Im trying to understand all this

[Crazy chef 1]

try to understand Thailand,try western logic in Thailand,try western common sense in Thailand,try try try and you will end mad and frustrated....just acept it it is their way of business- not explainable.

[swissie]

If a Thai lady has children with a man she hasn't married, it's considered her problem, not his problem.

This is a major difference between Thai and western laws, and one I think that's entirely fair (If he won't marry you, don't breed with him).

One of the many problems which foreigners have in Thailand is not understanding the difference in meaning between 'Pua/Mia' and 'Sammee/Panraya' which both loosely get translated into English as 'husband/wife', but really aren't the same at all.

You are no longer in your home country, a lot of your morality is not applicable here.

So to sum up what you are not understanding,

In Thailand females have not yet been granted the god given right to breed freely with no consequences to themselves, and shove all consequences on the male foolish enough to breed with them.

To put the flip side of your argument:

In Thailand it seems men still have the god given right to breed freely with no consequences to themselves, and shove all the consequences on the female foolish enough to breed with them.

And you seem to think that entirely fair.

Nice!

Breeding works in Thailand. Within a radius of 20 Km from where I live, there is no female at the age of 20 that has not already 2 children. The father is "absent".

Remedy: Marry a 85 year old Farang that will make every effort to adopt those kids in order to form a "happy family". The family left behind in Europe is of no concern to the Farang and especially not to the "Newly gained family" in Thailand.

Cheers.

[Crazy chef 1]

My personal observations:

- First comes Nature, Hormones, Love... and a baby...

- Than natural father disappears, goes to greener pastures...

- Single mum looks for a Father (the cuckoo syndrome)... or Family looks after the baby...

This isn't all Thais, but very typical for Thailand.

Net result:

- Family is very important. Perhaps all-important in Thai culture...

- Every strata of society happy - Gov't saves money on social services; Thai men enjoy sex without obligations; Farangs or older well to do Thais get younger second hand wifes; Kids often get better chances in life...

- There is a healthy rate of population growth...

- It is as it is. No use to apply Western values here.

For the sake of fairness and compared to the West:

- The same Nature, Hormones, Love... but no baby due to better (?) sex education...

- Natural father is guilty even if he is not a natural father...

- Single mum looks for a Father (the cuckoo syndrome)... or Gov't support, often concurrently...

This isn't all West, but a very typical picture.

Net result:

- Family ties are weaker in Western countries...

- No happy groups in society - Gov't overburdened with social security payments; Western men are scared to form long term relationships for fear of being 'taken to the cleaners'; Both single mum and father paying maintenance are stigmatised;

Kids from broken families are often disadvantaged in many different ways...

- Population growth rate is lower in the West...

Please feel free to argue. As I said it is my personal observation. Any personal insults will be happily returned.

one of the best post's/ observations i've read since a long time ago- briliant analytical skills.you hit the nail

[mjj]

OP, that all sounds quite normal to me.

Here, no matter how much of a sh_t head the father is he will always be respected. My wife's son is now 18 but his dad paid nothing towards his upkeep, BUT, he is still a film star in the kids eyes.

Not always. My wife's mother married a guy (not wife's father, they dumped her on granny when she was 1 - but that's another story) and they have 2 kids together and the eldest is about 28 - so they have been married for a long time. Anyway, a few years ago the guy decided to get a Mia noi. Not a happy house, lots of fighting and hurt for a few years.

Now the husband/father comes 'home' every now and then and generally gets given jobs to do and his voice has very little authority. The Mia noi has been beaten by the daughter and when I was their the father was generally ignored and he said, 'Oh, no one cares about me, I will just go and die somewhere else.' Everyone in the family laughed at him (i thought it was funny as well) and he came back a few days later to the same reception.

From my experience, just my experience, Thailand is a very patriarchal society on the face of it, but in the homes of many it's firmly matriarchal. Probably not that different to back home.....

[JaiLai]

If a Thai lady has children with a man she hasn't married, it's considered her problem, not his problem.

This is a major difference between Thai and western laws, and one I think that's entirely fair (If he won't marry you, don't breed with him).

One of the many problems which foreigners have in Thailand is not understanding the difference in meaning between 'Pua/Mia' and 'Sammee/Panraya' which both loosely get translated into English as 'husband/wife', but really aren't the same at all.

You are no longer in your home country, a lot of your morality is not applicable here.

So to sum up what you are not understanding,

In Thailand females have not yet been granted the god given right to breed freely with no consequences to themselves, and shove all consequences on the male foolish enough to breed with them.

To put the flip side of your argument:

In Thailand it seems men still have the god given right to breed freely with no consequences to themselves, and shove all the consequences on the female foolish enough to breed with them.

And you seem to think that entirely fair.

Nice!

Being 'entirely fair' is neither here nor there, the simple fact is it's the truth.

Go to any part of Thailand, small towns / cities / butt <deleted> villages and you will find the same situation over and over again.

To a certain extent this extends right through the classes as well, peasants / middle and upper classes.....all the same - just the way it is - no one cares!

[MAJIC]

Ask the question Cui Bono? To who's benefit.

And there needs to be some benefit driver for this to be so prevalent in Thai society.

My personal opinion is that is the Thai mother, or more specifically the Thai grandmother that benefits - fathers out of the way, daughters with a child to raise, grandmother hooked into the system (she's useful now) daughters sent out to work, kids dumped with grandma, income stream for life.

AND a constant mind game of indebtedness to mum.

Your G/F might very well object to the father of her child being involved in anyway simply because it suits her for him to be out of the picture - the child is her long term security, sealed up nicely when a grandchild comes along.

Think about it another way - there is no welfare, a young woman who gets pregnant outside of marriage is at risk of being left with no support, the poverty your G/F has told you about is a real risk, anyone who thinks about that as a reality would be terrified by the thought of a pregnancy without the support of the father.

Unless there is some other behaviour driver pregnancy outside of marriage would be a serious matter and you'd expect to see cultural norms developing to discourage it - social stigma etc.

But it hardly exists in Thailand, mothers are not schooling their daughters to not get pregnant with the first boyfriend that comes along - But they do put a huge amount of effort into encouraging the dependancy hook into their children. Why?

Cui Bono?

An interesting viewpoint,but surely you don't mean the Grandparents encourage the outcome,rather than events brought it about?

[GuestHouse]

I don't dispute what is happening, read my earlier post.

What I take issue with is the ridiculous assertion made by FiftyTwo at post 29.

[x0r1987]

It really will be best if you go with the flow...

As others have said... You are looking at this from your own cutulral perspective.... Is yours better? Thats a matter of opinion... But this is Thailand, and it is their culture.... Dont complain unless your Mrs gives you the green light haaha

Save the headaches, just go with the flow.

Sent from my LG-E612 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Off topic.... I am prepped for this to disappear...

Butttttt... Was happy to see your avatar!!!! Sad PI is gone Miss the banter!!

[stickylies]

One thing I've learned is not waste time on "trying to understand". Too many things are totally different here. sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way. Go with the flow is indeed the most comfortable way

[ChrisB87]

Tremendous amount of compassion on their part!......Good job!

[buck99]

One thing I've learned is not waste time on "trying to understand". Too many things are totally different here. sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way. Go with the flow is indeed the most comfortable way

I hear many posters say something along the lines of "don't try to understand" or "go with the flow". But to me part of the fascination of living in a foreign and exotic country is to attempt to understand why a culture does what they do and why they think the way they think. Many posters have great insight in Thai culture, customs and thinking and I appreciate reading their posts. Other posters feel if you ask the question "why" you are complaining or being judgmental. Each morning I'm eager to get up early with the hope of learning something new. Thailand gives me lots of opportunities to see things from a different point of view.

[GuestHouse]

Ask the question Cui Bono? To who's benefit.

And there needs to be some benefit driver for this to be so prevalent in Thai society.

My personal opinion is that is the Thai mother, or more specifically the Thai grandmother that benefits - fathers out of the way, daughters with a child to raise, grandmother hooked into the system (she's useful now) daughters sent out to work, kids dumped with grandma, income stream for life.

AND a constant mind game of indebtedness to mum.

Your G/F might very well object to the father of her child being involved in anyway simply because it suits her for him to be out of the picture - the child is her long term security, sealed up nicely when a grandchild comes along.

Think about it another way - there is no welfare, a young woman who gets pregnant outside of marriage is at risk of being left with no support, the poverty your G/F has told you about is a real risk, anyone who thinks about that as a reality would be terrified by the thought of a pregnancy without the support of the father.

Unless there is some other behaviour driver pregnancy outside of marriage would be a serious matter and you'd expect to see cultural norms developing to discourage it - social stigma etc.

But it hardly exists in Thailand, mothers are not schooling their daughters to not get pregnant with the first boyfriend that comes along - But they do put a huge amount of effort into encouraging the dependancy hook into their children. Why?

Cui Bono?

An interesting viewpoint,but surely you don't mean the Grandparents encourage the outcome,rather than events brought it about?

No, I mean specifically grandmothers are the one's who benefit from this system - Its a whole dependency network mothers and grandmothers raise their kids to behave exactly as they want them to behave.

[MAJIC]

I don't dispute what is happening, read my earlier post.

What I take issue with is the ridiculous assertion made by FiftyTwo at post 29.

As shocking as it may seem you may very well have a profound insight,one can only hope it's not quite so predetermined?

[FiftyTwo]

If a Thai lady has children with a man she hasn't married, it's considered her problem, not his problem.

This is a major difference between Thai and western laws, and one I think that's entirely fair (If he won't marry you, don't breed with him).

One of the many problems which foreigners have in Thailand is not understanding the difference in meaning between 'Pua/Mia' and 'Sammee/Panraya' which both loosely get translated into English as 'husband/wife', but really aren't the same at all.

You are no longer in your home country, a lot of your morality is not applicable here.

So to sum up what you are not understanding,

In Thailand females have not yet been granted the god given right to breed freely with no consequences to themselves, and shove all consequences on the male foolish enough to breed with them.

To put the flip side of your argument:

In Thailand it seems men still have the god given right to breed freely with no consequences to themselves, and shove all the consequences on the female foolish enough to breed with them.

And you seem to think that entirely fair.

Nice!

I believe many women would claim, their body, their choice.

[oogster8]

Try and find a Thai family that is NOT disfunctional - good luck!

As mentioned no one bats an eyelid at how f***** up they ALL are.

I think op is jsut as screwed up too. Why is he thinking about sending gf daughter to college? If thats the case marry the tgf.

Father not expected to help but farang bf is...............lol.

Methinks another case where atm got his head up the cammels butthole.

[maprao]

Understand it and use it to your advantage... I do

Clever people will know what I mean. I have no intention of explaining it. This why I love Thailand!

[buck99]

Try and find a Thai family that is NOT disfunctional - good luck!

As mentioned no one bats an eyelid at how f***** up they ALL are.

I think op is jsut as screwed up too. Why is he thinking about sending gf daughter to college? If thats the case marry the tgf.

Father not expected to help but farang bf is...............lol.

Methinks another case where atm got his head up the cammels butthole.

I appreciate your concern the OP is screwed up because I send my GF daughter to college. I'm sure doing something kind for someone else without getting something in return is a difficult concept for you to understand. I have been inordinately blessed in my life and understand it is not because I am talented or so wise. It's because other people have opened doors for me and allowed me to succeed. If I can do the same for others, I enjoy doing so. My GF daughter is getting straight A's in a quality school in BKK, I am sending another deserving student through Dental School in Cebu Philippines and my niece to Stanford in the USA. The agreement is they maintain their GPA at a B average or above. So far they are all holding up their end of the bargain. The student in Cebu will graduate with her Doctorate in June. I don't believe in giving money as "free" money is never appreciated by the recipient. It takes very little to give an good education and completely change the lives of an individual in Thai and Philippines. The difficult task is finding those few people who really want to help themselves.

[xen]

From what i understand the Thais will call this Num Jai . And the reasoning behind is that the father (or mother) gave them life and so deserves eternal gratitude.

Understand Num Jai and you will understand Thais to a large extent but to me it is an absolute con job. It is the reasons many parents abuse their children and their family is because the parents will always deserve respect from their children( in theory). It breaks up marriages and is abused by so many parents greed,ignorance and lack of decency . Nearly everybody on TV will have been touched by it at some time even if they don't realise it. Don't get me wrong, If it is not abused, num jai could be a wonderful part of Thai culture but it has been corrupted so much.

Read the book Thailand Fever to get a better understanding of what num jai is.

[hgma]

I have no problem whatsoever whatever locals,SEA think do or want.

Rule nr 1.Keep me and the (our) children out of it!!

Chokdeedeu!!!!!!!!

[kingstonkid]

Why do you think they are looking for western hubbies

[johnlandy]

Try and find a Thai family that is NOT disfunctional - good luck!

As mentioned no one bats an eyelid at how f***** up they ALL are.

And the search will likely be a very long one

[899cc]

One thing I've learned is not waste time on "trying to understand". Too many things are totally different here. sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way. Go with the flow is indeed the most comfortable way

I hear many posters say something along the lines of "don't try to understand" or "go with the flow". But to me part of the fascination of living in a foreign and exotic country is to attempt to understand why a culture does what they do and why they think the way they think. Many posters have great insight in Thai culture, customs and thinking and I appreciate reading their posts. Other posters feel if you ask the question "why" you are complaining or being judgmental. Each morning I'm eager to get up early with the hope of learning something new. Thailand gives me lots of opportunities to see things from a different point of view.

Don't be surprised OP if G/F father dies & they come looking for money for funeral costs from yourself, call Thai culture or customs or whatever it's coming your way.

[janpharma]

...and this counts for 99,99% of all Thais....

[A1Str8]

From their point of view, it doesn't really matter what mistakes the father made in the past. Of course deep inside it bothers and hurts them but as thais who are taught to respect older people and their mentors(theoretically a dad represents both) they would never confront him with what he did. That's why she looked at you the way she did. Because she knows you are right but she would never admit it as it's totally against what she has been taught and believes in.

[thaidel48]

About parr for the course I'm afraid. Sad but normal here.

[oldsailor35]

My wife and her husband divorced years before I met her, the husband took one daughter and my wife took the other, When I met her and we were talking about living together, I asked her to quit both of her jobs and I would care for her, part of that was sending her mother 2,000 baht a month for taking care of her daughter.

When we moved to the village , her daughters (both) came to live with us and the grandmother went back to her home in Bangkok, over the years the girls father brought them gold, computers etc, we paid all the living cost, the girls father paid for the Education all the way thought the university and takes care of the needs of things they desired, phones, spending money what have you, he recently moved back to the village from Phuket.

I may be the exception to the rule but he does provide for our children.

In the village the parents pay for the child's education with the understanding that it is the child responsibility to care for their parents later in life. The wife and I were recently planning for what she needed after I am gone to support herself, both girls told me daddy, do not worry about our mother we will take care of her.

What I have seen of the family unity, I know they will!

Cheers: .

Then he is surely one of the very few good fathers in Thailand. My partners son now 16 and going to boarding school in Bangkok, has never received any help from his father, who incidentally is a court judge.

Edited October 14, 2013 by oldsailor35

[hellodolly]

Try and find a Thai family that is NOT disfunctional - good luck!

As mentioned no one bats an eyelid at how f***** up they ALL are.

You certainly have a narrow point of view.

I don't know the truth of it but a noted Chicago Psychiatrist claimed that 95% of the families in America were dysfunctional. Maybe you and him have the same view of what dysfunctional is.

[bitcoinbob]

there is no alimony in Thailand because women do not have a voice here. if there was there would be more personal responsibility among Thai males. you have not figure out what thai alimony is it is call GO GET A FALANG! thai alimony

[hellodolly]

My wife and her husband divorced years before I met her, the husband took one daughter and my wife took the other, When I met her and we were talking about living together, I asked her to quit both of her jobs and I would care for her, part of that was sending her mother 2,000 baht a month for taking care of her daughter.

When we moved to the village , her daughters (both) came to live with us and the grandmother went back to her home in Bangkok, over the years the girls father brought them gold, computers etc, we paid all the living cost, the girls father paid for the Education all the way thought the university and takes care of the needs of things they desired, phones, spending money what have you, he recently moved back to the village from Phuket.

I may be the exception to the rule but he does provide for our children.

In the village the parents pay for the child's education with the understanding that it is the child responsibility to care for their parents later in life. The wife and I were recently planning for what she needed after I am gone to support herself, both girls told me daddy, do not worry about our mother we will take care of her.

What I have seen of the family unity, I know they will!

Cheers: .

My wife has two grown children with kids of their own. The daughter has 3 kids one now 19. About 3 years ago she asked me for a fair sum of money to go to school and become a nurses aide. Part of her plea was that she would be better able to take care of her mother and myself in are older age. The son had a baby boy and asked me for a sizable sum of money for a two year course in electronic engineering. The same story he could take better care of us in are old age. This money was at least three times what I had given the daughter. I thought about it for a few days and then agreed to it. The look on the wife's face was instant repayment. She tried to cover it with her hands and started crying and blubbering some thing about the sons useless father.

They are both graduated and working in their field. the daughter and her family have since moved here to Chiang Mai. I have no vehicle or desire to have one and they will take me any place I want to go of they are off shift. The son in law works at the same hospital in the X ray department.

I always and still do to a degree worry about what if I die. I am 15 years older than my wife but I know that she will be taken care of. I have how ever managed to set some thing aside for her so she would be able to survive and continue to take care of her mother.

The other day the 10 year old granddaughter was asking me how to say grandfather in English.

If the father passes away and they want to go see him before he passes I have no problem with that. I just won't contribute money to it.

I have a Thai family. Not just a Thai wife. Feels good.

[benalibina]

From their point of view, it doesn't really matter what mistakes the father made in the past. Of course deep inside it bothers and hurts them but as thais who are taught to respect older people and their mentors(theoretically a dad represents both) they would never confront him with what he did. That's why she looked at you the way she did. Because she knows you are right but she would never admit it as it's totally against what she has been taught and believes in.

Therein stems the problem, in some/many cases, in relationships. Sadly enough.