You seem to be excessively irritated by the fact I've pointed out that there are millions of anti Zionist Jews.

I am irritated by the fact that it is not a fact. You keep repeating something that you have no evidence for and which I do not believe is true.

There is a general consensus that time is running out for any chance of a peaceful two state solution.

I hope it can happen but I see no logical reason to be optimistic based on history.

I do think even without a two state solution Israel will find a way to keep existing but it would be even less "nice" than it is now.

Realistically, I think an even more severely right wing Israel would find itself even more isolated in the world. But Jews will still support it's existence. Overwhelmingly, as during the founding of Israel, as in the many wars, as now.

Edited July 28, 201312 yr by Jingthing

You seem to be excessively irritated by the fact I've pointed out that there are millions of anti Zionist Jews.

I am irritated by the fact that it is not a fact. You keep repeating something that you have no evidence for and which I do not believe is true.

Exactly. He is pushing a blatant FALSEHOOD. That's kind of outrageous.

I am defining anti-Zionist as being opposed to the EXISTENCE of the state of Israel.

That's what he seems to be saying as well, over the course of this thread, equating anti-Zionist with against the EXISTENCE of Israel.

If he only means, some CRITICISM that's another matter entirely.

Almost all Jews are critical!

Edited July 28, 201312 yr by Jingthing

Irrelevant anecdotal stories about a-hole rabbis we can really live without. There are rip-off Jewish car mechanics too ... who knew? Growing up a Jewish friend of my Dad who was also a car mechanic turned out to be running a massive METH lab. Those Jews!

That is the same impression that I was getting from these insignificant examples.

Edited July 28, 201312 yr by Ulysses G.

Sorry, the existence of anti Zionist Jews is irrelevant. My mistake.

If you would like to get together and design a framework for allowable comments that would be great. We can't be having people going off message.

Sorry. My bad.

Sorry, the existence of anti Zionist Jews is irrelevant. My mistake.

If you would like to get together and design a framework for allowable comments that would be great. We can't be having people going off message.

Sorry. My bad.

It's not irrelevant.

But its not news either.

It's also not nearly as big a faction as you seem to be pushing.

Again, I am assuming you mean anti-Zionist = anti existence of Israel.

You seem to be dodging that confirmation for some bizarre reason. Your choice, but it muddies this discussion greatly.

Because of the right wing tendencies of so many Israeli governments, there is a tendency of less enthusiastic support for Israel among global Jews. But that is not remotely the same thing as being against the EXISTENCE of Israel.

Edited July 28, 201312 yr by Jingthing

I suppose anyone that expresses a view that is contrary to certain groups will inevitably be villified and shouted down.

Now that was what the thread was about, and I am grateful for the example that this thread provides.

SC

I suppose anyone that expresses a view that is contrary to certain groups will inevitably be villified and shouted down.

Now that was what the thread was about, and I am grateful for the example that this thread provides.

SC

To assert that there are millions of global Jews who are against the very existence of Israel is not a view, not an opinion. It is a blatant falsehood completely unsupportable by any scientific survey. Just knowing a few cranky Jews who trash talk Israel doesn't cut it.

There is nothing wrong with arguing against the existence of Israel. That is HONEST. That is something we can discuss, share opinions about, even if there is strong disagreement.

If that opposition to Israel's existence is tainted with anti-semitism as it OFTEN is in real life (but not always), and the arguer bleeds into that in their debate, then they should legitimately expect to be called out on that.

Making up blatant lies to support your position and doubling down on the lies when they are shown to be lies, and using Jews as a cover, is NOT honest.

Edited July 28, 201312 yr by Jingthing

I suppose anyone that expresses a view that is contrary to certain groups will inevitably be villified and shouted down.

Now that was what the thread was about, and I am grateful for the example that this thread provides.

SC

To assert that there are millions of global Jews who are against the very existence of Israel is not a view, not an opinion. It is a blatant falsehood completely unsupportable by any scientific survey. Just knowing a few cranky Jews who trash talk Israel doesn't cut it.

There is nothing wrong with arguing against the existence of Israel. That is HONEST. That is something we can discuss, share opinions about, even if there is strong disagreement.

Making up blatant lies to support your position and doubling down on the lies when they are shown to be lies, and using Jews as a cover, is NOT honest.

Thanks. Carry on.

If there was any hope of convincing you, you'd not have posted that. You'd have let it lie.

Sorry, the existence of anti Zionist Jews is irrelevant. My mistake.

Insisting that there are MILLIONS of them with absolutely no evidence is your mistake. There are Jews with a multitude of beliefs, just like any other large group of people.

Thanks. Carry on.

If there was any hope of convincing you, you'd not have posted that. You'd have let it lie.

I think you're being unfair and unrealistic.

If there was some silly poster saying the majority of black Americans were supportive of the recent Zimmerman trial verdict when it is a known FACT that is false (sorry UG) that would not be any kind of legitimate personal view or opinion. It would be a bald faced LIE completely unsupportable with any objective EVIDENCE.

We're not supposed to point out LIES?

Discussions of issues is one thing, pushing lies that are obviously lies, again and again, is another.

This meme that you can't criticize Israel here is totally false. You can't tell LIES without being called on those lies. That's all.

Edited July 28, 201312 yr by Jingthing

Sorry, the existence of anti Zionist Jews is irrelevant. My mistake.

Insisting that there are MILLIONS of them with absolutely no evidence is your mistake. There are Jews with a multitude of beliefs, just like any other large group of people.

I have identified a grouping of Jews who are anti Zionist. This is a large grouping and getting bigger all the time. You are unduly agitated at me pointing that out.

Even JT is putting the figure at 1 million, I say higher........what do you say, none?

Thanks. Carry on.

If there was any hope of convincing you, you'd not have posted that. You'd have let it lie.

I think you're being unfair and unrealistic.

If there was some silly poster saying the majority of black Americans were supportive of the recent Zimmerman trial verdict when it is a known FACT that is false (sorry UG) that would not be any kind of legitimate personal view or opinion. It would be a bald faced LIE completely unsupportable with any objective EVIDENCE.

We're not supposed to point out LIES?

Discussions of issues is one thing, pushing lies that are obviously lies, again and again, is another.

This meme that you can't criticize Israel here is totally false. You can't tell LIES without being called on those lies. That's all.

There's no lie here, even you have estimated the figure at one million.

Or would you lie to retract that?

There's no lie here, even you have estimated the figure at one million.

Or would you lie to retract that?

No.

You're playing games now.

It WAS a lie to push the MILLIONS thing and your rhetoric suggested you were pushing the idea that there is a SIGNIFICANT percentage of global Jews who are against the existence of Israel, and that is demonstrably FALSE.

A million and change out of the total number of Jews in the world is NOT a significant percentage.

If you're backing off from your MILLIONS thing, we are in agreement. Such Jews exist and they always have. Currently, A SMALL MINORITY of global Jews. As far as fast rate of growth I don't know how you could measure that. Show me some polls, OK. Since you repeatedly decline to respond to the confirmation request that we are calling anti-Zionist to mean anti-existence of Israel I think it is now fair to assume that's what you mean unless you EVER bother to deny that. Again, with the games.

If you're only saying Israel has some super serious problems and that its existence remains in danger from forces within and without, I would agree 100 percent. But the vast majority of global Jews will continue to support Israel's existence for as long as Israel does exist.

Edited July 28, 201312 yr by Jingthing

There's no lie here, even you have estimated the figure at one million.

Or would you lie to retract that?

No.

You're playing games now.

It WAS a lie to push the MILLIONS thing and your rhetoric suggested you were pushing the idea that there is a SIGNIFICANT percentage of global Jews

who are against the existence of Israel, and that is demonstrably FALSE.

If you're backing off from your MILLIONS thing, we are in agreement. Such Jews exist and they always have. Currently, A SMALL MINORITY of global Jews. As far as fast rate of growth I don't know how you could measure that. Show me some polls, OK. Since you repeatedly decline to respond to the confirmation request that we are calling anti-Zionist to mean anti-existence of Israel I think it is now fair to assume that's what you mean unless you EVER bother to deny that. Again, with the games.

Nope I'm not backing off from the millions figure, I'm just delighted that you have confirmed it to be at least one million, thanks for that.

Have a wee look at this, it says that the birth rate of Haredi women has plummeted to a mere 6.5 children

http://forward.com/articles/139391/in-israel-haredi-and-muslim-women-are-having-fewer/

Sorry, the existence of anti Zionist Jews is irrelevant. My mistake.

Insisting that there are MILLIONS of them with absolutely no evidence is your mistake. There are Jews with a multitude of beliefs, just like any other large group of people.

I have identified a grouping of Jews who are anti Zionist. This is a large grouping and getting bigger all the time. You are unduly agitated at me pointing that out.

Yes indeed. All of your friends. For what it is worth, all of my friends think that all of your friends are a very limited number.

Nope I'm not backing off from the millions figure, I'm just delighted that you have confirmed it to be at least one million, thanks for that.

Have a wee look at this, it says that the birth rate of Haredi women has plummeted to a mere 6.5 children

http://forward.com/articles/139391/in-israel-haredi-and-muslim-women-are-having-fewer/

Where is the evidence for your millions assertion? How many millions do you think? 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8?

I am not sure why you find delight in my confirmation of something that is OLD NEWS.

A small minority of global Jews being anti-existence of Israel.

That's like being delighted to hear confirmation that sourdough bread is still sold in San Francisco.

Get back to us when a MAJORITY of global Jews are against the very existence of Israel. That indeed would be dark news for Zionists. I bet you that never happens, but, whatever ...

Edited July 28, 201312 yr by Jingthing

Really? YouTube? So what? That does not prove anything at all about "millions of Jews" and you have no way of even knowing who is posting that crap.

My concerns are not misplaced, the situation in Israel is a human rights catastrophe.

Blame that on the people who started the hostilities, who have consistently targeted innocent civilians from the beginning and who have refused to make peace ever since. Blame it on the people who elected a terrorist organization to represent them in peace talks that the terrorist organization - Hamas - refuses to even consider.

Spare me the fashionable "it's both sides fault" propaganda. You can not do your utmost to commit genocide over and over again and then think your enemy is going to treat you like a welcome guest while you refuse to do anything to improve the situation that you have created yourself.

The only thing I know for sure is that the anti Zionists Jews are growing in strength, the demographic of the Jewish community will alter substantially over the next generation as the Zionist birth rate is dropping dramatically while the anti Zionist birth rate is going through the roof.

Excuse me for introducing some actual detail into this debate but the attached pieces make for interesting reading:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/03/13/israels_demographic_destiny_palestine?page=0,2

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israels-coming-civil-war-the-haredi-jews-versus-secular-zionist-militarism/5323834

I think you're being unfair and unrealistic.

If there was some silly poster saying the majority of black Americans were supportive of the recent Zimmerman trial verdict when it is a known FACT that is false (sorry UG) that would not be any kind of legitimate personal view or opinion. It would be a bald faced LIE completely unsupportable with any objective EVIDENCE.

We're not supposed to point out LIES?

Actually, I agree with you that most black Americans disagree with the Zimmerman verdict and think that he is a racist, but that does not mean that they are any more right than the insignificant number of Jews that are against the existence of Israel.

Sorry, the existence of anti Zionist Jews is irrelevant. My mistake.

Insisting that there are MILLIONS of them with absolutely no evidence is your mistake. There are Jews with a multitude of beliefs, just like any other large group of people.

I have identified a grouping of Jews who are anti Zionist. This is a large grouping and getting bigger all the time. You are unduly agitated at me pointing that out.

Yes indeed. All of your friends. For what it is worth, all of my friends think that all of your friends are a very limited number.

JT says it's more than one million. I know theBlether knows a lot of people, but I don't think that those million are all acquiantances of his.

SC

Edited July 28, 201312 yr by StreetCowboy

Poor Helen Thomas.

Well we are estimating it's somewhere between 1 and 1.3 million, which is a lot more than the zero figure that some people believe.

I've already mentioned the growth of this demographic, and they seem to have a disproportionate influence due to the Israeli electoral system.

Is this thread about Helen Thomas or the number of anti-Zionist Jews? Incidentally an anti-Zionist Rabbi was assaulted in Brussels recently, by a Muslim, almost inevitably. I don't suppose it will dawn on him that adopting the stance of your enemy doesn't even delay being attacked yourself.

Well we are estimating it's somewhere between 1 and 1.3 million, which is a lot more than the zero figure that some people believe.

I've already mentioned the growth of this demographic, and they seem to have a disproportionate influence due to the Israeli electoral system.

Is this thread about Helen Thomas or the number of anti-Zionist Jews? Incidentally an anti-Zionist Rabbi was assaulted in Brussels recently, by a Muslim, almost inevitably. I don't suppose it will dawn on him that adopting the stance of your enemy doesn't even delay being attacked yourself.

I feel that this thread could easily have been replaced by the attached link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

right through to the bit where he goes "waah"

JT says it's more than one million.

As Jingthing points out, anti-Zionism has several meanings. If he is claiming that they are against the existence of Israel - and I am not sure that is what he meant - I submit that he can't back it up with evidence either. Personally, I think that it is a load of dog-doo.

Yeah, it's very difficult to precisely measure this sort of thing.

For example in the USA poll showing 94 percent of American Jews feeling it would be tragic for Israel to not exist, we can assume those people are FOR the existence of Israel.

But of that minority that wouldn't find it tragic, obviously there is a range from active hostility to the existence of Israel to simple indifference.

Simple indifference can't really be described as anti-Zionist.

Again, I am sticking with the definition of anti-Zionist as being against the existence of Israel in relation to this thread.

If we can't agree on such definitions, we can't really have any kind of coherent discussion.

Link to that poll please.

Link to that poll please.

You are extremely demanding considering I already did add this link on page one of this thread.

Anyway, here it is again, my friend :

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/US-Jews-strongly-support-Israel-new-poll-shows

BTW, I imagine that you are probably now going to attack the source of the poll. But do you have a poll? Also this other finding of the poll:

74% of respondents had voted for Barack Obama.

actually corresponds closely to knowable reality so I for one think that indicates the poll is SPOT ON.

This is really silly actually. Why wouldn't the vast majority of global Jews support the existence of the only modern Jewish state in history? Of course they would, they do, and will continue to do so.

Edited July 28, 201312 yr by Jingthing

JT says it's more than one million.

As Jingthing points out, anti-Zionism has several meanings. If he is claiming that they are against the existence of Israel - and I am not sure that is what he meant - I submit that he can't back it up with evidence either. Personally, I think that it is a load of dog-doo.

It seems that Blether's argument largely revolves around the Haridim and their dramatic demographics. But, as the Wiki piece makes clear, Haridim come in all sorts of flavour in terms of their attitudes re Zionism, the state of Israel etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredim_and_Zionism

However we seem to be straying a long way from the OP. Personally the saddest thing about her is her 2000 comment about waking up and wondering who to hate today. While possibly spoken in jest is a sad commentary on the remainder of her career.

Edited July 28, 201312 yr by folium

That's true too. Certainly not all Haredim are against the existence of the state of Israel.

However, they do tend to want to avoid military service and that is a big problem.

In my view, they need to contribute to their nation like everyone else.

I had a surprisingly and remarkably pleasant trip to the USA, and the only distressing thing about it was a current affairs show reviewing the then current trial by media of a celebrity (I don't recall nor do I care whom - perhaps Helen Thomas) for admitting that in the past she shared the racist opinions that were the norm at that time. I found that Orwellian in its perniciousness, and a reminder that we need to constantly review our own moral compass lest we are steamrollered by fashion, media and those around us into unconscious prejudice and intolerence.

Of course, most on this thread will say "That only applies to Bluenose Scotch bigots like you, Cowboy; I'm allright", because as I've said often enough , nobody changes their mind on the internet, but perhaps one day people will review their prejudices and tolerances

SC