Issue with landlady and moving out advice...

[ajarnpot]

I suggest asking her for help in moving out, mention that you noticed she has young strong looking relatives and you could really use some help. Get them to help remove ac blinds etc.

[CaptHaddock]

The landlord's expectation that the tenant is responsible for appliances that wear out is common here. Renting an apartment is seen as a transfer of property rather than the provision of services. Similar to renting a car from a rental company--the renter is responsible for damage, except that in the case of a car insurance is available at an additional price.

It's up to the tenant to negotiate the best terms possible. We were able to get a clause in our lease that the landlord is responsible to fix all the appliances in the apartment and we held him to it when the dryer died. I suspect that the landlord accepted our conditions because she had experience with foreigners.

And, of course, next time keep the original lease in a safe place and scan a copy to your computer for easy reference.

[jacko45k]

I would go with option 1.

When you rent something here, whatever happens to it is your responsibility.

The wall, well you chose to build it, she let you have the dogs.

Ceiling fans, you chose to put them in.

Samui is too small a place to create enemies.

[Tchooptip]

I wouldn't even give her any notice, just disappear in the night without paying the months rent, make sure you take everything with you you can and destroy anything that you created that you can't take with you....

Spoken like a true pikey.

+1

+ :Cheap advice/dire consequence

[crazykopite]

Take the lot with you it is yours not hers if she is not happy tell her you will bring in the tourist police all you have to do is show them your aircon receipt. Typical greedy Thai in a couple of months when the house is still empty she may regret what she did but that is her problem. you were lucky she did not put your rent up when you improved it or gave you notice to quit !!!!!!

[bristolgeoff]

one thing they is no deposit so you lucky.i would take what I brought and leave the air con,just in case she makes a problem.put money on that she would.so many cases everywhere you will lose a deposit over nothing.

she knows about the broken ac so I would not try to put that back saying you broke it.move to your new place and take pictures and make sure your paper work is good and enjoy the new house

[Tchooptip]

I live and work on Samui, I have a business here, so I am moving locally.

If I was moving away from Samui then I definitely wouldn't give her any notice and would take everything, including removing the wall, plus I wouldn't pay her the last months rent (I paid at the end of each month)

Anyway, I will do things properly, give her 30 days notice, invite her round and show her what I have bought and see if we can come to some sort of agreement, I'd actually be happy to leave the aircon if she'd agree to let me skip the rent at the end of the month, which is more than fair. Anyway, we'll see...

If things don't work, it could be quite unfortunate if one of my "friends" rented the place for a couple of months and stole everything when then they left... [evil grin]

If I was moving away from Samui then I definitely wouldn't give her any notice and would take everything, including removing the wall, plus I wouldn't pay her the last months rent (I paid at the end of each month)

Did not you said in post 15 you believe in Karma... sure?

[Alwyn]

It's none of my business and I'm not in your shoes. If it was me though I would probably leave the a/c (putting the place back as you took it includes a working a/c - even if it is normally the landlord's responsibility to ensure this stuff works), take your fans etc, ask her if she would like the wall to remain or not, give the place a good clean and jog on without having to worry about looking over your shoulder! It's only a poxy a/c unit after all and as soon as you go to a lawyer, her back will be up and you're in for confrontations you probably are not prepared for. Good luck in your new home!

[rhodie]

...

Anyway, I will do things properly, give her 30 days notice, invite her round and show her what I have bought and see if we can come to some sort of agreement, I'd actually be happy to leave the aircon if she'd agree to let me skip the rent at the end of the month, which is more than fair. Anyway, we'll see...

...

Best option. Just negotiate and see if you can get some compensation and everybody ends up happy.

[PoorSucker]

Do you need to leave Thailand at some point, for travel?

Remember the English guy that was taken to court for destroyed inventory in a rented house.

The court took his passport and he was unable to leave Thailand for three years.

Better talk to a lawyer first.

As said before Samui is a small Island.

[Moouan]

Angry Farang I think I know you, take some advice from someone who has been here many years and is also Jai Rawn by nature.

As my Thai wife points out to me when I start to heat up, you have a home, a business and a family here, you have everything to lose and (in your case) not much to gain ( a new AC and some blinds). Its just not worth it, these people can be petty and small-minded beyond your imagination and can ruin your life here.

Suck it up, turn the other cheek and walk away, I know it leaves a bad taste in the mouth, wash it out with a protein shake and move on.

Take anything that is yours that is not fitted leave the rest and forget it.

[SOTIRIOS]

I would just take anything I wanted to use, and leave anything I felt would just be trouble lugging out and then not using. The new air con would definitely be coming with me if I bought it though!

....in a sense, you did break it. though...it was working when you moved in...so take the new one, but have the old one repaired at least..

...the rest, whatever else you want and need, take with you...just leave the place in the same state you found it in...

....that way, you are losing nothing and she is losing nothing....forget lawyers and letters..

[mjj]

I've been in a similar situation with things bought for a rented house and I know how you feel about wanting to take everything. Which is exactly what I did apart from a few things I didn't want. I would suggest you do the same, but make sure you leave the house as you found it, so if you have made holes in the ceiling (fan) get them filled and painted. If you want your a/c take it and put her old one back in.

You know the sons and if they are of a mind to take things further, but I can't see them going after you for taking some of your own things. I know Thailand can be a funny kind of place, but it's not 'bandits at 4 o'clock' all the time.

[gvan]

LAWYER.....why should she benefit from trying to screw you?

[iamariva1957]

angryfarang,

Your third choice is the way I would go. Let someone else handle things for you.

But I do like your second choice however... put the old A/C unit back in and take the new one (you can always use it... right?). As for the other stuff.... it is just that... stuff. It is a pain in the ass to pack and move and hell, it might not be what you want in your new place.

Just my suggestion.

[trainman34014]

I personally can never understand how anyone can 'lose' important documents like rental agreements but hey, we are all different.

In my opinion the OP needs to get back to friendly terms with his Landlady by telling her about the new aircon he has had installed and not showing any dissent about it. Her stance will be, perhaps rightly so, that he has worn it out in 5 years so he should replace it. It's no good going on about how things in the West are different because we are not in the West. As for all the other improvements, well; they have been added for the comfort and pleasure of his own family and as we all know from past experience of renting in any country, if you want to spend money on someone else's property then you are improving their lot and not your own.

Walk away clean with a clear conscience and know you have done it right by your own standards, forget about hers.

[angryfarang]

Thanks again for all the feedback.

I will give her my 30 days notice on Jan 1st. Invite her over and ask if she wants the wall, blinds, aircon, etc. I'm sure something can be sorted out.

Either way, I will walk away and leave the stuff I put in the house. It makes sense.

[Forethat]

And don't be afraid! 99.99% of people are not going to kill or harm anyone.

So what you're saying is that there's a chance that OP will get killed over this?

[Sydebolle]

I've been around since 1985 and think I've seen quite a lot.

Do NOT assume common sense. Terminate the agreement three months ahead as you do not know what your written agreement refers to. Move out BEFORE your last day to avoid the BiB there who might intend to ransack you or to give you a hard time.
Leave the place intact and as functioning as when you started the deal.
You can - legally speaking - NOT remove fixtures like air conditions, built-in white goods (washing machines, dishwashers, dryers etc.).
What you can remove is - apart from all your personal belongings and unfitted furniture things which are detachable and were put in by you (curtains etc.).
This is Thailand and blood here is thicker than water. Forget the legal aspects, just walk away as stipulated above. It is not worth the hustle and some Thais are known to resort to interesting solutions; all of which are, albeit unfair and mostly illegal, but practiced daily. And above is all from actual experiences.

[Halion]

The terms of the contract may be key and you should do your best to obtain a copy. From what you have said you appear to be a text book tenant and it is common that the landlord will not replace items such as defunct aircons.

What you do is dependent on how you feel about the rampant intimidation that is perpetrated on foreigners in the rental market. It is true that the market in Thailand is rather different in attitude and responsibility to such markets back home however, without malice I would simply reinstall the defunct air con and remove blinds, fans and furniture providing that you can use them in your new abode. You are under no moral or legal obligation to provide your landlord with gratis upgrades. After 20 years in Thailand I have found that the key to the resolution of most problems is not to bow or bend to intimidation but also to ensure that you react without malice.

You rented the property as was, and as long as you return it in the same manner there should be no issue. If there is an issue which is outside the contract stipulations then they are simply trying to screw you. Tell them, Sorry but I'm out to lunch.

[Zappo]

Legally, you could face problems if you remove things that are attached to the land or the house, even if you bought it with your money. The only way to bring it with you is to move it out secretly and leave without notice. That is how thai people mostly do. Leaving without notice will also solve the "police friend" problem. Since you did not pay any deposit it will not cost you anything and I do not see why you should honor a contract that is obviously not honored by the landlord. You could get sued but very unlikely since that will cost the landlord more money than its worth.

When you rent a house or condo you pay an agreed upon rent every month for the standard and function of the house on the day your contract started. This means that if some machine is broken during your stay you have the right to claim a new one, not necessary new but functioning. That is what you pay for, unless the contract says otherwise. Thai landlords never reason like this and sometimes even want you to pay for leaking roofs, dead trees in the garden and so on. These claims MUST be written in the contract to be valid. Normally you do not pay for normal wear and tear or for construction faults that you did not cause.

If you lost your contract, the landlord must show her copy with your signature on it in original. If the landlord does not do that then a standard contract is valid, signed or not. Standard rental contracts can be bought in many office supplies shops.

You do have laws in Thailand and the protection for tenants is quite strong, believe it or not.

I urge you to leave this mess, any way you want, but quietly and invisible if possible.

[BORRISGOODENUF]

SEEMS YOU NOT DO YOUR HOME WORK ADEQUATELY FOR YOUR RENTAL OR THE ISSUE WITH AIRCON.

CIRCUIT POSSIBLY CAN BE REPAIRED/RECTIFIED, WHATEVER, OR, YOU COULD DO A SEARCH FOR A SECOND HAND A/C OR PART THERE OF REQUIRED INSTEAD OF REPLACING WHOLE UNIT. IF YOU LOOK AROUND AT THE A/C DEALERS YOU WILL SEE LOTS OF OLD STUFF IN THEIR STORES. GO TAKE A LOOK.

DON'T BE CONFRONTATIONAL WITH YOUR L/LADY, YOU WONT WIN AND YOU MAKE YOUR SELF VERY UNPOPULAR. GOOD LUCK.

[NeverSure]

Thanks again for all the feedback.

I will give her my 30 days notice on Jan 1st. Invite her over and ask if she wants the wall, blinds, aircon, etc. I'm sure something can be sorted out.

Either way, I will walk away and leave the stuff I put in the house. It makes sense.

It is many times easier to make enemies than it is to make or keep friends. Sometimes it is hard enough just to stay neutral with people.

I like this plan. Do it and you don't risk being sorry. Something small can easily turn into something big.

If you need to assuage your manly feelings haha, do it by reminding yourself that you were the good guy.

[realenglish1]

Go see a lawyer have him draw up a letter and you are not responsible for the air conditioning It is fanciful thinking on her part. Put in the old air and let her have that

You will spend 5000 or 6 thousand on a lawyer and money well spend She sees you as a stupid Farang Go to the lawyers

Stops her from making a real issue out of it

[ajarnmarc]

In most cases people do remove everything they added,

Thai or Foreigners.

When we do otherwise,

it leads the Thai's to think they can expect that in the future.

This is how the rental properties generally get updated...

not by the owners.

They are smart to keep their money in their greedy pockets.

I always remove my A/C units,

even though it does cost 5,000 bht for relocating the unit.

Window covers I'd leave,

as they most likely won't fit in the new location,

as well as they are fitted now.

Ceiling fan, it's probably on it's last life cycle anyway,

so I'd pass on relocating it and just get a new & improved unit.

Samui is small, I'm here as well, and it's my home too,

so no I wouldn't want any negative issues arising,

but we set the example for the Thai's to screw us over,

in everyway that they can.

In the end we only have ourselves to blame,

for how they treat us, positive or negatively.

I try to keep this in mind for the future foreigner that comes along.

I'd like to give notice when I move, but I had a friend do that,

and she locked him out two days before his notice date,

so assure herself that he wasn't taking anything she didn't approve of.

He had done awning work, guard rails for the patio ect.

She guessed what he wanted...which was the AC unit he brought,

and she wasn't having it.

In the end he left with just his clothes.

My water pump has gone out at my residence,

and the owner would like me to pay for that.

It wasn't new when I moved in,

and the cost to fix it is 4,000 bht.

So I'm opting to buy a new unit,

I know I won't have to pay again to fix,

but I'm certainly going to remove it when I vacate.

To make matters a bit worse,

the owner now knows my decision,

and she want's what?

The old pump, so she can pay to fix it,

and put it somewhere else.

So my view is, she's fine to pay for it,

as long as it benefits her,

but not me.

It's probably how it got here in the first place,

for it looks old.

I've lived in this house for 3 years already,

and she's never offered me any service in a form of gratitude for my business.

When I was in Hua Hin,

it was much different,

every additional year I stayed the owner would upgrade something to benefit me,

as his way of showing he wanted me to stay on.

I eventually had to move to a bigger place,

and when I moved in there, I brought my AC unit,

when I moved here, the owner offered to pay me to leave the unit there,

and provided me with a fair price as well.

I had no deposit on either houses I rented there.

So you see I was accustomed to what I consider good service...

as this would certainly be my approach if I were a renter.

But Thai's don't care if their property stays vacant for long periods of time.

They fail to see the lose of revenue IMO.

Though it's hard to imagine how they can't,

it certainly doesn't appear that they do.

Here is a different story.

The first house I stayed in,

they refused to refund my deposit,

even though I hired a lady to clean it,

and nothing was in need of repair.

Just didn't have the desire to refund the deposit.

I stayed there for 4 yrs,

and they had several units rented to foreigners.

In the end it was a workover all the way around.

I now enjoy Nathon,

and have more home for my money,

but again not the best arrangement for repairs.

The moral of the story is,

get the repairs agreed to in writing,

for when they come up,

and make sure you guard that written agreement safely.

Be cautious of the deposit,

for it most likely won't come back to you.

It's like a contract signing bonus to them here.

They leave smiling all the way to the nearest chicken fight. Lol

I will certainly make sure to do the same,

the next time around,

as I should of done this time,

but failed to have foresight at the time,

for they were offering to make new floor tiles for me,

and color I desired, stating they wanted me to be happy.

I declined the offer, not wanting several men in my space,

for who knows how long,

and several questions about how much everything I own cost. Lol

Don't regret that decision, but just took it at the time as she knew how to properly treat a tenant.

Now I see it was just the trick of the trade, to get me to let my guard down.

[robertson468]

In my opinion, the best advice here is from GuestHouse. Not only will you not be stressing about any subsequent consequences and looking over your shoulder all the time, especially when the police deploy their vehicle check points, but you will have the satisfaction that "the bitch" has her house returned in good order and that you have NOT joined the "league of bitches" yourself through some spiteful act. You can walk away with a clear conscience and your head held high. Next time make sure you get a Contract for the Lease. I rent out houses and in my Contracts it states clearly I am responsible for the maintenance of all fixtures and fittings in the house unless it can be proved that it has happened due to the negligence/deliberate act of the resident. I also say that resident's may make alterations to the house, but must first seek approval in writing from me. If at the end of the agreement I do not approve of what they have altered, they are responsible for returning it to the same condition as it was at the start of the agreement. Protect your own back and good luck in your new house.. As a little comfort blanket, there are some good Landlords on the Island, not many, but some .

[NBD]

To be fair I can sort of see her point. Presumably you've had use of that air con for 5 years, it broke and you replaced it. I would think lawyers fees would pretty soon negate the value of your air con unit which you will already have had a good few months use of by then.

Sell the old one, you'll get a few hundred baht even as scrap, take everything that is yours and keep good relations.

The fact that she can't screw you over for 2 or 3 months deposit already puts you ahead of most tennants.

[jeff2258]

Repercussions. Legal or fysical ?

Just leave the house in same state as has how you entered it years ago. Whatever you dont want to take is a bonus for her.

Easy IMO.

Yes, I agree to what you suggested. When you move in 5 years ago the aircond is in working condition and when you move out, you have to return in good condition too.With or without agreement the condition is always the same. I've been renting a few condos here before and when I moved out I pay 400 baht for cleaning and all fittings are in good condition. Do not create problems, you will never like what's coming.

[GAZZPA]

Best not to do anything vindictive, this is Thailand,, it means loss of face and potential consequences. I know this sounds a bit warm and cuddly but the best thing to do is give her a call, meet her and buy her some lunch. Tell her that you have bought a new aircon unit and that you are planning to leave some stuff,, then ask her politely if she will be willing to split the bill on the aircon unit. Try this kind of approach, I have found that people soften.

[Benmart]

Lots of good advice. Ultimately can you live without some of the items you installed/purchased? They are only material things and will they affect your life permanently if you leave them behind.

These types of landlord/tenant disagreements are not unique to Thailand. The decision, as i see it, is whether or not the additional "problems" you may encounter, if you take hard approach, are worth it.

This looks like a life learning experience and should come in handy as you navigate life on life's terms. Best of luck my friend.