Bitcoins banned in Thailand

[nahkit]

Bitcoin is important because it's independent of control from banks, governments and financial institutions.

I purchased some Bitcoins a couple of months ago from a trader in Thailand and paid for them through Kasikorn. I can see how that may now technically be illegal. However If I make a payment to another expat who lives in Thailand via Bitcoin then I doubt that would be illegal unless someone attempts to directly convert Bitcoin to Baht or Baht to Bitcoin.

Most of the negative opinions about Bitcoin are made by people who have never used Bitcoin, and the suggestion that Bitcoin is only used by hackers, drug dealers and criminals is untrue. Bitcoin can be annonymous, but for most people it does not need to be anonymous it just needs to be safe and secure. Some people think it's less real than dollars because it only exists in a digital form.. if you think 99% of dollars exist in anything other then digital form then you need to wake up!

What did you use to purchase your Bitcoins? Surely not that dodgy currency stuff that banks use?

[Psych01]

Here is a link to the actual Bitcoin Web page: http://bitcoin.org/en/. Have a read and as you go through there is a link in it that goes into detail how it works within the introduction, "Going down the rabbit hole" there is an actual 9 page PDF about it all.

The problem with this type of idea, to becoming a main currency, is that the authorities do not get their extortionate fees paid for the same service, that is if they understand it. It is very similar to the Torrent idea and The Pirate Bay site. It is for the masses not the 1%ers you see in the world, or the same idea as an open source operating system for a PC/notebook etc..

[beb]

Here is a link to the actual Bitcoin Web page: http://bitcoin.org/en/. Have a read and as you go through there is a link in it that goes into detail how it works within the introduction, "Going down the rabbit hole" there is an actual 9 page PDF about it all.

The problem with this type of idea, to becoming a main currency, is that the authorities do not get their extortionate fees paid for the same service, that is if they understand it. It is very similar to the Torrent idea and The Pirate Bay site. It is for the masses not the 1%ers you see in the world, or the same idea as an open source operating system for a PC/notebook etc..

A simple example of the value of bitcoin is in international money transfers. Now poor workers typically have to pay Western Union ridiculous fees to send money back to their home country. With BTC they can do it at a fraction of the cost. This is something that can be done now. BTC has a long way to go as far as having a decent user interface and decent saturation in the markets but it will happen eventually.

Forget everything else, the technology is going to change the world.

[AngelsLariat]

Bitcoin is important because it's independent of control from banks, governments and financial institutions.

You state that as though those are self evident truths. Of what advantage is it to consumers that they are independent of banks, governments and financial institutions?

Well I guess it depends on how much you trust big banks and governments. Personally I think it's a big deal because I have very little trust in banks and government, you may feel different and you are of course entitled to your opinion.. as such you are highly unlikely to be a early adopter of Bitcoin.

It's not so much that I have undying trust in big banks and governments, it's more that I don't think that less regulation in the financial system is a step in the right direction.

[silopsist]

Reading some of these comments makes it very clear that the is a very long road to be traveled before there is enough people who see through the lies spread by the main stream media on behalf of the politicians and bankers of this world to actually start changing things on any meaningful level.

Luckily for those of us that do understand how we are continually being manipulated by governements, banks and corporations we now have a way to do something about it that may actually hit them where it hurts.

Buying bitcoin and using it will make it less volitile, at the moment it is at the mercy of speculators, but as adoption becomes more mainstream governments will start to take notice and no doubt try to ban or certainly regulate it.

For those of you that think it will be banned, it can't. You can't stop people using it, there's no way to enforce it, they will have to find a way to tax and regulate it.

If you could wind back the clock 20-30 years and buy stock in Apple or Microsoft, or wind it back just 10 years and buy stock in facebook would you?

Well i'm not missing out on this one,

Whether it's bitcoin or some other crypto currency who knows, but i'd bet the family silver some form of digital cryptocurrency will in the not too distant future be as familiar to us all as email and facebook.

First we had the computerisation revolution, then the internet revolution, well this is the 3rd major revolution of the computer age...................

watch this space,

Bitcoin is here to stay!

[MaxwellsDemon]

I personally have quite a few bitcoins, and now mostly understand how they work, and how they will work in the future, and the safeguards it has in place and its vulnerabilities, etc. And trust me, unless you're a genius, no one can claim to understand bitcoins in a day, and certainly not without actually using them in one way or another.

That said, this is my stance:

I do not recommend anyone to invest in bitcoin to profit. Like many say, yes, it can increase ten-fold, but can also drop ten-fold.

I recommend investing out of interest in how the system works, and to help understand it.

The biggest traffickers of bitcoin will do whatever it takes to give bitcoin as much of an instrinsic value (similar to how a dollar bill has almost an intrinsic value), and those kinds of people are in their own right, freaking. geniuses. and the failsafes and systems in place in bitcoin should be an indicator of how airtight the system is. And that, to me, is cynically entertaining.

As is, the fact that financial institutions and governments and all sorts of organizations make claims/arguments against bitcoin without understanding it. Hilarity ensues. This thread, case in point.

Bitcoins, as a decentralized currency, lives on popular interest. Without interest, no one accepts it, without acceptance, they are worth nothing.

But until it is understood by the masses, it's always going to have an appeal of mystery, of new technology, of the unknown, and that's what's keeping it alive, and, even, that's what causes it's wild fluctuation.

I love bitcoin. Because it is a clusterxxxx.

BTC forever.

Edited July 30, 2013 by metisdead
Profanity

[wwex]

Bitcoin is important because it's independent of control from banks, governments and financial institutions.

You state that as though those are self evident truths. Of what advantage is it to consumers that they are independent of banks, governments and financial institutions?

the advantage is you dont have to pay bank fees, paypal fees, credit card fees etc, its basically like the difference between snail mail and email, using email you dont have to go to the post office and buy stamps, using btc you dont have to go to a bank and pay there fees, and like email, its virtually instant, but of course the banks are going to have to adopt in a big way so they will be trying to slow progress as much as possible

[wwex]

The source of this information, ie of the news article in the first post of this topic, is, as the article says in the first sentence, a statement on the website of Bitcoin. If you click on the link at the end of that first post you will see the article in The Telegraph and there is a link to the mentioned statement. For easy reference, I copy that sentence from the article with the link here:

In a statement on its website, Bitcoin said it had given a presentation to the Bank of Thailand about how the currency works in a bid to operate in the country.

anybody can buy a website url with the name bitcoin or anything else in it, it doesnt mean that they represent anyone or anything, and in this case it represents an individual that wants to set up an exchange in Thailand, it in no way represents the bitcoin community or any of its members views Edited July 30, 2013 by wwex

[wwex]

Bitcoin uses a BIP-16 Pay-To-Script-Hash scripts. Even a 5th-grader can hack that!!!! And their ECDSA is extremely primitive!!! I recommend to knock on the door twice, pause, then make a bird sound. followed by a conversation in Cherokee Indian. now that will work.

so far no one has hacked it and there are millions in it for anyone who does, and the same hacking will also allow them access to all the worlds banking, so you might feel better hiding your money under your bed

[how241]

Quite right, a ridiculous stupid concept which is a hackers paradise.

+1

[hawker9000]

Bitcoins banned? If the headline is true, absolute silliness.

[Satcommlee]

Cost me half a bitcoin in bungs this morning when I got caught speeding on the Chonburi Expressway..

Anyway, if you believe they can ban bitcoins then you believe there is gold in Fort Knox!!

[Puccini]

A simple example of the value of bitcoin is in international money transfers.  Now poor workers typically have to pay Western Union ridiculous fees to send money back to their home country.  With BTC they can do it at a fraction of the cost.  This is something that can be done now.  BTC has a long way to go as far as having a decent user interface and decent saturation in the markets but it will happen eventually.  

 

Forget everything else, the technology is going to change the world.

I am genuinely interested in how this works and would like to make a cost comparison of the various ways available to a Thai worker to send money back to his home country and compare the exchange rates and fees. Let's assume I am a Thai worker in London, UK and want to send GBP 600.00 to my Krungsri bank account in Bangkok, Thailand.

Option 1: Western Union

1.1. What is the fee charged by Western Union in the UK?

1.2. What is the fee charged by Western Union in Thailand?

1.3. What is the exchange rate for GBP used by Western Union in Thailand today?

1.4. What is the fee charged by Western Union in Thailand?

1.5. What is the net amount paid by Western Union in Thailand into my Krungsri Bank account?

Option 2: Bitcoins

2.1. Where and how do I buy Bitcoins (BTC) in the UK?

2.2. What is the exchange rate for BTC used by the Bitcoin trader in the UK?

2.3. What is the fee charged by the Bitcoin trader in the UK?

2.4. Where and how do I sell BTC in Thailand?

2.5. What is the exchange rate used by the Bitcoin trader in Thailand today?

2.6. What is the fee charged by the Bitcoin trader in Thailand?

2.7. What is the net amount paid by the Bitcoin trader in Thailand into my Krungsri Bank account?

Option 3: SWIFT transfer from my NatWest bank account in London

3.1. What is the fee charged by NatWest?

3.2. What is the exchange rate for GBP used by Krungsri Bank today?

3.3. What is the fee charged by Krungsri Bank?

3.4. What is the net amount credited by Krungsri Bank to my account?

I have numbered all questions so that you may simply use the same numbers and put the corresponding answer next to it.

[Briggsy]

Biitcoin will only function as long as there is no crisis of confidence. The moment there is, the bubble may burst and your bitcoin may well be worth only 2% of what it was nominally worth 48 hours previous or it may be absolutely worthless. Sooner or later this will happen.

Putting this huge risk aside, in the meantime I am yet to be persuaded that it is a cheaper way of conducting cross-border transactions than using traditional major currencies. If someone can show me a worked example as the previous poster requested I will look forward to that and be happy to examine it.

There seems to be a lot of hype (confound those evil governments, etc.) regarding this trend but not too much in the way of facts.

[NCC1701A]

Guns are banned in Thailand and no one has them, right?

the list goes on and on

[NCC1701A]

A Bitcoin will be worth $500 USD after the next Cyprus.

[Briggsy]

A Bitcoin will be worth $500 USD after the next Cyprus.

As I said, "a lot of hype but not too much in the way of facts".

[beb]

A simple example of the value of bitcoin is in international money transfers. Now poor workers typically have to pay Western Union ridiculous fees to send money back to their home country. With BTC they can do it at a fraction of the cost. This is something that can be done now. BTC has a long way to go as far as having a decent user interface and decent saturation in the markets but it will happen eventually.

Forget everything else, the technology is going to change the world.

I am genuinely interested in how this works and would like to make a cost comparison of the various ways available to a Thai worker to send money back to his home country and compare the exchange rates and fees. Let's assume I am a Thai worker in London, UK and want to send GBP 600.00 to my Krungsri bank account in Bangkok, Thailand.

Option 1: Western Union

1.1. What is the fee charged by Western Union in the UK?

1.2. What is the fee charged by Western Union in Thailand?

1.3. What is the exchange rate for GBP used by Western Union in Thailand today?

1.4. What is the fee charged by Western Union in Thailand?

1.5. What is the net amount paid by Western Union in Thailand into my Krungsri Bank account?

Option 2: Bitcoins

2.1. Where and how do I buy Bitcoins (BTC) in the UK?

2.2. What is the exchange rate for BTC used by the Bitcoin trader in the UK?

2.3. What is the fee charged by the Bitcoin trader in the UK?

2.4. Where and how do I sell BTC in Thailand?

2.5. What is the exchange rate used by the Bitcoin trader in Thailand today?

2.6. What is the fee charged by the Bitcoin trader in Thailand?

2.7. What is the net amount paid by the Bitcoin trader in Thailand into my Krungsri Bank account?

Option 3: SWIFT transfer from my NatWest bank account in London

3.1. What is the fee charged by NatWest?

3.2. What is the exchange rate for GBP used by Krungsri Bank today?

3.3. What is the fee charged by Krungsri Bank?

3.4. What is the net amount credited by Krungsri Bank to my account?

I have numbered all questions so that you may simply use the same numbers and put the corresponding answer next to it.

I appreciate your search for answers but all of them are available to you just as easily as to me or anybody else. You're looking for a lot of data.

[bangkokstick]

Ridiculous, certainly as successful to ban this as porn, drug and prostitution !

[beb]

Biitcoin will only function as long as there is no crisis of confidence. The moment there is, the bubble may burst and your bitcoin may well be worth only 2% of what it was nominally worth 48 hours previous or it may be absolutely worthless. Sooner or later this will happen.

Putting this huge risk aside, in the meantime I am yet to be persuaded that it is a cheaper way of conducting cross-border transactions than using traditional major currencies. If someone can show me a worked example as the previous poster requested I will look forward to that and be happy to examine it.

There seems to be a lot of hype (confound those evil governments, etc.) regarding this trend but not too much in the way of facts.

Frankly you're not really going to be the typical user of BTC or whatever crypto currency ends up on top. I'm not really that motivated to convince people to get into it. From my experience, people that really get to understand it are the ones that are curious and do their own investigating. That's what pulled me in, my own curiosity after having a friend give me the bare bones. As I've said before, what is exciting about btc is the technology and how that will change things in the future. And as I've said also, the current UI is terrible. There is a ways to go before BTC is really viable for the general public and without making any assumptions, you probably fit into that category. But recent developments indicate that a lot of those issues are being addressed now by new companies and VCs as it migrates from the nerd community into more of the mainstream.

In a few years, kids of today will be using it as casually as we use atm and credit cards.

Of course nobody knows the future so nobody really KNOWS anything but there is a steep learning curve if you're really curious and it takes an effort.

Edited July 30, 2013 by beb

[NCC1701A]

A Bitcoin will be worth $500 USD after the next Cyprus.

As I said, "a lot of hype but not too much in the way of facts".

facts? what about history? you don't know about the run up in bitcoin during Cyprus? Argentina? People are looking for a way out. you think everything is fixed now with the world economies? Everyone who jumped in one year to 6 months ago is incredibly happy. the college students who bought bitcoin in the beginning are all millionaires now. they are retired. they live next to Marc Faber.

[NCC1701A]

so does this mean you can't have any bitcoin apps on your smart phone in Thailand?

[4evermaat]

I've had several debates with rabid Bitcoin fanatic friends and for me it always comes down to the viability of an alternative form of currency. The biggest problem you have is that once it grows to a certain size governments are going to start looking at it seriously.

There's a reason why governments like to track the flow of currency in an economy. Taxation, money laundering (specifically as it relates to illegal activities), and forecasting economic trends.

Nearly every country has restrictions on how much money you can physically bring into or out of their country. Similarly, they have computerized methods for flagging transactions above a certain level. They obviously take this money tracking stuff seriously. To think they would simply allow another form of moving money that they can't track or control is wishful thinking.

You can argue until you're blue in the face about it being better or more secure or people's rights to privacy or whatever but when do governments listen to logic when large corporate interests or their own interests fall into conflict with something?

I've never argued that it's a bad idea. It's simply that the chances of any major government allowing citizens to freely transfer funds without any control over that process is not very realistic.

This is journalism at it's worst;

A) You can't have a meeting with Bitcoin it's a peer to peer network.
A meeting took place with Bitcoin.co.uk a small bitcoin exchange with a million Baht capital (20k pounds and I believe the minimum amount you can start a Thai company with)
3) The source of this information is mad as a brush and suggests foreigners boycott purchasing goods from Thailand.
4) Title should read; Butthurt Thai Bitcoin Exchange makes wild claims after getting refused bank account.

If you're going to make a story relating too a law change quote a government source not someone that's upset he's been refused banking!!!

Here is a link to the actual Bitcoin Web page: http://bitcoin.org/en/. Have a read and as you go through there is a link in it that goes into detail how it works within the introduction, "Going down the rabbit hole" there is an actual 9 page PDF about it all.

The problem with this type of idea, to becoming a main currency, is that the authorities do not get their extortionate fees paid for the same service, that is if they understand it. It is very similar to the Torrent idea and The Pirate Bay site. It is for the masses not the 1%ers you see in the world, or the same idea as an open source operating system for a PC/notebook etc..

A simple example of the value of bitcoin is in international money transfers. Now poor workers typically have to pay Western Union ridiculous fees to send money back to their home country. With BTC they can do it at a fraction of the cost. This is something that can be done now. BTC has a long way to go as far as having a decent user interface and decent saturation in the markets but it will happen eventually.

Forget everything else, the technology is going to change the world.

The gov't is just a collective representation of the masses of people that they govern. Watch Argentina especially for a real life example of how BTC can be used in everyday life as a viable medium of exchange for goods and services. The avg Argentinian will NEVER place any significant amount of funds in an Argentinian bank due to widespread mistrust in the banking system. Arg gov't has placed numerous restrictions on their own currency and even banned citizens from legally holding USD; BTC has gained a large following there. There is no official ban from Argentinan gov't yet on BTC, and with the current distrust it is unlikely that the people would listen to the gov't anyway when it comes to any banking regulation that imposes any further restrictions.

Urugray is another example, but Uruguay has not banned bitcoins and their gov't is very liberal about personal freedoms and property, so it is no surprise that BTC-based companies are using Uruguay as a gateway to South American markets.

I just got done reading a related article on ForexMagnates.com . It appears that after Thai finance FX officials got an understanding of how BTC works, they moved quickly to label it as illegal. It seems that they want to delay its widespread implementation as much as possible, which would discourage the use of THB as the sole legal tender. The biggest threat BTC poses it my opinion is the ease in which you can cross borders with it (a click of a few buttons, or carry a wallet in cold storage printout or on a usb stick).

In regards to the people claiming that BTC cannot be controlled, it may be true that no one person or entity can likely dissolve the entire bitcoin blockchain/community itself. However, individual gov'ts can choke the weakest link in the BTC/[local currency] conversion chain, which is the exchanger of BTC to/from the local currency. The exchanger can be required to obtain a money/currency exchanger license and/or business license and then that part of the business can be regulated by the gov't. Mainly, basic AML/KYC rules would apply to anyone buying/selling bitcoins.

Because USD is a de-facto world reserve currency, the USA i'm sure has a particular interest in how BTC is accepted and implemented in other countries, especially cash based societies like Thailand.

edit: In regards to being cynical about another Cyprus taking place, there is NOTHING stopping Cyprus or any other [Eurozone] gov't from declaring a bank holiday / bail-in in which the account holders are told that [for example] their $1000 in credits is now only $800. This is not a conspiracy theory; the bank closures and the atms running out of money was very real when the bank holidays were declared in Cyprus earlier this year (or use this google search). If I remember correctly, the EURUSD gapped down 150 pips on the opening following the news. I don't think that fiat currency will go away completely, but an alternative method of payment for goods and services that is completely independent of complete gov't control or shutdown is certainly gaining popularity. For those of us who still believe "that will never happen to me," BTC can be written off as just a game or something of a hobby. No one in Cyprus or Argentina woke up "that morning" thinking that they would be unable to access their credits.

Forex Magnates has been following Bitcoins very closely and recently has a dedicated section on it: http://forexmagnates.com/category/bitcoin-2/

edit 2: I was referring to using bitcoin for exchange of goods/services, not solely for speculative gain.

Edited July 30, 2013 by 4evermaat

[belg]

wow narrow minded

i can understand they would not allow banks to trade in this crappy scam money to avoid problems

but to make it illegal for anyone ...

but on the other hand : a few weeks ago on bloomberg tv, was the creator... and he did not make much sense to me or was explaining his product in english his problem and for me to understand ?

one day you buy bitcoin at 5 whatever amount you paid and tomorrow it can be worth 0 or 100

Edited July 30, 2013 by belg

[Cuban]

Guns are banned in Thailand and no one has them, right?

Clearly guns are not banned, just require a licence to own one, price and the hoops through which you must navigate attempt to reduce the numbers in civilian hands.

The rifle I used a few months ago is legally owned by a Thai relative, no drama.

Many illegal guns are home-made from motorbike parts, it's not hard.

...so does this mean you can't have any bitcoin apps on your smart phone in Thailand?

Clearly not as the BitCoin is not "banned" just one company seeking an account in Thailand was turned down.

The risk with BitCoin is that although it's secured with encryption and has a P2P network of cross checking the history of computers has proven again and again that given enough time and processing power there is a way in.

The value in any measure of currency is trust in the guarantor.

For BitCoin - time will tell.

[Briggsy]

Call me cynical but I am beginning to suspect that there are paid bots on internet forums pumping this bitcoin thing. Note the way that anyone who asks for info or says anything slightly negative about it, is personally attacked rather than debated with facts and figures.

[phiber]

Bitcoin is a good concept. I wouldn't say anonymous money transfers but let's say much more private than banks.

Personally I know a few people who live in Thailand and are unhappy about this

[beb]

Call me cynical but I am beginning to suspect that there are paid bots on internet forums pumping this bitcoin thing. Note the way that anyone who asks for info or says anything slightly negative about it, is personally attacked rather than debated with facts and figures.

I'll take that as in reference to my response to you. That wasn't meant as an attack at all so apologies if it came across as such. BTC is a very complicated issue and frankly I'm happy spending my time learning more for myself. I'm not offended by your dismissal of BTC but at the same time I'm not motivated to give an introductory lesson in something that is so complicated that I could spend an hour telling you about it and then if you were truly interested, would spend 100 times longer asking questions.

I enjoy discussing it and do at length on a regular basis with others with all of us raising issues and making challenges. We are always trying to find a weakness or an opportunity to discuss and explore. In short, I'm not motivated to blindly defend it because I want to find any weaknesses because I want them fixed if they exist.

But there are a lot of people who simply don't get it or don't want to. That's fine. Whatever is going to happen with BTC will happen with or without them. So my response to you was really just saying that I get the impression that you are not one of the people who will want to invest the kind of effort to really understand BTC. Maybe in a few years it will be packaged in a more consumer friendly manner, sort of like AOL in the early days, and it will be a lot easier to grasp.

The only thing in this thread that is annoying for most people involved in BTC (and I don't claim to speak for all of us) is the ignorance displayed in basically every news story ever written about this subject. It's as if some guy in New York was writing local news stories for Chiang Mai. Also, somebody here said they saw an interview with the creator of BTC. I'm sure everybody involved in it in any way will find that simply amazing.

[DekDaeng]

A simple example of the value of bitcoin is in international money transfers. Now poor workers typically have to pay Western Union ridiculous fees to send money back to their home country. With BTC they can do it at a fraction of the cost. This is something that can be done now. BTC has a long way to go as far as having a decent user interface and decent saturation in the markets but it will happen eventually.

Forget everything else, the technology is going to change the world.

I am genuinely interested in how this works and would like to make a cost comparison of the various ways available to a Thai worker to send money back to his home country and compare the exchange rates and fees. Let's assume I am a Thai worker in London, UK and want to send GBP 600.00 to my Krungsri bank account in Bangkok, Thailand.

Option 1: Western Union

1.1. What is the fee charged by Western Union in the UK?

1.2. What is the fee charged by Western Union in Thailand?

1.3. What is the exchange rate for GBP used by Western Union in Thailand today?

1.4. What is the fee charged by Western Union in Thailand?

1.5. What is the net amount paid by Western Union in Thailand into my Krungsri Bank account?

Option 2: Bitcoins

2.1. Where and how do I buy Bitcoins (BTC) in the UK?

2.2. What is the exchange rate for BTC used by the Bitcoin trader in the UK?

2.3. What is the fee charged by the Bitcoin trader in the UK?

2.4. Where and how do I sell BTC in Thailand?

2.5. What is the exchange rate used by the Bitcoin trader in Thailand today?

2.6. What is the fee charged by the Bitcoin trader in Thailand?

2.7. What is the net amount paid by the Bitcoin trader in Thailand into my Krungsri Bank account?

Option 3: SWIFT transfer from my NatWest bank account in London

3.1. What is the fee charged by NatWest?

3.2. What is the exchange rate for GBP used by Krungsri Bank today?

3.3. What is the fee charged by Krungsri Bank?

3.4. What is the net amount credited by Krungsri Bank to my account?

I have numbered all questions so that you may simply use the same numbers and put the corresponding answer next to it.

What did your last slave die of?

[geordieman2]

Ooooh.
I have a PC with a few high end videocards humming away mining bitcoins.
Have it for almost a year now, made some good cash out of it, lucky with the value shooting up a while ago, cashed some in already.

But from yesterday on apparently I'm a criminal, mining something which is now illegal. Still own a fair few of them.
Am I now on the same level as a bloke growing some weed?
Have I go to underground now to sell my "stash"?