The Men Who Made Us Thin -- excellent tv show from the U.K.

[Jingthing]

I highly recommend this show to all people with a personal interest in obesity and overweight. It is very enlightening.

It is in four parts. Here is part one. You can then follow the links to the remaining parts if you find the content interesting.You can also check other sources. I reckon some people will indeed find the content interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-_LoAm_etU

Part 1: In the first of this four-part series, Jacques examines the scientific reasons why so many diets fail long-term and why - in spite of this failure - we go back to them again and again.

Part 2: In the second of this four-part series, Jacques Peretti charts the story of the fitness industry and examines the links between exercise and weight loss. He speaks to the former Global Head of Health at PepsiCo and asks why the food industry puts so much money into promoting exercise.

Part 3: Jacques Peretti continues his examination of the weight-loss industry and discovers how the World Health Organisation's recognition of obesity as an epidemic provided millions of new customers for the industry. He also explores some of the latest developments in bariatric surgery and asks how far these trends will go.

Part 4: Examination of the weight-loss industry. Jacques Peretti asks why the world's population continues to get fatter, despite the billions that are spent on weight loss every year.

Cheers.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Jingthing

[Darren McKenzie]

I watched all of this video and I'd like to thank the OP for sharing.

The idea that "obesity" was formulated by an actuary several decades ago is really interesting.

[Jingthing]

I watched all of this video and I'd like to thank the OP for sharing. 

 

The idea that "obesity" was formulated by an actuary several decades ago is really interesting. 

Thanks. There are three more parts.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jingthing]

Oh, heck, here's the rest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltVHDWD5CUM

The video below presents the controversy about people with BMI over 25 to 27 I mentioned before.

Generally today that level is labelled the beginning of overweight and also significant health risk.

BUT -- is it REALLY?

This I think is very significant. If it's really true such people (BMI over 25 to 27) are not really in health risk and this category includes so many people in the world, why are those people being labeled falsely? Who benefits? Not them I think.

To view that section start at about minute 7 on ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERrd8cEtwBk

Here is part 4:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1uaHTh7iVs

[Darren McKenzie]

Thanks JT. I'll watch them, but probably not all tonight!

Did you see the bit in the first part when a bunch of guys were isolated and restricted to a 1500 calorie-per-day diet? That was back in the 1940s. And one guy got so stressed that he cut off three of his fingers.

Interesting too is how the diet industry knows this is all a big con.

1. People have been told that they are obese.

2. People read the latest diet book. The book is a "miracle cure".

2. People experience a high when they begin to lose weight.

3. People feel great.

4. And then people lapse.

5. And then people put on weight and end up fatter than they were before.

And at that point, the diet industry publishes a new "miracle diet".

[manarak]

The video below presents the controversy about people with BMI over 25 to 27 I mentioned before.

Generally today that level is labelled the beginning of overweight and also significant health risk.

BUT -- is it REALLY?

probably not a significant health risk. 50% increase of a tiny risk is still a tiny risk.

the problem is that people in this BMI range look unattractive, this causes real problems.

[Jingthing]

The video below presents the controversy about people with BMI over 25 to 27 I mentioned before.

Generally today that level is labelled the beginning of overweight and also significant health risk.

BUT -- is it REALLY?

probably not a significant health risk. 50% increase of a tiny risk is still a tiny risk.

the problem is that people in this BMI range look unattractive, this causes real problems.

I just watched that episode again, towards the end. There was actually a strong case made that statistically people who are mildly now labeled overweight have a slightly SMALLER health risk than under BMI 25 people. I know that goes against what we have been fed and is potentially mind blowing, but if that's ultimately what the science says, does that make it wrong just because it is currently surprising? Shall under BMI 25 people now gain some weight for that small benefit? Of course not.

There is actually a continuing controversy over that assertion, that mildly overweight people (not obese) are actually in better shape as far as health.

Your 50 percent number -- clearly you just pulled that out of a hat.

As far as appearance I think that is very individual. I am sure plenty of people with BMI 25 to 27 look extremely attractive. Of course there are social and cultural factors in that as well, including even just fashion.

But bringing up fashion and vanity isn't irrelevant either. I think when talking about weight loss aspirations, it is important to look at the health motivations and the vanity motivations.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Jingthing

[manarak]

The video below presents the controversy about people with BMI over 25 to 27 I mentioned before.

Generally today that level is labelled the beginning of overweight and also significant health risk.

BUT -- is it REALLY?

probably not a significant health risk. 50% increase of a tiny risk is still a tiny risk.

the problem is that people in this BMI range look unattractive, this causes real problems.

I just watched that episode again, towards the end. There was actually a strong case made that statistically people who are mildly now labeled overweight have a slightly SMALLER health risk than under BMI 25 people. I know that goes against what we have been fed and is potentially mind blowing, but if that's ultimately what the science says, does that make it wrong just because it is currently surprising? Shall under BMI 25 people now gain some weight for that small benefit? Of course not.

There is actually a continuing controversy over that assertion, that mildly overweight people (not obese) are actually in better shape as far as health.

Your 50 percent number -- clearly you just pulled that out of a hat.

As far as appearance I think that is very individual. I am sure plenty of people with BMI 25 to 27 look extremely attractive. Of course there are social and cultural factors in that as well, including even just fashion.

yes, I made up the 50%. the point was not the figure, but the fact that the risk is tiny. and 50% bigger than tiny is still tiny.

then, 25 to 27 BMI people... I know some people like it big, but I think the fit get the most favors.

I'll make a wild guess, but I think many men in the 25-27 category are "belly" people, i.e. beer belly - which is not known for being a health risk.

Edited September 4, 2013 by manarak

[robblok]

I will counter this program as it is clearly aimed at giving obese people reasons not to do a thing.

- first of acting like it was a big conspiracy while it was based on fact

So they start off with saying but before we thought differently .. now there comes a insurance company who sees that people in certain weight ranges die faster. So they have actual data and change the ranges for obese. I don't see anything wrong there if it is done on basis of real figures as they did. No big conspiracy just a better view based on data

- Telling people their metabolic rate goes down when dieting.

Great this is true but no big mystery or conspiracy, if you have less weight to lug around you burn less energy. Instead of being honest about it they act like this is some evil conspiracy getting a dr to say that it does not work. How about lifting some weights to get some muscle mass to get back some of the muscle people loose by doing (EXTREME) diets. They never go into how you can counter these negative sides. It is shown that if you lift weights and loose weight your metabolic rate stays good.

This whole program is a big scam, instead of telling you how you can loose your weight and stay healthy they go on about failure and failure.

The fact that they think everyone is the same, some people burn less calories then others by default so they should not compare those people with the group that burns less. Its just like with anything else, we are not all as strong / fast / smart / tall ect we have our genetic limits but nobody has to be fat.

The guy saying i see all those people counting calories but nobody is fat.. sure because they look out for what they eat.

This whole program is to make fat people feel good without giving them actual advice how to loose the weight and keep it off.

Loosing weight is a lifetime commitment especially in our current environment where we have caloric dense food available to us that tastes great. I accept that some people like me have to do more to keep the weight off then others but all can do it (unless you got a real serious disease). The fact is that people just choose to enjoy the foods instead of leading a lifestyle where they minimize alcohol and eat the right foods and exercise.

This program is nothing more then a feel good for overweight people who don't want to improve, there is said nothing about how to do it right.

[robblok]

Here a study that counters and supports this tv show, people who are on a diet and gained it back 2 groups followed for 42 months after their diet.

It showed that many gained back their weight and for all their metabolic rate was lower, however the group that did exercise and diet the per kilo !!! metabolic rate stayed the same. So yes their total metabolic rate went down (lost weight thus had to burn less calories) but their metabolic rate was normal for their weight.

Those are the things the show fails to mention.. how to counter that lower metabolic rate. So in short exercise helps you recover your metabolic rate.

http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/2361812/reload=0;jsessionid=fRQVMK6lZqJynKMSkp3T.6

I have nothing against tv shows like this if they gave real information instead of saying its impossible and that diet suppresses metabolic rate without telling that per kilo you can get it back on track by keep doing exercise during and after the diet.

[Jingthing]

Anyway, I strongly suggest that people watch all four segments and decide for YOURSELVES (we are adults here with minds of our OWN, yes?) if the show really has such nefarious motivations as have been suggested. I don't buy that. The show is massively informative and the more you know, the more tools you have to make your own personal decisions about how to approach your own health issues that are related to food intake, exercise, and body size. I might agree it would be hard to come away from that show if you are BMI 25 to 27 (the lower levels of what the mainstream now labels as overweight and unhealthy) without wondering if you are really just fine the way you are. I don't think there is anything wrong with that because that actually might be the truth, and to understand why watch the show. I think it is massively incorrect that the theme of the show is a message to people over BMI 27 should do nothing. I certainly did NOT get that message from that show and I don't really think anyone else will either!

Edited September 5, 2013 by Jingthing

[robblok]

I don't have much fait in BMI JT, my BMI is 26.5 but you can see my 6 pack and im not talking beer. Its outdated and for most of us who sport a bit it is totally off target. Fat percentages tell us a lot more however these are hard to get as the so called fat measurements with currents on scales and such are again based on a "normal population" and those who do sports fall out of those categories.

Everyone should decide for themselves what they want to do.

However i find this show lacking in the thing that is important.. giving answers.

If you loose a lot of weight your BMR will be lower as before you lost that weight, that is normal the show makes it out that its abnormal.

The problem arises when you BMR per kilo is lower as before then you got a problem. However most research that i have read shows that resistance / strength training solves that problem. Shows should point out that its normal that you should eat less after a diet and that you should make changes. They should not act like its a big conspiracy. A further supressed BMR that would be a problem and then they should suggest exercise and show the studies.

What they did was act like it was all hopeless and not normal that your BMR is lower after a diet. They gave no explanation they did not go into the per KG rate BMR (as real researchers do) and they gave no solutions for the problem. They just planted the thought in your head that it was useless to diet.

It is not useless to diet, it is useless to diet and to go back eating the same as before and the same bad habits. Because what got the person in the place of being fat in the first place was their diet that was too caloric rich and now they lost the weight and have a lower BMR (maybe even suppressed and they dont know they should exercise or that their BMR is lower because nobody tells them also the diet guys dont and it s just as wrong) and they go right back at what got them too fat before.. now with the lower BMR they are sure to put it back on and more even.

Why nobody explains this is something I really don't understand. I understand it from the fad diet sellers as telling this is bad for business. But why supposedly scientific programs like this don't explain it is wrong. Maybe because then the message isnt as sexy and shocking like dont diet.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/76/1/133.short

Strength training increases resting metabolic rate and norepinephrine levels in healthy 50- to 65-yr-old men Edited September 5, 2013 by robblok

[manarak]

BMI is certainly wrong as a one-fits-all measurement.

Easiest example - for a height of 1m50 and 50Kg, the BMI is 22.3 which says "normal weight". Even 56 Kg for 1m50 computers to 24.9 and still be considered "normal". Yet any Thai girl with these stats would look like a fat pig.

For 1m50, the normal weight of a reasonably fit girl is below 40Kg, yet that computes to less than 18 BMI which says "underweight".

BMI is total <deleted> for at least a third of people, I guess it only applies to people within the medium 66% bracket of population in terms of height and weight (which defines as the "normal" group).

Edited September 5, 2013 by manarak

[JSixpack]

robblok has made some excellent points.

Everybody I know who got overweight, and esp. obese, starting having health problems, some quite serious. Encouraging them to think it's actually normal or harmless isn't helpful at all.

[Jingthing]

Whether you think BMI is rubbish or not, the facts are BMI numbers are widely used globally now as medical guidelines to suggest to people whether they are overweight or not, and whether their level of overweight is unhealthy or not. Now we've got common sense and if we see a morbidly obese person we know that and don't need any number to tell us that and to tell us that person has a very serious health risk. The part of the show that this thread is about that focuses on BMI is mostly about the controversy over the more borderline cases. I think it's obvious some people BMI 25 to 27 are probably in very fine health and fine looking too (although not eligible for a modeling career in the west) while others may indeed have health issues with that weight, such as waist size too large to an unhealthy degree.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

For those who didn't know, BEFORE The Men Who Made Us Thin came The Men Who Made Us Fat. Highly recommended by me as well. Knowledge is power!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6nGlLUBkOQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owekbSp7wU0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlQHXkOUjeI

Back to the Thin series, there was another part that I think is worth focusing on. The research that is showing that artificial sweeteners may actually and bizarrely encourage WEIGHT GAIN rather than weight loss. This isn't really new to me but it is presented well in the show and I think may be new to a lot of people. So many people think feeding the kids "Diet" sodas is good for them. I think -- think again. Better -- NO sodas.

To view the part that addresses this research on the link between artificial sweeteners and increased obesity, watch episode THREE of the THIN series, starting at about 25:20.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

robblok has made some excellent points.

Everybody I know who got overweight, and esp. obese, starting having health problems, some quite serious. Encouraging them to think it's actually normal or harmless isn't helpful at all.

Please be careful here. I never suggested that there aren't SERIOUS health issues with obesity! Nor does the show! Not at all. The show does suggest that overweight people who are very physically active can potentially be healthier than sedentary normal weight people and that there is scientific evidence to back that up. It also suggests there are strong arguments that people who are mildly overweight (NOT OBESE!!!) may actually be at slightly less health risk statistically than normal weight people. That may go against what people have been taught all their lives, but I see no logical reason not to be open minded about NEW information. Not all overweight levels are the same with the same implications, there are the mild cases which may not actually be overweight (25 to 27 BMI), then there is unambiguous overweight, then there is obesity, then there is MORBID obesity. These are not all the same. What is the need for oversimplification?

Edited September 5, 2013 by Jingthing

[manarak]

Back to the Thin series, there was another part that I think is worth focusing on. The research that is showing that artificial sweeteners may actually and bizarrely encourage WEIGHT GAIN rather than weight loss. This isn't really new to me but it is presented well in the show and I think may be new to a lot of people. So many people think feeding the kids "Diet" sodas is good for them. I think -- think again. Better -- NO sodas.

To view the part that addresses this research on the link between artificial sweeteners and increased obesity, watch episode THREE of the THIN series, starting at about 25:20.

Excellent point, but very poorly made in the video.

This exceprt from Wikipedia is much clearer:

Weight gain and insulin response to artificial sweeteners

Animal studies have indicated that a sweet taste induces an insulin response in rats.^[6] However, the extension of animal model findings to humans is unclear, as human studies of intragastric infusion of sucralose have shown no insulin response from analogous taste receptors.^[7] The release of insulin causes blood sugar to be stored in tissues (including fat). In the case of a response to artificial sweeteners, because blood sugar does not increase there can be increased hypoglycemia or hyperinsulinemia and increased food intake the next time there is a meal. Rats given sweeteners have steadily increased calorie intake, increased body weight, and increased adiposity (fatness).^[6] Furthermore, the natural responses to eating sugary foods (eating less at the next meal and using some of the extra calories to warm the body after the sugary meal) are gradually lost.^[8]

A 2005 study by the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio showed that increased weight gain and obesity were associated with increased use of diet soda in a population-based study. The study did not establish whether increased weight gain leads to increased consumption of diet drinks or whether consumption of diet drinks could have an effect on weight gain.^[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_substitute

[Jingthing]

That's cool but it seems to me the lady in the video was doing much more recent and CURRENT research. She didn't state 100 percent certainty on the link but seemed largely convinced. Obviously more research is needed but based on current knowledge it would certainly be a good idea to avoid BOTH too much real sugar and artificial sweeteners as well. Not even to mention the horror show of that corn syrup poison (which I recall is covered robustly in the Men Who Made Us Fat part of the series). Some limited amounts of natural sugars are perfectly fine to eat; I prefer honey.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Jingthing

[tropo]

Whether you think BMI is rubbish or not, the facts are BMI numbers are widely used globally now as medical guidelines to suggest to people whether they are overweight or not, and whether their level of overweight is unhealthy or not. Now we've got common sense and if we see a morbidly obese person we know that and don't need any number to tell us that and to tell us that person has a very serious health risk. The part of the show that this thread is about that focuses on BMI is mostly about the controversy over the more borderline cases. I think it's obvious some people BMI 25 to 27 are probably in very fine health and fine looking too (although not eligible for a modeling career in the west) while others may indeed have health issues with that weight, such as waist size too large to an unhealthy degree.

It's not a matter of whether I "think BMI is rubbish or not". The measurement is absurd and is of no value whatsoever.

Bodyfat percentage is the only useful measurement. It's not easy to measure (costs time and money), so the medical community just give in and use obviously flawed measurements and then make observations based on these ridiculous numbers. This is an insult to science.

My BMI is about 35, yet it's under 20 when adjusted for muscle mass.... however, it's quite possible that I could be refused medical insurance based on my BMI number alone.

When are people going to wake up? - it's the 21st century, but we're being held back in the dark ages.

The sooner the medical community can wake up, the sooner hospitals and clinics can provide machines which accurately determine bodyfat. We haven't yet found one DEXA scanning unit available for bodyfat measurements in Thailand.

[Jingthing]

You've got a point.

BMI is used as a rough guideline for more average people, certainly not aimed at bodybuilders.

Ideally each person should have access to an more individualized assessment of their health risks related to their current body size which also includes advice on whether it is important to make major changes for health reasons, or not.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Jingthing