Russia will enforce anti-gay propaganda law at Sochi Olympics, govt says

[Jingthing]

Now that IS original. I am pretty sure someone is working on copywriting the so-called Berlin-Sochi thingumabob already.

As I see it, the madness is outside Russia at the moment.

Is the end game a homeland for gay people from all over the world?

I thought not. It's just hard to see where to draw the line when you start arbitrarily likening vastly incomparable events in human history just to gain bandwidth.

We tried that in San Francisco, but we found there were too many Pedestrians ...

I think these two events are actually more comparable than you want to admit, which is also the reason, no matter how loudly people who don't like the comparison whine, the comparison won't go away.

Both are Olympics. A major international event with the eyes of the world watching

Both being run in countries with dictators.

Both being run in countries with recently passed laws scapegoating a specific minority group that is widely hated.

Both events featuring Olympic officials happy to cave in to the demands of the regimes on sensitive details related to the laws scapegoating the respective hated minority groups. Don't make waves! On with the games! Never mind the rights of the Jews. Never mind the rights of the gays.

[Jingthing]

Another point worth noting regarding these RECENT laws.

Sure in many countries there are laws on the books that are ambiguous and/ or archaic.

There might be a law in a U.S. state from 200 years ago saying it's a felony to shampoo your mule on the Sabbath.

The law might still be on the books, but it's a joke.

These recent laws in Russia might be ambiguous but they were passed RECENTLY with a clear target being the Russian gay people.

Passed without even ONE vote in opposition.

So they have a chilling effect in Russia on Russian gays (as if it wasn't cold enough there) whether they are fully enforced to the fully severe extent of what is possible due to their ambiguity right away or not. They CAN be enforced and the ambiguity CAN be used to extremes.

Supposing the Russians "behave" somewhat up through Sochi for the sake of saving Sochi from meltdown. Then what?

They STILL have these chilling laws on the books targeted at gay people and also of course gay rights ADVOCACY groups.

This isn't really about Sochi. It's about the scapegoating of gays in Russia.

[LeCharivari]

The FACT is that yesterday I was speeding. I didn't get stopped. Does that mean the law doesn't exist?

Because the Russians haven't arrested anybody doesn't mean that they can't or won't.

You mentioned a number of points, but didn't mentioned what happens if you have done a number of them in tandem.

You seem to want us to think that this really isn't happening and that all these people are just making it up. The Russian gov't is really nice and has a good and accepting attitude towards gays?

"Because the Russians haven't arrested anybody doesn't mean that they can't or won't."

I'm not saying what they can't or won't do - just what they have done. I'm trying not to speculate and pick a best or worst case scenario - just to say what is actually happening, who is being charged, etc.

It's possible to pick on any law in any country and to abuse it, particularly when its as broad-brush as this is - there are similar "moral torpitude" laws in the US, despite what has been claimed, and there were similar laws in the UK (insulting behaviour, although this law has recently been changed). All are open to abuse at every level, and the proof is in how they are applied. At the moment the anti-Putin lobby are picking a worst-case scenario and saying that is how it will be applied, but so far there is nothing to support this.

"You mentioned a number of points, but didn't mentioned what happens if you have done a number of them in tandem."

I'm not sure what you mean by doing things in tandem - if you mean wearing a rainbow pin, and a wedding dress, and dressing like Johnny Weir (difficult to picture that with the wedding dress!) with rainbow nail varnish and waving a rainbow flag, then I think you'd probably stop the traffic but I doubt if you'd get arrested no matter how hard you try - some gay activists have tried and so far none have been arrested unless they start waving placards or handing out literature.

"You seem to want us to think that this really isn't happening ...."

No, I'm not saying this isn't really happening - far from it, and I've said that several times.

It's happening and its bad news for Russian gays. Very bad news. It's a bad law, it's counter-productive and it doesn't achieve anything for anybody.

Nobody gains from it and everybody loses:

Putin doesn't need any more support from the Orthodox/traditional right - he couldn't get any more, they already think he's a "gift from God"; he doesn't need to "scapegoat" the gays for anything as nobody's blaming them for anything liked they blamed the Jews in Russia and in Germany - there's no comparison; he doesn't need to drum up hate to get political support - nobody in any party supports the gays. He simply doesn't stand to gain anything that he hasn't already got.

The gays obviously lose more than anybody - instead of just being left alone to let things change quietly, as has happened over decades in the West, they have been thrust into the spotlight and become the target for every nutter and neo-Nazi around (and there are plenty around).

Russians generally lose - they are now seen by the West, rightly or wrongly, as uncivilised, outdated bigots.

The West loses, as does the world - Russia and the West are being polarised just when they need to act together in the Middle east and elsewhere. Russia is not the power it once was, but it still has a lot of influence in certain areas and together with the West it may be possible to get some peace settlements. Any possibility of the West and Russia working together now looks a long way away.

"The Russian gov't is really nice and has a good and accepting attitude towards gays?"

The Russian government isn't really nice, and it has a bad attitude to gays - unfortunately, like most governments, it represents the electorate and that's their attitude. The government attitude wasn't too bad in the 1990's when homosexuality was decriminalised and nobody really noticed or cared about gays, but when people started to notice (and I won't go into why again) they started to care and so did the government. Newton's third law.

".... all these people are just making it up."

Depends on what "it" is:

the homophobia - no, that's all too real

the law - no, that's all too real too

the way the law will be applied - we'll have to wait and see. So far it hasn't been as its painted, LGBT rights are still being debated on state TV, and Nick Symmonds was allowed to speak out and aired without being censored

Putin's responsibility - 'fraid so. Putin has a lot of enemies, particularly in the West, as does Russia, and this is an ideal opportunity for them to have a go at him and Russia generally. He didn't start any of this, he doesn't stand to gain anything from it, but he's getting any and all of the blame. I'm not defending him, just saying that the blame is misplaced. Yes, he could stop it if he wanted to but why should he? He's a politician. Unlike politicians in the West, where "liberal" and "tolerant" votes count, they don't in Russia so he's simply ignoring it; if he did anything he would lose votes. He's not a human rights activist or supporter - few politicians are, unless it wins them votes, and none of them get to be a President. He's simply doing what any politician does - except unlike most in the West he's at least being consistent.

I'm not saying whether Putin's a nice guy or not - that's irrelevant and to me he's simply a politician doing what politicians do.

What I'm saying is we need to look at what's happening and address the human rights/gay rights issue, not any political/regime change issue. We need to listen to what the Russian gays want, not what we think they should have - and that's not a boycott of Sochi and Russia and mass protests, which is what's being suggested by the Western "activists".

[Credo]

You can post a lot of words, but in the end, you are supporting the repression and discrimination of gays. A very sad commentary, I might add.

[Jingthing]

What the Russian gays want for Sochi has been misrepresented here as if there is a clear and consistent message from them. There has not.

Don't be deceived here by those with an obvious anti-activist, Putin apologist bias.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[LeCharivari]

You can post a lot of words, but in the end, you are supporting the repression and discrimination of gays. A very sad commentary, I might add.

What I find sad is forgetting that gay and human rights are the priority and concentrating instead on a totally different target - Putin.

If Putin were to be killed in an accident tomorrow would anything change for Russian gays? No.

Would his replacement be any better, and do those who are so set against Putin have any idea who would take over? I doubt it.

Do they care? I doubt that too.

The prejudice and homophobia would still be there, the laws would be unchanged as another politician would take his place, and there would still be no political support for gays.

Concentrating on Putin is NOT the answer, however those with a purely political agenda want to hijack the gay rights issue for their own purpose.

[LeCharivari]

While the message from Russian gays has not been consistent as to what they do want, it has been consistent about what they DON'T want:

they don't want Sochi boycotted or moved

they don't want foreign activist interference except on their terms

Anyone who claims otherwise is, of course, welcome to post links to support their claims as, of course, they are welcome to keep up the personal abuse.

[Credo]

The message from most of the Western countries has been consistent on this law. The propaganda law is a sad commentary on Russia and the gov't should have the courtesy to suspend it or at least has a modicum of respect for the lives of those attending.

Your support for Putin and his support for the law are a sad commentary on both you as a gay person and him as a 'leader' of a nation.

[JUDAS]

The message from most of the Western countries has been consistent on this law. The propaganda law is a sad commentary on Russia and the gov't should have the courtesy to suspend it or at least has a modicum of respect for the lives of those attending.

Your support for Putin and his support for the law are a sad commentary on both you as a gay person and him as a 'leader' of a nation.

As someone who has read this thread and the other in the gay forum in their entirety I will start by saying that the legislation recently passed in Russia is totally despicable and against all norms in regards to human rights.

Having said that I have not read a single post were anyone has voiced the slightest support for that legislation or support for Putin in general ( which is not the topic )

[Jingthing]

My take is that I consider making excuses for (popularly called being an apologist), bending over backwards to MINIMIZE the severity of the persecution of gays represented in the new laws, energetic rationalization, bizarrely immoral blame of Russian gay activists for Putin's actions ... all a degree of SUPPORT. Read between the lines.

[Jingthing]

... The problem was in the gays themselves, like Mr Alexeev, a provocateur who discredited the gay movement in Russia by his deeds.

You are a valued contributor here, being Russian. So I think you just placed BLAME on Mr. Alexeev (and "the gays") which I interpret as some kind of excuse for the wave of anti-gay oppression in Russia. Please tell us in your opinion what Mr. Alexeev did that was so horribly wrong that millions of Russian gays must pay for that now. The more detail you can provide the better. Thank you.

[Jingthing]

Is There an Iron Curtain Coming for Performers?

Visas have been challenged for Madonna and Lady Gaga after they spoke out for LGBT rights during concerts.

...

If Putin doesn't change the rules, Finkelshtein told The Guardian it will "inevitably lead to the country's isolation from world culture.

And now a word from Lady Gaga:

For her part, Gaga has basically dared Russian authorities to arrest her.

"Sending bravery to LGBTs in Russia," she wrote on Facebook and Twitter earlier this month in response to the attacks on her visa. "The rise in government abuse is archaic. Hosing teenagers with pepper spray? Beatings? Mother Russia? The Russian government is criminal. Oppression will be met with revolution. Russian LGBTs you are not alone. We will fight for your freedom. Why didn't you arrest me when you had the chance, Russia? Because you didn't want answer to the world?"

http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/music/2013/08/17/there-iron-curtain-coming-performers

[sustento]

Is There an Iron Curtain Coming for Performers?

Visas have been challenged for Madonna and Lady Gaga after they spoke out for LGBT rights during concerts.

...

If Putin doesn't change the rules, Finkelshtein told The Guardian it will "inevitably lead to the country's isolation from world culture.

Putin_Gaga_400x300.jpg

And now a word from Lady Gaga:

For her part, Gaga has basically dared Russian authorities to arrest her.

"Sending bravery to LGBTs in Russia," she wrote on Facebook and Twitter earlier this month in response to the attacks on her visa. "The rise in government abuse is archaic. Hosing teenagers with pepper spray? Beatings? Mother Russia? The Russian government is criminal. Oppression will be met with revolution. Russian LGBTs you are not alone. We will fight for your freedom. Why didn't you arrest me when you had the chance, Russia? Because you didn't want answer to the world?"

http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/music/2013/08/17/there-iron-curtain-coming-performers

The article in the Advocate states:

"The request comes after Lady Gaga and Madonna used their massive concerts as a stage for promoting LBGT rights. Local authorities attempted to prosecute them under the country's so-called "propaganda" law, which bans any talk of gay people while in the presence of minors. The attempt failed with the judiciary. So instead the performers were prosecuted under a technicality in their visas."

So local authorities attempted to prosecute them using the 'propoganda law' but the Russian courts actually refused to do so.

[F430murci]

Putin has outfoxed our guy at every turn and called him a rookie after their first meeting. Will US really boycott or do anything? Very doubtful and Putin knows this. How much does US have invested here including NBC paying $775 mil for TV rights.

http://keepingscore.blogs.time.com/2013/08/13/for-sochis-sake-nbc-cant-ignore-russias-anti-gay-laws/

[LeCharivari]

The message from most of the Western countries has been consistent on this law. The propaganda law is a sad commentary on Russia and the gov't should have the courtesy to suspend it or at least has a modicum of respect for the lives of those attending.

Your support for Putin and his support for the law are a sad commentary on both you as a gay person and him as a 'leader' of a nation.

As someone who has read this thread and the other in the gay forum in their entirety I will start by saying that the legislation recently passed in Russia is totally despicable and against all norms in regards to human rights.

Having said that I have not read a single post were anyone has voiced the slightest support for that legislation or support for Putin in general ( which is not the topic )

Thank you for reading the threads - unfortunately that is something that few people do, preferring only to see what they want to see.

[NanLaew]

... The problem was in the gays themselves, like Mr Alexeev, a provocateur who discredited the gay movement in Russia by his deeds.

You are a valued contributor here, being Russian. So I think you just placed BLAME on Mr. Alexeev (and "the gays") which I interpret as some kind of excuse for the wave of anti-gay oppression in Russia. Please tell us in your opinion what Mr. Alexeev did that was so horribly wrong that millions of Russian gays must pay for that now. The more detail you can provide the better. Thank you.

Yes! Now that would indeed be much more educational than endlessly labeling any and all non-activists as Putin apologists or talking about Berlin. It would also take the thread so far off topic that a benevolent mod would just have to punt it into the Gay People in Thailand forum, close it. or both.

For the most part though, it has been a reasonable debate with respect being shown for alternate opinions. As JUDAS noted, nobody has condoned Russia's homophobic new laws, it is just that the jury is out on what should be done and by whom.

[Jingthing]

...

So local authorities attempted to prosecute them using the 'propoganda law' but the Russian courts actually refused to do so.

Proving what? We'd need a lot more details to know the legal reasons why that happened and also that tells us nothing about whether it couldn't happen in future. Not exactly SOMERSAULT inducing.

[sustento]

...

So local authorities attempted to prosecute them using the 'propoganda law' but the Russian courts actually refused to do so.

Proving what? We'd need a lot more details to know the legal reasons why that happened and also that tells us nothing about whether it couldn't happen in future. Not exactly SOMERSAULT inducing.

You seem to want lots of detail about simple facts. The courts were asked to prosecute using the propaganda law. They didn't. That's it. Finito.

As to what could happen in the future I'm no more able to tell the future than you are so any assumptions you make are as valid as mine i.e. they're not.

[Jingthing]

...

So local authorities attempted to prosecute them using the 'propoganda law' but the Russian courts actually refused to do so.

Proving what? We'd need a lot more details to know the legal reasons why that happened and also that tells us nothing about whether it couldn't happen in future. Not exactly SOMERSAULT inducing.

You seem to want lots of detail about simple facts. The courts were asked to prosecute using the propaganda law. They didn't. That's it. Finito.

As to what could happen in the future I'm no more able to tell the future than you are so any assumptions you make are as valid as mine i.e. they're not.

But the performers were still prosecuted! (See the link.) WHY? Their so called "gay propaganda" message!

[LeCharivari]

...

So local authorities attempted to prosecute them using the 'propoganda law' but the Russian courts actually refused to do so.

Proving what? We'd need a lot more details to know the legal reasons why that happened and also that tells us nothing about whether it couldn't happen in future. Not exactly SOMERSAULT inducing.

You seem to want lots of detail about simple facts. The courts were asked to prosecute using the propaganda law. They didn't. That's it. Finito.

As to what could happen in the future I'm no more able to tell the future than you are so any assumptions you make are as valid as mine i.e. they're not.

Not quite "Finito", sustento, as those "simple facts" are simply wrong.

This is just another case of never letting the "facts" get in the way of a good story:

1. Madonna toured in August 2012, Lady Gaga in December 2012. "The country's so-called "propaganda" law" was signed into law on 30 June 2013 and obviously did not exist at the time of their concerts.

2. "Local authorities" never "attempted to prosecute them" under the local law either - the attempted prosecutions were filed privately (by Vitaly Molonov, a City Council member) and were both rejected by the St Petersburg Court on the grounds that they had not broken the law .

3. The "technicality" is that they were both in Russia on "cultural exchange visas" which did not allow them to profit from their visit, rather than work permits which would have done.

4. There haven't been any prosecutions for the visa breach, just a private complaint from Vitaly Molonov (again) to the Foreign Ministry.

http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/music/2013/08/17/there-iron-curtain-coming-performers

http://www.examiner.com/article/russian-officials-considering-prosecution-against-lady-gaga-and-madonna

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20130801/182532300.html

http://blog.wenn.com/all-news/st-petersburg-city-official-calls-for-madonnas-prosecution/

[LeCharivari]

(edited)

I honestly can't begin to understand why Stephen Fry, whom I enjoy and admire greatly, chose this latter argument as the linchpin of his recent (first draft?) open letter to David Cameron and the IOC here, now since heavily redacted to remove these offences to sensibilities here.

Bear in mind that Stephen Fry suffers from bipolar disorder and is a manic depressive, self-confessed self hating Jew, etc and that he attempted suicide while filming the "Gay Cure" series in America last year - all things that he has been very open about as President of "Mind" and in his documentaries.

He has also since completely revised his views - not of the Jews, etc, but of moving the Olympics, now tweeting rather tamely “I was merely floating an idea. If Russian LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender] people disagree, I accede.Let’s find another way of making our point.”

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/stephen-fry-hits-out-at-russian-tweeters-over-antigay-law-8757492.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/10102024/Stephen-Fry-I-attempted-to-kill-myself-in-2012.html

[Jingthing]

These are the early days yet. There is communication going on internationally. All kinds of balloon floating. And IT IS NOT OVER! There are no official leaders of gay activism in Russia or internationally, as if they are heads of state. Doesn't exist. This process is by necessity MESSY. Early ideas of boycotting were part of the process. Totally appropriate to consider and discuss.

What's going on now with so many diverse ideas being introduced appears entirely healthy and natural. Whether it results in a coherent and effective tactical plan is not something I would bet much money on, but at least people seem to be trying.

I find quite distasteful (and revealing) the unjust character assassination of a such a worthy man, Stephen Fry. The shameless dirt slinging about "self hating Jew" and his MEDICAL ISSUES are so inflammatory and so IRRELEVANT that it does not dignify any kind of reply.It kind of reminds me of an American presidential election campaign.

Dudes, if you don't agree with Stephen Fry ... fine.

It is so cheap to attack this man so personally.

Folks in the peanut gallery, don't kid yourself that the anti-activist ("Putin isn't all that bad") agenda here is being argued as an "objective" "facts" based debate in some purist innocent apolitical way.

[Jingthing]

Germany and Denmark go on record in opposition to Russia's anti-gay laws:

Crown Prince of Denmark, Prince Frederik who is the Olympic Committee’s representative for Denmark has also added his voice to the debate and warned Russia that they are acting contrary to the Olympic Charter and Russia must not partake in discrimination against any minority group

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/15/danish-government-warns-russia-over-anti-gay-law/

[Jingthing]

The plot thickens. Something for the heterosexual men:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/08/18/kseniya_ryzhova_and_tatyana_firova_russian_athletes_kiss_on_winners_podium.html

Just a victory kiss or a protest kiss?

You decide.

At the World Athletics Championships in Moscow, August 17.

Anyone who actually believes there isn't going to be ALL kinds of visible protest (ambiguous and not ambiguous) against Putin's anti-gay policies at Sochi, I've got a bridge to sell you.

BTW, it is STILL possible for the games to be moved to Vancouver.

[Publicus]

(edited)

Yes, you need to know more. Some facts, for instance.

I think we ALL need to know more, and we would ALL do well to consider the facts, particularly if something we say is factually incorrect.

A few facts, all of which I can verify and some of which I have given links to, and all of which are relevant to the law and the Winter Olympics, are as follows:

No one has ever been charged in Russia just for wearing a rainbow pin 1, or waving a rainbow flag.

No one has ever been charged in Russia just for the clothes they wear, 2 including gays who have attended rallies deliberately wearing wedding dresses to provoke such a reaction.

All male ice dancers, gay or straight, including Russians, wear clothing similar to that ascribed to Johnny Weir. 3 His costumes are completely "normal" by those standards.

The "propaganda" law is considerably less "vague" than a number of laws in the USA involving "moral turpitude" 4 , which even extends to acts done in private which constitute "conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty or good morals."

A number of athletes competing at the IAAF World Championships in Moscow have already competed wearing rainbow nail polish 5 - no action was taken by the Russian authorities, and although the IAAF gave athletes a general warning of the rules they were allowed to compete wearing it.

After winning silver in the 800m at the IAAF World Championships Nick Symmonds did speak out in an uncensored televised interview on RIA Novosti saying: 6 "I believe that all humans deserve equality as however God made them ... Whether you're gay, straight, black, white, we all deserve the same rights." RIA Novosti is the Russian Information Agency, Russia's largest news agency, fully state owned. He was not arrested or jailed.

LGBT rights issues are regularly discussed in the Russian media and on Russian state TV and have been broadcast state wide at prime time 7

No main Russian LGBT groups I am aware of, such as the Russian LGBT Network or the LGBT Human Rights Project/Gayrussia.ru have asked for the games to be boycotted or moved, and many of the most prominent Russian gay activists such as Anton Krasovsky have come out in the strongest terms against a boycott of the Sochi games 8 :

"Russian gay people need international support, but international support is not a boycott of Sochi Olympic games, because Olympic games is an international event. It's not a Russian event, it's not a personal event of Putin, it's an event of millions and millions of people ... 7 million people in Russia are gay. If you want to boycott Olympic games in Russia, you're trying to boycott 7 million gay people in Russia. You want to boycott me."

1 & 2 Sorry, I can't provide links to something that hasn't happened - if it had I think there would be some; some wearing rainbow items have been charged under public order acts for illegal demonstrations, but none for the items worn/carried

3 http://www.cbc.ca/sports-content/figureskating/opinion/2012/12/even-great-skaters-make-puzzling-costume-decisions.html

4 http://www.answers.com/topic/moral-turpitude?cat=biz-fin

5 http://www.thelocal.se/49682/20130816/

6 http://en.rian.ru/sports/20130813/182748399/In-Russia-American-Runner-Dedicates-Silver-Medal-to-Gay-Friends.html

7 http://www.ntv.ru/peredacha/

8 http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/15/anton-krasovsky-russian-tv-presenter-sacked-after-coming-out-as-gay-on-air_n_3760386.html

No opinions, no "bashing", just plain old facts

The facts are the Russian Government is threatening to arrest Olympic Games athletes, coaches, trainers, other staff, visitors-spectators, and media to put them in jail.

The threats are based on a new law against anything the Russian authorities would consider to be "gay propaganda" by anyone in Russia, anywhere in Russia, anytime, to include the whole of the visiting global athletic community which is going to Sochi Russia for the Winter Olympic Games in February.

Those are the facts.

It is also fact global news media are reporting this is the first known instance of a host government of an Olympic Games threatening - openly and menacingly - to throw in jail Olympic athletes and staff, visitors-spectators, media.

It appears to be shaping up as solid fact that the Russian Government is the worst host government of an Olympic Games in the history of the Modern Olympiad, which began in 1896.

Posts that assert none of the above have been arrested or incarcerated are insignificant tripe, I.e., facts that are not salient. They are off the core, central points made in this post.

Moreover the post above is irrelevant and immaterial to the fact no other host government of the Olympic Games has threatened to throw in jail, en masse if it decides, Olympic athletes and staff, visitors and media.

In short, the above post ignores the central fact the Russian Government is being run by a bunch of lunatics. That's fact.

[Publicus]

The message from most of the Western countries has been consistent on this law. The propaganda law is a sad commentary on Russia and the gov't should have the courtesy to suspend it or at least has a modicum of respect for the lives of those attending.

Your support for Putin and his support for the law are a sad commentary on both you as a gay person and him as a 'leader' of a nation.

Rasputin

[Scott]

A troll post and reply have been deleted. If you have nothing to say, then please do us the courtesy of not posting.

[pxlgirl]

can anybody explain to me <deleted> is this ominous "gay propaganda" supposed to be? I just don't get it, but maybe it's just me?

[Jingthing]

can anybody explain to me <deleted> is this ominous "gay propaganda" supposed to be? I just don't get it, but maybe it's just me?

Whatever the authorities say it means.

For example, signs saying "Gay Is Normal"

[pxlgirl]

yeah... so what's the threat of saying "gay is normal"?? Like, it's contagious and when ppl hear it they will get the gay? Uh... what a bunch of backward morons!