Bangkok-Chiang Mai High Speed Rail Ready By 2018: Transport Ministry

[Cnxforever]

Well America was built on dreams if you remember. Walter Mitty a fictional character also built on dreams. The cynicism on this site is just unbelievable, but I guess you know best eh!

If the dream was based on competent engineering and astute business practices, you might have a hope. As it is, it is based on the alleged want of a rich woman with no experience, a history of disastrous policies, and to be paid for with other peoples' money - that is if the intention to build it is there, rather than a pretense for a huge loan to enable even more corruption.

Masturbation will not get you any closer to shagging Miss World.

Has anyone seen a cost/return estimate? How many people paying B150 a trip will it take to pay for a trillion+ capital outlay and huge operating expenses? Or doesn't details like that matter in dreams?

I thought it is rather based on an absolutly outdated rail system in Thailand which is in urgent need of renewal!

All the people lamenting here have probably also complaint when Suvarnbhumi airport was planned and built - previous governments had talked for more then 20 years about a new airport - nothing but talk - fact is the TRT government built it.

Can you imagine the chaos today at Don Muang if the new airport would never have been built?

And please don't reply to me that it was only built so certain people could get rich - I know that already - this is Thailand corruption is already calculated in - it has always been that way and will stay like this for the forseeable future.

I would love to be able hop on a HST in Chiang Mai and arrive in BKK 3 hours later! Avoiding hours of travelling to and from airports, check ins, security checks, waiting in overcrowded airports or dangerous car trips on substandard roads!

An alternative to the HST would of course be to built a proper "Autobahn" what they call a "Highway" now between Bangkok and Chiang Mai is a joke on several stretches it is outright dangerous!

[theblether]

Just building the link to Don Muang would be a start.......

[OzMick]

I remember when the sky train was never going to happen and also the underground it did and thats a fact. This will happen like it or not. Cash does not come in to it. Like the tallest building etc its all face. You should know that.

We seem to agree that it SHOULD NOT happen, only differ on whether it will. I hope that an attempt to build a White Elephant, Special Class, will be seen for what it is, just another scam and nipped in the bud.

Thai Thai train system is outdated and almost obsolete, so it needs to be upgraded. Why not upgrade to the latest technology? This would serve the Thai people as well as the Government. Also are you saying that corruption is an Asian thing. Lots of examples of Western corruption to be found.

I am strongly in favour of upgrading the Thai rail system, which is SLOWLY being carried out. But I see no need for a HSR, which is passenger only, and which 90% of Thais will never afford to ride. The cost of the HSR spent on the existing system could easily double the speed of current express trains AND goods delivery.

BTW I am talking about the corruption of THIS government. Give me one example of a western government pouring 10% of revenue into a black hole and achieving nothing except enrichment of the wealthy (in the government).

[Ricardo]

I prefer to call it cynicism which is not quite the same as experience. My take on this is that it will go ahead and it will be built and possibly funded by the Chinese, but only time will tell. I agree that Thais are not very capable when it comes to engineering projects and thats why they outsource.

What the Chinese may (I hope) fund and build will be a medium-speed freight-line going nowhere near Chiang Mai. If the numbers still add up for them, and they do decide to go ahead, good for them. It might even benefit Thailand slightly, while construction is underway, and provided it didn't lead to a flood of cheap goods competing with local-production afterwards.

The high-speed passenger-network proposed by PTP won't reach the borders, won't even reach Chiang Mai (it ends at Uttaradit), and involves 50-year borrowing to fund it, and which the Thai public have yet to see any cost/benefit analysis of. The Thai government hope that private-capital might complete the more-difficult/expensive remainder of the route sometime, erm ... really ? But I do agree that the SRT already have their hands full, with the track-dualling project, so taking the high-speed network out of their hands does make sense.

I'd question whether there is sufficient demand, to link Bangkok & Chiang Mai profitably at the sort of fares previously mentioned, especially without the last stage through the mountains which currently takes about four hours for SRT's trains to negotiate. High-speed to Uttaradit, then a crawl the rest of the way, simply won't do it.

Some sort of compromise-solution, if the Chinese freight-route ran through the North-West & a spur off it to Chiang Mai could be built by the Thais, might be worth examining, but I don't think anyone is currently discussing that option ? Or a transport-hub serving the North-West, located on the Chinese line, well maybe.

Unless the capital were to migrate to Chiang Mai, or there were to be a massive change in the patterns-of-trade, I can't see it being commercial but let's see the studies (if they exist), and judge on the facts ! Until then I really don't expect to see this running in 2018 as promised. In fact, I'd lay odds it won't, and I'm not a gambling-man.

[hellodolly]

I prefer to call it cynicism which is not quite the same as experience. My take on this is that it will go ahead and it will be built and possibly funded by the Chinese, but only time will tell. I agree that Thais are not very capable when it comes to engineering projects and thats why they outsource.

What the Chinese may (I hope) fund and build will be a medium-speed freight-line going nowhere near Chiang Mai. If the numbers still add up for them, and they do decide to go ahead, good for them. It might even benefit Thailand slightly, while construction is underway, and provided it didn't lead to a flood of cheap goods competing with local-production afterwards.

The high-speed passenger-network proposed by PTP won't reach the borders, won't even reach Chiang Mai (it ends at Uttaradit), and involves 50-year borrowing to fund it, and which the Thai public have yet to see any cost/benefit analysis of. The Thai government hope that private-capital might complete the more-difficult/expensive remainder of the route sometime, erm ... really ? But I do agree that the SRT already have their hands full, with the track-dualling project, so taking the high-speed network out of their hands does make sense.

I'd question whether there is sufficient demand, to link Bangkok & Chiang Mai profitably at the sort of fares previously mentioned, especially without the last stage through the mountains which currently takes about four hours for SRT's trains to negotiate. High-speed to Uttaradit, then a crawl the rest of the way, simply won't do it.

Some sort of compromise-solution, if the Chinese freight-route ran through the North-West & a spur off it to Chiang Mai could be built by the Thais, might be worth examining, but I don't think anyone is currently discussing that option ? Or a transport-hub serving the North-West, located on the Chinese line, well maybe.

Unless the capital were to migrate to Chiang Mai, or there were to be a massive change in the patterns-of-trade, I can't see it being commercial but let's see the studies (if they exist), and judge on the facts ! Until then I really don't expect to see this running in 2018 as promised. In fact, I'd lay odds it won't, and I'm not a gambling-man.

I am sticking to my 2045 completion date. I could be wrong but when the Chinese first approached tghe Thai government about there plan from Singapore to Peking I think it was mentioned that a line going to Chiang Rai was more feasible than Chiang Mai. I believe it was to be a spur from the one proposed by China.

278 posts so far by a whole bunch of different posters. I wonder how many of them really think The Government is going to build the whole thing with the 2.2 trillion baht loan that is in reality a very highly doubtful reality. In fact I doubt very few of them know that the Government does not and has not proposed that they do it. They were talking of two other HST systems. If I remember correctly they were only going to build one and part of the other one.

[hellodolly]

I prefer to call it cynicism which is not quite the same as experience. My take on this is that it will go ahead and it will be built and possibly funded by the Chinese, but only time will tell. I agree that Thais are not very capable when it comes to engineering projects and thats why they outsource.

What the Chinese may (I hope) fund and build will be a medium-speed freight-line going nowhere near Chiang Mai. If the numbers still add up for them, and they do decide to go ahead, good for them. It might even benefit Thailand slightly, while construction is underway, and provided it didn't lead to a flood of cheap goods competing with local-production afterwards.

The high-speed passenger-network proposed by PTP won't reach the borders, won't even reach Chiang Mai (it ends at Uttaradit), and involves 50-year borrowing to fund it, and which the Thai public have yet to see any cost/benefit analysis of. The Thai government hope that private-capital might complete the more-difficult/expensive remainder of the route sometime, erm ... really ? But I do agree that the SRT already have their hands full, with the track-dualling project, so taking the high-speed network out of their hands does make sense.

I'd question whether there is sufficient demand, to link Bangkok & Chiang Mai profitably at the sort of fares previously mentioned, especially without the last stage through the mountains which currently takes about four hours for SRT's trains to negotiate. High-speed to Uttaradit, then a crawl the rest of the way, simply won't do it.

Some sort of compromise-solution, if the Chinese freight-route ran through the North-West & a spur off it to Chiang Mai could be built by the Thais, might be worth examining, but I don't think anyone is currently discussing that option ? Or a transport-hub serving the North-West, located on the Chinese line, well maybe.

Unless the capital were to migrate to Chiang Mai, or there were to be a massive change in the patterns-of-trade, I can't see it being commercial but let's see the studies (if they exist), and judge on the facts ! Until then I really don't expect to see this running in 2018 as promised. In fact, I'd lay odds it won't, and I'm not a gambling-man.

I am sticking to my 2045 completion date. I could be wrong but when the Chinese first approached tghe Thai government about there plan from Singapore to Peking I think it was mentioned that a line going to Chiang Rai was more feasible than Chiang Mai. I believe it was to be a spur from the one proposed by China.

278 posts so far by a whole bunch of different posters. I wonder how many of them really think The Government is going to build the whole thing with the 2.2 trillion baht loan that is in reality a very highly doubtful reality. In fact I doubt very few of them know that the Government does not and has not proposed that they do it. They were talking of two other HST systems. If I remember correctly they were only going to build one and part of the other one.

[ginjag]

Seem to be getting thigs a bit crossoppled, High speed Rail for a few goods and passengers, NOT freight.

This Chiang Mai thing is for WHO ????

Looking at the new system, if I was deciding, 1st priority would be to link the top 4 (out of the 5) biggest cities in Thailand. Has to be BKK- Khorat-Khon Khen- Udon Thani.--and on to Nong Khai-Laos.

Most freight/ passenger usage has to be Highway 2. (guessing)

It only makes sense to me to start here.

If you want a fast direct service to Chiang Mai, you would FLY, and I'm sure all the High end travellers will do that along with the officials that move around.

There is more to this CM link than meets the eye -sure. My thinking is not everyones, granted.

[lungmi]

Utopical megano plan.

You have to make absolutely new tracks from Chiang Mai to Bangkok.

From Lamphun to Uttaradit you need some tunnels (maximum speed 100km/h)

Then the tracks must be 100% protected against water, new bridges everywhere.

All this done, the average speed will be about 140 km/h.

Air planes are cheaper.

[mjsansai]

This will never happen, You're all nieve to believe this.

[Thereisnoif]

Utopical megano plan.

You have to make absolutely new tracks from Chiang Mai to Bangkok.

From Lamphun to Uttaradit you need some tunnels (maximum speed 100km/h)

Then the tracks must be 100% protected against water, new bridges everywhere.

All this done, the average speed will be about 140 km/h.

Air planes are cheaper.

I agree with you that this is never going to happen , but you can run trains in tunnels at much higher speeds than 100 km/h

[bigbamboo]

This would be a massive undertaking for a major nation let alone a third world nation and it makes no practical or financial sense to run it from BKK to CM.

The only way a fast (not high speed) rail link will ever be built is if Thailand becomes part of China in the future.

[Jay Sata]

The money is probably earmarked for vote bribes in the next election.

[rametindallas]

Can anyone name a country that has HSR in mountainous areas similar to Chiang Mai. Baht 2.2 trillion will not be enough to build this line because of all the viaducts over valleys and tunnel through mountains. This line will never pay for its construction costs not to mention daily operational costs. It will be operated by SRT, the most incompetent of all government agencies. There is no way that trains can compete with airplanes on this route. This article will give readers an idea of the engineering challenges this project faces: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov/12/local/la-me-bullet-mountains-20121113

Frankly speaking, this California project will not happen so what are the chances in Thailand?

The chances are that the Chinese want to build it and build it they will.

Couldn't answer the first question, hey? Since the engineering makes no sense, what's the point of building HSR to Pitsunolok and then passengers have to find alternative transportation to CM. Thailand would benefit from upgrading to wide-gauge double tracks but HSR is a project to extract the most benefit for corrupt politicians only; it is a boondoggle.

Sure, the Chinese want to build it... as long as they don't have to pay for it. I'm sure a lot of companies would like to build it. It's a lucrative business, government contracts in Thailand. I don't think the problem is that they can't find someone to build it.

China has a state-run economy and that economy nor its decisions can be compared to a capitalist economy. In a capitalist economy, projects must be practical and not lose money. In China they have a huge trade surplus and use that to fund make-work projects to keep the people from rising up against the government. Thailand is a capitalist country last time I looked.

Like Thereisnoif said, "Keep dreaming".

[rametindallas]

I remember when the sky train was never going to happen and also the underground it did and thats a fact. This will happen like it or not. Cash does not come in to it. Like the tallest building etc its all face. You should know that.

We seem to agree that it SHOULD NOT happen, only differ on whether it will. I hope that an attempt to build a White Elephant, Special Class, will be seen for what it is, just another scam and nipped in the bud.

Thai Thai train system is outdated and almost obsolete, so it needs to be upgraded. Why not upgrade to the latest technology? This would serve the Thai people as well as the Government. Also are you saying that corruption is an Asian thing. Lots of examples of Western corruption to be found.

Is that like saying I am so poor I let my old car get outdated and almost obsolete so why shouldn't I upgrade to a the latest technology; a Veyron?

Thailand does need to upgrade its train system but for hauling (wide gauge, double tracks) freight and some passengers and get the most benefit for the least price. The money wasted on the extravagance of a passengers only HSR could be spent better on any number of worthier projects such as flood walls for Bangkok.

[rametindallas]

Utopical megano plan.

You have to make absolutely new tracks from Chiang Mai to Bangkok.

From Lamphun to Uttaradit you need some tunnels (maximum speed 100km/h)

Then the tracks must be 100% protected against water, new bridges everywhere.

All this done, the average speed will be about 140 km/h.

Air planes are cheaper.

I agree with you that this is never going to happen , but you can run trains in tunnels at much higher speeds than 100 km/h

On a flat, yes. Not enough power uphill and too dangerous downhill.

[Jay Sata]

Is that like saying I am so poor I let my old car get outdated and almost obsolete so why shouldn't I upgrade to a the latest technology; a Veyron?

Do Bugatti do a Veyron pick up by any chance?

[bangkokrick]

I remember when the sky train was never going to happen and also the underground it did and thats a fact. This will happen like it or not. Cash does not come in to it. Like the tallest building etc its all face. You should know that.

We seem to agree that it SHOULD NOT happen, only differ on whether it will. I hope that an attempt to build a White Elephant, Special Class, will be seen for what it is, just another scam and nipped in the bud.

Thai Thai train system is outdated and almost obsolete, so it needs to be upgraded. Why not upgrade to the latest technology? This would serve the Thai people as well as the Government. Also are you saying that corruption is an Asian thing. Lots of examples of Western corruption to be found.

I am strongly in favour of upgrading the Thai rail system, which is SLOWLY being carried out. But I see no need for a HSR, which is passenger only, and which 90% of Thais will never afford to ride. The cost of the HSR spent on the existing system could easily double the speed of current express trains AND goods delivery.

BTW I am talking about the corruption of THIS government. Give me one example of a western government pouring 10% of revenue into a black hole and achieving nothing except enrichment of the wealthy (in the government).

One example is the US in Iraq. Pouring in billions and taking out the oil, but that should be discussed on another thread.

[bangkokrick]

I remember when the sky train was never going to happen and also the underground it did and thats a fact. This will happen like it or not. Cash does not come in to it. Like the tallest building etc its all face. You should know that.

We seem to agree that it SHOULD NOT happen, only differ on whether it will. I hope that an attempt to build a White Elephant, Special Class, will be seen for what it is, just another scam and nipped in the bud.

Thai Thai train system is outdated and almost obsolete, so it needs to be upgraded. Why not upgrade to the latest technology? This would serve the Thai people as well as the Government. Also are you saying that corruption is an Asian thing. Lots of examples of Western corruption to be found.

Is that like saying I am so poor I let my old car get outdated and almost obsolete so why shouldn't I upgrade to a the latest technology; a Veyron?

Thailand does need to upgrade its train system but for hauling (wide gauge, double tracks) freight and some passengers and get the most benefit for the least price. The money wasted on the extravagance of a passengers only HSR could be spent better on any number of worthier projects such as flood walls for Bangkok.

Yor analogy is poor and not relevant. This investment would benefit the people of Thailand not only the rich. We agree on the train system upgrade anyway.

[bangkokrick]

The former chinese colleage of this minister, the promoter of the High Speed Trains in China, has just been condemned to the death penalty for corruption.

http://www.lemonde.fr/asie-pacifique/article/2013/07/08/chine-un-ancien-ministre-condamne_3443858_3216.html

I don't understand the ignorance of some posters.

1. It's an international corruption project.

2. The technology of these trains does'nt fit with Thailand.

Absolute rubbish. I doubt that you have ridden one of these trains let alone been to China.

[monkey4u]

Open in 2018 and closed the next day due to serious lack of funds to run it

A spokesperson said the money just vanished

[Mosha]

Doesn't a feasibility study try to determine WHETHER the project is feasible? Perhaps announcing the completion date is a little premature.

Some of the land in the railway corridors may need to be resumed, I guess... and equipment purchased... that's a lot of concrete and rails... 6 years, huh? ... hmmmmm

Not that long ago was it the an anouncement was made regarding a white elephant being borrowed by Chiang Mai Zoo? We know what happened with that one.

[OzMick]

I am strongly in favour of upgrading the Thai rail system, which is SLOWLY being carried out. But I see no need for a HSR, which is passenger only, and which 90% of Thais will never afford to ride. The cost of the HSR spent on the existing system could easily double the speed of current express trains AND goods delivery.

BTW I am talking about the corruption of THIS government. Give me one example of a western government pouring 10% of revenue into a black hole and achieving nothing except enrichment of the wealthy (in the government).

One example is the US in Iraq. Pouring in billions and taking out the oil, but that should be discussed on another thread.

Not to mention that it was a pitiful attempt to meet the parameters requested.

[bangkokrick]

I am strongly in favour of upgrading the Thai rail system, which is SLOWLY being carried out. But I see no need for a HSR, which is passenger only, and which 90% of Thais will never afford to ride. The cost of the HSR spent on the existing system could easily double the speed of current express trains AND goods delivery.

BTW I am talking about the corruption of THIS government. Give me one example of a western government pouring 10% of revenue into a black hole and achieving nothing except enrichment of the wealthy (in the government).

One example is the US in Iraq. Pouring in billions and taking out the oil, but that should be discussed on another thread.

Not to mention that it was a pitiful attempt to meet the parameters requested.

Mick We obviously do not agree on this matter so lets just beg to differ. My post does meet your parameters its a complete waste of money and the only winner is the government. However as said that is a different subject.

[ourmanflint]

The Thai government dropped the ball on this one, and now it will never ever happen. The Chinese freight train will be run across Yunnan and into Burma, then down to the convenient deep water port the Chinese have been building at Kyauk Phu for the past 5 years, or to Dawei.

Edited July 11, 2013 by ourmanflint

[MaxLee]

The Thai government dropped the ball on this one, and now it will never ever happen. The Chinese freight train will be run across Yunnan and into Burma, then down to the convenient deep water port the Chinese have been building at Kyauk Phu for the past 5 years, or to Dawei.

It'd BETTER not happen, or another trillion kachillian Baht is gone due to ANOTHER TRANSPORTATION SCAM