Affordable health insurance.

[sinbin]

Which hospital did you try? I'm trying to keep a tally of what is going on, where.

I tried my local hospital which is more a MRS than an hospital. But the staff there phoned their local head office/hospital in Nang Rong, Buriram Province. They said it only applied to migrant workers, end of.

[happyme]

HI my question is does this allpy to all Farang or only married ones

Thanks

[worgeordie]

I had been receiving free treatment and medicines for the past 2 years

for free at the local Government hospital,based on the yellow book.

So I went to the hospital on Thursday last, got the blood ,urine test,

seen the Doctor for 3-4 minutes, paid the Bht 2800 and was told

my card would be ready today Monday, the wife has just arrived

back with it, you have to pay Bht30 and supply picture page of

your passport,copy front and back of the card.every time you go.

I don't know if there is an age limit,I am 68,I also have BUPA but

that ends at 70 (when you most likely need it), the hospital I go

to is clean enough (maybe more so than some in UK), the Doctors

and Nurses are defiantly more caring and helpful ,so over all very

pleased to pay the Bht 2800, (could not understand how they could

treat me for free anyway)

I think they will make it law that all Farangs staying here will have to

have some form of health coverage ,

regards Worgeordie

[tpthai2]

Has anyone has success with this program as poster "worgeordie" did

in Chiang Mai?

[Sheryl]

I had been receiving free treatment and medicines for the past 2 years

for free at the local Government hospital,based on the yellow book.

So I went to the hospital on Thursday last, got the blood ,urine test,

seen the Doctor for 3-4 minutes, paid the Bht 2800 and was told

my card would be ready today Monday, the wife has just arrived

back with it, you have to pay Bht30 and supply picture page of

your passport,copy front and back of the card.every time you go.

I don't know if there is an age limit,I am 68,I also have BUPA but

that ends at 70 (when you most likely need it), the hospital I go

to is clean enough (maybe more so than some in UK), the Doctors

and Nurses are defiantly more caring and helpful ,so over all very

pleased to pay the Bht 2800, (could not understand how they could

treat me for free anyway)

I think they will make it law that all Farangs staying here will have to

have some form of health coverage ,

regards Worgeordie

Worgeordie,

What hospital was this? Thanks

[Sheryl]

HI my question is does this allpy to all Farang or only married ones

Thanks

Actually I think it is meant to apply only to migrant workers but due to somewhat vague wording in the directive some (not all) hospitals interpret it to mean all residents foreigners.

In either case marriage to a Thai has nothing to do with it.

[touch]

I can only reiterate that when I called the ministry for public health they were very aware that I was a foreigner living in Thailand and not a migrant worker from a neighboring country.

However, they actually used the wording "resident foreigner". What criteria they use to establish that is unclear.

[rcjoop]

Just returned from the registration procedure in Chiang Mai.

Last week I tried first at the SuanDok hospital and was sent to many places but in the end they had to admit that they did not know about is. I had with me a copy of the directive of the minister of health.

Next try was at the Nakornping hospital. This is the provincial hospital and there they knew about it and had no problems with me being a foreigner.

Went back today with copies of my passport, fresh certificate of residence from Immigration, copy of my partners ID card and a copy of her tabian baan.

Went to registration, blood and urine was collected and an xray taken. Paid 600 + 2200 and got a note to come back next week to pick up the card.

In the end they did not use the certificate of residence or the copy of the tabian baan of my partner.

So: not married and no yellow tabian baan but no problem registering.

[Sheryl]

Current tally:

Receipt of cards confirmed from:

Udon Thani Hospital

Pakchong Nana Hospital in Pakchong and Maharat Hospital in Korat

Chiang Rai Hospital

Sanam Chai Khet hospital in Chachengsao

Nakornping hospital in Chiang Mai

And possibly another location not yet specified (TV member Worgeordie)

Refused to issue card, said only for migrants:

Nang Rong Hospital, Buriram

[ricklev]

Just returned from the registration procedure in Chiang Mai.

Last week I tried first at the SuanDok hospital and was sent to many places but in the end they had to admit that they did not know about is. I had with me a copy of the directive of the minister of health.

Next try was at the Nakornping hospital. This is the provincial hospital and there they knew about it and had no problems with me being a foreigner.

Went back today with copies of my passport, fresh certificate of residence from Immigration, copy of my partners ID card and a copy of her tabian baan.

Went to registration, blood and urine was collected and an xray taken. Paid 600 + 2200 and got a note to come back next week to pick up the card.

In the end they did not use the certificate of residence or the copy of the tabian baan of my partner.

So: not married and no yellow tabian baan but no problem registering.

That's a pretty serious decision on the part of the Nakornping hospital. There must be several thousand retired foreigners living in the Chiang Mai area. Of course most, by far, will not utilize the public health system. Still.

[Firefan]

Still need to hear from anybody getting the card/cover in Bangkok area. When I find the time to go again (Chula as a university hospital did not issue these) - believe it is Lerdsin hospital covering amphur Sathorn. Cheers!

[rcjoop]

Have you ever noticed how many Burmese ?? the number of farang will not make much difference

[Sheryl]

How many migrant workers will enroll remains to be seen.

For them, the fee is a barrier. many only make 2-3,000 baht in a month.

[maingmoom]

How many migrant workers will enroll remains to be seen.

For them, the fee is a barrier. many only make 2-3,000 baht in a month.

At the time I was enrolling there must have been at least 30 Cambodian's also enrolling. I had the same thought how can they afford what is such a lot of money to them.

Maingmoom

[harrry]

How many migrant workers will enroll remains to be seen.

For them, the fee is a barrier. many only make 2-3,000 baht in a month.

At the time I was enrolling there must have been at least 30 Cambodian's also enrolling. I had the same thought how can they afford what is such a lot of money to them.

Maingmoom

When I enrolled there were 40 Burmese. It was Monday a work day. It was suggested I did not come on Saturday as there would be a lot of Burmese people there. There seem to be a constant stream in Chiangrai.

For the information of those in Chiangrai registration is not done at the main hospital Building it is at the Chiangrai 2 hospital it is called Sar glang gow .if that helps anyone.

[dottie]

Hi, I would like to add some info based on my experiences with government hospitals here, especially since I recently posted a query on TV about a special card (the "dtang daaw card") which just happened to have been mentioned along the way in this thread.

Our background: farang with half-Thai child who has a disability. I am on the yellow tabien baan while my kid is on the blue tabien baan for our address. I work and pay tax in Thailand, not married to a Thai.

I go to the Siriraj for my own treatment, after having been operated on there about 4 years ago and was an antenatal patient there.

My kid was born at Phra Mongkut hospital (the army hospital near Victory Monument), which is where she gets treated now under the "30 baht health care" scheme. She also goes to Ramathibodi hospital and Chula where she gets treated under the Thai disability scheme (she has a disability card which means that she should get free treatment in any Thai government hospital, not just the one she is registered at).

What I have found out over the years...

- Main Siriraj hospital: they have treated me at the same rate as a Thai, i.e. 50 baht to see the doctor, 900-odd baht for a battery of pre-op blood tests and a chest x-ray, around 60,000 baht for a major operation including 3 nights in a private room. No need to show any cards or get membership or anything (but I did claim on private insurance for most of operation cost), just register as a patient at the hospital.

- New private part of the hospital (Siriraj Piyamaharajkarun): dual pricing for foreigners and Thais. The only way to get the Thai rate is to have the "dtang daaw card" which I got my company's office manager to investigate and she found out that this is only for nationalities such as Burmese, Cambodians, etc. According to the admissions staff, tabien baans are not accepted by the hospital and neither are tax certificates proving you pay tax in Thailand. The farang price is 20% more than for Thais so, about a month ago, I was quoted 200,000-220,000 baht for a laparoscopic operation at Siriraj Piyamaharajkarun and it can be done within a few days (to compare, the same operation is about 60,000 baht in the main hospital but the waiting list is long at about 5-6 months).

- My base hospital at Chareonkrung Pracharak: I have used my government health card there for myself ("rap rong sit gaan raksaa payabaan" card). That government card was issued based on my paying social security contributions which I have heard you can pay voluntarily if you are not employed. I don't know if this is the same as the 30 baht card because I was told at Phra Mongkut Hospital that a 30 baht card is not issued anymore to Thais and they just use their citizen's ID number, which my kid has on her birth certificate.

My registration at this hospital is based on my address and I got the card off my employer who seemed to think they didn't need to give it to me, tssk tssk. You can apply to change your base hospital but only around March each year, I believe. I tried to change it to the Siriraj but that got laughed at because I don't live near enough to the Siriraj and anyway that hospital has too many applicants as it is!

When I used my government health card at Chareonkrung Pracharak, I had to present myself as early as possible in the morning (well before 8am) at the hospital's social security desk with a crowd of other poor folks and then we all queued for a long time before I got to see the doc. That consultation and treatment (basic) was free for me. Personally, I found this hospital was not always the cleanest and also encountered one decidedly odd doctor so my visits there have been rare!

Main Siriraj Hospital: staff are great, and are helpful and take good care of you (unlike my experiences at Chula where many mistakes were made and too many staff didn't seem to give 2 hoots about their patients, which I attribute to being burdened by poor administrative practices causing extra work unnecessarily). Siriraj is very busy but they have quite an efficient system so they can process a lot of patients. Having said that, the doctors have always taken their time with me - never rushed. The hospital is pretty new in many places and the equipment is pretty good, even if the surroundings haven't been upgraded.

Siriraj Piyamaharajkarun: glossy new facility, still getting up and running as far as I can see. High prices. Private rooms are more than 6,000 baht a night, I think.

Phra Mongkut Hospital: very modern main building and well organized. I paid about 45,000 baht for a caesarian delivery there (private room for 5 nights - not very comfortable beds though) and my kid stayed in NICU for a month on the 30 baht scheme at a total cost of about 500 baht if I recall.

Ramathibodi Hospital: we go to 2 different parts of the hospital, the main public part which is typical government hospital and very busy, and the evening clinics and special facilities at the semi-private Prateb building which is very clean and nicely organized.

Chulalongkorn Hospital: undoubtedly there are some very skilled doctors there but getting access to them is very difficult. You usually have to make do with the junior doctors and have to fight tooth and nail to see a senior guy. The admin processes are pretty poor here and this makes extra work for staff, so they are quite stressed and more overworked than they need to be. They made many mistakes with a whole range of quite critical stuff in a couple of different departments so I have now given up on this hospital. FYI: The Early Intervention unit for kids is good though - really nice staff but they tend to more focussed on Down Syndrome than other stuff.

My kid claims on the 30 baht and the disability schemes each time, which requires going early to register with her birth certificate and hospital card. It's quite onerous to do this each time but it gets us basic treatment and medication for free.

So, my conclusions based on my experiences are:

- government hospitals in Bangkok will treat you at the same rate as a self-paying Thai in their main units (their semi-private wings are likely to charge you more than a Thai and possibly as much as a top-flight private hospital)

- you can use your "rap rong sit gaan raksaa payabaan" card, which you can get as a foreigner paying social security contributions, at your base hospital which is indicated on the card and is based on where you live but it will mean registering first each visit and will mean a long wait and will get you only basic care for free (in my experience). - the "dtaang daaw" card seems to be unavailable to farang

- Claiming under the 30 baht or the disability scheme means registering ("yern sit") each visit at your base hospital....sigh. And each hospital requires slightly different combinations of documents in different quantities. Be prepared to queue multiple times at different counters. Quite confusing even for Thai speakers. Also, I sometimes feel that the system is set up to place obstacles in your way when trying to claim...for example, when we had to get a polysomnography done for my kid, we paid the first time and then the cashier told us that we could get it free next time if we got a referral from our base hospital. When we presented the documents to do that next time, we were told "oh no, you had to submit the documents 14 days before" (there had been no mention of this originally).

- And the so-called free health care is very limited in what it actually covers. For example, my kid needs daily injections which we have to pay for - NOT covered by the government. However, we get it at just above cost-price. She also needs a piece of medical equipment while asleep...again, not covered (government officials get the more basic version of this equipment for free but not the more complex device which kids with this disability usually require). I have even met hospital staff whose own kids are really sick (with stuff like cancer) and they didn't know if their care would be totally covered - even if it ultimately was, they were going through so much stress about the cost.

I have now decided to pay for my care at government hospitals since it's not a lot of money and it means there are fewer hoops to jump through each and every time.

And I still have private health insurance for the bigger stuff. It's worth not letting it lapse, in my view.

Sorry for the long post but I thought there might be some useful info in there somewhere...

[harrry]

Hi, I would like to add some info based on my experiences with government hospitals here, especially since I recently posted a query on TV about a special card (the "dtang daaw card") which just happened to have been mentioned along the way in this thread.

Our background: farang with half-Thai child who has a disability. I am on the yellow tabien baan while my kid is on the blue tabien baan for our address. I work and pay tax in Thailand, not married to a Thai.

I go to the Siriraj for my own treatment, after having been operated on there about 4 years ago and was an antenatal patient there.

My kid was born at Phra Mongkut hospital (the army hospital near Victory Monument), which is where she gets treated now under the "30 baht health care" scheme. She also goes to Ramathibodi hospital and Chula where she gets treated under the Thai disability scheme (she has a disability card which means that she should get free treatment in any Thai government hospital, not just the one she is registered at).

What I have found out over the years...

- Main Siriraj hospital: they have treated me at the same rate as a Thai, i.e. 50 baht to see the doctor, 900-odd baht for a battery of pre-op blood tests and a chest x-ray, around 60,000 baht for a major operation including 3 nights in a private room. No need to show any cards or get membership or anything (but I did claim on private insurance for most of operation cost), just register as a patient at the hospital.

- New private part of the hospital (Siriraj Piyamaharajkarun): dual pricing for foreigners and Thais. The only way to get the Thai rate is to have the "dtang daaw card" which I got my company's office manager to investigate and she found out that this is only for nationalities such as Burmese, Cambodians, etc. According to the admissions staff, tabien baans are not accepted by the hospital and neither are tax certificates proving you pay tax in Thailand. The farang price is 20% more than for Thais so, about a month ago, I was quoted 200,000-220,000 baht for a laparoscopic operation at Siriraj Piyamaharajkarun and it can be done within a few days (to compare, the same operation is about 60,000 baht in the main hospital but the waiting list is long at about 5-6 months).

- My base hospital at Chareonkrung Pracharak: I have used my government health card there for myself ("rap rong sit gaan raksaa payabaan" card). That government card was issued based on my paying social security contributions which I have heard you can pay voluntarily if you are not employed. I don't know if this is the same as the 30 baht card because I was told at Phra Mongkut Hospital that a 30 baht card is not issued anymore to Thais and they just use their citizen's ID number, which my kid has on her birth certificate.

My registration at this hospital is based on my address and I got the card off my employer who seemed to think they didn't need to give it to me, tssk tssk. You can apply to change your base hospital but only around March each year, I believe. I tried to change it to the Siriraj but that got laughed at because I don't live near enough to the Siriraj and anyway that hospital has too many applicants as it is!

When I used my government health card at Chareonkrung Pracharak, I had to present myself as early as possible in the morning (well before 8am) at the hospital's social security desk with a crowd of other poor folks and then we all queued for a long time before I got to see the doc. That consultation and treatment (basic) was free for me. Personally, I found this hospital was not always the cleanest and also encountered one decidedly odd doctor so my visits there have been rare!

Main Siriraj Hospital: staff are great, and are helpful and take good care of you (unlike my experiences at Chula where many mistakes were made and too many staff didn't seem to give 2 hoots about their patients, which I attribute to being burdened by poor administrative practices causing extra work unnecessarily). Siriraj is very busy but they have quite an efficient system so they can process a lot of patients. Having said that, the doctors have always taken their time with me - never rushed. The hospital is pretty new in many places and the equipment is pretty good, even if the surroundings haven't been upgraded.

Siriraj Piyamaharajkarun: glossy new facility, still getting up and running as far as I can see. High prices. Private rooms are more than 6,000 baht a night, I think.

Phra Mongkut Hospital: very modern main building and well organized. I paid about 45,000 baht for a caesarian delivery there (private room for 5 nights - not very comfortable beds though) and my kid stayed in NICU for a month on the 30 baht scheme at a total cost of about 500 baht if I recall.

Ramathibodi Hospital: we go to 2 different parts of the hospital, the main public part which is typical government hospital and very busy, and the evening clinics and special facilities at the semi-private Prateb building which is very clean and nicely organized.

Chulalongkorn Hospital: undoubtedly there are some very skilled doctors there but getting access to them is very difficult. You usually have to make do with the junior doctors and have to fight tooth and nail to see a senior guy. The admin processes are pretty poor here and this makes extra work for staff, so they are quite stressed and more overworked than they need to be. They made many mistakes with a whole range of quite critical stuff in a couple of different departments so I have now given up on this hospital. FYI: The Early Intervention unit for kids is good though - really nice staff but they tend to more focussed on Down Syndrome than other stuff.

My kid claims on the 30 baht and the disability schemes each time, which requires going early to register with her birth certificate and hospital card. It's quite onerous to do this each time but it gets us basic treatment and medication for free.

So, my conclusions based on my experiences are:

- government hospitals in Bangkok will treat you at the same rate as a self-paying Thai in their main units (their semi-private wings are likely to charge you more than a Thai and possibly as much as a top-flight private hospital)

- you can use your "rap rong sit gaan raksaa payabaan" card, which you can get as a foreigner paying social security contributions, at your base hospital which is indicated on the card and is based on where you live but it will mean registering first each visit and will mean a long wait and will get you only basic care for free (in my experience). - the "dtaang daaw" card seems to be unavailable to farang

- Claiming under the 30 baht or the disability scheme means registering ("yern sit") each visit at your base hospital....sigh. And each hospital requires slightly different combinations of documents in different quantities. Be prepared to queue multiple times at different counters. Quite confusing even for Thai speakers. Also, I sometimes feel that the system is set up to place obstacles in your way when trying to claim...for example, when we had to get a polysomnography done for my kid, we paid the first time and then the cashier told us that we could get it free next time if we got a referral from our base hospital. When we presented the documents to do that next time, we were told "oh no, you had to submit the documents 14 days before" (there had been no mention of this originally).

- And the so-called free health care is very limited in what it actually covers. For example, my kid needs daily injections which we have to pay for - NOT covered by the government. However, we get it at just above cost-price. She also needs a piece of medical equipment while asleep...again, not covered (government officials get the more basic version of this equipment for free but not the more complex device which kids with this disability usually require). I have even met hospital staff whose own kids are really sick (with stuff like cancer) and they didn't know if their care would be totally covered - even if it ultimately was, they were going through so much stress about the cost.

I have now decided to pay for my care at government hospitals since it's not a lot of money and it means there are fewer hoops to jump through each and every time.

And I still have private health insurance for the bigger stuff. It's worth not letting it lapse, in my view.

Sorry for the long post but I thought there might be some useful info in there somewhere...

Useful information but does it belong in a topic about the NEW scheme for foreigners . Posting it in a new topic would have been more relevent.

[Sheryl]

.....My base hospital at Chareonkrung Pracharak: I have used my government health card there for myself ("rap rong sit gaan raksaa payabaan" card). That government card was issued based on my paying social security contributions which I have heard you can pay voluntarily if you are not employed. I don't know if this is the same as the 30 baht card because I was told at Phra Mongkut Hospital that a 30 baht card is not issued anymore to Thais and they just use their citizen's ID number...

The "30 baht" scheme and SS are 2 different systems. Thailand Universal Coverage is composed of 3 separate schemes: Social Security, s special SS for civil servants, and the "30 baht" scheme for all citizens not covered under either of the first two.

You cannot optionally pay to get SS if unemployed unless you were already enrolled as an employee. Once enrolled, you can keep it for life if you keep up the payments, i.e. after leaving work, arrange to keep paying in yourself.

Re the "dtaang daaw" card, as this thread shows, many provincial hospitals are now issuing it to farangs though I agree that the system seems to have been designed with migrants in mind and so far no accounts of any place in Bkk doing this.

[dottie]

Yes harrry, it could have written it as a new post but when I first started writing I was thinking more about the "dtaang daaw"card which had already been mentioned here in this thread. Sorry to be a bit rambling...it's one of those days.

And Sheryl, thanks for that info. That's useful. For the past 2 years I have been working closely with staff in the government healthcare system and they often admit that, half the time they don't know the system either, so it's a case of slogging on with gleaning information when and where I can!

[Guest Gandtee]

Today, my wife inquired at the Queen Sirikit Hospital, Rayong and was told that it is not a government hospital but a Naval hospital, so this does not apply. She was directed to the nearby hospital and was told 'We have heard something about this but have not been ordered to do it' Ah well. I wait for the update.

[Guest Gandtee]

I forgot to mention that the wife was also told that the farang would have to have a yellow card. Would that be a Residence visa?

[Issangeorge]

OK add Kuchinarai Crown Prince Hospital, (a district hospital in Kalasin Province) to the list. At the beginning of September my wife was approached by someone who worked in the hospital and told that her husband could get a card very similar to the gold card the Thais had. Today we went to the hospital to apply. I arrived at 11am, presented my passport and coppies of all used pages and my arrival card, a coppy of my wife's ID card and her House Book and they wanted to see my Hospital Card, that's it. I then had a chest xray and gave a urine sample and blood sample, by this time it was noon, and they told us to come back at 2pm. I went back saw a doctor paid 2,800 baht and then went to a room where she put all the info in her computer and took my picture with a web cam and said she would phone us when the card was ready, I was done by 4pm. While I was there , there were two other farang also getting their cards. The whole thing was very professionally done and seemed that they had a well established procedure. I other words it seemed that it was well st up and was a lasting thing.

[DonaldBattles]

Looks like we are slowly getting there \. One province at a time. I think that this was meant for migrant neighboring country workers but it is working for us also. These hospitals like any outside money they can get they hands on. Keep up the good work.

Friday I am going to the Chiang Rai Army hospital to get a complete physical exam. A friend told me that he did this without the Tabien Baan and it cost him 1300 Baht.

[Sheryl]

I forgot to mention that the wife was also told that the farang would have to have a yellow card. Would that be a Residence visa?

They probably mean a yellow tabien ban (house registration) , but if you don't have one then either a lease/rental agreement or a letter from immigration stating where you live. Idea being to establish that you live in Thailand and are not a tourist.

Visa type and annual extensions does that as well but doubt the hospitals would know how to read/interpret them.

What is the name of this hospital?

[Issangeorge]

Kuchinarai Hospital seemed to pay special attention to my extension for stay stamp, so obviously they could read it, and I didn't have any other proof that I lived here full time. No yellow book or letter from immigration.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 6 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Guest Gandtee]

We call the hospital Kilometre 10 hospital. It's adjacent to Plutaluang railway station on the 331 coming away from Queen Sirikit Naval Hospital.

[scooterboy]

Just returned from the registration procedure in Chiang Mai.

Last week I tried first at the SuanDok hospital and was sent to many places but in the end they had to admit that they did not know about is. I had with me a copy of the directive of the minister of health.

Next try was at the Nakornping hospital. This is the provincial hospital and there they knew about it and had no problems with me being a foreigner.

Went back today with copies of my passport, fresh certificate of residence from Immigration, copy of my partners ID card and a copy of her tabian baan.

Went to registration, blood and urine was collected and an xray taken. Paid 600 + 2200 and got a note to come back next week to pick up the card.

In the end they did not use the certificate of residence or the copy of the tabian baan of my partner.

So: not married and no yellow tabian baan but no problem registering.

"I had with me a copy of the directive of the minister of health."

Do you (or anyone else) have a link to this directive (in Thai and/or English)? I'd like to download the directive, as my local hospital would never consider giving any insurance card - without seeing the written directive first.

Thanks for any help

[rcjoop]

See post 86 and the link there

http://203.157.12.21/cmshigthai/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fwf2800.pdf

The first page is the directive signed by the minister, the rest is detailing by the ministry of health.

The directive names three groups:

- those waiting to be added to the prakan sangkhom scheme

- children

- foreigners in general

[yermanee]

Usefull links :

Ministry of Public Health
http://www.thaigov.go.th/...

Information booklet - Department of Public Health
http://www.tro.moph.go.th/download/Strategy/boardmeeting072556/1.3.1board.pdf

Information booklet - Saiyairakhospita (PowerPoint)
http://www.saiyairakhospital.com/back-office/upload/document/Health%20card.pptx

Newspaper - thairath
http://www.thairath.co.th/content/edu/333060.

Hfocus News System
http://www.hfocus.org/content/2013/08/4343

Yermanee

[KhunBENQ]

I haven't ckecked all posts regarding the "Health Card for foreigner", so excuse if already posted...

A description of the process in english (german):

http://udon-news.com/en/law/health-insurance-for-foreigners

The description contains the links to the ministerial decree and information booklet (so far only in Thai).

The description is a live experience as it seems and contains some "restrictions/special case" which does not seem to apply generally (married to Thai, yellow house book).