Thaksin Returns To Thailand

[hammered]

Of course he didnt see Blair or Bush on his recent travels. The leaders of small countries (and to the US and UK that is what Thailand is) do get to have occaisional high profile visits complete with photo-ops to the US and UK. They also get to meet the big two at international events if they are official members of delegations or elected representatives. They do not get secretive coffee meetings while on a personal sojourn when Bush and Blair have their own more important agendas. That is reality.

I see from a tiny article in the Bangkok Post that it is now being leaked that he may see Chirac on Tueday! And the same article mentions that he is still looking to see Blair. All of this is purely for domestic audiences and no doubt the state run media will have it all over the TV as soon as he finds some western leader who is in the same vicinity of the ex-primeminister for 5 seconds.

[Jai Dee]

Thaksin to pay Chirac courtesy call next week

Caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra will pay a "courtesy call" on French President Jacques Chirac in Paris on Tuesday, an informed source said yesterday.

On the same trip to Europe, there is a "possibility" that Mr Thaksin will see British Prime Minister Tony Blair in London, the British embassy said.

Mr Thaksin approached the ambassadors of both countries early this month for meetings with their heads of government. He is seen to be anxious to explain his position after taking a pause from government on April 4, and to assure investors about prospects in Thailand.

Source: Bangkok Post - 22 April 2006

[ando]

I'm sure glad the courts dont apply your standard of proof.

As I said earlier, I am not convinced one way or the other, but on the balance of evidence that can not prove he did not meet Bush, I am more inclined to take Thaksins word for it.

Re journalistic standards of proof, I haven't seen any journalists come out and put their credibility on the line by stating that Thaksin did not meet Bush privately.

See what you can turn up on Google about Thaksins trip to Houston

I find it amusing how some here are getting hot under the collar over such a trivial matter.

As far as proving one way or another that Thaksin did or didn't meet with Bush and/or Blair for unofficial meetings, I doubt any amount of debate here will turn up confirming evidence one way or the other. One camp says -- show me proof he did. I would say equally, -- show me proof he didnt.

I suspect he probably did. Thats all I can say. I could be wrong, -- so what.

There's something out there called Google. Here are the search results for "Thaksin", "meet" and "Bush" in Google News. Find me an article there that verifies whether Thaksin met Bush. The only thing we have to go off of now is Thaksin's word, which you seem to think is extremely reliable - on what basis, I don't know. Anyway, find me a source OTHER THAN THAKSIN'S OWN WORDS that tells us he actually did.

Is this standard of proof too high for you? Let me teach you a very basic principle of journalism. A fact needs to be verified by at least one independent source before it can represented as fact in print. Not a terribly high standard if you ask me or anyone else here.

EDIT: As a previous poster noted, these kind of claims by Thaksin are intended purely for domestic consumption. The local media are too lazy and the international media are too busy to hold Thaksin to task for his comments. Only the truly gullible would accept the totality of the man's comments at face value.

[BalthazarBeefheart]

Of course he didnt see Blair or Bush on his recent travels. The leaders of small countries (and to the US and UK that is what Thailand is) do get to have occaisional high profile visits complete with photo-ops to the US and UK. They also get to meet the big two at international events if they are official members of delegations or elected representatives. They do not get secretive coffee meetings while on a personal sojourn when Bush and Blair have their own more important agendas. That is reality.

I see from a tiny article in the Bangkok Post that it is now being leaked that he may see Chirac on Tueday! And the same article mentions that he is still looking to see Blair. All of this is purely for domestic audiences and no doubt the state run media will have it all over the TV as soon as he finds some western leader who is in the same vicinity of the ex-primeminister for 5 seconds.

Yes you've hammered the nail on the head there. Perhaps the clever chappie is now letting people know how well-contacted he is and conversely how less well-connected his rivals are. I doubt if he will be going "shopping" in Singapore next.

[tettyan]

I'm sure glad the courts dont apply your standard of proof.

As I said earlier, I am not convinced one way or the other, but on the balance of evidence that can not prove he did not meet Bush, I am more inclined to take Thaksins word for it.

Re journalistic standards of proof, I haven't seen any journalists come out and put their credibility on the line by stating that Thaksin did not meet Bush privately.

See what you can turn up on Google about Thaksins trip to Houston

Did you even bother looking up the Google search results that I linked for YOUR benefit? I certainly wasn't doing it just for my health.

On the Texas visit, since you are apparently incapable of using Google yourself, I will link the search results for you. Here it is for "Thaksin" and "Houston".

It looks like he was there, but based on these reports (read them yourself, I'm not going to repost them all here), it looks like he may have cut his visit short in the face of protests.

Personally, I don't care how much time he spent in Houston or whether he played golf or not. What matters is whether or not he met the president, as he so claims. My friends at MFA (which would normally be involved in making arrangements for such visits) have no clue what the PM's up to, and there are no independent news reports to confirm that any meeting took place.

I've done my homework. Come back when you've done yours.

[sriracha john]

The last anti-Thaksin protest was held in Houston, Texas, ahead of a planned visit by the caretaker Prime Minister to his former university. A crowd of demonstrators confronted the caretaker prime minister at Houston Airport forcing Thaksin to change his itinerary and visit Chicago instead.

lol@lukamar...

Trying to defend the indefensible and rationalize the irrational.

Laughing at me.. L...O...L Look in the mirror.

You just posted a total contradiction to your argument and managed to defend the indefensible and rationalize the irrational all on your own. Nothing I could possibly say could upstage that blunder.

I realize you have many detractors and antagonists, lukamar, and that sometimes it may seem the whole TV world is against you.... BUT

before you attempt to go on the offensive with an aggressive post in response, try to sort out which detractor said what. If makes you look less buffonish.

My "argument" all along was only that Thaksin lied about meeting Bush and Blair.... nothing more (a review of my posts will bear this out).

Hence... no blunder on my part. If anything, the article simply reconfirms that Thaksin, in fact, did not meet Bush while in the USA by not mentioning anything about it. The article also does go on to report that many Thais in the USA (Gosh, isn't that close to Canada?) are totally anti-Thaksin.

Wishing you all the best in your future efforts to sort out specifically what your detractors are saying.

and oh yes... one more thing....

STILL .... lol@lukamar....

[ando]

Interesting how lack of evidence (on the internet) is considered irrefutable evidence by some here.

A bit like conspiracy theories,-- entertaining, but lacking in substance to back up the claims.

I say again, -- one camp says he did meet Bush and one camp says he didn't. I wont be convinced either way until someone can come up with some reasonable proof. At the moment all we have is a total lack of proof that he he didn't have such meeting and a statement by Thaksin that he did in fact privately meet with Bush. It would seem to me that some internet addicts put too much faith in Google as the all knowing, all seeing, sole source of all truth. Without even a scarrick of evidence to the contrary Thaksins public confirmation of the meeting is the ONLY evidence on public show at the moment. I am afraid I have to give him the benefit of the doubt in such a case.

Thaksin has so many professional opponents in the Thai media that I have to ask why none of them have not come up with anything even resembling conclusive evidence that he did not in fact meet with Bush. Personal opinions and suspicions dont really count for much when reporting the facts. Fact is that Thaksin said he met with Bush. Fact is that no one has any evidence what so ever to the contrary.

The opinions and suspicions of the anti-Thaskin crowd posting here wont change my view until they can come up with something more conclusive than -- "it cant be true because I couldn't find it on Goggle". As I said before, I am cynical of politicans. I dont believe everything they do is open and transparent to the media. Just give me some proof to change my mind. A total absence of genuine proof can not be considered as defacto proof I am afraid.

Some of you blokes here spin a good yarn with little or no substance which in the end boils down to just piss and wind personal opinions and theories. Still I have to give credit that some of the theories expressed could be almost believable without closer inspection.

Edited April 22, 2006 by ando

[tettyan]

Interesting how lack of evidence (on the internet) is considered irrefutable evidence by some here.

A bit like conspiracy theories,-- entertaining, but lacking in substance to back up the claims.

I say again, -- one camp says he did meet Bush and one camp says he didn't. I wont be convinced either way until someone can come up with some reasonable proof. At the moment all we have is a total lack of proof that he he didn't have such meeting and a statement by Thaksin that he did in fact privately meet with Bush. It would seem to me that some internet addicts put too much faith in Google as the all knowing, all seeing, sole source of all truth. Without even a scarrick of evidence to the contrary Thaksins public confirmation of the meeting is the ONLY evidence on public show at the moment. I am afraid I have to give him the benefit of the doubt in such a case.

Thaksin has so many professional opponents in the Thai media that I have to ask why none of them have not come up with anything even resembling conclusive evidence that he did not in fact meet with Bush. Personal opinions and suspicions dont really count for much when reporting the facts. Fact is that Thaksin said he met with Bush. Fact is that no one has any evidence what so ever to the contrary.

The opinions and suspicions of the anti-Thaskin crowd posting here wont change my view until they can come up with something more conclusive than -- "it cant be true because I couldn't find it on Goggle". As I said before, I am cynical of politicans. I dont believe everything they do is open and transparent to the media. Just give me some proof to change my mind. A total absence of proof can not be considered as defacto proof I am afraid.

Someone mentioned above that he may have not actually said he met Bush. All he said in response to reporters' questions with regards to Bush and Blair was that he "met them before, and hopes to meet them again." Which is true, he has met the leaders before (not necessarily on that trip), and would like to meet them again.

A link to a non-Thai media source (Singaporean in fact, not exactly what I'd call "anti-Thaksin") about Thaksin's upcoming trip to France. This is how they interpreted the PM's remarks regarding his trip to the US and UK:

Thaksin returned to Thailand early Thursday after a week-long trip to the United States and Britain but declined to say if he met any government leaders.

Edited April 22, 2006 by tettyan

[stumonster]

Interesting how lack of evidence (on the internet) is considered irrefutable evidence by some here.

A bit like conspiracy theories,-- entertaining, but lacking in substance to back up the claims.

I say again, -- one camp says he did meet Bush and one camp says he didn't. I wont be convinced either way until someone can come up with some reasonable proof. At the moment all we have is a total lack of proof that he he didn't have such meeting

none of them have not come up with anything even resembling conclusive evidence that he did not in fact meet with Bush. Personal opinions and suspicions dont really count for much when reporting the facts. Fact is that Thaksin said he met with Bush. Fact is that no one has any evidence what so ever to the contrary.

so you are still open to the possibility that he 'might' have met elvis also ..... ??

[Ricardo]

If I claim that I was abducted by aliens last week, and nobody can find proof that I wasn't, does that mean that I really was carried-away ?

Personally I don't see why Bush & Blair would have made time, at short notice, to meet with an ex-PM of a minor S.E.Asian country, while on a private trip to London. It's strange that there were no TV-reports or photos of the meetings in the Thai press. And note that (always clever with words) Thaksin didn't actually claim that the meetings had been during his most-recent trip, merely that he had met them.

It's hilarious that some posters still take the man's word for anything - I mean, that trip to Singapore really was just a shopping trip, and the subsequent sale of Shin Corp was never ever discussed with anyone down there during the trip. Right.

[Plus]

I say again, -- one camp says he did meet Bush and one camp says he didn't. I wont be convinced either way until someone can come up with some reasonable proof. At the moment all we have is a total lack of proof that he he didn't have such meeting and a statement by Thaksin that he did in fact privately meet with Bush.

Please, Ando, don't say that again, because it makes you look like a troll arguing just for the sake of it.

There's no camp that says "he met Bush". The only person who implies so is Thaksin himself.

We DON'T have a statement by Thaksin that he privately met with Bush on his last trip.

People chose to believe one way or another, or interpret his elusive answer differently, or just wait for more information.

As I understand it, Bangkok Post reports that he STILL hopes to meet Blair.

[lukamar]

I realize you have many detractors and antagonists, lukamar, and that sometimes it may seem the whole TV world is against you.... BUT

If makes you look less buffonish.

I may have many detractors and antagonists, John, and at times it does appear like some of the TV posters have ant-Thaksin tunnel-vision and an anti-Canadian bent. In fact it looks like it's an old boys club that does not want anyone with differing views to get in the door and shouts them down on every occasion. That attitude is not just aimed at me but at others with differing attitudes as well.

Calling me a buffoon or pointing a finger at others, even in a round about manner, is the exact thing that makes everyone who doesn't agree with you shake their head and wonder, if yours rattles when you do the same.

[cdnvic]

SriRacha John, and Lukamar. Your squabbling isn't needed here. If you want to call each other names please exchange emails. If it keeps up in public you two will have to be muzzled.

cv

[Plus]

the exact thing that makes everyone ... shake their head and wonder

is when you said that "meet" can mean having a videoconference call when every other argument fails.

Look, no one would have said anything if Thaksin actually met or didn't meet Blair and/or Bush. The problem is that he lied about it, or at least the perception is that he lied.

BP reports that according to British Embassy Thaksin is still seeking a meeting with Blair, while Thaksin said something to the effect the meeting took place already.

>>>>>>>>>

Thaksin to pay Chirac courtesy call next week

Caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra will pay a "courtesy call" on French President Jacques Chirac in Paris on Tuesday, an informed source said yesterday.

On the same trip to Europe, there is a "possibility" that Mr Thaksin will see British Prime Minister Tony Blair in London, the British embassy said.

Mr Thaksin approached the ambassadors of both countries early this month for meetings with their heads of government. He is seen to be anxious to explain his position after taking a pause from government on April 4, and to assure investors about prospects in Thailand.

[sriracha john]

Not surprised that things have gotten so misconstrued and misstated, but just to set the record straight, I'm not in any way, shape, or form, "anti-Canadian"...

[ando]

A lot of supposition going on here in the absence of any real facts. Just a lot of personal opinions supported by some loosely connected events.

The debate is basically at a stalemate since no one can come up with any evidence to prove their opinion one way or another. In the absence of any hard facts, all some posters can do is try and push their point of view by trying to discredit those with opposing views. I dont go much for personal attacks and I am getting a bit bored with this debate since it seems to be going nowhere. So I think I will just drop out of it for a while until something new comes up. I come along here to put my views and learn from others. I've put my views and it seems no one has anything but personal opinions to put on the table, so I am out of here for now.

Still, it will be interesting to see who tries to have the last say. :-)

[Eatdog]

Bush isn't smart enough to know that Thaksin isn't the PM anymore!

But he knows that Thailand is not part of China, or was it Taiwan which is not part of China??

Or both?

What is your point ? Taiwan is part of China

[Eatdog]

Dtoh lair-oh - Thaksin Goh hok !

I saw nothing in the news about Thaksin meeting Bush or Blair.

He lives in a fantasy world.

Bush is in the US , Blair was on holiday.

Phonecalls ? Perhaps, perhaps,perhaps !

I am living in Houston,US. Yes, Thaksin arrived in Houston that I read newspaper

[sriracha john]

Outgoing Thai PM to meet Chirac next Tuesday

BANGKOK (AFP) - Thailand's outgoing Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who stepped aside earlier this month after weeks of protests, will meet French President Jacques Chirac in Paris on Tuesday, reports said.

Thaksin, who said he would not accept the post of prime minister when parliament convenes early May, will explain his position to the French president and try to reassure countries interested in investing in Thailand, the Bangkok Post reported citing an unnamed source.

The French embassy refused to confirm or deny the report.

There was also the "possibility" Thaksin would go to London to meet British Prime Minister Tony Blair during the same trip to Europe, the Bangkok Post said, citing the British embassy.

However, an embassy spokesman could not be contacted Saturday.

An official in Thaksin's ruling Thai Rak Thai party, which he heads, told AFP he could not confirm the reports.

Thaksin returned to Thailand early Thursday after a week-long trip to the United States and Britain but declined to say if he met any government leaders.

Chirac held a two-day state visit to Thailand in mid-February that was largely a pitch for French business interests in the region.

Thaksin was also expected to travel to Japan and China, according to party officials.

[sriracha john]

Bush isn't smart enough to know that Thaksin isn't the PM anymore!

But he knows that Thailand is not part of China, or was it Taiwan which is not part of China??

Or both?

What is your point ? Taiwan is part of China

Not to move toooo off-topic, but 23 million Taiwanese might not agree with that assessment.

World Factbook

Government type (Taiwan): Multiparty democratic regime headed by popularly-elected president and unicameral legislature.

Government type (China): Communist state.

[Ricardo]

Dtoh lair-oh - Thaksin Goh hok !

I saw nothing in the news about Thaksin meeting Bush or Blair.

He lives in a fantasy world.

Bush is in the US , Blair was on holiday.

Phonecalls ? Perhaps, perhaps,perhaps !

I am living in Houston,US. Yes, Thaksin arrived in Houston that I read newspaper

Progress - so DL did briefly visit Houston, on his holidays, which explains the anti-T demo there, and is at least in the same country as GWB.

Eatdog - did the article mention who he saw, during his visit ? Presuming that a face-to-face meeting with the President would warrant at least a mention or photos, in the local newspaper ?

[Eatdog]

Bush isn't smart enough to know that Thaksin isn't the PM anymore!

But he knows that Thailand is not part of China, or was it Taiwan which is not part of China??

Or both?

What is your point ? Taiwan is part of China

Not to move toooo off-topic, but 23 million Taiwanese might not agree with that assessment.

World Factbook

Government type (Taiwan): Multiparty democratic regime headed by popularly-elected president and unicameral legislature.

Government type (China): Communist state.

Taiwan is part of China over thousand years, so they speak Chinese

[Eatdog]

Dtoh lair-oh - Thaksin Goh hok !

I saw nothing in the news about Thaksin meeting Bush or Blair.

He lives in a fantasy world.

Bush is in the US , Blair was on holiday.

Phonecalls ? Perhaps, perhaps,perhaps !

I am living in Houston,US. Yes, Thaksin arrived in Houston that I read newspaper

Progress - so DL did briefly visit Houston, on his holidays, which explains the anti-T demo there, and is at least in the same country as GWB.

Eatdog - did the article mention who he saw, during his visit ? Presuming that a face-to-face meeting with the President would warrant at least a mention or photos, in the local newspaper ?

It is very possible that DL came Houston ,TX to meet Bush.

Bush spends more time in his TX farm than White House. some private meeting, you couldn't see from newspaper.

[tettyan]

It is very possible that DL came Houston ,TX to meet Bush.

Bush spends more time in his TX farm than White House. some private meeting, you couldn't see from newspaper.

That ranch you mention in Crawford, TX is a deliberate publicity stunt by the President designed to build up his image as a leader who's more in touch with the "heartland" as opposed to the political "establishment" in Washington, DC. Every time he visits, he makes drags entire White House press corps and more in tow, to ensure maximum publicity. As far as I know, the White House press corps hasn't gone anywhere in the past few weeks (save Camp David in MD), and there are no press releases from the White House's website indicating any such visit took place.

[Johpa]

Taiwan is part of China over thousand years, so they speak Chinese

Not quite. Taiwan was actually colonized by Chinese only over the past few hundred years. Prior to the late 17th century it was an island inhabited by "barbarians" speaking non-Chinese languages. Of course in the face of continued Han migrations to the island, these indigenous people have all but disappeared, the most likely fate for the Tibetan people as well, another land recently imagined as having been Chinese for millenia. Don't think that Thailand, also once perceived as a vassel State in some of the older Chinese chronicles, is immune to such historical musings as population presssures mount over the decades.

It is always a bit startling to observe well educated Chinese believe in some of the imagined history emanating from Bejing to justify their colonial endeavours.

[h90]

Taiwan is part of China over thousand years, so they speak Chinese

Not quite. Taiwan was actually colonized by Chinese only over the past few hundred years. Prior to the late 17th century it was an island inhabited by "barbarians" speaking non-Chinese languages. Of course in the face of continued Han migrations to the island, these indigenous people have all but disappeared, the most likely fate for the Tibetan people as well, another land recently imagined as having been Chinese for millenia. Don't think that Thailand, also once perceived as a vassel State in some of the older Chinese chronicles, is immune to such historical musings as population presssures mount over the decades.

It is always a bit startling to observe well educated Chinese believe in some of the imagined history emanating from Bejing to justify their colonial endeavours.

thats really off topic, if you read my original post, it was a joke about bush (as well not one of the best posts ever) and had nearly nothing to do with the taiwan/china story, just that bush doesn't know the difference between thailand and taiwan (a not so amazing joke). And than Eatdog started trolling about that topic.

Just ignore that...

[sriracha john]

After not visiting with two foreign leaders, Thaksin's leaving on a trip to not visit with seven foreign leaders... but then again, maybe Gloria will spare a few minutes for the unemployed, resigned, disgraced, former, previous, ex-caretaker PM..... Maybe get some good stock tips from him. :

Thaksin leaving on foreign tour

Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra is to leave the country late tonight to begin what officials are calling unofficial visits and briefings with leaders of at least seven countries.

He said he would "brief government leaders of those seven countries on the current political situation in Thailand."

Mr Thaksin said he would not attend the 2006 annual meeting of the Thai Rak Thai Party because he would be away from Bangkok and that he had assigned a deputy leader of the party to preside over the meeting.

The lame-duck premier said he will fly out of Bangkok at 1.10 am Monday, bound for London. He is expected to meet Prime Minister Tony Blair, and then fly to Paris, probably for a meeting with President Jacques Chirac of France.

On Thursday, Mr Thaksin hopes to meet President Vladimir Putin of Russia in Moscow. Then he will travel to Japan, to China, and back to Bangkok by Saturday.

He said he would take a second trip to the Philippines and Malaysia on April 30. Malaysia is the current chairman of Asean, and the Philippines will be next.

- BP

[sriracha john]

Thaksin departs tonight for a week-long overseas trip

Thaksin Shinawatra, the caretaker prime minister, left for Europe and Asia on Sunday night for a one-week trip to hold talks with seven global leaders about the Thai political situation.

His first stop on Monday, April 24, will be London, where he will meet with Tony Blair, the British prime minister. On the following Tuesday, he will head to Paris to meet with Jacque Chirac, the French leader.

In the same evening, Thaksin will leave for Moscow. On April 27, Thaksin will fly to Japan and will leave for China on the same day. He will take a rest in China on April 28 before heading home on April 29. And on April 30, he will leave again for the Philippines.

Thaksin is seeking to augment his role in the international arena following his decision not to assume the premiership in the next government, although his Thai Rak Thai Party won a majority in the April 2 snap election.

"I am going to meet with the global leaders as friends. I will discuss with them about the confusing political situation in Thailand," he said.

"They would like to know first hand what is happening in our country. Why is it so strange? They would like to know the reality because when they read the newspapers they can't make any sense out of it." They aren't alone...

Thaksin will be absent from attending the annual convention of the Thai Rak Thai Party on Tuesday. But he has assigned one of the deputy party leaders to chair the annual convention.

"Don't ask me anything about politics. I am an unemployed. Politics has gone crazy. Thai Rak Thai is not a naughty boy. But, if you want to spank us on our bottoms in private, we can be. We have been following the democratic rules all the way," he added.

This marks his second foreign trip in a month as Thaksin aims to reduce the political pressure at home where the election results show Thailand is still facing a political crisis. Thaksin has been making a series of tactical retreat after he has lost confidence from the Thai elite, the intellectuals and the middleclass over his family's taxfree sale of Shin Corp to Temasek of Singapore.

During the Songkran Holiday Festival, Thaksin made his trip to the UK and the United States, where he was greeted with both welcome and protest signs from the Thai people there.

Thaksin said he knows all the global leaders rather well because of the cooperation over the past five years between Thailand and their countries.

"Since we know each other well, we should call on for a meeting and have coffee together. They are willing to welcome me. When I asked for the appointments, they readily agreed to meet me," Thaksin said.

Pathological liar... It's really getting quite comical with these fabrications. This isn't the reaction or reception that he's been getting as reported from other sources, such as the French Foreign Ministry...

In the Philippines, he will meet President Macapagal Arroyo and the Malaysian leader, Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi who happens to be in Manila during that time.

- TN

[sriracha john]

Thaksin going overseas

Caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra was due to leave on a trip to Europe and Asia early this morning. Mr Thaksin said last night that the trip is for recreational purposes, not business, adding it is the perfect time to travel now that he is ''unemployed''.

Uhmm... and he expects world leaders to meet with an unemployed bum?

But he would take the opportunity to explain Thailand's political situation to world leaders, he said.

Mr Thaksin said he would first visit France and then proceed to Russia, Japan and China before ending his five-day trip by returning to Thailand on Saturday.

He will then go to the Philippines and Malaysia on Sunday. His absence from today's Thai Rak Thai general assembly should not hurt the party since the meeting was an annual event without any special agenda, Mr Thaksin said.

He did report that he's sorry he'll be missing out on the festive soapy massage that is typically the highlight of the TRT Annual Meeting.

Edited April 23, 2006 by sriracha john

[Eatdog]

Thaksin is man