Bitcoins banned in Thailand

[brit1984]

^ the current value of bitcoins is around ~15 BILLION USD... how can that be justified (never mind the higher price many speculators are predicting / expecting) unless bitcoins become a viable asset to hold savings?... and how can bitcoins become viable to hold savings until the wild price volatility stablizises?...

in my opinion (which is based on simple and clear logic) both sides of the potential equilibrium (with lots of people around the world holding savings in bitcoins and stable price) need the other to exisit, but neither can exist without the other, and neither currently exists, so how are they both going to come to exist?...

and how are the speculators who make up most of the market (and will by definition sell out as soon as they suspect maturity / stable equilibrium is imminent) going to exit between now and then without flooding the market with bitcoins, leading to excess supply and a huge and sudden drop in the price (and therefore even more price volatility)...?

[beb]

If I can buy everything I want in btc then I don't have any need to convert to $. That's the goal.

The mistake a lot of people make is to think that what is interesting or exciting or ground breaking is the increasing value of bitcoin. Nothing could be further from the truth. The increasing value of bitcoin is simply a result of a truly groundbreaking payment technology that can change the world, being introduced to more and more people.

A lot of people want to dump on it because they can't wrap their head around this price run-up and simply don't understand the technology. So if you really want to understand bitcoin and its potential etc., and to intelligently debate the issue, you have to understand the technology. Until you understand the technology, you might as well just be talking about tulips.

[brit1984]

If I can buy everything I want in btc then I don't have any need to convert to $. That's the goal.

yes "IF" all merchants accept bitcoins and IF all your income somehow starts to be earned in bitcoins you wouldn't need other currency but neither of these is going to happen

bitcoins may well become more widespread than now (a low base as currently +99.9% of merchants do not accept bitcoins and +99.999% of employers do not pay in bitcoins) but for them to become mainstream (never mind used for everything as you suggest) there are major obstacles:

- purchasing goods / services with bitcoins means zero buyer protection from fraudulent sellers

- the fact that if you lose the code you lose the bitcoins makes it a scary way to hold funds for most people

- the market / exchanges are unregulated and therefore the price is highly susceptible to manipulation

(for example, the big merchants could play all kinds of games IF they ever got involved by accepting bitcoins)

- there will always be a need to convert out of and into other currencies

- AND MOST IMPORTANT the price is extremely volatile

most of these obstacles can be overcome to some extend but price volatility will not decline until bitcoins become mainstream AND bitcoins will not become mainstream until price volatility stabilizes

even if some bitcoin god casts a magic spell to make the price stabilize before bitcoins become widespread (which i think is impossible) as soon as the price stabilizes, the speculators will start cashing out and there will be more price volatility...

despite all this, the current price of all bitcoins is ~15 BILLION USD and people are expecting (quite rightly given the risk and opportunity cost of holding a non cash yielding asset) multiples on their money of 10x or 100x...

[beb]

If I can buy everything I want in btc then I don't have any need to convert to $. That's the goal.

yes "IF" all merchants accept bitcoins and IF all your income somehow starts to be earned in bitcoins you wouldn't need other currency but neither of these is going to happen

bitcoins may well become more widespread than now (a low base as currently +99.9% of merchants do not accept bitcoins and +99.999% of employers do not pay in bitcoins) but for them to become mainstream (never mind used for everything as you suggest) there are major obstacles:

- purchasing goods / services with bitcoins means zero buyer protection from fraudulent sellers

- the fact that if you lose the code you lose the bitcoins makes it a scary way to hold funds for most people

- the market / exchanges are unregulated and therefore the price is highly susceptible to manipulation

(for example, the big merchants could play all kinds of games IF they ever got involved by accepting bitcoins)

- there will always be a need to convert out of and into other currencies

- AND MOST IMPORTANT the price is extremely volatile

most of these obstacles can be overcome to some extend but price volatility will not decline until bitcoins become mainstream AND bitcoins will not become mainstream until price volatility stabilizes

even if some bitcoin god casts a magic spell to make the price stabilize before bitcoins become widespread (which i think is impossible) as soon as the price stabilizes, the speculators will start cashing out and there will be more price volatility...

despite all this, the current price of all bitcoins is ~15 BILLION USD and people are expecting (quite rightly given the risk and opportunity cost of holding a non cash yielding asset) multiples on their money of 10x or 100x...

I remember in the early 90s I carried a cel phone for my work. When I would visit home and periodically would use my phone, my friends would scoff and even get angry at me. They thought it ridiculous that I couldn't wait to get to a landline. They thought it was a waste of money to carry a phone and pay such high fees (my company paid so I didn't care). They couldn't comprehend a future in which everybody, even most people in the poorest countries, would be carrying a mobile phone. Jeez, don't even mention that their phones would be computers more powerful than the computers that they had in their homes in the 90s.

I don't remember if I ever had an "IF" debate with any of them but I knew the utility and need of this device that they all thought was a big joke.

When you make your first bitcoin transaction, I hope you remember this conversation and I hope you're able to laugh about it just like my friends can now about mobile phones.

[Berkshire]

yes "IF" all merchants accept bitcoins and IF all your income somehow starts to be earned in bitcoins you wouldn't need other currency but neither of these is going to happen

bitcoins may well become more widespread than now (a low base as currently +99.9% of merchants do not accept bitcoins and +99.999% of employers do not pay in bitcoins) but for them to become mainstream (never mind used for everything as you suggest) there are major obstacles:

- purchasing goods / services with bitcoins means zero buyer protection from fraudulent sellers

- the fact that if you lose the code you lose the bitcoins makes it a scary way to hold funds for most people

- the market / exchanges are unregulated and therefore the price is highly susceptible to manipulation

(for example, the big merchants could play all kinds of games IF they ever got involved by accepting bitcoins)

- there will always be a need to convert out of and into other currencies

- AND MOST IMPORTANT the price is extremely volatile

most of these obstacles can be overcome to some extend but price volatility will not decline until bitcoins become mainstream AND bitcoins will not become mainstream until price volatility stabilizes

even if some bitcoin god casts a magic spell to make the price stabilize before bitcoins become widespread (which i think is impossible) as soon as the price stabilizes, the speculators will start cashing out and there will be more price volatility...

despite all this, the current price of all bitcoins is ~15 BILLION USD and people are expecting (quite rightly given the risk and opportunity cost of holding a non cash yielding asset) multiples on their money of 10x or 100x...

I remember in the early 90s I carried a cel phone for my work. When I would visit home and periodically would use my phone, my friends would scoff and even get angry at me. They thought it ridiculous that I couldn't wait to get to a landline. They thought it was a waste of money to carry a phone and pay such high fees (my company paid so I didn't care). They couldn't comprehend a future in which everybody, even most people in the poorest countries, would be carrying a mobile phone. Jeez, don't even mention that their phones would be computers more powerful than the computers that they had in their homes in the 90s.

I don't remember if I ever had an "IF" debate with any of them but I knew the utility and need of this device that they all thought was a big joke.

When you make your first bitcoin transaction, I hope you remember this conversation and I hope you're able to laugh about it just like my friends can now about mobile phones.

I don't doubt your commitment to this idea. But I'm sure you can also concede that there have been grand new technological ideas that simply died merciful deaths. Isn't it possible that another form of digital currency might be developed that would be preferred over bitcoins? Because it's all about universal acceptance, isn't it? I'm not saying bitcoins aren't the real deal, just wondering if there isn't a better way...

[hawker9000]

yes "IF" all merchants accept bitcoins and IF all your income somehow starts to be earned in bitcoins you wouldn't need other currency but neither of these is going to happen

bitcoins may well become more widespread than now (a low base as currently +99.9% of merchants do not accept bitcoins and +99.999% of employers do not pay in bitcoins) but for them to become mainstream (never mind used for everything as you suggest) there are major obstacles:

- purchasing goods / services with bitcoins means zero buyer protection from fraudulent sellers

- the fact that if you lose the code you lose the bitcoins makes it a scary way to hold funds for most people

- the market / exchanges are unregulated and therefore the price is highly susceptible to manipulation

(for example, the big merchants could play all kinds of games IF they ever got involved by accepting bitcoins)

- there will always be a need to convert out of and into other currencies

- AND MOST IMPORTANT the price is extremely volatile

most of these obstacles can be overcome to some extend but price volatility will not decline until bitcoins become mainstream AND bitcoins will not become mainstream until price volatility stabilizes

even if some bitcoin god casts a magic spell to make the price stabilize before bitcoins become widespread (which i think is impossible) as soon as the price stabilizes, the speculators will start cashing out and there will be more price volatility...

despite all this, the current price of all bitcoins is ~15 BILLION USD and people are expecting (quite rightly given the risk and opportunity cost of holding a non cash yielding asset) multiples on their money of 10x or 100x...

I remember in the early 90s I carried a cel phone for my work. When I would visit home and periodically would use my phone, my friends would scoff and even get angry at me. They thought it ridiculous that I couldn't wait to get to a landline. They thought it was a waste of money to carry a phone and pay such high fees (my company paid so I didn't care). They couldn't comprehend a future in which everybody, even most people in the poorest countries, would be carrying a mobile phone. Jeez, don't even mention that their phones would be computers more powerful than the computers that they had in their homes in the 90s.

I don't remember if I ever had an "IF" debate with any of them but I knew the utility and need of this device that they all thought was a big joke.

When you make your first bitcoin transaction, I hope you remember this conversation and I hope you're able to laugh about it just like my friends can now about mobile phones.

I don't doubt your commitment to this idea. But I'm sure you can also concede that there have been grand new technological ideas that simply died merciful deaths. Isn't it possible that another form of digital currency might be developed that would be preferred over bitcoins? Because it's all about universal acceptance, isn't it? I'm not saying bitcoins aren't the real deal, just wondering if there isn't a better way...

Not that I think the discussion really needs anyone chiming in periodically to try & label bitcoin doubters as technology ignorati, but don't you think there might actually be room in the world for more than one digital currency? It does seem to get along well enough with quite a few of the fiat kind... Does a new, or even a "better", digital currency necessarily mean the bitbucket for bitcoin? With so many millions of buyers & sellers with their own needs, wants, and ideas about works best for them, and so many different kinds of transactions taking place among them, what IS "better"? Won't years of use and accumulated experience with bitcoin give it a significant headstart over newcomers, even newcomers with claims to incremental improvements?

Believe it or not, I'm actually a bitcoin agnostic. But I haven't really seen one defining argument against it yet.

[beb]

yes "IF" all merchants accept bitcoins and IF all your income somehow starts to be earned in bitcoins you wouldn't need other currency but neither of these is going to happen

bitcoins may well become more widespread than now (a low base as currently +99.9% of merchants do not accept bitcoins and +99.999% of employers do not pay in bitcoins) but for them to become mainstream (never mind used for everything as you suggest) there are major obstacles:

- purchasing goods / services with bitcoins means zero buyer protection from fraudulent sellers

- the fact that if you lose the code you lose the bitcoins makes it a scary way to hold funds for most people

- the market / exchanges are unregulated and therefore the price is highly susceptible to manipulation

(for example, the big merchants could play all kinds of games IF they ever got involved by accepting bitcoins)

- there will always be a need to convert out of and into other currencies

- AND MOST IMPORTANT the price is extremely volatile

most of these obstacles can be overcome to some extend but price volatility will not decline until bitcoins become mainstream AND bitcoins will not become mainstream until price volatility stabilizes

even if some bitcoin god casts a magic spell to make the price stabilize before bitcoins become widespread (which i think is impossible) as soon as the price stabilizes, the speculators will start cashing out and there will be more price volatility...

despite all this, the current price of all bitcoins is ~15 BILLION USD and people are expecting (quite rightly given the risk and opportunity cost of holding a non cash yielding asset) multiples on their money of 10x or 100x...

I remember in the early 90s I carried a cel phone for my work. When I would visit home and periodically would use my phone, my friends would scoff and even get angry at me. They thought it ridiculous that I couldn't wait to get to a landline. They thought it was a waste of money to carry a phone and pay such high fees (my company paid so I didn't care). They couldn't comprehend a future in which everybody, even most people in the poorest countries, would be carrying a mobile phone. Jeez, don't even mention that their phones would be computers more powerful than the computers that they had in their homes in the 90s.

I don't remember if I ever had an "IF" debate with any of them but I knew the utility and need of this device that they all thought was a big joke.

When you make your first bitcoin transaction, I hope you remember this conversation and I hope you're able to laugh about it just like my friends can now about mobile phones.

I don't doubt your commitment to this idea. But I'm sure you can also concede that there have been grand new technological ideas that simply died merciful deaths. Isn't it possible that another form of digital currency might be developed that would be preferred over bitcoins? Because it's all about universal acceptance, isn't it? I'm not saying bitcoins aren't the real deal, just wondering if there isn't a better way...

Of course there is no guarantee on this or anything. The people that are buying in now will or will not see a return based on how well the technology is accepted. It's the same as anything that's starting out. When Steve jobs was working in his garage, there was every chance that somebody else was going to come along with a much better computer. People decided to put money into his company because they believed in the concept.

And if you learn of another crypto-currency that you think is superior and you want to get into, then you should make that choice. Or stick with whatever is of interest to you. I hear gold is way down so maybe that's a good choice.

[farang000999]

If I can buy everything I want in btc then I don't have any need to convert to $. That's the goal.

yes "IF" all merchants accept bitcoins and IF all your income somehow starts to be earned in bitcoins you wouldn't need other currency but neither of these is going to happen

bitcoins may well become more widespread than now (a low base as currently +99.9% of merchants do not accept bitcoins and +99.999% of employers do not pay in bitcoins) but for them to become mainstream (never mind used for everything as you suggest) there are major obstacles:

- purchasing goods / services with bitcoins means zero buyer protection from fraudulent sellers

- the fact that if you lose the code you lose the bitcoins makes it a scary way to hold funds for most people

- the market / exchanges are unregulated and therefore the price is highly susceptible to manipulation

(for example, the big merchants could play all kinds of games IF they ever got involved by accepting bitcoins)

- there will always be a need to convert out of and into other currencies

- AND MOST IMPORTANT the price is extremely volatile

most of these obstacles can be overcome to some extend but price volatility will not decline until bitcoins become mainstream AND bitcoins will not become mainstream until price volatility stabilizes

even if some bitcoin god casts a magic spell to make the price stabilize before bitcoins become widespread (which i think is impossible) as soon as the price stabilizes, the speculators will start cashing out and there will be more price volatility...

despite all this, the current price of all bitcoins is ~15 BILLION USD and people are expecting (quite rightly given the risk and opportunity cost of holding a non cash yielding asset) multiples on their money of 10x or 100x...

I remember in the early 90s I carried a cel phone for my work. When I would visit home and periodically would use my phone, my friends would scoff and even get angry at me. They thought it ridiculous that I couldn't wait to get to a landline. They thought it was a waste of money to carry a phone and pay such high fees (my company paid so I didn't care). They couldn't comprehend a future in which everybody, even most people in the poorest countries, would be carrying a mobile phone. Jeez, don't even mention that their phones would be computers more powerful than the computers that they had in their homes in the 90s.

I don't remember if I ever had an "IF" debate with any of them but I knew the utility and need of this device that they all thought was a big joke.

When you make your first bitcoin transaction, I hope you remember this conversation and I hope you're able to laugh about it just like my friends can now about mobile phones.

What makes using bitcoin to make transactions more superior than using my debit card?

[ukrules]

What makes using bitcoin to make transactions more superior than using my debit card?

From the merchants point of view the fees are much lower and the transaction can't be reversed in any way.

Also once you have the digital currency you have it, you don't need to wait for your bank to 'process it' for you, it's already processed when you receive it.

[farang000999]

hardly seems to fit the "cellphone" analogy.

[beb]

hardly seems to fit the "cellphone" analogy.

Meh, I'm happy to discuss the subject with somebody who has an actual interest in it. To trade meaningless barbs is of no interest to me.

[FritsSikkink]

Bitcoin is important because it's independent of control from banks, governments and financial institutions.

I purchased some Bitcoins a couple of months ago from a trader in Thailand and paid for them through Kasikorn. I can see how that may now technically be illegal. However If I make a payment to another expat who lives in Thailand via Bitcoin then I doubt that would be illegal unless someone attempts to directly convert Bitcoin to Baht or Baht to Bitcoin.

Most of the negative opinions about Bitcoin are made by people who have never used Bitcoin, and the suggestion that Bitcoin is only used by hackers, drug dealers and criminals is untrue. Bitcoin can be annonymous, but for most people it does not need to be anonymous it just needs to be safe and secure. Some people think it's less real than dollars because it only exists in a digital form.. if you think 99% of dollars exist in anything other then digital form then you need to wake up!

What makes you think it is save and secure. Where do you go if there is a problem

[kawaiimomo]

Where do you go if you pau for some goods via a bank transfer and the seller don't send you anything? What happens 99% of the time when you sell something to a buyer paying with PayPal and he opens a dispute saying he didn't receive the goods? Escrow systems are the best, but every single method require of a certain trust. Escrow combined with reputation systems works probably the best.

[beb]

Where do you go if you pau for some goods via a bank transfer and the seller don't send you anything? What happens 99% of the time when you sell something to a buyer paying with PayPal and he opens a dispute saying he didn't receive the goods? Escrow systems are the best, but every single method require of a certain trust. Escrow combined with reputation systems works probably the best.

http://elidourado.com/blog/bitcoin-arbitration/

[churchill]

Bloomberg News ‏@BloombergNews48m

BREAKING: China bans financial institutions from Bitcoin transactions | http://bloomberg.com

[churchill]

Prices dropping at this time ...

http://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/btcchina/btccny

[churchill]

Silver Watchdog ‏@Silver_Watchdog52m

Translated: People's Bank of China and other five ministries issued "on guard against the risk of Bitcoin notice" http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3DPBOC%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DYw%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Dfflb&rurl=translate.google.ca&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.pbc.gov.cn/publish/goutongjiaoliu/524/2013/20131205153156832222251/20131205153156832222251_.html&usg=ALkJrhjfQLuQ6eSVqZqky7R1OOfMdy54Ng …

[Heng]

I'm not a huge backer of Bitcoins or anything, but just to keep it real... it's a very pro business concept. I have a number of merchant accounts, accounts at about a dozen different banks in 4-5 countries, every single Thai bank as well pretty much. It's easy to think, okay... why would anyone want to pay me in Bitcoins when they have so many other traditional options? If you can't pay me with a SWIFT transfer, ACH transfer, or major credit or debit card... are you really worth doing business with? (the answer is of course YES, as long as you can pay me.)

The thing is with a decentralized digital currency (and it doesn't have to be Bitcoins) anyone with access to a computer becomes a potential merchant, provider of services, and of course customer. No age, credit, or geographical requirements other than being able to access the internet. It's easy to focus on all the negatives that can come out of that type of situation but I think there's a lot of positive potential out there as well. For example a true entrepreneur or programmer could go into business or engage in commerce (international business even) at age 15 before being able to open a Paypal account, get a bank account, or any number of other barriers. If I were part of the established banking clans, I certainly wouldn't be trying to stamp out BTC... I'd be doing whatever I could to absorb it into the machine, buying up or buying out every single exchange out there.

[brit1984]

Where do you go if you pau for some goods via a bank transfer and the seller don't send you anything? What happens 99% of the time when you sell something to a buyer paying with PayPal and he opens a dispute saying he didn't receive the goods? Escrow systems are the best, but every single method require of a certain trust. Escrow combined with reputation systems works probably the best.

http://elidourado.com/blog/bitcoin-arbitration/

interesting article thanks - i recommend for others to read too

for anyone who can't be bothered basically it says bitcoin transactions are not non-reversible as often claimed

therefore people can buy goods / services with bitcoins and still have some protection against fraud by the seller

[hawker9000]

Read the article again. Yes, "support" for multiparty signatures via the protocol is there. That doesn't mean it necessarily exists for a transaction being contemplated today. In fact, it's stated at the very end that it's an innovation " buried deep in the protocol" and "yet to be widely used". Like bitcoin itself, it's something users must "adopt". Unlike bitcoin, many apparently haven't yet.

[pancakeman]

Read the article again. Yes, "support" for multiparty signatures via the protocol is there. That doesn't mean it necessarily exists for a transaction being contemplated today. In fact, it's stated at the very end that it's an innovation " buried deep in the protocol" and "yet to be widely used". Like bitcoin itself, it's something users must "adopt". Unlike bitcoin, many apparently haven't yet.

The blockchain.info web wallet allows for multiparty escrow transactions: https://blockchain.info/wallet/escrow

[Chippen Dong]

China’s biggest search engine, stopped accepting Bitcoins after the nation’s central bank barred financial institutions from handling transactions, triggering a drop in the virtual currency.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-07/baidu-stops-accepting-bitcoins-after-china-ban.html

someone with inside info knew in advance that something was afoot hence the recent bubble and now big drop.

will take some time to get past this hit. wonder who ordered it???

[hawker9000]

Read the article again. Yes, "support" for multiparty signatures via the protocol is there. That doesn't mean it necessarily exists for a transaction being contemplated today. In fact, it's stated at the very end that it's an innovation " buried deep in the protocol" and "yet to be widely used". Like bitcoin itself, it's something users must "adopt". Unlike bitcoin, many apparently haven't yet.

The blockchain.info web wallet allows for multiparty escrow transactions: https://blockchain.info/wallet/escrow

You're in transmit-only mode. Read what I said.

[MalibuJay]

The China ruling actually appears to be positive for Bitcoin from what I'm reading. They've essentially classified it as a commodity instead of a currency, which means that Bitcoin exchanges are free to trade Yuan for Bitcoin as they wish without the heavy handed government regulations and confiscations that US Bitcoin exchanges face. BTC exchanges in China are not "financial institutions", they're selling a commodity like rice, so they are free to proceed. Merchants and customers are also free to exchange using bitcoin. Banks and financial institutions cannot offer Bitcoin mutual funds or otherwise offer it to savers and investors, but it's fine for commerce.

That seems positive to me. I don't agree that Bitcoin cannot advance until it's a proper vehicle for savers. Savers will be the last group to adopt it. As someone said, "If my grandparents ask me how to conserve their wealth, I tell them to buy gold bullion. If they ask me how to transport it over distance, I tell them to send Bitcoin." Bitcoin is two things: the payment or transfer network, like PayPal, but also the currency unit (BTC) used on the network. It's as if PayPal had it's own currency unit. It's the utility of the network that should drive the growth, and since BTC is the only currency that can be used on the network and BTC are scare (fixed number of units), they should appreciate in value over time if the network's utility is recognized and adopted. With the current volatility in the price, it's true that current holders figure to be some combination of speculators and nerds (early technology adopters). But if merchants are agnostic and see bitcoin as an opportunity to pay lower fees on transactions, their adoption of the PayPal or network aspect of the technology could grow without savers. Perhaps someday an online merchant, when you place an order, can quickly direct you to a BTC exchange as they now direct you to PayPal, where you can instantly buy BTC for your currency and transfer them to the merchant, who can then instantly sell them and convert to his own currency. The customer woudn't need to BTC. The exchange would have to become a market maker, but isn't that hold gold/silver dealers do it, despite major swings in the metals prices?

As for whether a competitor could replace Bitcoin, they can and do copy the open source code and roll out new cryptocurrencies, but they can't easily replicate the infrastructure that's grown up around Bitcoin. How many miners are there in the other coins and who has even heard of those coins? Bitcoin has a nice head start and it should take years to catch up. What could they offer to offset Bitcoin's advantage, and why couldn't Bitcoin copy that anyway?

Whether it can be eplaced remains to be seen, but it should have utility and growth in the meantime.

I've been sitting on the sidelines watching Bitcoin until recently, but most of the negative comments in this thread have been rebutted in articles I've come across in just the last 72 hours. That doesn't mean that Bitcoin will ultimately survive, but it only takes a few days of research to see that the proponents of Bitcoin have given a lot more though to its problems than the naysayers. A lot of folks are just averse to change. It someone wishes that everyone would just stop changing things and leave them the way there are, there's little you can say to change those feelings.

[Khun Jean]

I like that it has merchant protection built in. Never wanted to open a e-commerce site because of the many frauds.

The bitcoin transaction can not be cancelled.

If the buyer wants protection, buy insurance. That will probably be a new market created by bitcoin.

As a merchant i would need to gain trust, like any brick and mortar store before.

Furthermore i see it as a currency to move in and out only for the transaction.

Saving money in any currency is always very risky. All fiat money in the world inflates and depreciates. Holding cash is only interesting when there is deflation.

I like commodities for saving and preserving value.

[Chippen Dong]

The China ruling actually appears to be positive for Bitcoin from what I'm reading. They've essentially classified it as a commodity instead of a currency, which means that Bitcoin exchanges are free to trade Yuan for Bitcoin as they wish without the heavy handed government regulations and confiscations that US Bitcoin exchanges face. BTC exchanges in China are not "financial institutions", they're selling a commodity like rice, so they are free to proceed. Merchants and customers are also free to exchange using bitcoin. Banks and financial institutions cannot offer Bitcoin mutual funds or otherwise offer it to savers and investors, but it's fine for commerce.

That seems positive to me. I don't agree that Bitcoin cannot advance until it's a proper vehicle for savers. Savers will be the last group to adopt it. As someone said, "If my grandparents ask me how to conserve their wealth, I tell them to buy gold bullion. If they ask me how to transport it over distance, I tell them to send Bitcoin." Bitcoin is two things: the payment or transfer network, like PayPal, but also the currency unit (BTC) used on the network. It's as if PayPal had it's own currency unit. It's the utility of the network that should drive the growth, and since BTC is the only currency that can be used on the network and BTC are scare (fixed number of units), they should appreciate in value over time if the network's utility is recognized and adopted. With the current volatility in the price, it's true that current holders figure to be some combination of speculators and nerds (early technology adopters). But if merchants are agnostic and see bitcoin as an opportunity to pay lower fees on transactions, their adoption of the PayPal or network aspect of the technology could grow without savers. Perhaps someday an online merchant, when you place an order, can quickly direct you to a BTC exchange as they now direct you to PayPal, where you can instantly buy BTC for your currency and transfer them to the merchant, who can then instantly sell them and convert to his own currency. The customer woudn't need to BTC. The exchange would have to become a market maker, but isn't that hold gold/silver dealers do it, despite major swings in the metals prices?

As for whether a competitor could replace Bitcoin, they can and do copy the open source code and roll out new cryptocurrencies, but they can't easily replicate the infrastructure that's grown up around Bitcoin. How many miners are there in the other coins and who has even heard of those coins? Bitcoin has a nice head start and it should take years to catch up. What could they offer to offset Bitcoin's advantage, and why couldn't Bitcoin copy that anyway?

Whether it can be eplaced remains to be seen, but it should have utility and growth in the meantime.

I've been sitting on the sidelines watching Bitcoin until recently, but most of the negative comments in this thread have been rebutted in articles I've come across in just the last 72 hours. That doesn't mean that Bitcoin will ultimately survive, but it only takes a few days of research to see that the proponents of Bitcoin have given a lot more though to its problems than the naysayers. A lot of folks are just averse to change. It someone wishes that everyone would just stop changing things and leave them the way there are, there's little you can say to change those feelings.

thank for this deeper look

[Darvil]

Its been awhile since I've posted about bitcoin. I was looking at old posts from a couple years ago when I got it into with a couple people on here (very politely though). Man what a journey has it been for bitcoin. Even I didn't dare imagine the kind of success it has currently (and will in the future). The alt coins are doing well as well. I told some of my friends to get in on some of them. With the last crazy few weeks, they're happy with the result. Another friend is about to hit it very big if the trend continues.

Looks like JP morgan is getting in the game? http://letstalkbitcoin.com/jpmorgan-chase-building-bitcoin-killer/#.UqaB2WQW1fV definitely interesting.

I see alot of people using to transfer money globally as well. Living in bangkok now, I see a real hassle and also irritation with limits and poor rates of services like WU. Thats one type of business I hope crypto currency will destroy in the near future.

I didn't realize how big localbitcoins.com is now. I will have to check it out here now that I'm in the US for christmas.

The one big thing I think that most people still don't get is the fact that people don't view crypto as a new protocol.. its a brand new idea like p2p file transfer for example or even something like http which the web is based on. It will get better and will be improved upon. Bitcoin is just the first incarnation like when the first bittorrent client was released. Now that silicon valley is investing big into bitcoins who knows what other areas of "big brothers"' the new crypto forms will disrupt. And now with big big dogs potentially joining in the fray, this could very well be some incredible battles happening in the new future. Who will be the google of crypto in the future?

[oakweb]

It is amazing, I'm still hashing around 2.5 TH/s, with 28TH/s coming from various companies. Up and Down, it is here to stay. You can't kill it, at least not easily, and it seems Paypal even is eyeing it for integration somehow. I imagine they don't like much paying bank fee's either.

[Darvil]

The genie is out of the bottle.. and as coins become more legitimized, there will be underground coins

Anyway, I think Heng's post is right about how these big companies should incorporate crypto. For example, the internet has devoured many companies who are too slow to adapt.. look at netflix and how it has killed off blockbuster.. I guess some of these big boys feeling some heat and while some will adapt.. you can expect some large digital carcasses in the near future.

[beb]

For those who are into bitcoin or want to learn more, this is a great primer on it http://t.co/zGjwyUl3WD It's very long and a lot of annoying sounds of dinner in the background but this guy does a great job.

For those who consider bitcoin the second coming of tulips, don't bother.