Fake music police - Mae Rim

[misterkeeperofthereef]

Last week at about 9.00pm The 6 people from the so called music police came to the premisis and took a laptop that was located in the kitchen and informed the owner that was sitting alone and no customers in the shop .they were illegally playing music licenced by Grammy . They took the owner to the police department and used intimidation to extort 25,000 balt from her or they were going to throw her in jail . The police really had no hands on dealing with the accused but were used as a intimidation factor . The Female representing the Grammy company , took the 25000balt and issued no receipt. The leader of the group was a 35 year old Thai male that spoke english and thai and was rather convincing. I could not get anyone to show proper identification and they got upset when i wanted to take a picture of them. Well surprise , I had videod them on a HD webcam and will be posting the video to youtube after the proper athourities have made positive identification of the people involved .

Good luck to the people involved . Seee you on youtube soon.

[Dante99]

"They took the owner to the police department and used intimidation to extort 25,000 balt from her or they were going to throw her in jail . The police really had no hands on dealing with the accused but were used as a intimidation factor ."

Is it correct that the police were ready to throw her in jail?

Did the police say that?

Or was it the Fake Music Police talking about jail and the police just sitting mute?

The Fake Music Police seem bold going to the police station if they are really fake unless the police were in on the take. Did you get photos of the police too?

[mania]

What you should do is get a copy to the Channel 3 Thai News

They have been showing a lot of various scams/thefts/robberies/monks gone bad etc. caught on video type deals this last year.

They may be interested & air it.

But be careful of after effects

[Gsxrnz]

Happens in many bars in Patts/Jomtien. They even give a little certificate of donation, even has an expiry date.

The first stop the scammers make is at the local BIB office to let them know they're operating in the area. PC's are confiscated and the BIB act as intermediaries. Of course, the BIB get their cut. Local rumour is 30-50%, depends on how scared the "perpetrator" is or how foolish they are. Have heard of it being north of 50k on a few occasions. 20-30k seems the norm though.

It's usually the bar owners Thai wife that does the negotiating. Sometimes it's a trusted Thai friend or staff member. Not unheard of for the negotiator to take a slice of the pie as well.

Or even better - one guy gets it negotiated down to 20k and gets a phone call from wife to bring the money. He gives a new staff member the money to go to the cop shop and pay the music police and get the PC. Staff member got permanently lost on the way...............TIT !.

[slapout]

I thought the CM police assured us this problem group had left town???? Is this a new crew or is this the old crew with a new haircut?? If its the latter, they laid low for a few weeks and go back into their chosen profession, scamming.

Certainly gives you faith in the system that was intended to protect the honest people of the country. Not

[misterkeeperofthereef]

I thought the CM police assured us this problem group had left town???? Is this a new crew or is this the old crew with a new haircut?? If its the latter, they laid low for a few weeks and go back into their chosen profession, scamming.

Certainly gives you faith in the system that was intended to protect the honest people of the country. Not

Yeah , makes you wonder. When they take from honest people just trying to suport there familiy in a legal manor . No wonder so many thai's end up selling yaba and ice . It's much more lucrative than selling pati and somtam and spirits where you have overhead .

Two of the people have been identified The fat girl from Grammy and The English speaking well dressed Thai who organized the scam. I was able to get the licence numbers from two of the autos used as well, just have to find someone to run the plates for identification.

[bartender100]

Bar owners need to get a music licence from these people, they issue a certificate and tell you what to do in the event the music police turn up

http://www.mpcmusic.co.th/en/index.php?menu=companies_thai

About B15,000 a year for a regular bar

[Gonzo the Face]

Here is the link going back a few months ago and it will give the OP new insight to the history of this type of scam.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/620981-just-hit-by-the-music-scammers-but-for-them-it-was-a-flop/page-8?hl=%2Bmusic+%2Bpolice#entry6222752

OP'er I would suggest that you give Pim a call ..... She is the owner of City Life and appears to be on some type of National Board re scams and corruption into things like this.... I think your contacting her would be a big help to your friends and all concerned.

It was the moving factor in getting the group arrested last time around.

[CMKiwi]

Hope you get these a%#$holes as Mae Rim is is trying to grow and any money extorted does not help locals. The Mae Rim plaza is relatively new and growing with new shops opening daily. Im a bit annoyed if the local Police are in on this as so far Ive found them to be a good bunch of guys. My girlfriend is looking at opening a shop there soon and I certainly dont want this happening to her, but then she will ensure that she has all the proper licences prior to start up.

[CMKiwi]

Would this (Having a licence) also apply if you have a smart TV with internet connection at a shop? Interesting..... as you could log onto You Tube and play music videos on the TV.

As one has to pay a fee to the satellite provider or internet provider then surely (?) you should be ok. Or is the argument going to be that the fee you pay is for private household and not commercial (Public) viewing?

But as has been said....I too smell a scam

[Ulysses G.]

The Fake Music Police seem bold going to the police station if they are really fake unless the police were in on the take. Did you get photos of the police too?[/font

The scammers have been working with the regular police for many years. Gonzo is right. The OP should contact Pim at Citylife and put a stop to this before it gets going again.

[FolkGuitar]

........SNIP....... My girlfriend is looking at opening a shop there soon and I certainly dont want this happening to her, but then she will ensure that she has all the proper licences prior to start up.

One can never have all the 'right' licenses when these guys operate. When I had my business in Chiang Mai, they sold me a 'playing the radio' license, 'hanging pictures on the wall' license, and a 'special lighting' license. But it was one license at a time, separated by a year or two, and as each was only 500 baht, I just chalked it up to 'cost of doing business in Thailand.'

[Ulysses G.]

There is no "right" licence. They are con artists and will always find something to "fine" you for. The best thing to do is tell them that you will see them in court and refuse to let them confiscate your property. However, they try to scare you into "settling" right away and make it very difficult to refuse.

[monty]

Bar owners need to get a music licence from these people, they issue a certificate and tell you what to do in the event the music police turn up

http://www.mpcmusic.co.th/en/index.php?menu=companies_thai

About B15,000 a year for a regular bar

This company only covers 85% of the Western music along with Thai music recorded with Universal Thailand, Warner music Thailand and Sony Music.

The remaining 15% Western music is spread over another 2 or three companies, each issuing their own licenses.

The majority of Thai music is recorded with RS and Gmm Grammy, also each issuing their own licenses.

[monty]

Would this (Having a licence) also apply if you have a smart TV with internet connection at a shop? Interesting..... as you could log onto You Tube and play music videos on the TV.

As one has to pay a fee to the satellite provider or internet provider then surely (?) you should be ok. Or is the argument going to be that the fee you pay is for private household and not commercial (Public) viewing?

But as has been said....I too smell a scam

Your internet provider does not include any license fees. You are not allowed to play anything in a public place without having a proper license for it.

The exception is if you have a subscription with a satellite or cable TV provider specifically for use in Public places.

Truevisons always had commercial/public licensing fees (mostly used in big hotels and hospitals), but for some reason never minded installing systems in bars and restaurants with a simple household subscription!

The new kid on the block, CTH, which carries the EPL for the next 3 years, will not install their systems in a public place, unless you take a subscription for public showing. Prices range from 1500 Baht for a screen under 32" size, up to 5,000 Baht/month for a projector. So a fair bit more expensive then the "home" subscription.

[realthaideal]

Straight-up robbery. Sucks. Not even a scam - It's heavy-handed thuggery taking from those who can least afford it. Needs to go away.

[Beetlejuice]

My questions are: are these people imposters or really working on behalf of the media companies with the authority to fine offenders?

If these groups are imposters and scamming people, then legally the business owners can tell them to get lost along with the police. Or is it that many of these business owners are using Thais to front their businesses, trading illegally, have no work permits and for these reasons are seen as being ripe for exploitation and intimidation? This what I believe is mostly the case, so it`s really scammers Vs illegally owned businesses.

May the best man win.

[monty]

In general, you can get busted for breaching copyright laws. But to get legally caught, it will have to happen following the law. The scammers don't even come near the legal procedure of busting a place for copyright infringements.

There are a few things very early in the busting process you (or your Thai staff) have to check, which will weed out the scammers in no time. Unfortunately it'll have to be a strong hearted person to do this, a person not intimidated by the scare tactics used by the scammers. Preferably backed up by witnesses or a decent quality CCTV system WITH sound recording. Or a video camera/ mobile phone camera recording their actions.

To be a legal bust, below procedure needed to be followed:

- The copyright owner has to have filed a complaint with the police (or can do it on the spot if police is present during the bust).

- The person filing the complaint has to be properly authorized by the copyright owner. Basically meaning that the company (MPC music for example) needs to give a Power Of Attorney to somebody (usually an employee) to be allowed to file a complain. So the POA has to be there along with the person filing the complaint (with ID of course). The POA cannot be expired!

- The complaint needs a specific song/author of which it is claimed copyrights are being breached.

- There must be a police officer taking part in the apprehension and accusation.

So in short they immediately on the spot have to tell you which company they work for, exactly which song it is you have been playing of which they own the rights, and they have to back it up with a proper POA and the Identification papers of the person authorized on this POA to do the bust.

[monty]

Apparently, they do need full search warrant signed by a court to be allowed to search your premises.

From the website of the department of intellectual property:

LEGAL RIGHTS OF BUSINESS OPERATORS The legal rights of the business operators are as follow:
(1) In cases of criminal charges, the business operator has the legal right to request the examination of various documents relating to any actions which may affect his/her rights and freedom.
(2) The search of public places must obtain an order or a warrant from the court to be shown prior to the search.
(3) The evidence in the copyright violation cases which are seized or withhold must be tools or equipments used in the violation only, such as computers to record the pirated songs.
(4) In cases of becoming an offender, the rights are as follow;
a. Rights to meet and consult the to-be-attorney one on one
b. Rights to receive visits as appropriate
c. Rights to receive medical care expeditiously for sick symptoms
d. Rights to know the allegation on the violated actions as every person is equal under the law and is equally protected under law without discrimination.
(5) The bail for the offender must be accompanied by guarantees, such as land title, property, cash, or government officials with C6 ranking or above. In this respect, the Cabinet has decided, on 1 July 2003, that all government officials are to be prohibited from bailing any offenders in intellectual property cases.

In English :http://www.ipthailand.go.th/ipthailand/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=957&Itemid=229〈=en

In Thai: http://www.ipthailand.go.th/ipthailand/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=957&Itemid=229〈=th

Print out the Thai version, highlight point 2, and stick under their nose, along with having the knowledge of all the other things required.They will not have a search warrant, until they have they are not allowed to remove any of your equipment.

Call the cops. Really! Or even better, a friendly journalist willing to come over immediately to witness the raid!

[Chicog]

Does CTH have radio stations as well as TV? Because if it does, play your music from your licensed satellite box, and then if these scum turn up you can tell them to f--- off and take it up with CTH, which of course they won't do.

[Chiengmaijoe]

Does CTH have radio stations as well as TV? Because if it does, play your music from your licensed satellite box, and then if these scum turn up you can tell them to f--- off and take it up with CTH, which of course they won't do.

Not vey good or well-informed advice. Just like any radio station in the world, liistening to it is for home, personal use. Having a BBC licence wouldn't entitle you to play it in public. In fact, some small stores in the

UK were fined because the staff used their own radio to listen to at work. That is regarded as a public place, so requires a licence. It's not really relevant here anyway, because these guys aren't legit. As aggressive as they may appear and despite the fact that they may have police back- up you just need to simply ignore them , refuse to go to any police station, and if you know one, call a real cop. They will leave eventually. They succeed only because people are intimidated, and don't know their rights.

[PoodMaiDai]

Someone just put an end to these thugs already, Thai style.

[bobl]

Having owned a small hotel & Irish Pub in Africa I've seen this scam and all the others, many times over. Too many times.

This is one reason I am unlikely ever to open a pub here, I lost my tolerance for these people, I wouldn't trust myself not to get into serious trouble were they unfortunate enough to set foot in my bar.

[CMKiwi]

Some good info and advice Monty. I will pass htis onto the GF and ensure she has a laminated copy in her shop at all times. Id love to be there should these a-holes ever turn up but as bobl said....I wouldnt trust myself not to get into serious trouble!

Im also aware that some Thai's can be a jealous lot. Other business owners can be very devious should they see your business as a threat to theirs. Its not uncommon for them to 'dob you in' to what ever authority they see fit in order to cause you grief and make your business harder to operate. I suppose the biggest thing is to have your 'ducks in a row' and be prepared for any of these scams.

Like was said, stand your ground in the fact that you have the correct knowledge.

[mania]

You should have your own fake license/certificate made up

approved by Grammy/BMI etc & hang it on the wall.

If these goons come around tell them not only do you have the

"Official" license bought from Grammy but Grammy also warned you many

crooks are posing as their representatives & is offering a large reward for anyone

supplying them with pictures & names of these goons

Then get your camera out & ask their names & to see ID's etc

[Beetlejuice]

I thought the CM police assured us this problem group had left town???? Is this a new crew or is this the old crew with a new haircut?? If its the latter, they laid low for a few weeks and go back into their chosen profession, scamming.

Certainly gives you faith in the system that was intended to protect the honest people of the country. Not

Yeah , makes you wonder. When they take from honest people just trying to suport there familiy in a legal manor . No wonder so many thai's end up selling yaba and ice . It's much more lucrative than selling pati and somtam and spirits where you have overhead .

Two of the people have been identified The fat girl from Grammy and The English speaking well dressed Thai who organized the scam. I was able to get the licence numbers from two of the autos used as well, just have to find someone to run the plates for identification.

None of this makes any sense.

6 people turn up unannounced at a business. What sort of business is it? A bar, a restaurant or what? Who actually owns it?

They walk into a kitchen and steal a laptop computer. Then these people who refuse to show any identification or clarification of whom and what they represent, take the owner to a police station, which in my book, unless officially arrested and have the powers to arrest, amounts to kidnapping.

Meanwhile while at the police station the police do nothing, except threaten to throw the so-called female owner in jail, and the said woman asks for 25000 baht (for god knows what?) and the alleged owner pays without question and without acquiring a receipt. Doesn’t even make a request for a lawyer to be present.

The OP alleges that the owner, who was sitting alone, no customers in the shop of whatever business this is, had to deal with it. But these people said; THEY were illegally playing music licensed by Grammy, according to the OP`s statement? Who are THEY? And what is the OP`s part in this? Because the OP stated that he could not obtain any identification from these people, which means he must have been on the scene. So how could the owner have been alone with no customers in the shop, unless the owner and the OP are one of the same or he was there at the time? If the OP was on the scene, in what capacity was he there for? And why is he involved?

The police are alleged to have threatened to throw the owner (whoever the real owner is?) in jail. Throw into jail for what, why and on whose authority?

So to place all this into perspective, 6 thugs walk into a business premises, steal a computer, kidnap the owner who was allegedly alone and then taken to a police station, threatened with instant jail if she does not pay 25000 baht to some unknown woman who has no evidence that a criminal act has been committed, and pays without having a lawyer present, without receiving a receipt and nothing is officially recorded.

If I were a legitimate business owner and had not committed any offence, and 6 people walked in, stole my computer and tried to take me away somewhere with them, I would be calling the police saying that I am under attack from unknown intruders or even put up a hell of a struggle before I went off with them. Anybody in their right minds would do the same if suddenly finding themselves in that situation, unless there is something extremely dodgy going on.

Sorry, but I really can’t swallow this story.

The OP does paint a sordid picture of the BiB and I simply don`t believe it. Perhaps these so-called music police are the genuine article and the said business owner (will the real owner stand up please?) really did commit an offence, and if this business has a farang financial backer but not in name, than he has no authority or power to officially represent the business. THIS IS THE LAW. If this is the case? Anyone or certain people that take matters into their own hands and try to bypass going via official channels to have this sorted, will find themselves in a lot of trouble, well in the do dars right over their heads.

If you seriously believe that publishing a video on Utube is going to scare these people off and solve the problem, than you’re living in cloud cuckoo land. Plus keeping in mind Thailand`s strict defamation laws, so you had better have your facts right before you upload any videos.

My advice is; first get your house in order, then hold a meeting with the police by appointment and negotiate how to solve this problem with them. You will be pleasantly surprised how accommodating and helpful the police can be if the correct procedures are followed. Otherwise these so-called business owners will always be ripe for intimidation and extortion. And quite frankly, I have no sympathies at all.

May the force be with you.

[mania]

Perhaps these so-called music police are the genuine article

While I agree the story has some weird aspects to it.

In no way would I think these folks are genuine

They just do not present themselves as such not to mention

I am not sure such folks would even have any jurisdiction here.

They definitely could not walk about like bounty hunters grabbing property & people off the street

& transporting them to justice.

[Beetlejuice]

Perhaps these so-called music police are the genuine article

While I agree the story has some weird aspects to it.

In no way would I think these folks are genuine

They just do not present themselves as such not to mention

I am not sure such folks would even have any jurisdiction here.

They definitely could not walk about like bounty hunters grabbing property & people off the street

& transporting them to justice.

I am only saying that although unlikely, it is possible that these thugs are genuine legal representatives of some media companies, but of course without seeing any ID, no one knows for sure, we can only assume that they are trolls and gangsters.

As for the rest, my statements still stand. This story is not credible or there is much more to this than what has been described in the OP?

[Chiengmaijoe]

A genuine licence for practically all the music you are likely to play would be 10,000 b per year for most places mentioned here. If you're not playing Thai music you're almost certainly covered. if you look at the FAQ page you can see that playing any music in public, including from a radio or TV requires a licence. BTW, not playing or having Thai music in the bar/restaurant would also get rid of these guys because they are invariably pretending to represent a company that only has rights to Thai artists.

http://www.mpcmusic.co.th/en/index.php?menu=tariff

[Gonzo the Face]

The secret signal light is pulsing........ SAO JIANG MAI........ SAO JIANG MAI...... are you out there......

Looks like it time for the caped crusader to put on your feathery mask and fluffy boa and swoop into action.

Come on Ooooo Caped One, tell us you are on the trail......