circumcision

[sinbin]

Perhaps the WHA is concerned about countries with lack of personal hygiene (soap) and countries with no education on transmitted diseases.

NOT, first world countries with known knowledge of risks and excellent hygiene practice. NOT archaic procedures.

"Perhaps' doesn't enter the equasion read the report. Here's part of it.

WHO and UNAIDS announce recommendations from expert consultation on male circumcision for HIV prevention

Paris/Geneva, 28 March 2007 - In response to the urgent need to reduce the number of new HIV infections globally, the World Health Organization (WHO) and the UNAIDS Secretariat convened an international expert consultation to determine whether male circumcision should be recommended for the prevention of HIV infection.

Based on the evidence presented, which was considered to be compelling, experts attending the consultation recommended that male circumcision now be recognized as an additional important intervention to reduce the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men. The international consultation, which was held from 6-8 March 2007 in Montreux, Switzerland, was attended by participants representing a wide range of stakeholders, including governments, civil society, researchers, human rights and women's health advocates, young people, funding agencies and implementing partners.

"The recommendations represent a significant step forward in HIV prevention", said Dr Kevin De Cock, Director, HIV/AIDS Department, World Health Organization. "Countries with high rates of heterosexual HIV infection and low rates of male circumcision now have an additional intervention which can reduce the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men. Scaling up male circumcision in such countries will result in immediate benefit to individuals. However, it will be a number of years before we can expect to see an impact on the epidemic from such investment."

They're talking 'Global' not some backward countries as you try to implicate Transam.

[Arkady]

The legallity of it is another discussion I am more than welcome to have, but as of yet no one has been able to justify why it is carried out in this day and age, forget sub saharan Africa 2000 years ago.

Firstly can we stop calling this "mutilation"? Done in a correct medical facility the proper definition should be cosmetic surgery. Which is what's being refered to by the op. As for justifying this procedure then you need to ask 'The World Health Organisation' and 'UNAIDS' who

recommend circumcision as part of a comprehensive program for prevention of HIV transmission in areas with high endemic rates of HIV

If my son is going to travel the world and do the things that I think all parents expect their sons to do then I'm for prevention. And speaking as a supporter of circumcision, until you've seen both side of the story I don't think you should really comment. Me, I got surgery aged 14. At that age it came as a great embarrasement to me and only wish my father had seen good sense in getting me done as a baby.

Contrary to popular myths it has no affect on your sex life whatsoever.

You were a lucky chap having an active sex life before the age of 14.

[Jingthing]

What percentage of cut adults make a thing about the "damage" that has been done to them? Clearly, much less than one percent probably fired up by emotionally charged radical anti-circumcision propaganda on the internet. Personally, I am very grateful my parents did this loving thing for me at a time I can't remember now, and yes the skilled surgeon did a marvelous job of it, no complaints. Who needs the extra baggage with all it's now documented health issues? The poster who called such parents "selfish" doesn't have a clue!

On the sexual pleasure question, I have read that cut men have a greater tendency to explore OTHER erogenous zones on their bodies and what is wrong with that? The entire body is a sex organ with the BRAIN being the most important one.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Jingthing

[MeMock]

something so crucial and integral to the male identity should not be trifled with.

If a bit of skin on your old fella is that important then something else must be missing from you life.

[transam]

Those who had it done purely as a ritual as a babe will NEVER admit it was wrong. Suppose cos as they grew up their todger was just a todger and they know know different.

Isn't it strange that most of our planets mammals have skin covering stuff, how strange eh. BUT, they do not suffer rituals do they.

[sinbin]

You were a lucky chap having an active sex life before the age of 14.

Yeah I suppose I could have explained it a little better?

[sinbin]

Those who had it done purely as a ritual as a babe will NEVER admit it was wrong. Suppose cos as they grew up their todger was just a todger and they know know different.

Isn't it strange that most of our planets mammals have skin covering stuff, how strange eh. BUT, they do not suffer rituals do they.

Animals do have rituals and in those rituals they get injured and killed . The main one is the mating ritual.As for comparing humans to animals, then you are really struggling on this matter. My last post on something that's gone off topic.

[Jingthing]

Those who had it done purely as a ritual as a babe will NEVER admit it was wrong. Suppose cos as they grew up their todger was just a todger and they know know different.

Isn't it strange that most of our planets mammals have skin covering stuff, how strange eh. BUT, they do not suffer rituals do they.

You're focus on "ritual" just clouds the issue. It's a MEDICAL procedure. Sometimes there is religious involvement and sometimes not. Personally I think religious based practitioners need to be fully qualified medically and the procedure done in a clinical setting. I think that's a valid issue, if it's to be done, it needs to be done as safely as possible.

As far as human practices being different than other animals ... so this is news?

Edited October 7, 2013 by Jingthing

[transam]

Those who had it done purely as a ritual as a babe will NEVER admit it was wrong. Suppose cos as they grew up their todger was just a todger and they know know different.

Isn't it strange that most of our planets mammals have skin covering stuff, how strange eh. BUT, they do not suffer rituals do they.

You're focus on "ritual" just clouds the issue. It's a MEDICAL procedure. Sometimes there is religious involvement and sometimes not. Personally I think religious based practitioners need to be fully qualified medically and the procedure done in a clinical setting. I think that's a valid issue, if it's to be done, it needs to be done as safely as possible.

As far as human practices being different than other animals ... so this is news?

, a typical excuse reply.

[Jingthing]

I respect all people's right not to circumcise their own children. I just wish parents get informed on all the issues and make a rational decision. Some will choose to do it and some won't. There is no rational argument for everyone to do it and also no rational argument for nobody to do it.

[transam]

I respect all people's right not to circumcise their own children. I just wish parents get informed on all the issues and make a rational decision. Some will choose to do it and some won't. There is no rational argument for everyone to do it and also no rational argument for nobody to do it.

There IS a rational argument not to tamper with a babes bits. Their bits belong to them. Noooooooo question. If we were not meant to have these bits it would have been sorted out by evolution. NO OTHER mammal on our plant needs being cut about. I am fed up with reading excuses for a babe being cut up via thoughts of a period when folk didn't understand about medical stuff that we do now. It is an unnecessary procedure from a bi-gone era.

[Jingthing]

The origin of the practice was indeed religious, across many cultures.

The modern reality of the practice is sometimes religious and sometimes not.

Please refer to the links already provided for the medical advantages of being cut.

[transam]

The origin of the practice was indeed religious, across many cultures.

The modern reality of the practice is sometimes religious and sometimes not.

Please refer to the links already provided for the medical advantages of being cut.

Rubbish. Gawd.

[Jingthing]

The origin of the practice was indeed religious, across many cultures.

The modern reality of the practice is sometimes religious and sometimes not.

Please refer to the links already provided for the medical advantages of being cut.

Rubbish. Gawd.

How is it rubbish?

Like I said, in my generation of American males, the vast majority were cut, and the vast majority were cut in hospitals with no religious connotation whatsoever.

The links speak for themselves. There is objective proof of lower risk for certain health problems for the lucky among us who are cut.

Just saying rubbish doesn't cut it. It says nothing except that you don't agree which is no kind of debate argument.

Cheers.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Jingthing

[transam]

The origin of the practice was indeed religious, across many cultures.

The modern reality of the practice is sometimes religious and sometimes not.

Please refer to the links already provided for the medical advantages of being cut.

Rubbish. Gawd.

How is it rubbish?

Like I said, in my generation of American males, the vast majority were cut, and the vast majority were cut in hospitals with no religious connotation whatsoever.

The links speak for themselves. There is objective proof of lower risk for certain health problems for the lucky among us who are cut.

Just saying rubbish doesn't cut it. It says nothing except that you don't agree which is no kind of debate argument.

Cheers.

I have said lots on this subject with no real answers other than ''it's OK''. Rubbish. I know your background and why your todger was tampered with, nooooo medical reason what so ever. A ritual that belongs in the history books.

[Jingthing]

I have said lots on this subject with no real answers other than ''it's OK''. Rubbish. I know your background and why your todger was tampered with, nooooo medical reason what so ever. A ritual that belongs in the history books.

ALL of my peers were cut as well. Mostly Christians and where/when I grew up we didn't have Latinos yet (tend to be uncut). I never heard any complaints from them either. I was NOT ritually circumcised. My "background" in this context is being an American male in my generation. It was just the done thing then for most ALL. Now it's more like 50 50 as I've said before. There wasn't the medical evidence back then of the multiple medical benefits of circumcision. Now there is and the procedure is done less. Go figure.

Why was circumcision so pervasive in my generation in the U.S.? The medical justification may have been hygiene but there was of course a cultural conformity element (everyone does it, make it like Daddy's) and also I think I recall reading the root may have been a puritanical reason to discourage masturbation. The latter reason is of course absurd. I'm too lazy to research that right now so my memory may be wrong on that.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Jingthing

[transam]

I have said lots on this subject with no real answers other than ''it's OK''. Rubbish. I know your background and why your todger was tampered with, nooooo medical reason what so ever. A ritual that belongs in the history books.

ALL of my peers were cut as well. Mostly Christians and where/when I grew up we didn't have Latinos yet (tend to be uncut). I never heard any complaints from them either. I was NOT ritually circumcised. My "background" in this context is being an American male in my generation. It was just the done thing then for most ALL. Now it's more like 50 50 as I've said before. There wasn't the medical evidence back then of the multiple medical benefits of circumcision. Now there is and the procedure is done less. Go figure.

Why was circumcision so pervasive in my generation in the U.S.? The medical justification may have been hygiene but there was of course a cultural conformity element (everyone does it, make it like Daddy's) and also I think I recall reading the root may have been a puritanical reason to discourage masturbation. The latter reason is of course absurd. I'm too lazy to research that right now so my memory may be wrong on that.

Obviously where l come from certain stuff was not tampered with unless necessary..

[Jingthing]

Obviously where l come from certain stuff was not tampered with unless necessary..

Understood. I don't think anyone is saying that the usual reason for infant circumcision is medical NECESSITY. There can be benefits without it being necessary. Basically, it's a choice with some pros and cons, including ethical concerns and risks which hopefully are well considered by parents considering doing the procedure. If it was really that horrible, it would be illegal in most countries, which it isn't, and if it was really that wonderful, it would be required in most countries, which it isn't. Sorry, folks, this is a grey area type thing, whether you like it or not. Trying to paint this as clear cut, good vs. evil, just doesn't wash for this issue.

The thing that bothers me about the rhetoric on this issue is that the anti-circumcision side seems to be dominated by fanatics who don't think optional circumcision is ever acceptable. People who favor choice on this issue aren't trying to force people to do this. In other words, much more reasonable. Obviously an exception would be religious people and tribes with this ritual, but that's a side issue, and those people are not trying to force people outside their groups to do it.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Jingthing

[itchybum]

When I was about 32yo I lost a largish chunk of skin from my right foot.

I miss that piece of skin so.

Thinking to have a seance to see if we can reconnect.

[rgs2001uk]

The legallity of it is another discussion I am more than welcome to have, but as of yet no one has been able to justify why it is carried out in this day and age, forget sub saharan Africa 2000 years ago.

Firstly can we stop calling this "mutilation"? Done in a correct medical facility the proper definition should be cosmetic surgery. Which is what's being refered to by the op. As for justifying this procedure then you need to ask 'The World Health Organisation' and 'UNAIDS' who

recommend circumcision as part of a comprehensive program for prevention of HIV transmission in areas with high endemic rates of HIV

If my son is going to travel the world and do the things that I think all parents expect their sons to do then I'm for prevention. And speaking as a supporter of circumcision, until you've seen both side of the story I don't think you should really comment. Me, I got surgery aged 14. At that age it came as a great embarrasement to me and only wish my father had seen good sense in getting me done as a baby.

Contrary to popular myths it has no affect on your sex life whatsoever.

If concerned about AIDS, the answer is simple, wear a condom.

I would say his chances of catching STDs will be much higher than catching AIDS, whats the figures for cut or uncut ref STDs?

Personally its your choice you are the father, but to say its being done to prevent AIDS to me is bordering on paranoia.

As for the WHO or UNAIDS, I will keep my opinions of them to myself.

[downtown]

something so crucial and integral to the male identity should not be trifled with.

If a bit of skin on your old fella is that important then something else must be missing from you life.

nowt missing from my life chump

just find it selfish and self righteous in the extreme for a parent to do that. bit like, forcing their relegious beliefs on their offspring, like.

[itchybum]

something so crucial and integral to the male identity should not be trifled with.

If a bit of skin on your old fella is that important then something else must be missing from you life.

nowt missing from my life chump

just find it selfish and self righteous in the extreme for a parent to do that. bit like, forcing their relegious beliefs on their offspring, like.

Just like all the other nasty decisions parents make for their children.

Your kids must be feral.......

[bina]

if it is for religious reasons then either hallal or jewish mohel can do it; they are usually very well trained and do follow ups with the babies after... habad house in chiang mai/rai would be a good place to start.

and hallal circumcisors might be better if the baby is over a week old as the process involves more blood as the baby grows older and hallal (muslem) circumsicion, unlike jewish circimcision, is not neccesarily done at 8 days but sometimes at two weeks or a month old . here in israel i dont know any muslems that do it at age 13 , before somebody claims that is the case. here, most muslems either do it with a jewish doctor in a hospital or a mohel or a trained muslem mohel.

[downtown]

something so crucial and integral to the male identity should not be trifled with.

If a bit of skin on your old fella is that important then something else must be missing from you life.

nowt missing from my life chump

just find it selfish and self righteous in the extreme for a parent to do that. bit like, forcing their relegious beliefs on their offspring, like.

Just like all the other nasty decisions parents make for their children.

Your kids must be feral.......

actually my 3 year old daughter is bright, intelligent and full of confidence. insulting other poster's children is about as low as can go you nasty l'il shit

[itchybum]

If a bit of skin on your old fella is that important then something else must be missing from you life.

nowt missing from my life chump

just find it selfish and self righteous in the extreme for a parent to do that. bit like, forcing their relegious beliefs on their offspring, like.

Just like all the other nasty decisions parents make for their children.

Your kids must be feral.......

actually my 3 year old daughter is bright, intelligent and full of confidence. insulting other poster's children is about as low as can go you nasty l'il shit

Did not insult your child, just possibly you for your decisions in raising your child...like you have done to other posters basically accusing them of child abuse.

[bina]

nu really....

the OP asked a question, jsut answer.

there are a zillion forums about pro/cons of circumcision. its not child abuse. if you belong to a religioun that does that, then its the accepted thing, if you dont want to do it, then dont. its a small piece of skin, its not an eye or an ear or a finger. i live in a country where if u dont do it the boy will feel very outsiderish in the army or shower or any where else others might notice. my son, ex , cousins dont complain.they dont even know what is missing.

if you have a choice, then choose just like you choose for your child for many years, from what school he /she will go to, to living and food choices.

there are really worse things that get done to people that do cause damage....

[transam]

nu really....

the OP asked a question, jsut answer.

there are a zillion forums about pro/cons of circumcision. its not child abuse. if you belong to a religioun that does that, then its the accepted thing, if you dont want to do it, then dont. its a small piece of skin, its not an eye or an ear or a finger. i live in a country where if u dont do it the boy will feel very outsiderish in the army or shower or any where else others might notice. my son, ex , cousins dont complain.they dont even know what is missing.

if you have a choice, then choose just like you choose for your child for many years, from what school he /she will go to, to living and food choices.

there are really worse things that get done to people that do cause damage....

Think you are missing the point. BUT, we all have our opinions on stuff. Forgot, it's not just a piece of skin, it's a human beings piece of skin that belongs to him and nobody else.

[JoeInSurin]

I have known many Thai women that would only give oral sex to a circumcised man for hygiene reasons. They have told me no matter how much you wash it is always smells. I don't know? Only repeating what I was told. I'm glad I'm smegma free and don't have that problem.

[itchybum]

nu really....

the OP asked a question, jsut answer.

there are a zillion forums about pro/cons of circumcision. its not child abuse. if you belong to a religioun that does that, then its the accepted thing, if you dont want to do it, then dont. its a small piece of skin, its not an eye or an ear or a finger. i live in a country where if u dont do it the boy will feel very outsiderish in the army or shower or any where else others might notice. my son, ex , cousins dont complain.they dont even know what is missing.

if you have a choice, then choose just like you choose for your child for many years, from what school he /she will go to, to living and food choices.

there are really worse things that get done to people that do cause damage....

Think you are missing the point. BUT, we all have our opinions on stuff. Forgot, it's not just a piece of skin, it's a human beings piece of skin that belongs to him and nobody else.

What about the tooth that gets pulled because it is growing wrong and causing other teeth to be crooked....nawt reason to remove it other than aesthetics ?

What about those god awful and painful braces for 3 plus years ?

What about mickey mouse ears that get pinned back ?

What about cleft pallet.

No skin off my nose what anybody else thinks, there is enough information about to make the right decision for your child....nobody elses.

Edited October 10, 2013 by itchybum

[MeMock]

Exactly, it is my decision whether to give me son the snip, pull my little girls tooth or send them to Sunday School. I don't appreciate it when someone tells me that they "find it selfish and self righteous in the extreme" for me to do that.

I don't usually react when someone does say that to me because your entitled to your opinion but I do take umbrage when you dish that out but can't take a comment from someone thinking your kids are going to be feral without retorting with "you disgusting l'il puke" and "you nasty l'il shit" .

The opening poster asked a serious question about what he thinks is best for his son. You should not judge him for that decision. Either help him with an answer or leave this thread alone.