Honda cbr650 2014

[WingNut]

I was looking in the English language owner's manual for this bike that I downloaded from the internet and it said that you can change the setting from kilometers per hour to miles per hour on the instrument panel, and the same for the odometer settings, if you want to. But I went through the menu settings on the bike and it doesn't have that option from what I can see. So my guess is that they have disabled this option in the software for these bikes being sold in Thailand. Does anyone know anything about this perhaps?

Also, does anyone know of someone in Thailand who can dyno the bike and then flash the ECU with a new custom ECU map? I know this is a pretty recent hack that they started doing in some Western countries and maybe they don't know how to do it yet here. But it seems like this is the method of choice now for many people instead of adding a Power Commander because apparently a reflash of the ECU can also remove and override all that restrictive stuff they put on the bikes for Asia to reduce HP and which is also something a Power Commander can't do so easily. An ECU flash would be ideal since you don't have to add on any extra hardware. Any place to get it done on this bike here?

any links on where did you see an ecu reflash for 650 series honda?

i believe a pc5 is better as you can do unlimited adjustments according to your needs.

and an ecu flash is a one time affair plus it costs as much as a pc5 what i see. and you need to send ti somewhere and need to wait for a month to get it back and cannot ride your bike during this time of course.

Sorry, I haven't actually seen any links on an ECU reflash for this bike, but was asking.

I have mixed emotions about doing a PC5, but thanks.

An ECU flash in Thailand though might be cheaper than in Western countries. That's why I was looking for a possible local source to do it.

And, yes, for that reason too I would prefer a local source instead of sending it overseas, being without the bike for a month or longer, and then if something goes wrong they are too far away. Wouldn't really want to go that route.

[WingNut]

Saw this though, looks like a cheaper type of PC tuned for the CBR650F and instal looks very simple:

http://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detail/dyno-boost-motorcycle-performance-chip/honda/cbr650f

User reviews sound positive on it.

I also found the AP Shop's FaceBook page talking about ECU flashing and some prices. Again, they only do Kawa, but prices are about half the cost of a PC5 on average:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.614680361981616.1073741874.243343525781970&type=1

If you drop the page link into a Google Chrome browser then it will translate to English for you.

[ll2]

Saw this though, looks like a cheaper type of PC tuned for the CBR650F and instal looks very simple:

http://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detail/dyno-boost-motorcycle-performance-chip/honda/cbr650f

User reviews sound positive on it.

I also found the AP Shop's FaceBook page talking about ECU flashing and some prices. Again, they only do Kawa, but prices are about half the cost of a PC5 on average:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.614680361981616.1073741874.243343525781970&type=1

If you drop the page link into a Google Chrome browser then it will translate to English for you.

Looks interesting. First time heard this brand.

15 percent increase on hp and torque sounds suspicious though but maybe it is what it is.

[NomadJoe]

Papa al.. it all depends where you live.. pattaya or phuket. Probably. Some parts of Bkk maybe. Most over places, unlikely!

Keep the old parts to put back on!

I've had a few loud bikes over the years in Phuket and was never bothered. I don't recall any of my loud bike riding friends having any issues either.

[WingNut]

Interesting find. I just spoke with this shop and they said they can do an ECU map reflash on a CBR650F for 4,500 Baht. I was just curious if anyone might have heard of this shop or knows anyone there personally? I spoke with a very nice girl from the shop on the phone and she said it takes about two hours to reflash the ECU. I would be curious though what map they are using, etc. If anyone might have any insight please share. My main concern is that if the reflash isn't done correctly it could cause the bike to damage itself when riding with incorrect mapping running in the ECU. This is the shop:

http://www.furiishop.com/contact

Cheers...

[ll2]

Interesting find. I just spoke with this shop and they said they can do an ECU map reflash on a CBR650F for 4,500 Baht. I was just curious if anyone might have heard of this shop or knows anyone there personally? I spoke with a very nice girl from the shop on the phone and she said it takes about two hours to reflash the ECU. I would be curious though what map they are using, etc. If anyone might have any insight please share. My main concern is that if the reflash isn't done correctly it could cause the bike to damage itself when riding with incorrect mapping running in the ECU. This is the shop:

http://www.furiishop.com/contact

Cheers...

i know furii shop. the are around for a while.

never heard about their ecu reflash service.

worth checking out. maybe i check their shop and inquire more this weekend.

but they do the re flash according to what? full system pipe or stock pipe? aftermarket air filter with airbox mods or stock filter and airbox?

hope they put these into consideration when they are doing the re flash and do the tune accordingly. if not there might be problems.

4500 thb is not cheap when dynojet pc5 arrives Thailand with all possible taxes around 13,000 but curious about the re flash.

thanks for digging this out.

Edited February 9, 2015 by ll2

[Hili]

don't know furii shop personally but as il2 said they are well known. Point when reflashing is that you need a reference map first. A proper map can be only created on a dyno etc.. so they should be able to show you the reference map, if they not able to do so i wouldn't do it as in fact they could do it more worse than stock. So flashing is easy but to create/ tune a good map is the challenge here. In the end every different setup (pipe, air filter, decat....) would need its own map, so i am curious which map they want to flash.

[WingNut]

Thanks for your feedback from both of you. I had actually asked the girl on the phone how they do the map, if they dyno the bike first, or how they do it. She was trying to be helpful but perhaps didn't know enough to answer my query and told me that they only need to hook up to the ECU to load in a new map and that it takes about 2 hours. Maybe she didn't quite understand what running a dyno means or what I meant exactly. But if it takes 2 hours then maybe they do dyno the bike first. As you guys said, just loading any old map on there might not be good. Ideally you want one that is customized to your bike by running the dyno with any mods you've made like pipe changes, etc to determine the perfect setup. I was thinking of trying to figure out where they are and going down there myself to try and get some more info. But II2, if you know the shop, and can pop in there and get some more info on what map they use, if they make a custom one each time from running a dyno, or how they do it, then that would be great. I'm more keen to do a reflash if I can get a custom tailor made map made than loading in aftermarket hardware like a PC5 with a map preset from PC.

[Hili]

From what i know apshop doing reflashes with individually created maps on a dyno. Hes using the dyno from jc superbike....

[WingNut]

Thanks, yes, AP only does Kawa bikes though. But Furiishop said they can do a Honda CBR650F too.

I believe to flash any ECU requires being able to unlock and hack into the ECU's software. So far it seems Kawasaki is possible, but not sure about Honda. So I'm actually a bit skeptical if anyone can do it at all, regardless of running a dyno and/or having a map they think they can load in. If you can't hack into the ECU to begin with then not much can be done at all I think other than install a PC5. I also have a CBR250R. If I could get that one reflashed first and all goes well then I would be more inclined to try it with my CBR650F. But I'm a bit worried about something going wrong, unless I'm sure the shop that will be doing it really knows what they are doing.

Edited February 9, 2015 by WingNut

[paz]

Thanks, yes, AP only doesI believe to flash any ECU requires being able to unlock and hack into the ECU's software. So far it seems Kawasaki is possible, but not sure about Honda. So I'm actually a bit skeptical if anyone can do it at all, regardless of running a dyno and/or having a map they think they can load in. If you can't hack into the ECU to begin with then not much can be done at all I think other than install a PC5. I also have a CBR250R. If I could get that one reflashed first and all goes well then I would be more inclined to try it with my CBR650F. But I'm a bit worried about something going wrong, unless I'm sure the shop that will be doing it really knows what they are doing.

Technically no unlock and or serious hacking is needed for a reflash. What a true expert does is to identify the area where the fueling and ignition maps are stored in flash, and slightly modify certain values. once he has done that everyone just copies it. Below an example device that is used for in-circuit re-programming of flash memory.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Platform-Cable-USB-XILINX-FPGA-CPLD-JTAG-DLC9G-in-circuit-Debugger-Programmer-/261127458640

[WingNut]

Thanks, yes, AP only doesI believe to flash any ECU requires being able to unlock and hack into the ECU's software. So far it seems Kawasaki is possible, but not sure about Honda. So I'm actually a bit skeptical if anyone can do it at all, regardless of running a dyno and/or having a map they think they can load in. If you can't hack into the ECU to begin with then not much can be done at all I think other than install a PC5. I also have a CBR250R. If I could get that one reflashed first and all goes well then I would be more inclined to try it with my CBR650F. But I'm a bit worried about something going wrong, unless I'm sure the shop that will be doing it really knows what they are doing.

Technically no unlock and or serious hacking is needed for a reflash. What a true expert does is to identify the area where the fueling and ignition maps are stored in flash, and slightly modify certain values. once he has done that everyone just copies it. Below an example device that is used for in-circuit re-programming of flash memory.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Platform-Cable-USB-XILINX-FPGA-CPLD-JTAG-DLC9G-in-circuit-Debugger-Programmer-/261127458640

COOL!

[RubberSideDown]

Not only do you need to fully hack into an ECU to do a reflash, you also need the stock .bin files to make changes (these files have been accessed with Kawasaki, which is why it's easy to work on a new map for one- Honda so far has been more difficult, and it's why people who wanted to upgrade the restricted CBR1000RR models they bought at Big Wing had to buy new ECUs instead of flashing the existing unit).

Here's the stock 1st gear secondary throttle plate opening sequence map for my bike for the low power mode- note there are maps for the five other gears (plus a completely different map to deal with for high power mode), plus maps for fueling and ignition, as well as settings for rev limit, top-speed limit, traction control settings, etc- unless the tuner has full access to the stock map, he's not going to be able to make proper changes. It's way more involved than than you think- each separate value on this map has to be modified (or at least checked) to do it properly. Also, there was a power-limiting 'safety mode' in my ECU that had to be overwritten, and without a full hack into the ECU it couldn't have been done.

This is a reading directly from my ECU- there are over 700 values which can be modified for first gear alone (though the gearing maps can be unified)- then there are over 700 for fueling (which can remain stock if you use a Power Commander, which I do), and then over 700 for ignition- you get the idea;)- proper ECU tuning is a fairly difficult process compared to setting up a fueling map on a PC:

Edited February 9, 2015 by RubberSideDown

[paz]

RSD, you're of course correct, but the fact that your bike mapping is so sophisticated does not imply that also the CB650 or any other Honda is the same.

There is no uniformity, for each new bike they can do pretty much as they want and keep things simple for cost reasons, making things easier for tuners.

So when a given ecu is indeed reflashable (and not all are) and the map(s) start circulating, then there is a trend of decreasing cost to have it done. That's all what I'm saying.

Edited February 10, 2015 by paz

[WingNut]

Thanks for that RSD. It does sound like a challenge to get it right and not sure it is worth taking a chance doing it at all.

[RubberSideDown]

^^

The maps will be basically the same in the sense that they're calculated using RPM and throttle position- the increments can of course be less fine than what I posted above, but even if there were half or a third as many values to deal with, it's still a fairly sophisticated process involving hundreds of cells and possible changes.

^

If there's a 'canned map' (meaning a pre-existing one instead of a custom one) for your particular bike with the same (and I mean exactly the same, i.e. using the same brand and model of exhaust) mods, then there's no reason not to use it- there might be very slight differences related to temperature or elevation, but not enough to worry about unless you live at the top of a mountain. My bike was actually tuned by a tuner in Canada- he personally owns the same bike wi the same exhaust system and is running the same PC map as me, so I used his map with some slight changes for the local environment, and it's spot-on- I doubt a local tuner could have custom-made something better.

[paz]

RSD once again you're talking about high-end tuning for high-end bikes. An approach that is perfectly suited for track use or demanding owners.

Now what happens is that today's bikes ship with a restrictive exhaust, a mediocre intake, and a pathologically lean fueling. Ignition is then compromised to balance these impairments.

The moment you fit an exhaust and possibly have some head work done, the bike will need a new map. It doesn't really matter if it is a custom one or it done for a different exhaust, it doesn't matter if it explores all the sophistication of the stock ECU, all what matters is that it sprays some more fuel where there was none before (especially at low revs), and that corrects ignition while doing so. The biggest gains are made on torque that is the thing that puts you in a corner without hesitation (engine purrs full and round) and pulls you out of it quickly. The bike will be much more pleasant to driver even for everyday use. Any reasonably done map will be better than the stock one.

Sure any exhaust will have it's characteristics in terms of extracting capacity, flow issues due to resonance at certain revs, etc. Some may be so poorly made that offer no much advantage. But once again, a new map, even a canned one will be needed, or don't fit an exhaust at all. On the benefits of remapping with a stock exhaust I won't discuss - I have no experience or interest in that.

All that said, the fact that a shop in Thailand is available to remap the CB650 for a reasonable cost is undoubtedly good news. Until proved that it cause engines to blow

[RubberSideDown]

My point is that unless you've fully hacked your way into an ECU and can access the stock map, you can't make any changes to it, basic or otherwise- it's not like fitting a blind piggy-back unit like a Power Commander into the process, where it's basically hit-or-miss guesswork where fuel is added or subtracted and the actual value being altered is never known (in fact, a PC can be obviated entirely with a full ECU tune- I'm considering dumping mine). With full ECU access, the tuner knows exactly what's being changed, and an experienced tuner can look at the stock map and see where the most good can likely be done before he alters anything.

As far as ignition timing goes, that's were you can really screw up a bike by making incorrect changes- seeing the original values is really important for doing it properly, and it's why you have to be careful using just any reflash

[RubberSideDown]

Basically, there's only one way to reflash an ECU- the ECU first has to be hacked so the original map can be accessed and downloaded- changes are made as the tuner deems necessary, and the new map (which is an altered version of the original- if it's not, it won't work) is uploaded- there's no simpler way to make changes to it. You've either got the entire map, or none of it.

Fueling can be changed via a Power Commander or similar unit (though not timing and other settings), but the ECU remains unchanged.

[paz]

Basically, there's only one way to reflash an ECU- the ECU first has to be hacked so the original map can be accessed and downloaded- changes are made as the tuner deems necessary, and the new map (which is an altered version of the original- if it's not, it won't work) is uploaded- there's no simpler way to make changes to it. You've either got the entire map, or none of it.

Absolutely agree, I did not mentioned that before for simplicity, but not all ECUs need a "full hack", some have the maps exposed, that is the data is not software or hardware protected. Again that is a decision by the manufacturer, in some cases they can see an advantage in leaving the maps easily accessible.

We don't know if the CBR650 ECU is protected or not, or to which point it is. What we know is that someone has made a re-map available but we don't have an reliable user report yet.

[RubberSideDown]

Which manufacturers leave their fueling and ignition maps unencrypted and exposed? I don't think Honda would do that on any CBR model- I know that the CBR1000RR, for example, took a lot of work to crack. Even most dealers don't have the ability to read an ECU beyond engine diagnostics, and they have to send customer ECUs out for reflashing. For warranty reasons Honda wants to keep unauthorized people out of their ECUs. The new R1 is supposed to offer some user accessibility, but I don't know of any others that do that. I'd be interested to know of some, though- I think it's a good idea from an owner perspective, but I can see why manufacturers wouldn't do it.

If the CBR650 has easy access, there would be information on it somewhere- I can't find anything beyond the shop mentioned in the OP.

Edited February 10, 2015 by RubberSideDown

[WingNut]

Paz, as you said: "All that said, the fact that a shop in Thailand is available to remap the CB650 for a reasonable cost is undoubtedly good news. Until proved that it cause engines to blow :)"

That's what im concerned about. I don't know enough about the technology to know how to judge a shop's ability. I don't think I would be willing to put up my bike as a test case, nor would anyone else I think. Maybe someone like you or RSD can go talk to this shop and find out how they are doing it and if it would be worth undertaking. I don't think there is a question about the cost being inline. Definitely seems worth it for what they are charging f they know how to do it right. It's more about what you will get out of it and if it will potentially damage your bike.

Edited February 10, 2015 by WingNut

[RubberSideDown]

^

I'm not in BKK, but even if I (or someone who knows a lot more about tuning than me) were to go, there's not much thst could be told from talking to them or viewing some dyno charts and A/F ratio readings- dynos can be manipulated, and people say what they think you want to hear if it will make them a buck. Other riders who have already had it done are your best source of information.

I found my tuner through a recommendation, and researched him- after reading over a dozen positive reviews (including a few from people who had their bikes independently dynoed before and after the flash), I contacted him and we worked out a deal on a map (I bought the tuning tools elsewhere and flashed the ECU myself).

Like you, I didn't want to be a 'test pilot';)

[paz]

Paz, as you said: "All that said, the fact that a shop in Thailand is available to remap the CB650 for a reasonable cost is undoubtedly good news. Until proved that it cause engines to blow :)"

Mine was more a joke than anything. Not much chances of damaging anything. Have you fitted an exhaust and/or done intake work ?

[WingNut]

I've just had a cheap knock off pipe added. But it sounds nice. If you go back through the thread a few pages you can see what I've done with the pipe. To be honest, I'm just a street rider and really just enjoy the bike for what it is. I had thought a reflash would be a simple thing that might add a bit of torque in the low-rev range. But now after reading what you guys said I realize it's tricky to get it done right. I'm probably not going to do anything more to the bike at this point. I got some frame sliders today though. Gonna put those on soon. Probably more needed in my case than an ECU reflash or a PC5. Haha.

[paz]

I see.. When you have a chance give a look to the plugs, which color do they get after some good blasting.

[guzzi850m2]

I would have thought that the factory fueling/mapping is good enough for most? Perhaps on the lean side with the strict emulsion laws which especially Harley and Triumph Bonneville surfers under due to air cooled engines and a lot of power to gain by re-mapping and more free flowing air intake and exhaust.

Okay if you change the exhaust you disturb the fueling but many FI can/will compensate for that.

I know that on my V650 2015 the mapping is updated for this year and the exhaust pipes are welded on the exhaust silencer. So not possible to change exhaust without cutting the pipes which is not gonna happen on my bike. Sorry a bit off topic.

[WingNut]

I just put on a pair of those RSV Racing engine sliders. I didn't want to go to pick them up from their shop in Latprao because it is far from me and deep in a Soi, so I did a cash transfer to their bank account and they shipped them to me via EMS. Then to install them you need to remove the 3 existing screws on each side of your bike, which requires a 5mm and an 8mm Hex Wrench for the 3 screws. Then to install the new screws and bolt on each side requires the 5mm Hex Wrench again and a size 14 socket.

After installing the left side myself, unfortunately the main aluminum barrel spacer for the right side wasn't cut perfectly by the factory, was too big, and would not fit into the recessed area around where the main bolt fits in. Eventually I went up to their smaller branch shop on Suthisan Road (between Inthamarat Soi 12 and Soi 14) in the Saphan Kwai, Phaholyothin Road area and the guy there put the over-sized spacer on a lathe and shaved it down a bit so it would fit into the whole. He then installed the right side engine slider for me. A little bit of extra running around, but they were accommodating and it worked out.

Edited February 13, 2015 by WingNut

[WingNut]

Here is another short video of the bike with the exhaust and the engine sliders now on the bike:

[ll2]

I just put on a pair of those RSV Racing engine sliders. I didn't want to go to pick them up from their shop in Latprao because it is far from me and deep in a Soi, so I did a cash transfer to their bank account and they shipped them to me via EMS. Then to install them you need to remove the 3 existing screws on each side of your bike, which requires a 5mm and an 8mm Hex Wrench for the 3 screws. Then to install the new screws and bolt on each side requires the 5mm Hex Wrench again and a size 14 socket.

After installing the left side myself, unfortunately the main aluminum barrel spacer for the right side wasn't cut perfectly by the factory, was too big, and would not fit into the recessed area around where the main bolt fits in. Eventually I went up to their smaller branch shop on Suthisan Road (between Inthamarat Soi 12 and Soi 14) in the Saphan Kwai, Phaholyothin Road area and the guy there put the over-sized spacer on a lathe and shaved it down a bit so it would fit into the whole. He then installed the right side engine slider for me. A little bit of extra running around, but they were accommodating and it worked out.

nice.

i have the same rsv sliders too and they are strong with three mounts. I had a one mount one bought from K speed before but i snapped two times in a row out of the blue while running fast. possibly could not stand the vibration and heat. k speed paid the money back.

I have never had a chance to test teh sliders yet:) and of course never wil but i can carry one week of shopping hanged on them and also during long trips, i stretch my legs on them like harley style and feel very comfortable! and they are strong to carry all those bags and my big boney legs.

RSV factory and RSV shop you went are 1 km to each other actually.

Just dont make wrench the nuts so tight. This is aluminum. otherwise you eat the threads.

Edited February 13, 2015 by ll2