Help! Electric jolt while loading washing machine

[tropo]

My wife was loading our front loading automatic washing machine with a wet blanket when she got a nasty jolt of electricity through her arm.

Her hands were in contact with the wet blanket and the front door of the machine when she got the jolt.

This concerned me greatly. Hopefully they'll be an electrician with experience in Thailand on this forum who can help me solve this problem.

I didn't realise that this has happened to her before as she never told me until this evening.... she was startled because this shock was far worse. She told me that she usually pulls out the power cord whenever she loads or unloads the machine but this time she forgot.

So what's our problem?....

1. Do we have a faulty washing machine?

2. Do we have faulty wiring in the house?

3. .. or is this normal in Thailand?

Also, is her life in danger? Could this kill someone?

I would really appreciate an expert opinion on this.

Cheers

[NCC1701A]

Wow! This could be very dangerous. Don't use that washing machine until you get that sorted out.

[Crossy]

I'll lay odds that your washing machine is not grounded, it's probably not faulty (ours bites if not grounded).

Please post a photo of the machine's plug and the outlet into which it is inserted so we can better assist.

[tropo]

I'll lay odds that your washing machine is not grounded, it's probably not faulty (ours bites if not grounded).

Please post a photo of the machine's plug and the outlet into which it is inserted so we can better assist.

Here's a photo of the outlet, and one of the machine. (I've been on to the landlord about replacing it because the front panel is rusting away but he doesn't want to as the machine is still working ok). The machine is in a shower recess but far away from the shower hose, but there's often some water on the ground near the machine. When my wife got the shock she was wearing slippers.

[Shot]

Hi tropo.

This is the same setup we have, however ours is directly grounded to a rod driven through the floor behind the machine. You have a ground built into the plug which should be sufficient. My guess (I am not an electrician) would be that your plug is not truly grounded. You can pull that plug panel off and see if there is a ground. If there is, you may need to follow it (if possible) and confirm that it is properly grounded.

Ours is never plugged in while anyone is in the recess area.

Good luck. Stay safe.

Shot

[NCC1701A]

Here is something to think about.

Electrons flow from positive to negative (ground). They are always looking for a path to ground.

Electrons don't flow if there is no path to ground. The "potential" for electron flow is always present.

Electrons will follow the "path of least resistance". If you are the "BEST" path they will flow through you to find ground.

If you have a properly grounded appliance (or any electrical device) that is malfunctioning, the ground connection will cause the electrons to flow in a very large amount and the circuit breaker for that plug in your house will "trip" or open to stop the UNCONTROLLED flow of electrons to ground.

If there is no ground connection with a malfunctioning device, YOU COULD become the path to ground.

Because you maybe wearing shoes or standing on wood floors your "ground potential" changes. If you were completely grounded (holding a wire that was connected directly to the earth, there is a very good chance you will die as the total "load" would flow through you and possibly kill you before a circuit breaker for that plug would trip.

If you are in a house and you know your ground connections don't exist, and want to add a extra layer of safety, connect #4 gauge wire to the ground terminals on the back of your washer and drier (and other large appliances) and run the wire directly outside to a copper rod driven 8 feet into the ground. This would "bypass" funky Thai electrical wiring and provide a additional ground for your heavy appliances where water and humans interact.

[canman]

Here is something to think about.

Electrons flow from positive to negative (ground). They are always looking for a path to ground.

Electrons don't flow if there is no path to ground. The "potential" for electron flow is always present.

Electrons will follow the "path of least resistance". If you are the "BEST" path they will flow through you to find ground.

If you have a properly grounded appliance (or any electrical device) that is malfunctioning, the ground connection will cause the electrons to flow in a very large amount and the circuit breaker for that plug in your house will "trip" or open to stop the UNCONTROLLED flow of electrons to ground.

If there is no ground connection with a malfunctioning device, YOU COULD become the path to ground.

Because you maybe wearing shoes or standing on wood floors your "ground potential" changes. If you were completely grounded (holding a wire that was connected directly to the earth, there is a very good chance you will die as the total "load" would flow through you and possibly kill you before a circuit breaker for that plug would trip.

If you are in a house and you know your ground connections don't exist, and want to add a extra layer of safety, connect #4 gauge wire to the ground terminals on the back of your washer and drier (and other large appliances) and run the wire directly outside to a copper rod driven 8 feet into the ground. This would "bypass" funky Thai electrical wiring and provide a additional ground for your heavy appliances where water and humans interact.

NCC1701A gives some good advice. You do need to sort this out, the washer is either not grounded or is faulty, either way its a tradgedy waiting to happen. The fact that your wife is getting shocks also shows that this circuit is not protected by an ELCB, you need to rectify this.

As an aside, "conventional" current flow is from positive to negitive. Electrons however flow from negative to positive.

[Crossy]

Read the section on this page about Schuko plug adaptors http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/plugs.html

Then go and buy one.

Else, drive a local ground rod for the machine and run a wire to a case screw, if you have a suitable metal pipe you can use that instead of the rod.

The shock your lady felt is probably not a fault, it is caused my mains leakage through the mains filter which appliances with electronic power control have (your desktop computer will do the same).

If you are not sure whether the 3rd pin of your outlets is actually ground you can either get one of the power extension leads with indicator lamps which tell you, or put a small lamp (15W) between the ground and live connections, if it lights ground is reasonable.

[ignis]

Maybe help, can buy cheap from Supermarkets and DIY places....... or wear rubber based shoe/slippers

Edited September 6, 2013 by ignis

[ABCer]

I'll lay odds that your washing machine is not grounded, it's probably not faulty (ours bites if not grounded).

Please post a photo of the machine's plug and the outlet into which it is inserted so we can better assist.

9 out of 10 chances that you have no 'Earth' connection in your plug point.

Easily checked. I explained in detail how to DIY at home previously on TV.

Yes it is dangerous.

Checking the machine is more complicated and costly.

[Naam]

I'll lay odds that your washing machine is not grounded, it's probably not faulty (ours bites if not grounded).

Please post a photo of the machine's plug and the outlet into which it is inserted so we can better assist.

9 out of 10 chances that you have no 'Earth' connection in your plug point.

Easily checked. I explained in detail how to DIY at home previously on TV.

Yes it is dangerous.

Checking the machine is more complicated and costly.

it's clearly the Schuko-plug, not the socket, that has no ground contact. if his socket is grounded he needs an adaptor as Crossy suggested.

[Crossy]

I'll lay odds that your washing machine is not grounded, it's probably not faulty (ours bites if not grounded).

Please post a photo of the machine's plug and the outlet into which it is inserted so we can better assist.

9 out of 10 chances that you have no 'Earth' connection in your plug point.

Easily checked. I explained in detail how to DIY at home previously on TV.

Yes it is dangerous.

Checking the machine is more complicated and costly.

it's clearly the Schuko-plug, not the socket, that has no ground contact. if his socket is grounded he needs an adaptor as Crossy suggested.

Sadly Naam, there is a strong possibility that the 3rd pin goes nowhere

So a little further testing is needed if using the adaptor does not solve the issue.

[arthurwait]

As said you have no earth and most likely not in the wall socket. You will only know by taking the socket off the wall and looking and really by following the wire.

As it's a Thai house it's almost certain you don't.

The washing machine is bad enough, but do you have electric showers and earths on them ?

[teatree]

You should always unplug washing machines when loading or unloading whether they are earthed or not.

[Gsxrnz]

Having the water supply immediately above the electrical outlet is handy as well.

Also, judging by the rust around the machine it's likely that it's not exactly watertight and/or the water pipe/tap may be prone to leaking. This will add to the potential for disaster.

As everybody has suggested, get the earth sorted out for the house to reduce the odds of not getting fried, not just that particular appliance.

Buy gumboots, wear sunscreen.

[crazykopite]

It is due to having no earth Thais do not know what an earth is I had the same problem with my machine however looking at the machine maybe it is time to get a new one most machines are metal casing like microwaves so if it is not grounded you will get a shock more so if you have wet hands.

[jacko45k]

I had this from a fridge...it wasn't a full electric shock but a definite presence of a few volts.

I have a meter and could measure a residual several volts (AC) to the floor on the metal fridge parts.

There wasn't much I could do regarding 'earthing' as it only had a 2 pin plug on it!

Strangely enough it was much better if I rotated the plug....ie swapped the live and neutral, but the plug wasn't keyed. (I have 3 pin sockets in the house and an earth circuit).

One option is to run your own earth wire but finding a place to run it to can be a problem.

Beware of those old fashioned electric kettles they have here, very dangerous as you are often grabbing at the plug to disconnect it..... I threw one out after the TGF got a shock and her mother subsequently got zapped by another.

[jampola]

This is very common in Thailand. Usually shoddy electricians are to blame as well as the humidity.

You have 3 prongs (sometimes 2) on most devices. One is L which is your Live wire, one is N which is Neutral and one is E which is Earth. Not all appliances have an Earth prong (Usually the appliances that are completely sealed with some kind of non conductive material, like plastic) but your washer does since it does have a metal chasis -- You have 2 possibilities here.

1: Your machine is faulty or has something that shorting the Live elec wire with the Earth (Since earth is usually connected to the chassis of the machine)

2: You wiring in your house is faulty and something is crossing Live elec with the Earth.

You can go about this 2 ways to check which one is the culprit.

1) Go to the hardware store, purchase a current testing screwdriver. something like this - http://www.wickes.co.uk/content/ebiz/wickes/invt/500525/Screwdriver-Mains-Tester_large.jpg

2) Hold the screwdriver with your hand touching the metal at the butt end of the screw driver and insert the screwdriver into the middle earth prong of socket of the electricity outlet you plug your washer into.

If you see the light in the screw driver light up, then you have an earth leakage and I would suggest you call a GOOD electrician. I would also check other outlets around the house also, just to be safe. I would also try unplug everything in the house also just to be 100% sure that it's the wiring causing the earth leak and not another appliance (since Earth can be shared across all the wiring in the house)

Hope this makes sense. Good luck, sir!

[recycler]

Looks like the ground or earth wire in the socket is not connected.

Make sure the machine get an earth connection either by getting a proper earth in the socket or a separate earth wire.

!!!!! Much more important is that you make sure the water heater in your shower is earthed, failure there could kill you instantly !!!!!!!

[givenall]

I'll lay odds that your washing machine is not grounded, it's probably not faulty (ours bites if not grounded).

Please post a photo of the machine's plug and the outlet into which it is inserted so we can better assist.

Here's a photo of the outlet, and one of the machine. (I've been on to the landlord about replacing it because the front panel is rusting away but he doesn't want to as the machine is still working ok). The machine is in a shower recess but far away from the shower hose, but there's often some water on the ground near the machine. When my wife got the shock she was wearing slippers.

washing machine 1.jpg

washing machine outlet.jpg

Check the ground. I bet is not grounded ad is for show

[Mrjlh]

Pull the washing machine plug out and show us a picture if the plug. Can't be sure from your picture but it appears the plug is does not have an actual grounding pin on it. Notice the indent trace on the plug? That should indicate ground (earth). The outlet has the ground pins facing toward the water pipe. But is there a pin from the plug in the other location? Simply reverse the plug for starters. That should make the hot and neutral correct. Adding a ground is highly recommended.

I would strongly suggest you move the water pipe several feet away from the plug if you can. Plumber can do that if you need help.

Also need to check to see if the wiring inside the outlet is correct. Even with 220V you need to make sure the Hot and neutral is correct. Crossy should be able to help with that.

[AYJAYDEE]

The safest way is to run a ground from the machine case to a copper rod driven into DAMP earth. and while youre at it, do your microwave oven too!

[Naam]

It is due to having no earth Thais do not know what an earth is I had the same problem with my machine however looking at the machine maybe it is time to get a new one most machines are metal casing like microwaves so if it is not grounded you will get a shock more so if you have wet hands.

most Thais know "earth" very well and that applies to all Thai builders and Thai electricians. the problem is with some (not all!) Thai builders who want to pocket a few additional Baht profit.

[Schuimpge]

I'll lay odds that your washing machine is not grounded, it's probably not faulty (ours bites if not grounded).

Please post a photo of the machine's plug and the outlet into which it is inserted so we can better assist.

Here's a photo of the outlet, and one of the machine. (I've been on to the landlord about replacing it because the front panel is rusting away but he doesn't want to as the machine is still working ok). The machine is in a shower recess but far away from the shower hose, but there's often some water on the ground near the machine. When my wife got the shock she was wearing slippers.

washing machine 1.jpg

washing machine outlet.jpg

1. Cut the plug and replace it with a 3-prong plug to ensure you get grounded connection on the washing machine side.

2. Buy one of those extension cords that have a ground-indicator light. (they cost like 500 baht in Amorn and the likes). These are very useful, as you simply plug them into an outlet and if the light goes green on the extension cord box, then your outlet is properly grounded.

3. It is perfectly normal for static energy to build up in a washing machine. Think of wool, nylon and other fabrics spinning around in the drum. They generate massive energy from friction.

So clearly, if your washing machine is not grounded, you'll release that energy. (the same for micro-waves and many other appliances).

4. Depending on the age of the house you're living in, expect the electricity to be a mess, unless you've supervised everything yourself during the build of the house.

You can only start to imagine how my house looked when I started renovating. The spaghetti of wires (nicely hidden above the ceiling), true horror. An aircon installation was done by scraping some mantle of the mains cable of the house and then taping the aircon-electrics to it. (of course with one of those 50 Baht Plastic Breakers for show).. Upon removing more ceilings, more of those installation marvels where found in every room.

So, you want to be safe? Install a ground rod, a proper 3-pin plug, and to be 100% safe... hardwire the washing-machine into a proper breaker next to the machine. Just trip the breaker and (un)load the machine.

Cheers,

Luc

Just to show what to expect:

Bedroom Electrics before ripping it out

Mains just goes over walls and steel without any protection

Wizzard Sparky who installed the aircon before we moved in..Absolute masterpiece, wonder which university he graduated.

Proper junction boxes with cables all protected.

Lots of PVC went into the ceiling. At the very least, I've increased the value of my house substantially by the time I want to sell it.

An almost finished Breaker Box. This one is an industrial grade box, you can do with less, but I had it on the cheap.

Proper grounding bush-bar, large main breaker, separate circuits for rooms. 3 Aircons pre-wired, so no freak-wiring anymore.

It's been working perfect. I used to switch down the whole house just to change a light-bulb!!! No more, anything, just switch of a room only.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Schuimpge

[Crossy]

1. Cut the plug and replace it with a 3-prong plug to ensure you get grounded connection on the washing machine side.

2. Buy one of those extension cords that have a ground-indicator light. (they cost like 500 baht in Amorn and the likes). These are very useful, as you simply plug them into an outlet and if the light goes green on the extension cord box, then your outlet is properly grounded.

3. It is perfectly normal for static energy to build up in a washing machine. Think of wool, nylon and other fabrics spinning around in the drum. They generate massive energy from friction.

So clearly, if your washing machine is not grounded, you'll release that energy. (the same for micro-waves and many other appliances).

4. Depending on the age of the house you're living in, expect the electricity to be a mess, unless you've supervised everything yourself during the build of the house.

You can only start to imagine how my house looked when I started renovating. The spaghetti of wires (nicely hidden above the ceiling), true horror. An aircon installation was done by scraping some mantle of the mains cable of the house and then taping the aircon-electrics to it. (of course with one of those 50 Baht Plastic Breakers for show).. Upon removing more ceilings, more of those installation marvels where found in every room.

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. No it's not static it's leakage from the mains filter, but grounding will stop it.

4. Tell me about it

[Schuimpge]

Oh...Forgot to mention, the house I have was build by Property Perfect, largely unchanged when we bought it.

So from a Developer THAT BIG...you get electric done as shown in the pictures.

Granted, the house is close to 18 years old, but the second one I bought...exactly the same..so it sure was the standard for building at the time.

Do never trust Electricity in Thailand...it's like Russian Roulette (but Russian Roulette has better odds imho).

[julemanden]

Here is something to think about.

Electrons flow from positive to negative (ground). They are always looking for a path to ground.

Electrons don't flow if there is no path to ground. The "potential" for electron flow is always present.

Electrons will follow the "path of least resistance". If you are the "BEST" path they will flow through you to find ground.

If you have a properly grounded appliance (or any electrical device) that is malfunctioning, the ground connection will cause the electrons to flow in a very large amount and the circuit breaker for that plug in your house will "trip" or open to stop the UNCONTROLLED flow of electrons to ground.

If there is no ground connection with a malfunctioning device, YOU COULD become the path to ground.

Because you maybe wearing shoes or standing on wood floors your "ground potential" changes. If you were completely grounded (holding a wire that was connected directly to the earth, there is a very good chance you will die as the total "load" would flow through you and possibly kill you before a circuit breaker for that plug would trip.

If you are in a house and you know your ground connections don't exist, and want to add a extra layer of safety, connect #4 gauge wire to the ground terminals on the back of your washer and drier (and other large appliances) and run the wire directly outside to a copper rod driven 8 feet into the ground. This would "bypass" funky Thai electrical wiring and provide a additional ground for your heavy appliances where water and humans interact.

Yep all right, but problem is that the copper rods in Th are made out of steel, they look, like copper, but aint!! Still working ok though

[Crossy]

Yep all right, but problem is that the copper rods in Th are made out of steel, they look, like copper, but aint!! Still working ok though

Ground rods can be almost any metal except aluminium.

Copper is excellent but expensive.

Copper clad steel is good but watch for the thickness of the cladding.**

Hot-dipped galvanised steel is also good (and cheap).**

Stainless steel is very good but expensive.

** with copper clad and galvanised rods the danger is corrosion where the steel is exposed, some quality rust-proofing paint should be applied here.

[Raybo]

I am an electrician with 44 years of experience and graduated from an approved Electrician course.

Perhaps I can help.

If you have a voltmeter, measure from the machine to something that you know to be grounded,

Such as a metal pipe or rod in the ground.

If you see anything more than a few volts, you have an electrical leak that is touching the cabinet of the

Machine.

Even if you don't have a bad leak, find a screw on the back of the machine or anywhere on the machines

Metal cabinet. Attach a #12 awg or thai equivilent to the cabinet of the machine and run it outside to

A metal rod driven in the ground at least 4 ft. A copper ground rod would be better.

Before attempting, wet the area where the rod will go, it will make it easier to drive the rod and give you a better ground connetion.

After this, it should take care of the electrical,leak.

A rubber rug in front ofnthe machine and rubber sole shoes not flip flop will help.

Once you run the wire and ground it, when you turn the machine on, if you have a bad electrical leak,

It may trip a breaker or blow the fuse to the washer circuit.

If that happen, you need someone to find the leak and fix it.

If you can look at the connection from the machine to the receptacle. Hopefully you will have at least

A 3 wire hookup. 2 hot wires and a neutral. Preferrably a 4 wire hookup. 2 hots a neutral and a separate

Ground. Usually the electric meter will have a ground at the place where it is mounted.

That is required in most western countries. I don't think Thailand worries about it.

ChuLai 6768

[Schuimpge]

I'll lay odds that your washing machine is not grounded, it's probably not faulty (ours bites if not grounded).

Please post a photo of the machine's plug and the outlet into which it is inserted so we can better assist.

Here's a photo of the outlet, and one of the machine. (I've been on to the landlord about replacing it because the front panel is rusting away but he doesn't want to as the machine is still working ok). The machine is in a shower recess but far away from the shower hose, but there's often some water on the ground near the machine. When my wife got the shock she was wearing slippers.

washing machine 1.jpg

washing machine outlet.jpg

For sure your machine is not grounded. The plug you have is a European Standard plug. The ground comes from 2 metal strips in small recesses at the side of the plug. In a European receptacle, you'll see 2 metal wire springs that would make contract with the ground on the plug.

Thailand, a grounded plug has to be 3 pronged, the ground prong goes into the receptacle. So your ground (if it's properly wired) is useless with this plug.