Apprentice Asia Thai Contestant Competitiveness a Reflection of Thailand's Lacking Competitiveness?

[PaullyW]

Deleted

Edited August 7, 2013 by PaullyW

[PaullyW]

I think I forgot one:

4) 'sanuk' - which demands that everything be fun.

Surely it's no wonder why a culture with such priorities are not and have never been at the forefront of any great human progresses.

Such priorities translate very well into a free, 'live and let live' environment which most of us love. But the same priorities are ill-adapted to competitive endeavours and especially those where difficult obstacles must be overcome.

How can a person be competitive and produce when his culture dictates that he is:

1) unable to confront another person directly or at all even when doing so is obviously necessary to resolve an issue

2) does not understand that difficulty is often required to make great progress and not just giving up when things are hard because they believe 'it doesn't suit them'

3) must always be having fun and does not understand that probably almost none of human achievement has come about under fun circumstances

4) must preserve FACE often at the cost of making the personal progress that comes from being humble (losing FACE), admitting some defect or mistake or lack of understanding and then moving on to remedy it

This is not Thai bashing as there is much I love about Thailand's lazy, slow style. But it's hard to argue the cultural merits as they relate to work achievement or competitive endeavors.

[MrHammer]

Sure, this is plenty of ammo for those who claim that Thais:

1) Do not like competition

2) Would rather save face than risk embarassement

3) Prefer having fun over accomplishment

And they could be right. Or it was just this woman. Truth be told, if her attitude is common in Thailand, then I think I would like working in a Thai business. Don't get me wrong, I was very competetive before I became self employed, but I loathed the sociopathic mind games and manipulation found in some businesses. So actually, I will agree with this Thai lady and say that the best businesses do not have that kind of cut throath enviroment but rather work together for the benefit of all and eventually meritocracy decides the winner.

I've tried both back home and vastly prefer a working enviroment where people actually like each other and are not fiercely competetive.

So lets hear from those who have actually worked in a real job in Thailand, what's the deal?

[toybits]

I am amazed by the over-analysis given by posters on such a mind-numbing show! Truely Amazing! Why can't people just get over it? Are these people punters who lost money because their favorite candidate did not win?

[PaullyW]

I am amazed by the over-analysis given by posters on such a mind-numbing show! Truely Amazing! Why can't people just get over it? Are these people punters who lost money because their favorite candidate did not win?

Mate if the conversation is too difficult for you, may I suggest you click over to the pub forum?

Should be much easier in there.

[toybits]

Let me guess, you lost money on this?

Mate if the conversation is too difficult for you, may I suggest you click over to the pub forum?

Should be much easier in there.

[zeichen]

"Surely it's no wonder why a culture with such priorities are not and have never been at the forefront of any great human progresses."

???

Can you be any more ignorant? Or are you really just trying to troll reactions?

I think that you have gone way past your original argument into really racist ignorance.

All 4 of your statements which you seem to hold as truths are very inaccurate. First of all Thais do confront, they just don't do it in a loud or blatant manner. If it works for them, why fault them.

Of course that is because your bottom line argument is that everything in the west is better and even a fat old armchair warrior is better suited and gives more to the world than any lazy, fun loving Thai person.

[pancakeman]

With a show like this you are only talking about a very thin slither of Thai society that could even qualify.

Speak English well (ie private international school educated)

Young (20-30)

Unsuccessful in their own career (if you had a successful and fulfilling career you would not be on this show)

Seeking fame/attention

Highly concerned with appearances

So basically you are talking about a few thousand rich kid Thai brats that would even quality. And what do you think their personality is going to be like?

[PaullyW]

"Surely it's no wonder why a culture with such priorities are not and have never been at the forefront of any great human progresses."

 

 

???

 

Can you be any more ignorant? Or are you really just trying to troll reactions?

 

I think that you have gone way past your original argument into really racist ignorance.

 

All 4 of your statements which you seem to hold as truths are very inaccurate. First of all Thais do confront, they just don't do it in a loud or blatant manner. If it works for them, why fault them.

Of course that is because your bottom line argument is that everything in the west is better and even a fat old armchair warrior is better suited and gives more to the world than any lazy, fun loving Thai person.

I can see you resort to personal attacks on me rather than spending that effort addressing the topic.

If they were positive traits I listed, I wonder if you would have any problem agreeing with them?

Do you agree that all traits are equally useful in all circumstances?

Please explain yourself better, preferably without the 3rd grade, juvenile attacks on me.

[zeichen]

You are clearly trolling. I wish this forum had a block user. So I wouldn't have to read your posts any longer.

Why should I defend or argue against what you said. If you cannot agree "Surely it's no wonder why a culture with such priorities are not and have never been at the forefront of any great human progresses" this is an ignorant statement.

First of all. Fact you have never been with any successful people in this country. You have never had a Thai boss, You have never worked with Thai people that were your equal or your superiors in the work force.

All of your truths are ignorant stereotypes that do not fit. Avoiding direct confrontation isn't the same as avoiding confrontation.

Perhaps you didn't live here 10 years ago when a Thai women had a bad day with Honda. Thai people are not submissive. Submissive classes are submissive but leading classes are not.

I had dinner with Jack Eckerd (Eckerd drug store chain) and a few other CEO's. They were talking and Jack said that after about 10 years he no longer cared about expanding his business to make more money. He said the thing that drove him was to eliminate the competition. I was a competitive athlete (not high ranked). The mindset to be a top champion is not to do your best or to even win. It is to destroy your competition. I don't believe that all successful business need to follow that approach. The cut throat back stabbing nature of these TV shows is not conducive to a healthy lifestyle and shouldn't be held as the ideal that Thais or any nation should strive for.

[Berkshire]

You are clearly trolling. I wish this forum had a block user. So I wouldn't have to read your posts any longer.

Why should I defend or argue against what you said. If you cannot agree "Surely it's no wonder why a culture with such priorities are not and have never been at the forefront of any great human progresses" this is an ignorant statement.

First of all. Fact you have never been with any successful people in this country. You have never had a Thai boss, You have never worked with Thai people that were your equal or your superiors in the work force.

All of your truths are ignorant stereotypes that do not fit. Avoiding direct confrontation isn't the same as avoiding confrontation.

Perhaps you didn't live here 10 years ago when a Thai women had a bad day with Honda. Thai people are not submissive. Submissive classes are submissive but leading classes are not.

I had dinner with Jack Eckerd (Eckerd drug store chain) and a few other CEO's. They were talking and Jack said that after about 10 years he no longer cared about expanding his business to make more money. He said the thing that drove him was to eliminate the competition. I was a competitive athlete (not high ranked). The mindset to be a top champion is not to do your best or to even win. It is to destroy your competition. I don't believe that all successful business need to follow that approach. The cut throat back stabbing nature of these TV shows is not conducive to a healthy lifestyle and shouldn't be held as the ideal that Thais or any nation should strive for.

Very well articulated, Mr. Zeichen. I agree 100% with your sentiments. It's clear what Paully is trying to do--simply bad science. That is, come up with some sort of hypothesis (which is essentially his opinion) and try to find evidence to support it. In this case, just one example and a weak one at that. Along the way, he comes up with all kinds of convoluted and tired explanations (e.g., Thai face, Thai sanuk, blah blah blah), none of which would withstand scientific scrutiny...if we're even going to refer to this as any sort of pseudo study.

It would be the same as someone suggesting that all farang males in Thailand are degenerate pedo's and providing one article of a pedo being arrested to support his entire claim. (truthfully, there would be much more evidence to support THAT claim)

Anyways, I commend your patience, which is a lot more than I would afford this entire trolling thread.

[yermanee]

. But I applaud anyone who makes an attempt on a show and has the courage to remain true to their integrity. I don't fault them or their entire culture.

Says it all really.

Integrity is noticeably absent in all these so called reality-shows.

Yermanee

[PaullyW]

You are clearly trolling. I wish this forum had a block user. So I wouldn't have to read your posts any longer.

Why should I defend or argue against what you said. If you cannot agree "Surely it's no wonder why a culture with such priorities are not and have never been at the forefront of any great human progresses" this is an ignorant statement.

First of all. Fact you have never been with any successful people in this country. You have never had a Thai boss, You have never worked with Thai people that were your equal or your superiors in the work force.

All of your truths are ignorant stereotypes that do not fit. Avoiding direct confrontation isn't the same as avoiding confrontation.

Perhaps you didn't live here 10 years ago when a Thai women had a bad day with Honda. Thai people are not submissive. Submissive classes are submissive but leading classes are not.

I had dinner with Jack Eckerd (Eckerd drug store chain) and a few other CEO's. They were talking and Jack said that after about 10 years he no longer cared about expanding his business to make more money. He said the thing that drove him was to eliminate the competition. I was a competitive athlete (not high ranked). The mindset to be a top champion is not to do your best or to even win. It is to destroy your competition. I don't believe that all successful business need to follow that approach. The cut throat back stabbing nature of these TV shows is not conducive to a healthy lifestyle and shouldn't be held as the ideal that Thais or any nation should strive for.

Very well articulated, Mr. Zeichen. I agree 100% with your sentiments. It's clear what Paully is trying to do--simply bad science. That is, come up with some sort of hypothesis (which is essentially his opinion) and try to find evidence to support it. In this case, just one example and a weak one at that. Along the way, he comes up with all kinds of convoluted and tired explanations (e.g., Thai face, Thai sanuk, blah blah blah), none of which would withstand scientific scrutiny...if we're even going to refer to this as any sort of pseudo study.

It would be the same as someone suggesting that all farang males in Thailand are degenerate pedo's and providing one article of a pedo being arrested to support his entire claim. (truthfully, there would be much more evidence to support THAT claim)

Anyways, I commend your patience, which is a lot more than I would afford this entire trolling thread.

Neither of you seem to know how to make clear counter arguments, so I really don't know how to have educated discussion with you. It's pretty pathetic to attack a person rather than an argument and can be said to show a lack of intellect. And, somehow, zeichen knows so many intimate details about my life (which are far from true). Strange that (ostensibly) adult men would behave in such a way. But, I'll play along - just a bit.

zeichen, yes, I live and work in Thailand many years. Yes, my Thai wife is doctoral educated in the US and is back in Thailand working at a very prestigious international firm. Yes, I am a partner at an international firm with all kinds of people - Thai, non-Thai. Yes, I know plenty of successful Thais including some people who are probably regarded as quite important in Thailand.

You both let me down. Attacking someone or even dismissing their argument is not a good substitute for making your own - unless you are a teenager.

[benalibina]

All these discussions and personal attacks on a topic where a girl was honest that participating further on in the show was " not her cup of tea" .

Go play golf for money with thais and see if they are competetive or not !

[zeichen]

"Mate if the conversation is too difficult for you, may I suggest you click over to the pub forum?"

preferably without the 3rd grade, juvenile attacks on me.

"unless you are a teenager"

Hey Pot,

Yes Kettle

YOU ARE BLACK.

The reason that I cannot or will not debate each point that you have stated is that there is no way to tell someone that they are completely wrong without as you say attacking them. You have firmly concreted your opinion based on very little evidence and nothing anyone says will ever convince you. You are not interested in having a debate, you are interested in finding out who agrees with you and then trolling those that don't. You have not stated any reasonable argument at all. So how can I debate it.

You have no argument, you have stereotypes and perceptions that are not based in reality. I could show examples of how these "cultural traits" manifest themselves differently but what is the point.

Thais actually don't have a problem with confrontation. They do have some need for building conflict resolution skills though. I have done some corporate training in this. Some times workers shut down after being confronted on certain issues. So there is a way working withing a Thai cultural vernacular that allows for this.

FYI saving face isn't just about you saving your face it is about respect. Just because people may or may not be sensitive to others doesn't make them less apt for the business world. Telling someone that they screwed up doesn't actually help them. Showing them how things can be done better next time does and then you avoid them losing face.

I wonder if "Thai firm" that you are partner in, does that mean you are a lawyer?

How not discuss these statements of yours with the people you work with. Tell them that because they are Thai that they are not suited for the business world. That they lack some competitive edge because they just want to have fun all day. That as a people they have not contributed to society as a whole.

See what kind of response you get from them.

Seems by your comments that you have a disdain for the culture and the people which is sad that you are actually married to one. But perhaps it is because she is different than the average person and thus worthy of your respect.

I really wonder if you actually have this discussion with her.

Also if you are so successful in a Thai International firm, then how do you have time to watch brainless shows? Perhaps you are not any better than those that you judge so harshly.

[PaullyW]

Good. I see you are trying. Although, I would suggest you spend some time reading about logic fallacies.

Amazing familiarity

Ad hominem

Argument by dismissal

Failure to state

You say "there is no way to tell someone that they are wrong without as say attacking them". Really?? Is that what you teach in corporate trainings?

You say that I do not have an argument and that it is because I use stereotypes and also perceptions not based in reality. Really?? Is it a prerequisite that an argument be based in fact and not use stereotyping? Can you double check the meaning of the word 'argument'. I realize not everyone's first language is English.

Thais don't have a problem with confrontation? I'm not sure I ever said they did. I did say that it is a strong cultural preference to avoid confrontation and to seek harmony. Is what I actually say here incorrect? Search Google for "overcoming the fear of conflict in Asian companies" and tell me what you think once you've read a little. Question is: does this have an impact on Thai work competitiveness? How?

FACE is actually quite a complex topic and is expressed in many, sometimes not obvious ways. Can you please express how you think FACE manifests itself most commonly in the Thai workplace and what impact (positive or negative) you think it has? I realize you say you cannot do this without attacking me personally, so feel free to attack. I'll take it just to hear your argument. Google "making sense of face in Thailand". That might help.

Why would I say things to my Thai staff which might hurt their feelings and be counter productive? Even if I believe my arguments/stereotypes, I'm not sure why I would express them to the people I'm charged with improving or managing. Makes no sense.

Don't feel sad for me. I'm fine. No, not a legal partner. Yes, my wife thankfully does not have the character traits I mention here. No, I do not have disdain for all of Thai cultural foundations. Yes, my wife and I discuss this type of topic. Yes, I would consider myself successful and I have time because I manage my time well, often work 4 days a week, often work from our home in Bangkok, and sometimes even have vacation. Perhaps you are correct that I might not be any better than those who (not that) I judge so harshly.

Whew! Answered all of your points. See, it's not so difficult if you try.

[GrantSmith]

Hey PaullyW, do your staff in the office also believe the thai contest is a ladyboy?

I only watched the first 2 and a half episodes primarily due to the quality (or lack thereof) of the contestants - I'm shocked to read that the filipino constest Jonathon won the thing. I actually thought he should have been fired in the 2nd episode. But I digress...

As for the original question, is Dussadee's decision to quit on the basis of the bullsh!t that occurs on this show a reflection of thai competitivenesss?

It is a good question indeed, some could look at this argument more as a reflection of the individual - and use the individuals past as a reason for said decision. Having left Thailand to return to New Orleans following the 2004 tsunami, she then followed that up with returning back to Khao Lak after Hurricane Katrina . Right there you can see a pattern forming. The going got tough, so she packed up her stuff and headed back home.

You could very well use this scenario as a basis for your whole argument. Would you go so far as to call her a coward for getting out of dodge, twice? Highly unlikely but nevertheless you could twist it in such a way, that by doing what she did on The Apprentice Asia was history repeating itself, albeit in an extreme kind of way.

Personally, I don't think it's a reflection of Thai competitiveness, however as they say "perception is reality" and it's entirely plausible that one could be perceived as being un-competitive by simply acting in a way that if you can stand the heat, get out of the kitchen - ironic given that Dussadee owns a restaurant. By the way, has anyone visited her restaurant Fizz Bar & Bistro? On face value it sounds like a candidate for Gordon Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares.

I think her decision to quit is more reflective of her as a person. New Orleans, a pretty laid back part of the USA. Khao Lak's not exactly Bangkok. She doesn't appear to be all for the corporate world and the competitiveness that entails. Perhaps she bit off more than she could chew?

Plenty of Thai's out there in corporate Bangkok that would do whatever they could, however they could to be competitive. No difference really between the basics corporate Thailand and the basics of corporate Farangland, it's just in Thailand for a number of us here we have to rely on and believe in a translated version of events.

Anyway, at the end of the day PaullyW - you have far too much time on your hands to be thinking about Thai anticompetitiveness being related to a reality TV show contestant.

But I guess, Thai Visa Forum is just a place for you to express your thoughts and vent your frustrations.

[yourauntbob]

Well Thais aren't all the same.

Not all Germans are good technicians, not all Americans are uneducated, not all Russians drink Vodka.

And even if generalized there are big cultural differences between North, Northeast, South, Deep South, central, Chinese ethnic, etc etc.

Some are more relaxed some are more competitive.

yes they do/are

[NeverToReturn]

If you think 1 candidate reflects an entire country up to you.

What about the candidates for the US or British version are they all that gifted?

If you're using the term gifted in the sense of referring to the retarded then yes they are all gifted.