Is rape prevalent in Thailand?

[stiggy]

Simply put yes it is.

When working as a medic and also with several embassies here in Thailand, it amazed me how common it is for both Thais and westerners alike.In fact it was so common my wife was offered a rape counselling course, by one embassy to help with the assitance she provided to tourist's that where victims of sexual assault.

The attitude from most of the authorities I worked with was simply abhorrent , most commonly it was stated she /he was drunk or acting inappropriately and therefore part to blame.

What surprised me the most was the amount of male sexual assaults that took place.

I would estimate from my experience that 70% go unreported to the police or embassies (in official terms), then out of the 30% that are, most result in little or no action for the perpetrator due to the archaic legal system in place here.

Edited September 13, 2013 by stiggy

[Commander Tamson]

This thread will have 8 pages of answers in the next 5 hours....

Not correct.

The self fulfilling prophesy speaks lol

There's either something wrong with your wrist watch or you entered another space-time continuum

[MB1]

A lady I know well reported that she was effectively instructed by her boss at a high profile hotel that she would be expected to provide sexual services if she expected to retain her job. She demurred.

The boss then came back in with a second offer of a trip to Hong Kong and Mia Noi status. She said let me speak to my Mum. Her Dad showed up a day later and removed her from the hotel.

She was lucky, her family were well to do. She continually states the point that far too many women, including friends of hers, had to give in. They couldn't afford to lose their jobs.

.................................................................................................................

Following up from CT's post.

I posted an abridged version of Thai Rape Law earlier. I identified a clause that is aimed at coercion.

For some reason member(s) seems to think that I have to go on to prove case studies of where the clause was actually used to gain a conviction. I don't. All I have to do is what I did and that's to point a clause that is wide ranging and could be used against people.

What would you prefer? To know? or not know?

This Is Thailand, you will get away with everything until you don't get away with it any more.

One of the greatest pieces of advice I was given here was do not ever leave yourself vulnerable. Ever.

There's no point attacking me, it's not my law.

However as usual on Thaivisa a serious subject has degenerated into a series of willful personal attacks.

It's pathetic. No wonder people are reluctant to post on the forum.

Blether I saw one personal attack on you, the rest of the posts you may have not liked IMO were in disagreement with you and others on some of the posts, one thought I strongly disagree with on this thread is where people class RAPE as RAPE when a person/man refuses to pay after having consensual sex, call it sex by fraud, call it taking a pecuniary advantage call it theft but don't call it RAPE because IMO it's DEMEANING the meaning of the word RAPE....

No means NO and if a woman says NO and a man has sex against the womans will then it's RAPE, if he had a knife to her throat and she said yes, then IMO that's still rape.

Don't you see the difference between a couple agreeing to have consensual sex for money, how is it RAPE, it was consensual...even if he ran off without paying it's still not rape....

On post 11 of this thread Blether you gave a LIKE to a post by TheSpade, re-read the first part of his post and work out his reply which was in reply to post 4 by the heavy drinker...

Do you still LIKE post 11 or only a part of the post...?...

You lot can keep giving each other LIKES as much as you want, if you agree with each other then so be it, BUT IMO stop demeaning the meaning of rape.

Ask a bargirl/woman who's been truly RAPED by force against her will what she thinks about that rape, maybe she'll tell you.

Ask a bargirl what she thinks about a man running of after having consensual sex with her without paying her, maybe she'll tell you..

Edited September 13, 2013 by MB1

[Sakeopete]

Not much gets reported in Thailand. TBH I can't blame Thais as the police are their worst enemy and often the perpetrators. I have observed that while many rapes and statutory rapes occur in Thailand there is some justice though usually through monetary exchange not jail time. In extreme cases especially in villages vigilante justice hands down the verdict and decides the sentence. The sugarcane field is the prefered place to carry out the sentence.

[GuestHouse]

If a BG agrees to provide sex for money, and the trick pays the money and and has sex with the BG, after which the trick beats the BG, it would still be a crime, but the sex was consensual, so shouldn't it then be more like assault?

Now if the trick refused to pay the the BG for providing the sex, them it is certainly rape, and the beating should have nothing to do with it.

What if she enjoyed the sex and the guy don't pay. Would that also be rape?

If she enjoyed the sex, and agreed to wave payment, it would not be rape.

If a woman were walking down the street and a stranger grabbed her, forced her into the back of a van and banged her. If the victim has an orgasm, would it till be rape?

Yes that would be rape because the victim did not consent to have sex.

In the case of the bg and customer she did consent to have sex, she had sex and after the fact get a disagreement about the price which is slightly different.

She's not a victim of forced sex but more a victim of somebody stealing her income.

Rape is not about sex. its about Power.

Do you want to get into a discussion about the power balance in transactional sex and at what point it becomes abusive... or would you rather have your ill thought out ideas left alone?

[theblether]

A lady I know well reported that she was effectively instructed by her boss at a high profile hotel that she would be expected to provide sexual services if she expected to retain her job. She demurred.

The boss then came back in with a second offer of a trip to Hong Kong and Mia Noi status. She said let me speak to my Mum. Her Dad showed up a day later and removed her from the hotel.

She was lucky, her family were well to do. She continually states the point that far too many women, including friends of hers, had to give in. They couldn't afford to lose their jobs.

.................................................................................................................

Following up from CT's post.

I posted an abridged version of Thai Rape Law earlier. I identified a clause that is aimed at coercion.

For some reason member(s) seems to think that I have to go on to prove case studies of where the clause was actually used to gain a conviction. I don't. All I have to do is what I did and that's to point a clause that is wide ranging and could be used against people.

What would you prefer? To know? or not know?

This Is Thailand, you will get away with everything until you don't get away with it any more.

One of the greatest pieces of advice I was given here was do not ever leave yourself vulnerable. Ever.

There's no point attacking me, it's not my law.

However as usual on Thaivisa a serious subject has degenerated into a series of willful personal attacks.

It's pathetic. No wonder people are reluctant to post on the forum.

Blether I saw one personal attack on you, the rest of the posts you may have not liked IMO were in disagreement with you and others on some of the posts, one thought I strongly disagree with on this thread is where people class RAPE as RAPE when a person/man refuses to pay after having consensual sex, call it sex by fraud, call it taking a pecuniary advantage call it theft but don't call it RAPE because IMO it's DEMEANING the meaning of the word RAPE....

No means NO and if a woman says NO and a man has sex against the womans will then it's RAPE, if he had a knife to her throat and she said yes, then IMO that's still rape.

Don't you see the difference between a couple agreeing to have consensual sex for money, how is it RAPE, it was consensual...even if he ran off without paying it's still not rape....

On post 11 of this thread Blether you gave a LIKE to a post by TheSpade, re-read the first part of his post and work out his reply which was in reply to post 4 by the heavy drinker...

Do you still LIKE post 11 or only a part of the post...?...

You lot can keep giving each other LIKES as much as you want, if you agree with each other then so be it, BUT IMO stop demeaning the meaning of rape.

Ask a bargirl/woman who's been truly RAPED by force against her will what she thinks about that rape, maybe she'll tell you.

Ask a bargirl what she thinks about a man running of after having consensual sex with her without paying her, maybe she'll tell you..

Spades comment was accurate .......

But what he is saying is true though. If a girl consents to you having sex with her then it's not rape is it?

If she consents and then later things are getting a bit out of hand or she changes her mind and tells you to stop / no (therefore no longer consenting) and you continue anyway then that becomes rape.

A woman, any woman, would have an expectation of what consent involves. For the vast majority of the population ( including men ) that would not involve sexual brutalization. It absolutely wouldn't involve being forced into further "participation" after asking to stop.

I would suggest that the vast majority of right thinking people now recognize this as being the case, and recognize that after the appeal to stop has been heard, any further sexual activity falls into the realm of rape.

......................................................................................................................

You seem to be getting all twisted round on a certain subject though. Once again I am not responsible for Thai law. If Thai law has it that forcing someone into sex through coercion is rape, that's a matter for Thai law, not me. So give it a rest.

A clever lawyer could easily argue that agreeing to pay a bar girl for intercourse then not paying her was a form of coercion, so therefore a form of rape. Is it rape as we know it? No of course it isn't.

Once again, would you prefer that I don't point it out? Would you prefer that we don't know the law as it stands?

I'm not responding to this narrow point again.

.......................................................................................................

re the personal attacks, comments have been ( rightfully ) removed.

[meom]

Rape is not about sex. its about Power.

Do you want to get into a discussion about the power balance in transactional sex and at what point it becomes abusive... or would you rather have your ill thought out ideas left alone?

Yes best to leave it alone because the whole notion that not paying for transactional sex should or should not be considered rape takes away from the real issue which is that rape is prevalent and that there is a long way to go for women here to get the same support and legal protection that they get in the West.

[farang000999]

I don't want my daughter (when she grows up) having to work or study under this pseudo-cultural patriarchal hierarchical classicism racist bull shit. I want her to live and study and work under the legal protections of equality of civilized society. The notion of her having to play the role of the polite employee or student and waiing some creepy old Thai lunatic does not sit well with me. I am starting think to think that her lack of interest in Thai language is a blessing in disguise.

[farang000999]

They never got an answer, but it was the answer we all know to be true.

First off, well done. Why did they know it was you? And what happened to the rapist? Did he actually go to prison or just lose his job? Were they angry that you helped the girl?

[Commander Tamson]

They never got an answer, but it was the answer we all know to be true.

First off, well done. Why did they know it was you? And what happened to the rapist? Did he actually go to prison or just lose his job? Were they angry that you helped the girl?

Was the original post of GuestHouse, to which this answers, deleted?

[farang000999]

the quote is from post #57

[ravip]

I watched a special on the news a few nights ago about the rape rates across asia... they mentioned many countries....

Have you ever realized that THEY always condemn ASIA?

THEIR countries are perfect, aren't they?

This is pure BS, don't you agree?

I know, it is difficult to agree.

[theblether]

I don't want my daughter (when she grows up) having to work or study under this pseudo-cultural patriarchal hierarchical classicism racist bull shit. I want her to live and study and work under the legal protections of equality of civilized society. The notion of her having to play the role of the polite employee or student and waiing some creepy old Thai lunatic does not sit well with me. I am starting think to think that her lack of interest in Thai language is a blessing in disguise.

I think the biggest advantage your daughter will have is having a father like you that will love and protect her. Just like the lady in my post, as soon as her Dad found out she was vulnerable he swept in without question.

[Commander Tamson]

the quote is from post #57

Thanks! Sorry GuestHouse; can't understand how I missed that one first time round. But we'll done mate! Lets all hope the publicity that the Delhi rape is getting, makes some serious changes to at least the attitude towards rape in Asia and maybe then, eventually, to the laws!

[farang000999]

Thanks, TheBlether.

Edited September 14, 2013 by farang000999

[Commander Tamson]

I watched a special on the news a few nights ago about the rape rates across asia... they mentioned many countries....

Have you ever realized that THEY always condemn ASIA?

THEIR countries are perfect, aren't they?

This is pure BS, don't you agree?

I know, it is difficult to agree.

I don't recall anyone on here saying that the West was perfect, in either attitude or law, in respect of rape. IMO its far from it. But please enlighten us with your own thoughts if you really want to join this discussion?

[ravip]

I watched a special on the news a few nights ago about the rape rates across asia... they mentioned many countries....

Have you ever realized that THEY always condemn ASIA?

THEIR countries are perfect, aren't they?

This is pure BS, don't you agree?

I know, it is difficult to agree.

These are the type of posts that should be ignored.

Today, the shameless people rule!

Thai bashing posts attract replies more than sh** attracts flies.

[thaibeachlovers]

Yes.

[dond9391]

My police lady friend inform's me that rape is very prevalent and yet accurate statistic's are suppressed.

[itsrebel]

Very interesting read so far! And this one comes close to the verdict in the Delhi rape case, which on the face of it appears to be the correct one.

I have but a few things to add here.

First off - I recently met a 40 something Thai woman, who said she was raped five years ago by five people and then they threw her into a river to die, but a fisherman saved her life. She was disowned by her family because this happened and she wanted to go to the police. She hasn't spoken to her family since, but they made sure that she wasn't able to file the case. How they accomplished that, she didn't want to get into. It was getting very hard for her to talk about this by this part, and I chose not to push her further. Thankfully, she is doing relatively alright now and has since been able to start her own business far far away from her home city.

Although, I don't have any statistics to cite, I think it is a safe bet to say that Thailand does not do a whole lot better than say India.

Second - someone mentioned the "Indian trash" - I hope they realize that not all Indian men are rapists. But I will also add at this point that there is a problem in that country on how women are treated. But that is a much larger discussion and probably not fit for this thread.

About the BG issue. I think it is kind of a rape. Not to trivialize the sufferings of women such as mentioned earlier, but paying for an intercourse where one party is most likely doing it because she is unable to provide for herself or her family is an "economic rape". It is similar to a gun being pointed at her, of course the "gun" here being the one of hunger and starvation or watching her kids suffer due to poverty. I do understand that there are some BGs who choose to do what they do for other reasons, but I believe the vast majority don't.

[MB1]

Very interesting read so far! And this one comes close to the verdict in the Delhi rape case, which on the face of it appears to be the correct one.

I have but a few things to add here.

First off - I recently met a 40 something Thai woman, who said she was raped five years ago by five people and then they threw her into a river to die, but a fisherman saved her life. She was disowned by her family because this happened and she wanted to go to the police. She hasn't spoken to her family since, but they made sure that she wasn't able to file the case. How they accomplished that, she didn't want to get into. It was getting very hard for her to talk about this by this part, and I chose not to push her further. Thankfully, she is doing relatively alright now and has since been able to start her own business far far away from her home city.

Although, I don't have any statistics to cite, I think it is a safe bet to say that Thailand does not do a whole lot better than say India.

Second - someone mentioned the "Indian trash" - I hope they realize that not all Indian men are rapists. But I will also add at this point that there is a problem in that country on how women are treated. But that is a much larger discussion and probably not fit for this thread.

About the BG issue. I think it is kind of a rape. Not to trivialize the sufferings of women such as mentioned earlier, but paying for an intercourse where one party is most likely doing it because she is unable to provide for herself or her family is an "economic rape". It is similar to a gun being pointed at her, of course the "gun" here being the one of hunger and starvation or watching her kids suffer due to poverty. I do understand that there are some BGs who choose to do what they do for other reasons, but I believe the vast majority don't.

So according to you, it's "economic rape" because of hunger and starvation or watching her kids suffer due to poverty, this thread just gets better, talk about demeaning the meaning of rape.

All the guy's in Pattaya/Bangkok/Hua Hin etc etc are raping women because they pay a bargirl for consensual sex because her kids are starving and suffering due to poverty.....I'm off for a lie down to contemplate my sins of the past...

[itsrebel]

Very interesting read so far! And this one comes close to the verdict in the Delhi rape case, which on the face of it appears to be the correct one.

I have but a few things to add here.

First off - I recently met a 40 something Thai woman, who said she was raped five years ago by five people and then they threw her into a river to die, but a fisherman saved her life. She was disowned by her family because this happened and she wanted to go to the police. She hasn't spoken to her family since, but they made sure that she wasn't able to file the case. How they accomplished that, she didn't want to get into. It was getting very hard for her to talk about this by this part, and I chose not to push her further. Thankfully, she is doing relatively alright now and has since been able to start her own business far far away from her home city.

Although, I don't have any statistics to cite, I think it is a safe bet to say that Thailand does not do a whole lot better than say India.

Second - someone mentioned the "Indian trash" - I hope they realize that not all Indian men are rapists. But I will also add at this point that there is a problem in that country on how women are treated. But that is a much larger discussion and probably not fit for this thread.

About the BG issue. I think it is kind of a rape. Not to trivialize the sufferings of women such as mentioned earlier, but paying for an intercourse where one party is most likely doing it because she is unable to provide for herself or her family is an "economic rape". It is similar to a gun being pointed at her, of course the "gun" here being the one of hunger and starvation or watching her kids suffer due to poverty. I do understand that there are some BGs who choose to do what they do for other reasons, but I believe the vast majority don't.

So according to you, it's "economic rape" because of hunger and starvation or watching her kids suffer due to poverty, this thread just gets better, talk about demeaning the meaning of rape.

All the guy's in Pattaya/Bangkok/Hua Hin etc etc are raping women because they pay a bargirl for consensual sex because her kids are starving and suffering due to poverty.....I'm off for a lie down to contemplate my sins of the past...

I really do believe so. In my view, if the bar girls were able to get other jobs that paid decent money they would most definitely choose those other jobs. So they are in a way forced into this profession, sometimes not just driven by economic conditions but trafficking, and are forced to have sex with strange men for money. Just because the world, the governments, their families or whoever is not able to provide them the education and/or job opportunities.

In the perfect world, these girls would have gotten a decent education and there would have been jobs available for them and they wouldn't have been forced into selling their bodies for money. So it is "economic rape" based on what they have been provided by the society.

And as I said earlier, I am not trying to trivialize the plight of women/girls that have been forcibly raped. But let's consider this, a girl/woman who is forced to sell her body also has to cope with the fact that may be if she could have done something different she would have been spared this shitty "job". You hear people talking about getting up in the morning and going to a job they don't like and how they dread it. Can you even begin to imagine what a girl/woman, who sells her body for money, might feel about going to her "job"? And it is not a one-off, it happens day after day after day.

I am not condemning anyone here. Everyone has a right to choose what they do.

[MB1]

Very interesting read so far! And this one comes close to the verdict in the Delhi rape case, which on the face of it appears to be the correct one.

I have but a few things to add here.

First off - I recently met a 40 something Thai woman, who said she was raped five years ago by five people and then they threw her into a river to die, but a fisherman saved her life. She was disowned by her family because this happened and she wanted to go to the police. She hasn't spoken to her family since, but they made sure that she wasn't able to file the case. How they accomplished that, she didn't want to get into. It was getting very hard for her to talk about this by this part, and I chose not to push her further. Thankfully, she is doing relatively alright now and has since been able to start her own business far far away from her home city.

Although, I don't have any statistics to cite, I think it is a safe bet to say that Thailand does not do a whole lot better than say India.

Second - someone mentioned the "Indian trash" - I hope they realize that not all Indian men are rapists. But I will also add at this point that there is a problem in that country on how women are treated. But that is a much larger discussion and probably not fit for this thread.

About the BG issue. I think it is kind of a rape. Not to trivialize the sufferings of women such as mentioned earlier, but paying for an intercourse where one party is most likely doing it because she is unable to provide for herself or her family is an "economic rape". It is similar to a gun being pointed at her, of course the "gun" here being the one of hunger and starvation or watching her kids suffer due to poverty. I do understand that there are some BGs who choose to do what they do for other reasons, but I believe the vast majority don't.

So according to you, it's "economic rape" because of hunger and starvation or watching her kids suffer due to poverty, this thread just gets better, talk about demeaning the meaning of rape.

All the guy's in Pattaya/Bangkok/Hua Hin etc etc are raping women because they pay a bargirl for consensual sex because her kids are starving and suffering due to poverty.....I'm off for a lie down to contemplate my sins of the past...

I really do believe so. In my view, if the bar girls were able to get other jobs that paid decent money they would most definitely choose those other jobs. So they are in a way forced into this profession, sometimes not just driven by economic conditions but trafficking, and are forced to have sex with strange men for money. Just because the world, the governments, their families or whoever is not able to provide them the education and/or job opportunities.

In the perfect world, these girls would have gotten a decent education and there would have been jobs available for them and they wouldn't have been forced into selling their bodies for money. So it is "economic rape" based on what they have been provided by the society.

And as I said earlier, I am not trying to trivialize the plight of women/girls that have been forcibly raped. But let's consider this, a girl/woman who is forced to sell her body also has to cope with the fact that may be if she could have done something different she would have been spared this shitty "job". You hear people talking about getting up in the morning and going to a job they don't like and how they dread it. Can you even begin to imagine what a girl/woman, who sells her body for money, might feel about going to her "job"? And it is not a one-off, it happens day after day after day.

I am not condemning anyone here. Everyone has a right to choose what they do.

Women in the West are prostitutes and afforded decent education, I live in a city where there is a big University population and guess what, some of the students are prostitutes or lap dancers, work in the sex industry, they have a decent education but still choose to work in the sex industry.

Women whom are married work in the sex industry in the West by choice...

Why do they do it, up to them I say, but I'd guess to say they do it because they make far more money than sitting at supermarket till as a check out girl, no different IMO as to a Thai girl working at 7/11 or choosing to work in a bar.

Would you rather pick rice or work 12 hours in a tuna factory or earn far more potentially in the sex industry....????

[edwardandtubs]

I don't want my daughter (when she grows up) having to work or study under this pseudo-cultural patriarchal hierarchical classicism racist bull shit. I want her to live and study and work under the legal protections of equality of civilized society. The notion of her having to play the role of the polite employee or student and waiing some creepy old Thai lunatic does not sit well with me. I am starting think to think that her lack of interest in Thai language is a blessing in disguise.

Not to mention the bourgeois revisionist rightist imperialist crypto-fascists, comrade.

[edwardandtubs]

Would you rather pick rice or work 12 hours in a tuna factory or earn far more potentially in the sex industry....????

I'd rather pick rice. How about you?

[MB1]

Would you rather pick rice or work 12 hours in a tuna factory or earn far more potentially in the sex industry....????

I'd rather pick rice. How about you?

Well I certainly wouldn't be picking rice for 12 hours at the rates of pay a Thai receives thanks..

That leaves tuna or sex, you decide eh..

[itsrebel]

Would you rather pick rice or work 12 hours in a tuna factory or earn far more potentially in the sex industry....????

I'd rather pick rice. How about you?

Well I certainly wouldn't be picking rice for 12 hours at the rates of pay a Thai receives thanks..

That leaves tuna or sex, you decide eh..

This is precisely why this is not an apt comparison. You are comparing apples to oranges. In the west, there are minimum wage laws that are strictly adhered to. There is state-sponsored education that more or less everyone is entitled to. And you are right, picking rice here for 12 hours wouldn't give them enough money to feed their families. So they are forced to look elsewhere.

And as for the women who, despite having other options, choose to do this - we aren't talking about them. I am talking about the ones that don't really have other options.

I come from a country where there are no social benefits provided by the state and it all comes down to the family you are born in. Your options are dependent on what your family can provide for you in terms of education and other things. And I have seen it first hand, how people born in poor families have nothing really going for them. They do what they can get, simple.

As a society, we have failed these women. And as a society, many among us take advantage of them.

[edwardandtubs]

Would you rather pick rice or work 12 hours in a tuna factory or earn far more potentially in the sex industry....????

I'd rather pick rice. How about you?

Well I certainly wouldn't be picking rice for 12 hours at the rates of pay a Thai receives thanks..

That leaves tuna or sex, you decide eh..

You'd be on your knees sucking winkle?

[MB1]

Would you rather pick rice or work 12 hours in a tuna factory or earn far more potentially in the sex industry....????

I'd rather pick rice. How about you?

Well I certainly wouldn't be picking rice for 12 hours at the rates of pay a Thai receives thanks..

That leaves tuna or sex, you decide eh..

This is precisely why this is not an apt comparison. You are comparing apples to oranges. In the west, there are minimum wage laws that are strictly adhered to. There is state-sponsored education that more or less everyone is entitled to. And you are right, picking rice here for 12 hours wouldn't give them enough money to feed their families. So they are forced to look elsewhere.

And as for the women who, despite having other options, choose to do this - we aren't talking about them. I am talking about the ones that don't really have other options.

I come from a country where there are no social benefits provided by the state and it all comes down to the family you are born in. Your options are dependent on what your family can provide for you in terms of education and other things. And I have seen it first hand, how people born in poor families have nothing really going for them. They do what they can get, simple.

As a society, we have failed these women. And as a society, many among us take advantage of them.

Nothing to do with comparing apples and oranges, regardless of being in the West or Thailand, people still have a freedom of choice, people are not born prostitutes and if they choose to take that path voluntarily then up to them, it's one of the oldest professions in the world....

[MB1]

Would you rather pick rice or work 12 hours in a tuna factory or earn far more potentially in the sex industry....????

I'd rather pick rice. How about you?

Well I certainly wouldn't be picking rice for 12 hours at the rates of pay a Thai receives thanks..

That leaves tuna or sex, you decide eh..

You'd be on your knees sucking winkle?

No, now go get a life tubs and quit trolling, there's a good boy..