Eurasian mix and intelligent children...........

[wolf5370]

Cripes things go off-topic quick round here ....

To the original poster - I have a leuk krung kid, as do many of my friends. I absolutely agree that generally speaking they are smarter than the average Thai child, and also smarter than the average Brit or Ozzie kid (my nationality and many of my friends).

I do not know if this is nature picking the best bits of a dual-gene pool , or, it is the fact the two language exposure and the brain's systems create a relatively more sophisticated child. Certainly, there is much on the Google to support both theories.

They do appear (on the outside) to be slower for the first few years like 2 - 3 but then, things change quick. My child and two close friend's kids were reading in a basic manner by four in BOTH languages (different alphabets and grammer etc), and really speaking both well by five - six. By seven they have the same linguistic abilities as their single language peers in either language, but of course can speak two languages natively. That's impressive stuff - to be seven and have essentially hoisted in twice as much as single language kids. How could learning two linquistical systems not be beneficial and help sharpen all sorts of mental faculties and functions that when combined give you a large part of IQ .. ?

I read something about humans learn most of what the need for life is between the ages of 1 and 5 years so the sooner you start the better it is.

But i think you need more than IQ to be clever and get on in life i have seen TV programs over the years that have followed kids with high IQ or what they call gifted kids and not many of them carry it forward to later life.

This comes from the Jesuits, "Give me a child for the first seven years, and you may do what you like with him afterwards." which came from an older proverb, "Give me a boy for the first seven years and I'll show you the man"

[snake24]

Not only Eurasians, actually all luk-khrungs are in fact intelligent and smart and highly educated, we will surly see them filling top most jobs in Thailand in few years.

I wonder how would the euros feel about that seeing that their numbers are dropping off drastically.

You know how much they despise those that aren't pure farang.

Kind of sad huh that a luk krung can only be produced from east west union.

[ericthai]

Not only Eurasians, actually all luk-khrungs are in fact intelligent and smart and highly educated, we will surly see them filling top most jobs in Thailand in few years.

only given when the correct people in the correct positions get their tea money, so the kids are promoted a step further. When they have reached a nice position that earns them 30,000 BHT per month, the investment might have summed up to 5 Million Baht. Otherwise Luk Khrungs will be the new paria class of Thailand. Very regardless of their intelligence, superiorness and school grades. No good job here can be had without prevalent tea ceremonies . .

That is BS. I'm not saying this does not happen as I know a few teachers and police that had to pay to get their promotion or job. However I know allot of engineers in private companies both Thai and foreign owned that didn't pay one baht to get their job or to move up in the company.

[orpheus454]

Not only Eurasians, actually all luk-khrungs are in fact intelligent and smart and highly educated, we will surly see them filling top most jobs in Thailand in few years.

only given when the correct people in the correct positions get their tea money, so the kids are promoted a step further. When they have reached a nice position that earns them 30,000 BHT per month, the investment might have summed up to 5 Million Baht. Otherwise Luk Khrungs will be the new paria class of Thailand. Very regardless of their intelligence, superiorness and school grades. No good job here can be had without prevalent tea ceremonies . .

Pure crap.

You don't get out very much do you?

It's probably true in one of those "parallel universe" Thailands that some people in here seem to live in.

Might be the same one as that where government employees don't have to pay back their bank loans because the banks are too intimidated to chase them up (my particular favourite piece of Thai knowledge).

[Mudcrab]

Cripes things go off-topic quick round here ....

To the original poster - I have a leuk krung kid, as do many of my friends. I absolutely agree that generally speaking they are smarter than the average Thai child, and also smarter than the average Brit or Ozzie kid (my nationality and many of my friends).

I do not know if this is nature picking the best bits of a dual-gene pool , or, it is the fact the two language exposure and the brain's systems create a relatively more sophisticated child. Certainly, there is much on the Google to support both theories.

They do appear (on the outside) to be slower for the first few years like 2 - 3 but then, things change quick. My child and two close friend's kids were reading in a basic manner by four in BOTH languages (different alphabets and grammer etc), and really speaking both well by five - six. By seven they have the same linguistic abilities as their single language peers in either language, but of course can speak two languages natively. That's impressive stuff - to be seven and have essentially hoisted in twice as much as single language kids. How could learning two linquistical systems not be beneficial and help sharpen all sorts of mental faculties and functions that when combined give you a large part of IQ .. ?

I read something about humans learn most of what the need for life is between the ages of 1 and 5 years so the sooner you start the better it is.

But i think you need more than IQ to be clever and get on in life i have seen TV programs over the years that have followed kids with high IQ or what they call gifted kids and not many of them carry it forward to later life.

This comes from the Jesuits, "Give me a child for the first seven years, and you may do what you like with him afterwards." which came from an older proverb, "Give me a boy for the first seven years and I'll show you the man"

And a few "priests" are paying for the time with the boy now

[Rorri]

I was an English teacher for 13 years here and disagree. Many luuk kreung were spoiled and many were from broken homes. My kids aer aboce average in their class but not geniuses. Obviously their English is well above the rest.

You taught what? No wander Thai kids have trouble learning English.

[Wat dee]

i don tthink its that they are more intelligent, but they do seem to work harder and have more drive

MY half american daughter is doing great in an american university, upper 5% of her class

I've heard American colleges and uni's usually are less demanding than european high-schools?

[Emdog]

The old "nature vs nurture" Thai farang style

[krisb]

I've noticed no matter how good at something you think you are, theres always some little Asian kid better.

hehe like the kids in Bugis Street in the early hours of the morning, playing drunk matelots and squaddies noughts and crosses for money.

My half thai half australian son, now 26, found out, when he was in High School, he had an IQ of 145. So he dropped out and now uses that intelligence to artfully dodge getting a job.

Ok I did say some Asian kid, not all. Your son will find not working eventually fails. Do what I would do, kick him in the ass

[atyclb]

Sounds a bit racist to me.

There is absolutely no reason and no proof that Asian in general and Thais in particular are less intelligent than mixed-race children.

What might be true is that in many cases mixed-race children in Thailand get a better education than their Thai friends, simply because many mixed couples have the financial means to send their children to better schools. To conclude from this that these children are more intelligent is in my view wrong.

If you ask an US American, he would probably say that Asian descendents are more intelligent that US Americans, as can be seen by the number of High-School, College and University graduates compared to their quota in population, but again, it probably originates in a different emphasis on the importance of education form their Asian parents.

Exposure to science, arts, math, creativity, analytical and critical thinking, debate, discussion (much less cheating and bribery) is absent for most raised in Thailand Thai's. I don't believe they are genetically less intelligent. There are some medical issues including malnutrition than can lower intelligence as well as in utero issues (habits of mother)

I have a Thai friend that was adopted by a US couple, raised and educated there. He is as sharp as a whistle. Actually was recruited in US and brought to work for a big Thai company. He has an exceptionally difficult time dealing with local mentality and lack of critical thinking. The thing that helps him is looking like other Thai's. He had to learn the language from scratch also.

In the US Thai's generally do not have the high academic achievement reputation (exceptions duly noted) It is typically the Koreans, Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese americans and also Indians.

The intelligence/aptitude of mixed children in Thailand would also be related to how progressive, intelligent, educated, and capable the western parent is.

In general my high function Thai friends had the benefit of exceptional parents and or exposure including studies abroad.

PS; I know mixed Thai / Japanese who have also excelled here and abroad.

Edited October 7, 2013 by atyclb

[leafmould]

I saw a TV program years back talking about, if parents come from countries speaking different languages and they raise their kids totaly bilingual (one parent only speaking one language, the other only speaking theirs, to the kids) the kids grow up using more complex parts of the brain for learning and later in life have a greater advantage when learning other things, languages included. Making for a higher IQ? It didn't say.

The example was an english father and french mother, not mixed race, but throw in the fact that asian and european genes split from each other about 60 000 years ago, according to DNA analisis, this would remove any chance of recesive genes as well, thus possibly pumping up the mix.

[newermonkey]

Sounds a bit racist to me.

There is absolutely no reason and no proof that Asian in general and Thais in particular are less intelligent than mixed-race children.

What might be true is that in many cases mixed-race children in Thailand get a better education than their Thai friends, simply because many mixed couples have the financial means to send their children to better schools. To conclude from this that these children are more intelligent is in my view wrong.

If you ask an US American, he would probably say that Asian descendents are more intelligent that US Americans, as can be seen by the number of High-School, College and University graduates compared to their quota in population, but again, it probably originates in a different emphasis on the importance of education form their Asian parents.

I think you are wrong.

My 19 yo son kept running away from school and effectively had around 2 years of formal education in a lousy Thai school and would not go near a school after age 10 (Not all farangs have the big bucks to send them to good schools)

He will listen to a foreign word ONCE and just simply remember it, he has self taught himself Japanese apart from speaking perfect English and Thai. he knows pretty much everything about computers (PC) people come to him to fix things all the time. He can remember all the words in a song after listening ONCE in Japanese Thai & English. He just recently opened his own coffee shop and taught himself all the barista stuff in one day and refused to go to the free lessons given by Bon-Cafe when you buy a coffee machine. The first time he tried riding a motor cycle (A Honda phantom Gears and clutch) he mastered it within 5 mins !! and he was 14 at the time !!!

I could go on but I think you can see he is not your normal Thai, that bit of farang/Thai mix must have done something up in his noodle funny thing is his Thai mum nor myself are over average IQ. He definitely thinks differently to most people his is not a savant or dyslexic etc.

[dunque]

Me: Wife aren't you glad that are daughter is smarter than you?

Wife: of course that is because of your genes. Everyone knows that Thais are genetically inferior intellectually.

Me: I am glad that you speak both English and Thai though, because even after 20 years here I cannot.

Wife: That is because you are too smart. You don't need to ever speak such a silly language as Thai. My only regret that is I am born Thai from ignorant and genetically inferior Thai parents.

Me: Yes, but at least they are polite.

Forgive the extreme sarcasm. But this entire thread makes me want to vomit.

Take the same bi racial children and have them raised in a poor-middle class family with a sub par education and tell me how smart they are.

This is definitely a nature vs nurture argument. Which the only logic would dictate that it is nurture that influences this and not genetics.

Those that are raised in families that encourage exploration, risk taking, cognitive thinking using open ended questions and dialgogs, encourage their kids to break the mold and try new things will most likely be deemed as more intelligent. If a child is raised to only follow directions, never question what is being told, never to explore and discover on their own will never fully develop the skills needed to engage knowledge and thus will never be considered inteligent.

The issue at hand is that we need certain skills which by definition are trained and not inherent. There are those that have a natural gift or find it easier to advance in those skills which would be inherited, but overall our sense of intelligence is greatly affetced by our environment.

I have said before and I will say it again. There are 1000's of Thai people that went to Thai schools even public ones, and are as educated and as capable of those that went to Western Universities and have all the financial backing to do whatever they want.

Cream rises to the top.

Or to put it more simply - nurture more than nature.

[lazygourmet]

Being myself "campur" -Indonesian equivalent of "luk kreung"-; I only feel more intelligent after reading this kind of topic...

[marquis22]

Its called hybrid vigor...

+1

Maybe Anglo/Asian is a better term than Eurasian?

[h90]

" Biology permits no racial divisions. The Human Genome Project has settled once and for all the age-old question of whether races really exist."

http://www.kenanmalik.com/lectures/race_oslo.html

Race is not a scientific concept. No such thing.

There are big differences in populations:

Say Inuit people vs. Africans and Vitamin C is well known. (daily need of 10 mg vs. 200 mg).

Or look at teeth and hair...some populations get old with perfect teeth and black hair while others are already with 40 bald.

But something like intelligence is much more complex and depends a lot on what the kid experience the first years.

But it seems Chinese, Japanese, Korean have a slight advantage (and I am not one of these, so if it is racist, it is racist against myself).

[Waterloo]

Surely a case of nuture over nature, currently my wife is on an extended visit to her mothers village with our 2 little children a 3 year old boy & 1 year old girl.

She will be in Thailand for 10 weeks with the children & I will only be able to join them for the last 3 weeks.

During this time the boy will have 5-6 weeks of schooling in the village school totally imersing him in Thai & Cambodean.

Whilst it is difficult being seperated for this duration it is an advantage in life that is only available to 2 or 3 other children in the village.

[wolf5370]

I was an English teacher for 13 years here and disagree. Many luuk kreung were spoiled and many were from broken homes. My kids aer aboce average in their class but not geniuses. Obviously their English is well above the rest.

You taught what? No wander Thai kids have trouble learning English.

Lucky he taught English and not typing then (post scriptum: "wander"?)

[snake24]

Sounds a bit racist to me.

There is absolutely no reason and no proof that Asian in general and Thais in particular are less intelligent than mixed-race children.

What might be true is that in many cases mixed-race children in Thailand get a better education than their Thai friends, simply because many mixed couples have the financial means to send their children to better schools. To conclude from this that these children are more intelligent is in my view wrong.

If you ask an US American, he would probably say that Asian descendents are more intelligent that US Americans, as can be seen by the number of High-School, College and University graduates compared to their quota in population, but again, it probably originates in a different emphasis on the importance of education form their Asian parents.

I think you are wrong.

My 19 yo son kept running away from school and effectively had around 2 years of formal education in a lousy Thai school and would not go near a school after age 10 (Not all farangs have the big bucks to send them to good schools)

He will listen to a foreign word ONCE and just simply remember it, he has self taught himself Japanese apart from speaking perfect English and Thai. he knows pretty much everything about computers (PC) people come to him to fix things all the time. He can remember all the words in a song after listening ONCE in Japanese Thai & English. He just recently opened his own coffee shop and taught himself all the barista stuff in one day and refused to go to the free lessons given by Bon-Cafe when you buy a coffee machine. The first time he tried riding a motor cycle (A Honda phantom Gears and clutch) he mastered it within 5 mins !! and he was 14 at the time !!!

I could go on but I think you can see he is not your normal Thai, that bit of farang/Thai mix must have done something up in his noodle funny thing is his Thai mum nor myself are over average IQ. He definitely thinks differently to most people his is not a savant or dyslexic etc.

The funny thing is his thai mum nor myself are over average IQ.

Sorry couldn't highlight that bit of your post cos it's against TV rule so you are saying both y6ou and your wife are what average IQ or below average?

[crazygreg44]

Not only Eurasians, actually all luk-khrungs are in fact intelligent and smart and highly educated, we will surly see them filling top most jobs in Thailand in few years.

only given when the correct people in the correct positions get their tea money, so the kids are promoted a step further. When they have reached a nice position that earns them 30,000 BHT per month, the investment might have summed up to 5 Million Baht. Otherwise Luk Khrungs will be the new paria class of Thailand. Very regardless of their intelligence, superiorness and school grades. No good job here can be had without prevalent tea ceremonies . .

Pure crap.

You don't get out very much do you?

oh, i do. My luk khrungs will all be movie stars, role TV models and such, or/and soon will fill all the vacant jobs in government, acording to their overwhelming junior and senior school grades.

Maybe the one who does not go out much, is you ? Or are you a sleepwalker every other night ?

[crazygreg44]

Sounds a bit racist to me.

There is absolutely no reason and no proof that Asian in general and Thais in particular are less intelligent than mixed-race children.

What might be true is that in many cases mixed-race children in Thailand get a better education than their Thai friends, simply because many mixed couples have the financial means to send their children to better schools. To conclude from this that these children are more intelligent is in my view wrong.

If you ask an US American, he would probably say that Asian descendents are more intelligent that US Americans, as can be seen by the number of High-School, College and University graduates compared to their quota in population, but again, it probably originates in a different emphasis on the importance of education form their Asian parents.

I think you are wrong.

My 19 yo son kept running away from school and effectively had around 2 years of formal education in a lousy Thai school and would not go near a school after age 10 (Not all farangs have the big bucks to send them to good schools)

He will listen to a foreign word ONCE and just simply remember it, he has self taught himself Japanese apart from speaking perfect English and Thai. he knows pretty much everything about computers (PC) people come to him to fix things all the time. He can remember all the words in a song after listening ONCE in Japanese Thai & English. He just recently opened his own coffee shop and taught himself all the barista stuff in one day and refused to go to the free lessons given by Bon-Cafe when you buy a coffee machine. The first time he tried riding a motor cycle (A Honda phantom Gears and clutch) he mastered it within 5 mins !! and he was 14 at the time !!!

I could go on but I think you can see he is not your normal Thai, that bit of farang/Thai mix must have done something up in his noodle funny thing is his Thai mum nor myself are over average IQ. He definitely thinks differently to most people his is not a savant or dyslexic etc.

The funny thing is his thai mum nor myself are over average IQ.

Sorry couldn't highlight that bit of your post cos it's against TV rule so you are saying both y6ou and your wife are what average IQ or below average?

the more funny thing is, that you offered him a financial start into a coffee shop. Not that he build it up from the hocks with all his intellect and knowledge, but YOUR money.

Let's see if he is smart enough to make something out of it.

[crazygreg44]

oh yeah i am beginning to love this thread.

so there are a lot of proud luk khrungs Daddies out there ( Mom withheld because Mom does not post anything in Thaivisa ) who share the opinion that their bred has earnedstars before anything just because : A) they are genetically predominant they speak two languages C) they were Oh sooo smaaart in their junior school years

come on you sound like a bunch of weepers. Fact is, in Thailand you will have to but your way into the higher positions. I am not talking about becoming a nurse, a bank clerk or a governemnt low basis worker. I am talking about what chances your dear kids have after having passed the xxxxthousands-of-dollars-paid public or private schools.

In Thailand, without any connections to the upper ruling class, your chances are twindling.

Regardless of IQ. Rather than your offsprings IQ is rated perfect for the jobs to be had, the will stand in the way to receive a well greased job inside a corrupted system, from countryside to city administrations it is the same song.

My son wants to join the police force, the commanding officer asked for 500,000 BHT in order to proliferate him to the approbiate school.

You have ever to be out there ....

[Forethat]

Sounds a bit racist to me.

There is absolutely no reason and no proof that Asian in general and Thais in particular are less intelligent than mixed-race children.

What might be true is that in many cases mixed-race children in Thailand get a better education than their Thai friends, simply because many mixed couples have the financial means to send their children to better schools. To conclude from this that these children are more intelligent is in my view wrong.

If you ask an US American, he would probably say that Asian descendents are more intelligent that US Americans, as can be seen by the number of High-School, College and University graduates compared to their quota in population, but again, it probably originates in a different emphasis on the importance of education form their Asian parents.

I think you are wrong.

My 19 yo son kept running away from school and effectively had around 2 years of formal education in a lousy Thai school and would not go near a school after age 10 (Not all farangs have the big bucks to send them to good schools)

He will listen to a foreign word ONCE and just simply remember it, he has self taught himself Japanese apart from speaking perfect English and Thai. he knows pretty much everything about computers (PC) people come to him to fix things all the time. He can remember all the words in a song after listening ONCE in Japanese Thai & English. He just recently opened his own coffee shop and taught himself all the barista stuff in one day and refused to go to the free lessons given by Bon-Cafe when you buy a coffee machine. The first time he tried riding a motor cycle (A Honda phantom Gears and clutch) he mastered it within 5 mins !! and he was 14 at the time !!!

I could go on but I think you can see he is not your normal Thai, that bit of farang/Thai mix must have done something up in his noodle funny thing is his Thai mum nor myself are over average IQ. He definitely thinks differently to most people his is not a savant or dyslexic etc.

The funny thing is his thai mum nor myself are over average IQ.

Sorry couldn't highlight that bit of your post cos it's against TV rule so you are saying both y6ou and your wife are what average IQ or below average?

the more funny thing is, that you offered him a financial start into a coffee shop. Not that he build it up from the hocks with all his intellect and knowledge, but YOUR money.

Let's see if he is smart enough to make something out of it.

Intelligence has nothing to do with financial success or the ability to succeed in business ventures.

[featography]

Humm ... Euroasian

Some Aussies, Yanks and the like might debate that ...

this much is certain.

[cup-O-coffee]

To the people who accuse Thai bashers of doing what they do best: Bash Thais, pay attention, because any truth that half-half children are brighter and more successful can (IMO) be attributed to the origins of our compelling urges to bash Thais.

Additionally, there is one thought I have, and it is an idea I have been aware of from my observations of human beings in general.

Thailand is without a doubt a racist country. This is my opinion. I have noticed that people in Thailand who are singled out are much smarter than the average person who fits in to the herd. Gay people, for example, usually tend to be (IMO) much more bright and aggressive in reaching their goals in life. They also are generally more pleasant people to have discussions with and their intelligence levels seem to be more broad than the average person.

I think that this is due to the fact that they know they are different, and that is a burden that one carries and has to step up to the plate and toughen up a lot quicker in life than the one who fits like a glove in the herd, and does not have to attend to matters for lack of fear of being singled out (being laughed at, insulted, ignored, rejected, abandoned, passed over, etc.)

My point is that I am convinced that half-half children know they are different. This is not made any easier in the mind of a child when growing up in a racist environment with native Thais children who are (in their minds) faultless and perfect.

Children, in general, already have enough stress levels to make life daunting. There is not any recognition given to half-half children for their uniqueness, and instead they are taught that they are "Thai", when in fact this charade comes across more as an insult and injury to them than anything else. Their uniqueness is not recognized by the adult Thai community in any other fashion than as a stereotype or a racial slur. They are either admired and unfairly put on a pedestal or envied and despised and unfairly singled out. There is no balance to their lives because they are not given a status for what they are, and native Thai children are not taught to recognize that other races and mixed races are important too.

So, in summary, half-half children, I believe in theory, have a bigger burden from the starting line to live up to or face up to, and this kind of environment will make you or break you. I believe that since foreign fathers and mothers are much more supportive and nurturing to their children (Tolerance and temperance) than Thai mothers and fathers (Tolerance only), that most of the half-half children come out on top of this stressful and chaotic environment in Thailand that they are thrust in to.

I may be off a bit on this, but there is something to this that I have noticed in humans, and trying to put my finger on it has lead me thus far to this theory. I am still searching for answers.

[maddas]

The first time he tried riding a motor cycle (A Honda phantom Gears and clutch) he mastered it within 5 mins !! and he was 14 at the time !!!

crikey I know kids who can fly a plane by then, ohhh whats this "luk kreung" not in my english dictionary!!!

[Thai at Heart]

To the people who accuse Thai bashers of doing what they do best: Bash Thais, pay attention, because any truth that half-half children are brighter and more successful can (IMO) be attributed to the origins of our compelling urges to bash Thais.

Additionally, there is one thought I have, and it is an idea I have been aware of from my observations of human beings in general.

Thailand is without a doubt a racist country. This is my opinion. I have noticed that people in Thailand who are singled out are much smarter than the average person who fits in to the herd. Gay people, for example, usually tend to be (IMO) much more bright and aggressive in reaching their goals in life. They also are generally more pleasant people to have discussions with and their intelligence levels seem to be more broad than the average person.

I think that this is due to the fact that they know they are different, and that is a burden that one carries and has to step up to the plate and toughen up a lot quicker in life than the one who fits like a glove in the herd, and does not have to attend to matters for lack of fear of being singled out (being laughed at, insulted, ignored, rejected, abandoned, passed over, etc.)

My point is that I am convinced that half-half children know they are different. This is not made any easier in the mind of a child when growing up in a racist environment with native Thais children who are (in their minds) faultless and perfect.

Children, in general, already have enough stress levels to make life daunting. There is not any recognition given to half-half children for their uniqueness, and instead they are taught that they are "Thai", when in fact this charade comes across more as an insult and injury to them than anything else. Their uniqueness is not recognized by the adult Thai community in any other fashion than as a stereotype or a racial slur. They are either admired and unfairly put on a pedestal or envied and despised and unfairly singled out. There is no balance to their lives because they are not given a status for what they are, and native Thai children are not taught to recognize that other races and mixed races are important too.

So, in summary, half-half children, I believe in theory, have a bigger burden from the starting line to live up to or face up to, and this kind of environment will make you or break you. I believe that since foreign fathers and mothers are much more supportive and nurturing to their children (Tolerance and temperance) than Thai mothers and fathers (Tolerance only), that most of the half-half children come out on top of this stressful and chaotic environment in Thailand that they are thrust in to.

I may be off a bit on this, but there is something to this that I have noticed in humans, and trying to put my finger on it has lead me thus far to this theory. I am still searching for answers.

Unfortunately, their level of success extends only to Thai music, acting and golf so far....

The status quo is not set up to accept them in Thailand. Even Korea loves successful mixed race Koreans. Thailand wants to pigeon hole and commercially exploit theirs.

[sirineou]

Yes, we are also very handsome and go off like rockets in bed.

55555555555555

The ferang national anthem

every body, all together now , sing:

Oh Lord is hard to be humble

when you're perfect in every way

to know me is to love me

I must be a hell of a guy

Edited October 7, 2013 by sirineou

[ajarnpot]

 

Humm ... Euroasian

Some Aussies, Yanks and the like might debate that ...

 

I believe the indigenous populations of both were killed off many years ago. A ghost of the original remains on each, but sadly mainly slain so we will never know.

However in S. America I believe that some native population still exists ....

[Joe Mamma]

Humm ... Euroasian

Some Aussies, Yanks and the like might debate that ...

Why????? Didn't they originate from their in the past??