Vietnam border and the hope Vietnam will build the link to down to the coast to link with the main N-S Vietnam line. (Thailand is going to build a new meter gauge line to Mukdahan). Another line from Hanoi to Laos is also tentatively proposed.

Vietnam was proposing their own HSR - they would never want the Chinese to fund it, too proud for that - from HCM to Hanoi with Japanese funding. It was going to cost some US$35 billion but it was canned 18 months ago. It will make a comeback in the future given the potential sums and corruption opportunities but realistically it is too much for Vietnam. The proposed meter gauge line from HCM to PP is being surveyed for the exact route with an expectation it will be built by 2020 (The Vietnamese state 2016/7 but that is unrealistic)

Cambodia has no HSR plans. ADB has funded - mainly with Australian money - the rehabilitation of the previous network which was unuseable save for the infamous 'bamboo trains'. The Sihanoukville line was completed late last year. The PP to Thai border line might be finished by mid next year (Thailand is rebuilding the missing 6kms from Aran to Poipet, work starting late this year). A Chinese company has proposed to build a US$1.5 billion north south line to a new port for a mine proposal but the whole project is very suspect.

Burma has no HSR plans. Still gradually expanding their meter gauge network. The 'death railway' will essentially be rebuilt with a new line into Thailand for the Dewei Port development. Still talk of a line from Mae Sot area into Burma but probably unrealistic.

Malaysia is well advanced is a double tracking program of their whole meter gauge network. The KL to Singapore HSR line is back on the agenda and will most likely get approved early next year - current feasibility study. No plan to build HSR rail to the north of Malaysia or link with Thailands proposed HSR south line.

Most of the plans are the fruition of the long proposed UN auspiced TAR (Trans Asia Railway) process, SE Asia section which has had the aim of linking all SE Asian countries by rail mainly for freight purposes. The infamous Beijing to Singapore line. The original aim was for connections to be completed by 2015. I think 2025 is the current timeframe.

More recent HSR line proposals are separate of this. (You can find more info on the TAR and proposed lines for each country at 2Bangkok.com site)

thanx for the info, spelled it out to where I could even understand it, sound like a lot of countries blowing a lot of hot air

[Lakegeneve]

might be smart to build a third rail at standard guage and slowly change over to standard gauge at some point

That might be what they are going to do. My understanding is that the HSR is going to be put in on completely different routes. less turns, less hills. The one from Bangkok to Nong khai will not even go though Korat but meet the existing train route at Bua Yai.

As I have posted before they are almost finished redoing the grades, new rock, ties and put in longer rails on the Korat to Nong Khai. I was surprised they didn't do two lines, but did put in more side tracks.

If you refer to the table that I posted (which is from 2010) the 172km from KK to Nong Khai is listed under Phase 2 being from 2015-2019. Given some of Phase 1 is running 2 years behind schedule then most likely that timeframe will be delayed. We'll have to wait and see.

Most likely the works that you have seen are from another previous contract that was probably delayed.

[Lakegeneve]

"As long as it is track that you could put a high sped train on in the future." Quote Hellodolly

HD, from my experience in China, the HSR will need dedicated, elevated tracks with long, gradual curves, as others have said here. That will be yonks away, so they need to fix up/replace the existing rail infrastructure, and when/if the HSR gets built, the 2 will need to co-exist, as not every passenger will be able to afford or need the HSR and Thailand will still need freight trains/lines as well.

Exactly.

There is no way that the existing tracks can be used for HSR. Hundreds of level crossings would be a nightmare if a train hit a bus or truck on one of them. The HSR will need land acquisition in places to build the elevated track which may well end up taking a separate route to the existing tracks (unless they build it over the existing tracks, Hopewell style).

However, before any of that happens the government needs to conduct feasibility studies to determine if the whole idea is worthwhile. They'll screw things up again - just like the flood-abatement projects - if they don't. Yinglucks veggie trains rather points to the HSR idea being far from thought through.

I agree Sorry to have been so unclear on that post.

and as I said in a later post the first thing they should do is bring all the tracks maintenance up to acceptable standards.

Then build new lines and these new lines should be able to put a HSR on. Or in 25 years we will be talking the same thing as today.

Today's trains could run on dedicated, elevated tracks with long, gradual curves.

In fact they could even give better service on them with fewer auto mishaps.

Do the work that needs being done now then plan and build for the future.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the proposed new HSR lines. I think I have addressed much of that in the posts above.

Most likely this video of the proposed Rayong HSR line helps as you can clearly see the fact that new standard gauge HSR lines will be completely separate from the current - and future double tracked - meter gauge network.

Watch from around the 4min mark,

[Morakot]

First upgrading to dual tracks, then to normal gauge.

[Lakegeneve]

First upgrading to dual tracks, then to normal gauge.

Second, try to use your reading skills and read through the thread for a few minutes and you'll see how your poor attempt at cynical insight is completely wrong on 3 counts!

There is plenty to critique & criticize in this area, rightly & justly so given it involves the SRT & MOT. However, it first takes the ability to read info and some capacity for critical analysis.

Give it a try then pls come back with some insightful and witty cynicism! You might even highlight issues worthy of a considered debate.

[Morakot]

Dear contributor,

Many thanks for your message, instigating this important debate. I will review the suggested reading list and examine the relevant material in detail.

Again my thanks for your careful guidance on this topic.

Yours gratefully,

Edited July 25, 2013 by Morakot

[Lakegeneve]

Dear contributor,

Many thanks for your message, instigating this important debate. I will review the suggested reading list and examine the relevant material in detail.

Again my thanks for your careful guidance on this topic.

Yours gratefully,

555 Fantastic! Bravo! This has to be one of the best responses ever on TV.

The dual interpretation of being both literal and as subtle sarcasm is an excellent and wonderful response. Could teach those who resort to needless slagging and name calling a few things!

Cheers Morakot.